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Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Magres posted:

I think I might try a no cloak (except for required plot reasons like Sunwall, Last Hope, and the Derth arena) Skeleton Cursed. Undead Cursed make the most sense to me, flavor wise. Question about skeles though - does their stat boost racial bump your base or effective stat (ie does it contribute towards the 60 cap on stats or not)

Skeleton Cursed are kind of confusing as far as the Cursed 'plot' is concerned, since in the Acorn quest it's said that you become Cursed as a result of being left to die by your caravan, but surviving. So when the last caravaneer is like 'we should have let you die!' you're just like 'uh, yeah, about that...'

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Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
If we're sticking with the general Afflicted theme, the Cursed basically being a serial killer Michael Myers psychotic and the Doomed being a creepy haunted-house Carrie thing, it should definitely go down as something like the Strangler. PS. this sounds like the best thing

It's a shame that Vanguard class that was being developed a while back stopped being developed. The incentive not to just jump on the Fungus train ASAP since you're Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger while nearly dead was pretty novel and fun.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Magres posted:

Wrassler
Luchador


Actually, in seriousness - Hellborn. People who have some Demonic blood in them that, somehow, became awakened and has significantly warped them. Through their fel, demonic strength they rend their enemies limb from limb.

Ehh, I always find that whole DEMON BLOOD thing kind of overplayed in a lot of fantasy RPGs. It's what I really like about the Afflicted classes - there's not any magic or demons involved at all in these guys, their supernatural abilities are the result of uncontrolled mental power. They push their bodies and minds beyond mundane limits by hating hard enough.

quote:

Doomed question - honestly, when do these guys get good? Shadows and Darkness both seem really... lackluster, but are both apparently semi-required. The main Darkness spell just doesn't spread or provide actual good coverage, and it's really frustrating when I drop it and have the RNG drop all of my darkness clouds off to the sides, loving me over. Like, the class seems kinda bad.

What part of the game / level are you having trouble with?

Darkness isn't to be worried about til you've got your main offensive powers maxed. You only start needing it when killing dudes fast stops being good enough to avoid damage, and if you're focusing on Reproach/Hateful Whisper/Blast then nothing should be touching you til around the Daikara. The trick is to keep yourself out of open spaces - Dropping Creeping Darkness in a corridor or cramped room turns it into your personal Hatescape, where anyone stupid enough to follow you gets a nasty DoT and any damage you do to them is massively increased. You're right that using it in a large room is basically pointless for blocking LoS, but remember with Dark Vision you can get a 300% movespeed boost on darkened tiles so you can hopscotch to safety in a pinch.

Zeerust fucked around with this message at 11:28 on Jan 31, 2014

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

psy_wombats posted:

I finished up the talents etc for cursed/puncher. Now just to balance and bugcheck everything! (I'm new at this so it could still be a while) There were a few weird things when trying to piece together the class though... Leaving Techniques/Grappling unaltered but having a grapple-based class doesn't really work because grappling is L10+. So instead of being grapple-based, the class just has a grappling option with an added, more synergistic tree. And combo points had to be shoehorned in because the tree that gives Unarmed Mastery has some random combo point skill at the end.

Grappling isn't a level 10 tree, though, it's just locked for a starting Brawler. I mean, that said I think you could do better than the grappling tree anyway - there's a reason it doesn't get used ever.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

dis astranagant posted:

If I were to rework grapple I'd make size differences into a modifier on damage/physpower/duration rather than completely shutting you down for being too small to grab on to the dragon. Nasty hobbitses still wouldn't want to chokeslam people but at least they'd have the option.

Personally, I think size modifiers should work in your favour. Bigger enemies make better meatshields and have more mass to throw around. A hobbit chokeslamming and grappling the poo poo out of trolls and wyrms like a tiny Randy Savage is something we shouldn't be denied!

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
So I've been fiddling around with a Cornac Haunted. It's a lot of fun to grab dudes and rip them apart while putting the whammy on them with my crazy-eyes. I've just got a few points of feedback-

- I'm finding I'm running out of stamina constantly, at least at early levels. Furious Assault gives me stamina back if I kill something with it, but the gain isn't much compared with the stamina cost of the talent. I think there's a couple of ways of increasing the stamina income - you could establish a more symbiotic link between the Haunted's Stamina and Hate by having each strike in Furious Assault restore stamina.

- As you said yourself, adding a means of increasing your size factor without relying on gear would be helpful. I got my face handed back to me by Norgos The Frozen when I couldn't do much but punch him, especially combined with the previous problem of running out of stamina for Deathblows.

- the Mania tree overall is a little strange. The first talent doesn't do much for you outside of letting you use massive armour, which is awesome, but decreasing fatigue isn't really incredible. The second talent reminds me of Bloodthirst in a good way, but I think it could benefit from a bit of a buff, since the global speed buff seems to be static. How about having it provide a bonus to Phys Power and movespeed, which stacks as before and scales with Strength? The third and fourth are just a little weird. Grapplers are kind of bad at building up combo points anyway, since they don't get multi-hit talents barring Deathblows. I would think that if you want to include combo points as a system for the class - to be fair, you could probably just give Mania a mastery equivalent talent and drop Unarmed Training altogether - it would be better to put a combo-building talent earlier in the tree and provide more of an incentive to accrue them.

Oh yeah, and a bug report- I'm still not seeing any Hate gain from Clinching enemies.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Angry Diplomat posted:

You'll get the hang of it, trust me. After a while you'll die to Prox so rarely that, when you do, it makes you stop and seriously wonder what you did wrong (like when I died to him three times consecutively trying to get a Haunted off the ground. PS Haunted is awesome but the first handful of levels are loving wretched to an even greater extent than Brawler). Keep at it, and it'll "click" before too long.

e: I just picked up Spit Poison on a Haunted and holy heck. I can grab people, crazy-eyes them, barf on them, and then hurl them away to stagger around confused and poisoned while I close in for another deadly chokeslam. I really really like this class! It feels a little underpowered and really bad at dealing with groups (at least in the early game), but aside from that, it's quite fun and unique to play.

e2: Okay yeah I just crazyported to a summoner rare and started choking him, and when he summoned a turtle I screamed gently caress OFF and threw it across the room and went back to choking the summoner out. Class owns

Have you seen the 1.21 update on the Addons page? I've been stalking the page for updates and picked up 1.2 and the changes to Mania make the class amazing for trucking jokers and ripping fools heads off. The synergy between Stamina and Hate is really interesting, now, and I'm just trying to build up the right talents to start sustaining Spurred by The Voices so I can laugh at all my Warmaker crits putting my speed through the roof.

I'm sitting at the post-tier 2 part of the game at level 22, having just picked up Antimagic, and my only deaths have been due to massive stupidity re: Snow Giant boulder throwers. I'm kind of dreading the Dark Crypt just due to my low mobility - the only movement options I have are my crazyport, the range-4 grapple rush and my Move infusion, but there's also going to be a great deal of cackling when I manage to catch and choke out lone elves. KILL ALL NERDS

E: Oh yeah, in terms of Hauntedchat, this might've been fixed already in 1.21 but grappling doesn't seem to Attune enemies. Also, I think it might be fairer if the last Mindgazer talent was a passive, since sustaining a massive hate-sink talent for a chance of inflicting a worse effect isn't very enticing.

E2: The generic side of things is a little anemic on Haunted so I was about to say you could give them Thuggery which would be very thematically fitting, but then I remembered Thuggery gives you Riot-Born which I imagine would stack with Relentless to make you literally immune to stunning :v: maybe Throws could be a generic tree? I'm finding class points are pretty thinly spread, otherwise.

Zeerust fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Feb 7, 2014

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
Hauntedchat 2 Savage Boogaloo: After my ignoble death at the hands of a Worm That Walks I've started a new Haunted with 1.21 and I'm not sure if it was working in 1.2 but the Hate/Stamina gain from Psychic Leech seems to be broken, in addition to grapples not Attuning enemies.

Honestly, I think Sustained By The Voices is such a good idea it should just be the level 1 talent and form a cornerstone of the class. It's a really original mechanic for an Afflicted class and makes resource management into an interesting metagame, since it encourages you to use Mindgazer talents and Hate-draining sustains to shore up your Stamina to use your ripping-dudes-apart talents. You could just have Stare have a secondary Hate-generating effect to compensate, either similiar to the Doomed's Feed or maybe based on taking damage, as Attuned enemies hear the echoes of your voices when they strike at you.

E:

A Meat posted:

Fractured

A psionic class that balances between PSI and Hate would be really interesting! At worst it'd be kind of like an Anorithil, where your defence and your offence are tied into different resource bars and you play a see-saw game depending on what you need at the time. I think it could be a lot more interesting than that with a bit of thought, though, considering Anorithils themselves are kind of boring. :v:

Zeerust fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Feb 7, 2014

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

psy_wombats posted:

Haunted stuff:
Grappling: yeah honestly on my runthrough with Protohaunted I left it at 2/1 until after Dreadfell. I figured people would go at least 1/1/1/1 for the small rush at the end, but even if you're grappling all the time investing in the tree isn't required, it seems. Hopefully by moving a tree (either Throws or Mindgazer over) the problem would be mitigated a bit because less places to spend points.

I thought about other unlockable trees but not much seemed to fit. Mobility on an immobile class, Scoundrel's got some weird insta-rush that doesn't break stealth, Riot-born and Conditioning have even /more/ status immunities. Moving throws seems like it would solve early game problems that seem to be going on. I'm glad it's fun anyway!

As for the bugs, I'm not sure what's going on there. I very thoroughly tested Psychic Link and the grapple/attune thing before I pushed so I guess I must be doing something bad in superloading that's causing it to not play nice with other addons or something. I'm running 1.1.5, that should be the same, right? Next release I'll leave in some logs to see what's going on. And actually push it to Steam if I can figure out why I keep getting errors on that too, ugh.

I think it basically boils down to what Kanos said: Grappling on the whole is a great internally-synergising single-target shutdown tree but you can't really afford to focus on it because of how absurdly specialised it is compared to investing in the talents that give you great debuffs and spike damage. I think you're definitely handling it right so far, though, making a lot of the talents synergise with grabs so you can put more of a hurt on the enemy you're focusing on without losing any effectiveness against non-grabbed targets. It really just boils down to ToME's five-point talent system.

If there was a way to fix it I guess it would be to design a unique Grapplesque tree that condenses the useful Grappling stuff down to a couple of talents and offers a bit more versatility. It's not like Grappling stance offers anything except a miniscule, diminishing-returns Phys Save/Power bonus anyway, and it'd probably be easier to code additional effects, since it seems like Clinch really doesn't like to add your debuffs.

Considering literally the only talent in Unarmed Training a Haunted desperately needs is Unarmed Mastery it almost seems like it'd be worth just incorporating the unarmed power bonus into a Mania talent. Also, one thing I keep forgetting to bring up is the current Haunted stat bonuses. Right now it's +3 Str/Cun and +1 Dex/Wil. Since the Haunted doesn't use those last two anymore and most classes seem to have a total bonus of +9 I think something like +5 Str/+4 Cun would be more suitable, similiar to the Cursed +5 Str/+4 Wil.

Zeerust fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Feb 8, 2014

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Personally, I think Hate is a pretty well-implemented resource in terms of the kind of player behaviour it encourages. Having a resource that constantly decays, decays faster the more of it you have and can only be increased by fighting enemies means you have to maintain momentum instead of stopping to rest, especially since as your Hate decays your healing is impaired. Having it decay faster as it gets lower would just cause problems in that hitting low Hate would put you in a death spiral, rather than how it currently works where you're guaranteed a certain threshold so you have something to spend to gain more, and have an incentive to work harder to keep it topped out.

Whether or not it makes sense thematically is more up to personal taste, really. I think it makes perfect sense that you have to work to maintain your hateful fury, and resting completely goes against the concept of classes like the Cursed, where multiple talent trees are predicated around 'you're a remorseless spree killer that cannot ever stop for rest or comfort'.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
The funny thing is, I don't really disagree with you, but I don't think that makes Hate a necessarily pointless resource. It doesn't work in the same way Stamina or Mana works, but I don't think it's supposed to. Hate decays down to a middle-ground threshold where if you're Cursed your attack talents operate at a fairly low effectiveness and if you're Doomed you're maybe a couple of nukes away from bottoming out your Hate (considering the main Doomed nukes use upwards of 20 Hate this is a credible issue throughout the game, as your max Hate never increases), and as you fight your Hate builds up due to the positive feedback loop of killing and taking large hits granting more Hate, at which point you can actually let loose and start using all your big hits and nukes. It's about maintaining your killing spree so you can maximise the effectiveness of your talents as well as keeping your healing up.

Hate is largely a passive resource in that it kind of manages itself beyond a certain point, but I don't think that's really a bad thing - it's just a different way of handling things, and I find it a lot more fun than, say, Stamina. I still like the psychological element of it, as well, as having a resource that constantly ticks down and can't be restored at rest creates a certain air of pressure for the player, regardless of how easy it is to build back up when you actually get into a scrap.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
So, if you take the Eye of the Tiger prodigy, is the proc triggered by crits on Resolve and Antimagic Shield?

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

notwithoutmyanus posted:

What about brawler double strike plus arcane combat with earthen missiles?

If you pick up the Nullpack class addon, the Fossil class is exactly this. Accessible only to Skeletons, comes with the standard Pugilism/Unarmed Training package, but with Earth, Stone and Arcane Combat, and Aegis in generics. Yes, it is hilarious.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

DeathSandwich posted:

So does someone want to give me a primer on mindslayers? I played around with it a bit and I don't know how I should be looking to build one. Is it worthwhile to go to zigur and get psiblade training so I can both melee and shoot mind bullets decently at the same time? The class has a whole shitpile of sustain abilities, how should I know which ones to keep on at any given time?

Mindslayers have access to some incredible talents, but they're incredibly point-intensive to the point where the 'best' Mindslayer build is more or less the only Mindslayer build; they're inflexible and fragile, but incredibly powerful.

Rule Number One of a current-release Mindslayer is: save up 500g for Mindstar Mastery. It forms the cornerstone of the 'Slayer's power as a class, since many of your talents scale from Mindpower and the tier of Mindstar in your TK slot. It used to be that you had to make a choice between being good at bump damage or having the Mindstar boosts, but with the advent of Zigur's training programme you can have your cake and eat it, too - Reshape Weapon, Mental Tyranny and Superpower give you mind-boggling damage.

Your best early investments are in Mindlash, Augmentation and as many spare points as you can get into your Absorption shields. Mindlash is a good mid-range nuke that softens dudes up, but watch out for the debuff draining all your PSI. Get Conduit and two auras by level 8, and max out Absorption Mastery as soon as you can. Ignore the other three Focus talents until you're in the mid-to-late game, when you've got a tier-4 or better Mindstar to reap the rewards of Focused Channeling and Reach. Float generic points in Weapon Accuracy and Weapon Mastery and use conventional weapons until you get Mindstar Mastery. Get Reshape Weapon ASAP, then max it out and use it on your Mindstars. Congratulations, you're now the Psi-Blender.

Keep two shields active at all times depending on what kind of enemies are prevalent. Spike your shields at the first sign of trouble, it is very easy to get wiped out fast with your terrible HP. You're best off leaving your auras conduited, rather than active. You generally don't have to worry about touching Str - just get Augmentation maxed and focus on Wil and Con, with enough Cun to unlock talents. Take points in Armour Training as and when your augmented strength allows and make sure to get that sweet ~50% stun immunity from Iron Will. Get Superpower at level 30 if you have the Str for it, or Mental Tyranny if you can't or have a good source of Mind damage.

You're pretty category-intensive, since the best Mindslayer talents are buried in mediocre level 10 trees. Finer Energy Manipulation is a no-brainer for the reshaping talents. Augmented Mobility gives you Telekinetic Leap and Mindhook, the latter of which is actually very useful for pulling enemies out of their pals' LoS. Grip gives you a couple of debuffs and a boost to your TK weapon's stat scaling, which I've never bothered with because you don't get enough class points to take advantage of it. Antimagic and Fungus are both great boosts to Mindslayer survivability and your best gear isn't arcane-powered anyway, so there's not much of a tradeoff.

I... think that's everything. Did I miss anything?

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

DeathSandwich posted:

So who wants to give me a primer on Doomed? It sounds interesting to be a hatewizard, but their damage skills all look kind of anemic and they somehow manage to be more generic point hungry than cursed. Shadows at least in the early game seem super piss weak and serve as 1 turn distractions. When does the class take off and what sort of skill loadouts am I looking at?

Their damage skills aren't up to much at low talent levels compared with some classes and really need to be 5/5'd to be useful, but as your high crit rate / multiplier increase you'll start to make up the difference and then some. Generally, a good approach is to get Reproach, Hateful Whisper and Blast maxed ASAP, then getting Dark Torrent for a beam attack. The four talents together form a murder-toolbox that will serve you in most situations. That done, you want to get points into Deflection and Creeping Darkness/Dark vision. This serves two purposes; one, it can be used to escape enemies in more confined spaces thanks to blocking LOS and giving you a speed boost, and two, you get a large damage bonus to anything standing in your Creeping Darkness.

Doomed don't actually require much generic investment at all. All the Feed skills are one-pointers, even the first one, and the only Gestures talents you need to even consider raising are Gesture of Power and Gesture of Guarding. This makes them amongst the best candidates for Antimagic you can have. Their Mindpower is so high that Antimagic Shield and Silence are both fantastic additions to your offense and defence.

Shadows can really be ignored til the late game. They are hideously deadly if you actually focus on investing points in them every level from and can rip bosses to shreds in moments when they converge, but you yourself will be near-defenceless. Doomed have few enough class talent trees that you will have points spare past a certain point, so you can start building them up once you're good at murder yourself.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
Is Precise Strikes worth investing in as a Berserker? Accuracy doesn't seem like too much of an issue if you're using Berserk and keeping Weapon Accuracy topped up, but the crit chance scaling from Dex tells me it might not actually do that much, even at higher talent levels.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

NachtSieger posted:

THW+Archery: No, what the gently caress? You do shield and weapon not two hander.

This is my main niggle with the Bulwark and Berserker - they have unlockable trees that are not only completely pointless for the class, but homogenise them.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Melum posted:

Any advice for my Mindslayer? I've tried making a few of them but this is the only one that's gone anywhere. Currently exploring a far portal in hopes of getting some more xp/gear before I save Melinda.

http://te4.org/characters/9581/tome/41b25a33-7e27-4759-8047-a34a2ec79a7a

Invest in Shield Discipline and Iron Will, the former will make your shields even better and the latter gives you that all-important stun resist. Apart from that, talent-wise you're more or less exactly where I would expect to be in your position.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Dirk the Average posted:

Why not remove mastery entirely? Are weapon users so overpowered that they need to be penalized 5 or more generic points over pure casters?

Exactly this. Personally, I think the entire Combat Training tree should be removed altogether, and the bonuses incorporated into the base stats of weapons and armour, or at least into your stat scaling. The tree as a whole is just a massive pointsink for melee characters and doesn't really add anything to the game at all. At the most, there could be a heavy/massive armour tree to complement Mobility.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
I'd say it'd probably be better to replace the Mastery talents with better stat scaling/base accuracy for weapons, or increase the Accuracy gain from Dexterity - which would also make Perfect Strike more attractive to melee classes. You could incorporate the Armour Training bonuses into the base stats of heavy/massive armours without really affecting the game balance, since those armours have stat requirements for use anyway, so the only classes that really spec Strength enough to wear them are those that have to take Armour Training as a point tax for 'being a melee character'.

Personally, I would say that the Thick Skin bonuses could just be incorporated into a reworked Conditioning tree, that could be bought and trained by any character in lieu of Combat Training. Get rid of Intimidating Presence and shuffle Unrelenting Resolve to level 4, put Adrenaline Surge at level 8 and Thick Skin at level 12. Other posters are right that it's a loving boring talent, though.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Klaus Kinski posted:

-Jesus christ, put at least one point per level into con. HP is good, and HP+thick skin is even better. You really don't need to boost your mag/str/dex/cun over what you need to level skills before going to the east.

This is always a reliable tactic, but personally I've never followed it unless the class in question only has one prime stat. I tend to split my points between the two prime stats to unlock new talents until I get to about 36 in the stat, at which point i double back and start focusing on CON. Usually, this works out as you don't have to worry about big damage spikes until you're into Tier 2.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
If you're fast enough, you can get the Arena event even if Derth is under attack - the only reason you lose it is because the dude gets murdered by gwelgoroths. One time I was lucky enough to get to him before he got zapped, have a pleasant conversation about bloodsports, go to the arena and kill some dudes, then come back and save the village.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Kanos posted:

Brawler rares are so loving real now that I'm more scared of them than most casters. I had a level 25 multi-hued hatchling brawler axe kick me for 800 damage in ruined dungeon.

I get the feeling you could wreak some unruly poo poo with an Adventurer leveraging a mix of Brawler talents and the new Mindslayer stuff.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
Do Doombringers get enough Spellpower/Vim to benefit from Flames of Urh'Rohk? I assume I probably don't want to get it until I'm at mid-level.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Dodge Charms posted:

I like the idea of challenge classes, just like... don't make them the default starting classes which everyone has to play to unlock the "good stuff".

It'd be cool if you started out with the strongest classes, then unlocked the harder ones as you demonstrated greater mastery of the game.

I think the balance passes have done a lot of good for the 'core' classes. Most of them are geared for simple-but-effective tactics. Ideally the core unlocked classes would all be pretty powerful and straightforward to play, with locked classes offering a more complex range of options, making them more satisfying to use for experienced players. Not necessarily harder as such, but harder to master, and therefore more rewarding.

The Doombringer is a good addition to the starting roster for that reason, really; it's a very straightforward DPR class that explodes everything, but doesn't have much in the way of defensive talents. Once it gets toned down a little bit it'll form a very nice roster along with the other starting melee classes, since none of them are as offensively focused.

EDIT: The Arcane Blade is kind of an exception from this though, since it is totally unintuitive to a starting player.

Zeerust fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Nov 9, 2014

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
So, how do I get out of the Hallowed Fields? My Rod of Recall doesn't work, and I can't find an exit on-foot :saddowns:

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Grimoire posted:

loving. Sweet. My weird rear end wood fungus elf dragonmans with a trident will ride again.

I do kind of wish the weird chimerism of the Wyrmic was played up a bit more instead of the drake powers just being supernaturally manifested.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Therion posted:

(pro tip: don't pick cornac, rampage at level one isn't worth losing the racials, and your unlockable trees aren't that good anyway).

I'd say this is very much according to taste, personally. All of my Cursed wins have been Cornacs, and I've found Rampage is a good crutch in the early levels. Also, not having a racial tree means you can invest more in Antimagic and Fungus.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Dairy Power posted:

Cursed + Doomed [...]

Most of my wins are Cursed/Doomed and I literally wrote the book on Doomed (:v:) so seeing them tightened up and made a bit more on-par with the other classes would be amazing. IMO:

Doomed need more early-game nukes and a buff to the existing ones, really. Reproach is good but it has the absolutely needless drawback of diluting damage across multiple opponents. It's already short-range and mid-low damage, why punish it further?

Seconding Dark Torrent available as a level 1 talent. at talent level 5+ it can always leave a line of dark tiles. Put Dark Tendrils at level 4 and make the projectile move waaaay faster. Creeping Darkness should guarantee the AOE be blanketed in darkness tiles, right now it's a serious gamble if you're in a wide-open space. The Dark Vision bonuses can be incorporated into the talent-buy bonuses you get. Maybe Dark Torrent gives you the basic beam, Talent 2 gives you the LOS bonus, Talent 3 gives +speed and Talent 4 gives +damage?

I literally have no idea how you could fix Shadows. :v:

Cursed Form is interesting, but sadly flawed. Unnatural Body could do much better than awarding a fraction of HP back when you get a kill - maybe it could offer damage reduction, stat bonuses? Relentless is a good talent but a little boring, and the other two are just seriously meh.

There's a lot more I could say but I think most of it has already been covered. The classes just need to be made more cohesive, given more consistent talents and benefits and just generally powered up a little. Both classes are amazing if they can get the momentum but they just don't match up to some of the recent changes.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
Personally I think the Gloom talents work great on Cursed, since they're just a passive debuff/damage mitigation field that works the same even when you're out of your face on rage juice.

Darkness could be a more integral feature of the class if it were made a bit more reliable. The first two talents could be Creeping Darkness and Dark Torrent, but the former could be a personal AoE that blacks out tiles in a radius around you. The Dark Vision benefits could just passively apply as either part of levelling up Creeping Darkness or just scale off your stats.

I think for damage mitigation Deflection just needs a buff. Right now it's a flat 50% damage reduction up to a certain amount, after which the shield needs to recharge off of a piddling Hate drain. Would it possibly be more interesting if it worked like the Sun Paladin talent, where it's a damage battery that siphons off damage and then explodes?

Zeerust fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Dec 7, 2014

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
Decided to try the new Wyrmic, had a lot of fun with it with the talent changes / rebalancing. Had some problems with possibly spreading myself too thin, though, with the level 1 talents now granting passive bonuses. Has anyone else played enough 1.3 Wyrmic to have any advice on building an effective one?

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
I'm sure I'm doing something wrong with my Oozemancers, I'm trying to get into Nightmare and I keep dying before getting to the tier 2 dungeons. Anyone got advice on building one? I just seem absurdly squishy.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

They're actually incredibly survivable, but not in the same way that an arcane spellcaster hiding behind layers upon layers of shields would be. Use your oozes; they distract targets, they take some of your damage for you, and you can reabsorb them for a huge temporary bonus to resist all.

So should I focus on maxing out my Bloated Oozes before I start getting properly into Mucus? I beat the game on Normal with one before they got hit with the nerf stick. Seems like Call of The Ooze is a majorly useful talent on account of bringing your ooze defences into play instantly. They've got so many absurdly good level 12 talents as well!

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
Isn't part of the point of the new Mindslayer that you can specialise in dealing a single type of damage, though? I've kind of given up on Nightmare so I never tried it there, but I had good fun on Normal with a melee MS focused entirely on physical damage.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
The starter classes have been improved quite a bit iirc, especially Berserkers. If you've got the DLC you can start a Doombringer, which is extremely easy outside of their unique starting area.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
I got back into this after a long break and I'm having hella fun with Embers of Rage. Does anyone have advice on building a successful Psyshot? The triple stat dependency is throwing me off a little, I've been going 2 points to Dex/ 1 to Cun for my early levels then going all-in on Willpower once those two stats are high enough to get level 12 talents, but I feel incredibly fragile.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Electoral Surgery posted:

Shadows doomed is pretty good if you can survive long enough to get it running. Maybe not that fun though, enemies die before you get in range for your own abilities.

The two Shadow level 10 trees that were introduced thankfully make it a much more active deal that it used to be. You can pull all kinds of sick stunts from swapping places with your shadows or just smashing them into things and doing 1800 damage.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
I honestly think Berserkers are a good class for learning the game. They're extremely durable, don't have any complicated stat reliance, and their skillset is straightforward and reliably strong, with a handful of active skills that give you a lot for low investment. They're not as flexible as a lot of the other classes, so you get a lot out of using inscriptions and tools.

They do get boring when you're used to the tactical maelstrom of classes like Paradox Mages, but they're incredibly solid.

Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.
Are there any good resources to get into modding TOME? I'm not sure what kind of programs I need to be using to start cracking open the meat and getting at the insides, and the wiki isn't providing much help.

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Zeerust
May 1, 2008

They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

HenryEx posted:

A text editor, a ZIP program (.teae, .team, .teaa and all those files are just renamed zip files) to take a peek at the game's files, and a google'd bookmark of the LUA language documentation of your choice. In the \TalesMajEyal\game\modules folder is an example module that you can take a look at. Open the LUA files with your text editor and mod away.

Thanks for the heads up! Got my feet wet finding the file for the Demonologist and fixing some of the grammar / spelling mistakes :v:

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