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azren
Feb 14, 2011



:golfclap: is really all I can say. This was an incredible thread, and so much of a good time all the way through.

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Elissia
Dec 28, 2012

I like the Thing figure in the right of the wardrobe montage in the last video. It makes me think of a a tiny Ben Grimm raging about her choice of outfits and accessories.

chocolatekake
Jul 31, 2013

Cake? Chocolate.
Hey, this was the first thread I followed from start to finish, and I can safely say I made a good decision in that!

Thanks for making such an amazing thread and more importantly making an LP about something as important as "Girl Games." The whole thing resonates with me very strongly and I'm glad you were able to approach the topic with humor, but still make it intelligent and even educational.

I'm sad to see this end, but you made something really, really good here. So, very well done!

Quaternion Cat
Feb 19, 2011

Affeline Space
I... don't want to be a sourpuss or anything, but I'm genuinely surprised at how much praise this is getting. I mean, yes, it was absolutely fun in a bullshitting-over-bad-video-games kind of way, and a good thread, but the sheer terribleness of the messages we send to our children? I guess maybe it just feels like none of this ought to be news to anyone, considering that this is by no means the bottom of that barrel. Perhaps it's that the idea of having kids and what I would hope to teach them and shield them from is a thing I've been thinking about a lot recently, but, people only just learning about this now is actually a little terrifying, but maybe we're just at different positions in our lives.

I guess part of me also worries that, if girl games as a genre were not all so incredibly loathsome - a point all can agree on - would the message be as well received? If this LP has got you thinking, and you seek out more things like this (eg feminism), be empathetic and have and an open mind about the issues that people will tell you that they face, because they might not be so immediately understandable. A core issue with things like girl games is the monkeys they put on your back, the nagging thoughts before you take actions and the expectations that you feel other people have of you. The real lasting damage is from the insidious messages society leaves inside your head, mostly when you're young and vulnerable. These stay with you - even when you grow up and know better - they're still there, inside your head, reminding you before you speak up in the board room, or before you post in that application, even before you eat that chocolate bar. You can't really just brush feelings like that off of your shoulders.

Fiendly
May 27, 2010

That's not right!
I'm an asexual who rarely if ever objectifies women and I still found Devious Vacuum's recitation in the penultimate episode incredibly enlightening and valuable. Sure, it's not news to anyone that women are treated like objects on a daily basis, but presenting that fact and the psychology behind it in an stark and unsexy manner draws to attention how much of a problem this normal occurrence is and shows that it can be corrected, at least on a personal level in those who are made aware of it in just this sort of manner. Homophobia, racism, and misogyny are all the result of ignorance, and even the most severe sufferer of any of these things will learn that just because their beliefs are the most widely accepted in this place and time, they aren't right and they hurt people who are almost identical to them except in ways that they have blown way out of proportion in their minds, most of whom they'd actually like if they weren't so biased against them. It's just a matter of understanding and basic human empathy that can be instilled in anyone, and I don't think anyone here on the Something Awful Let's Play forum is too far gone that they can't be set on the right track with regard to their attitudes towards women and others unlike them, nor is anyone here so flawlessly enlightened that they can't stand to give serious critical thought to these subjects with regard to themselves and maybe think of ways they can improve their attitudes and those of others.

I strongly feel DVac's message is very useful and it has been inspiring to see it expressed here and now.

Makrond
Aug 8, 2009

Now that I have all the animes, I can finally
become Emperor of Japan!

Mastigophoran posted:

I... don't want to be a sourpuss or anything, but I'm genuinely surprised at how much praise this is getting. I mean, yes, it was absolutely fun in a bullshitting-over-bad-video-games kind of way, and a good thread, but the sheer terribleness of the messages we send to our children? I guess maybe it just feels like none of this ought to be news to anyone, considering that this is by no means the bottom of that barrel. Perhaps it's that the idea of having kids and what I would hope to teach them and shield them from is a thing I've been thinking about a lot recently, but, people only just learning about this now is actually a little terrifying, but maybe we're just at different positions in our lives.

I don't think it's so much a matter of people not being familiar with gender stereotypes and objectification and such. I think what gets the most "what the gently caress, I can't believe that" response is how deep patriarchy runs, how much it affects every aspect of how we think and what we expect. You're probably right that this shouldn't be news to anyone but even as someone who reads feminist discussions and literature when I'm not being the embodiment of privilege (which is 90% of the time :v:), I get pretty astounded by the messages we aim not just at women as a whole, but at children, out of some hosed-up expectation that they should conform to how we view the world. This is true even when the message isn't sexist or related to gender at all, but these examples are more noticeable in large part because they're happening constantly.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the fact that these messages exist isn't what's so deeply disturbing, at least not in and of itself, but the context in which they exist, and the fact that to some extent we expect women to conform to them, and to this end we force these messages on them at unbelievably early ages, ages where they will have a profound and potentially irreparably damaging effect on their entire lives. Even when you're aware of these messages and try to teach your kids that this isn't the way things have to be, they're so inundated with ideals, beliefs and values every second of their waking life, ideals they're expected to conform to - or worse, expected to make others conform to - there's just no conceivable way to shield them from the brunt of the impact.

shalcar
Oct 21, 2009

At my signal, DEAL WITH IT.
Taco Defender
It's also important to remember that a lot of the people on SA are male (probably 50%!) and these girl games are simply not things that a lot of them would ever have seen through the fact that they are not targeted. While I would have been able to tell you dress up games on specific sites catered to girls exist, I wouldn't have had the faintest idea of the sheer pervasiveness of the terrible messages that exist in almost all of them, nor of the fact there is almost no relation to gaming as a whole with respect to quality, genre, messaging or even being games.

There are many terrible messages in society towards women and minorities that I have no idea exist despite my 30 years on this planet and that has nothing to do with being naive or wilfully blind, but is purely that these messages exist in magazines I don't read, games I don't play, TV shows I don't watch, etc and I think it's crucial to making a better society that these repugnant things are brought to light so that we can take a stand that these messages are unacceptable. I think what D Vac has done is to shine a light into these dark corners and has done so in a way that brings more people into the conversation about these topics, which can only be a good thing.

Part of why we do Let's Play is to bring a game (or games) to other peoples attention, usually for entertainment, but sometimes for something more. I think D Vac has done that exceptionally well and I know I want to tell all my friends with little girls that they might be playing these horrible games and internalising these horrible messages, which I think is possibly the best outcome an LP can have. Thanks to this LP, a little girl somewhere might grow up with a little more confidence and a little more self worth than they would otherwise. Parents can't fight demons that they don't know exist, after all.

THE LESBIATHAN
Jan 22, 2011

The name Daria was already taken.
I've been trying to catch up on the thread, and I just got to the plus size dress up video; as a plus size girl myself, I am just confirming that all my accessories are food themed. You would not believe how hard it is to find food themed stuff!

Seriously though, this is a great thread.

ThatPazuzu
Sep 8, 2011

I'm so depressed, I can't even blink.

Icecream Jane posted:

I've been trying to catch up on the thread, and I just got to the plus size dress up video; as a plus size girl myself, I am just confirming that all my accessories are food themed. You would not believe how hard it is to find food themed stuff!

Seriously though, this is a great thread.

I bet you spent hours trying to cone up with a junk food-based username. Such is the plight of the plus sized girl. :smith:

Veloxyll
May 3, 2011

Fuck you say?!

For one last grand sidetopic:
Why wait until they're born to start forming their personality?
Though it also tied in to the 2nd or 3rd last LP update with the topless girl baby.

Basically though, the point I'm trying to make/wondering on is WHY do we have to gender things right from day 1. Boys and girls are practically interchangable until they're around 9 or 10.
Besides boys having an easier time peeing while standing, there isn't really a practical difference I can think of. They're roughly the same shape, they're as noisy and as likely to get up to mischief. They don't have boobs.
So why would it be okay to have a boy in his boxers only, but not a girl. Sure later in life she'll be expected to cover up, but 99% of the guys I've seen topless in public would be doing us all a favour if they put on a t-shirt.

Though the really weird (and worrying!) thing about debates on women's rights is that even when explicitly presented with detailed explanations of just how hosed up the things they're doing actually are, people keep doing it. Even when people are philosophy departments or whatever.

ThatPazuzu posted:

I bet you spent hours trying to cone up with a junk food-based username. Such is the plight of the plus sized girl. :smith:

No doubt the site wouldn't let her register until she did. It probably asked "please highlight the section(s) of your user name that relate to junk food."
(My gender is porpoise, so I didn't see that part of the signup forms)

Shady Amish Terror
Oct 11, 2007
I'm not Amish by choice. 8(

Veloxyll posted:

Though the really weird (and worrying!) thing about debates on women's rights is that even when explicitly presented with detailed explanations of just how hosed up the things they're doing actually are, people keep doing it. Even when people are philosophy departments or whatever.

The human brain is a surprisingly robust facsimile of a logic machine with a lot of socially-oriented rules, but it really shouldn't be surprising when people keep doing things even if presented with a logical reason not to, and, to be blunt and perhaps slightly pessimistic, patriarchy has worked out pretty well for probably at least a third of the population (mostly the type who don't give it much thought), so the motivation just may not be there, either. Similar statements could be made about just about any other form of bigotry or *ism.

Like so many problems, it's a systemic issue, and tends to self-perpetuate. It has roots in human psychology (and sometimes flawed human reasoning), and in an encrusted and fortified system of beliefs that have built up over centuries and spans the entire planet. For a lot of people, those beliefs are not going to change in a day or a year or even a decade, and for some people not ever. They'll print up literature about bio-truths and try to teach their children what's right and wrong for each gender to do, or whatever particular biases they might have, and it will probably never completely go away. The only thing one can really do is keep a steady spotlight on the issue, expose as many flaws and problems in the system as you can, and gradually, change peoples' minds. For a similar issue, look at racism, which is slowly starting to fade in many places, but it will probably never completely go away, and the only way you can prevent a resurgence in that sentiment is to keep hammering away at it anywhere you find it. Even when people no longer actively believe in troublesome ideas like those, the rituals and habits those ideas shaped remain, and will take longer still to change.

So, I wouldn't say it's necessarily 'worrying', just a little sad that that's just the way life tends to be; it can take a very long time to break bad habits, and when you're talking about bad habits built up over several lifetimes, reinforced repeatedly in public life, it could take a very, very long time. Keeping the issue visible and alive in public thought is one of the best ways to deal with it, which is part of what made this lp really excellent.

There's also the fact that it was funny as gently caress, because goddamn, these were some terrible-rear end 'games'.

THE LESBIATHAN
Jan 22, 2011

The name Daria was already taken.

ThatPazuzu posted:

I bet you spent hours trying to cone up with a junk food-based username. Such is the plight of the plus sized girl. :smith:

Oh my god, I didn't even realize my user name was junk food based! It is me, I am the stereotypical plus sized girl.

tlarn
Mar 1, 2013

You see,
God doesn't help little frogs.

He helps people like me.

Icecream Jane posted:

Oh my god, I didn't even realize my user name was junk food based! It is me, I am the stereotypical plus sized girl.

It's okay, it's just gelato. :unsmith:

SassyRobot
Jan 19, 2007

ANGRY WASHING duh-duh duh-duh duh-DUH!

Devious Vacuum posted:

Thanks everybody!!!!

It's not supposed to be Windex, it's toner :gonk:! Amazingly the last video was even more unnerving than the whole rock-chewing business. This is how serial killer see all people. Pick 'em up, do whatever and then discard. Creepy!

Thanks, DVac! We'll always have girl games (probably :( ). And carton dishwashers.

gegi
Aug 3, 2004
Butterfly Girl

Mastigophoran posted:

I guess part of me also worries that, if girl games as a genre were not all so incredibly loathsome - a point all can agree on

We can only 'all agree' on this point because we've decided that any game which isn't so incredibly loathsome isn't a girl game and doesn't count.

These games are terrible, and deserve to be called out for being terrible. Perhaps the safety tip for a parent here is to engage with your child and share things with him/her rather than turning him/her loose onto the wilds of the internet where you might find nothing but terrible flash games as your entertainment?

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Devious Vacuum
Oct 24, 2009

Girl Games!



And so the final update was posted on Good Friday, and thusly, after the thread layeth within the cave of Girl Games for three days, it ascended to the Goldmine, where it dwelleth forever more.

Amen.

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