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Komet posted:The problems that plague American universities plague all universities. The main problem with American public universities (i.e., the big ones in terms of football) is that the states have reduced the percentage of funding that it covers per student by about 50%.
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Jan 29, 2014 02:29
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Sash! posted:I loathe unions, but if this gets us closer to the NCFL, I'll back it like FDR showering Stalin with weapons.
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Jan 29, 2014 02:36
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Honestly, NCAA players should just shut up and stop pretending like their $120,000 full ride scholarships don't mean poo poo. Most of these guys would be in backwoods Alabama pumping gas if it wasn't for colleges offering athletic scholarships.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:27
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Toymachine posted:Honestly, NCAA players should just shut up and stop pretending like their $120,000 full ride scholarships don't mean poo poo. Most of these guys would be in backwoods Alabama pumping gas if it wasn't for colleges offering athletic scholarships. But they're not in backwoods Alabama, they're making millions of dollars for the people running the business of college athletics on their backs.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:29
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Toymachine posted:Honestly, NCAA players should just shut up and stop pretending like their $120,000 full ride scholarships don't mean poo poo. Most of these guys would be in backwoods Alabama pumping gas if it wasn't for colleges offering athletic scholarships. The biggest benefit of those scholarships could be replicated just as easily if an actual minor league for football existed.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:30
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YES! Anything that kills the NCAA or forces major changes to the current American university system is a net positive. Northwestern just became my favorite Big Ten team.Komet posted:The problems that plague American universities plague all universities. They have a similarly exploitative student athlete system in other countries? A massive student loan bubble? Rankings obsessed institutions which use new construction to make up for their educational shortcomings? A culture which pushes university education as the only solution to unemployment while denigrating vocational schools? Ever decreasing amounts of public funding for higher education? Educational loans which can never be cleared for anything including bankruptcy?
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Jan 29, 2014 03:31
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Relentlessboredomm posted:YES! Anything that kills the NCAA or forces major changes to the current American university system is a net positive. Northwestern just became my favorite Big Ten team. To be fair to Komet, "foreign" to him is anything outside of Pennsylvania's borders.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:32
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wheez the roux posted:To be fair to Komet, "foreign" to him is anything outside of Pennsylvania's borders. It's a strange wild land out there wheez. It's filled with people who don't love Penn State. Aye, it's a strange barbaric land. Why, they even think Joe Pa should be blamed for that unfortunate incident with the children. Toymachine posted:Honestly, NCAA players should just shut up and stop pretending like their $120,000 full ride scholarships don't mean poo poo. Most of these guys would be in backwoods Alabama pumping gas if it wasn't for colleges offering athletic scholarships. Maybe you and the NCAA should stop pretending that a scholarship, which can be revoked in the event of injury or poor performance, means everything when they're making millions off of the athletes. Relentlessboredomm fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 03:35
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I think the "student-"athletes should get comped, but I have seen a viable argument as to why that shouldn't happen. What I think is complete bullshit is that the players can't use their own likeness to do promotions and other things. Make it so they can't wear school attire or logos. But poo poo if they want to sell some signatures then by all means they should be able to.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:47
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Dexo posted:I think the "student-"athletes should get comped, but I have seen a viable argument as to why that shouldn't happen. Agreed, but keep in mind that only supports the very best players that are highly marketable, and still leaves most in the same situation they're in now. Unfortunately the alternative seems to be a system where colleges can just buy the best players and competition just goes down the drain, since only a few football programs actually operate at a profit (and I mean a very few). There's no simple answer to this. I really do think that the players should get something considering they are propping up a huge cash cow, but HOW to do it is a really difficult question.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:59
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wheez the roux posted:To be fair to Komet, "foreign" to him is anything outside of Pennsylvania's borders. You know he's not even from Pennsylvania? And doesn't live there?
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Jan 29, 2014 04:21
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Toymachine posted:Honestly, NCAA players should just shut up and stop pretending like their $120,000 full ride scholarships don't mean poo poo. Most of these guys would be in backwoods Alabama pumping gas if it wasn't for colleges offering athletic scholarships. If you don't source your quotes we are all just going to assume you're actually the one posting it.
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Jan 29, 2014 04:32
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Sash! posted:You know he's not even from Pennsylvania? And doesn't live there? Yeah, Penn State grads all live in DC
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Jan 29, 2014 04:46
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Declan MacManus posted:Yeah, Penn State grads all live in DC They do and I want them all to leave
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Jan 29, 2014 04:49
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This is really exciting, as the end of the NCAA as we know it would definitely make college football better and not ultimately kill the sport, no siree...
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Jan 29, 2014 05:35
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:They do and I want them all to leave I was born in Alexandria, I was here first 
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Jan 29, 2014 05:37
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Frackie Robinson posted:This is really exciting, as the end of the NCAA as we know it would definitely make college football better and not ultimately kill the sport, no siree... Yeah, moms and dads will magically decide their babies shouldn't play this game anymore once the integrity is gone and they start making actual money doing it. I can hear the parents from Friday Night Tykes now, "A&M is gonna pay you $15,000* a year while you're also a student? Not in my household, boy. Get to studyin and quit dreamin." *number entirely made up
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Jan 29, 2014 05:40
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Chichevache posted:Yeah, moms and dads will magically decide their babies shouldn't play this game anymore once the integrity is gone and they start making actual money doing it. I can hear the parents from Friday Night Tykes now, "A&M is gonna pay you $15,000* a year while you're also a student? Not in my household, boy. Get to studyin and quit dreamin." You completely misread what he's saying: that the universities will just go "screw it, if we can't have all of it, no one gets anything."
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Jan 29, 2014 05:42
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Chichevache posted:Yeah, moms and dads will magically decide their babies shouldn't play this game anymore once the integrity is gone and they start making actual money doing it. I can hear the parents from Friday Night Tykes now, "A&M is gonna pay you $15,000* a year while you're also a student? Not in my household, boy. Get to studyin and quit dreamin." Don't be a dick. He's right that this unionizing players would generate tremendous change and could cause irreparable harm to college football.
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Jan 29, 2014 05:44
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Sash! posted:You completely misread what he's saying: that the universities will just go "screw it, if we can't have all of it, no one gets anything." Yeah, you're kidding yourself if you think this won't happen at a large fraction of current D1 programs. If this has traction (probably not yet), college football's headed back to the stone age. Maybe that'll be for the best, who knows, but it certainly doesn't bode well for the on field product. General Dog fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 05:45
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superaielman posted:Don't be a dick. He's right that this unionizing players would generate tremendous change and could cause irreparable harm to college football. All the better if it results in an actual minor league with actual professionalism.
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Jan 29, 2014 05:45
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Panzeh posted:All the better if it results in an actual minor league with actual professionalism. but think of all the communications departments
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Jan 29, 2014 05:49
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Sash! posted:You completely misread what he's saying: that the universities will just go "screw it, if we can't have all of it, no one gets anything." I hadn't realized that was what he was trying to say, though considering he never made that point at all I don't think I was being too uncharitable.
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Jan 29, 2014 05:59
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Sash! posted:You completely misread what he's saying: that the universities will just go "screw it, if we can't have all of it, no one gets anything." It's a drat shame that there is no other system in the world for young athletes to compete and improve before getting to the big league. C'est la vie
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Jan 29, 2014 06:20
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Relentlessboredomm posted:It's a drat shame that there is no other system in the world for young athletes to compete and improve before getting to the big league. C'est la vie I'm not approaching this as an advocate for the athletes, I'm approaching it as a college football fan. If you're a fan of college football, this is bad news.
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Jan 29, 2014 06:30
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Frackie Robinson posted:This is really exciting, as the end of the NCAA as we know it would definitely make college football better and not ultimately kill the sport, no siree...
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Jan 29, 2014 06:36
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Frackie Robinson posted:I'm not approaching this as an advocate for the athletes, I'm approaching it as a college football fan. If you're a fan of college football, this is bad news. I'm a fan of football. College is an unrefined method of delivering football that's younger and wilder than the big leagues. I don't give a drat if the delivery system changes.
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Jan 29, 2014 06:39
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Relentlessboredomm posted:I'm a fan of football. College is an unrefined method of delivering football that's younger and wilder than the big leagues. I don't give a drat if the delivery system changes. If that's where you're coming from that's fine, it's just weird to see people in this thread that I know to have rooting interests in college football act like this is great news. I know nothing's going to come of this specific effort, but it's still an omen of things to come, none of which are good for the continued existence of college football at its current level of competition.
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Jan 29, 2014 06:42
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Frackie Robinson posted:If that's where you're coming from that's fine, it's just weird to see people in this thread that I know to have rooting interests in college football act like this is great news. I know nothing's going to come of this specific effort, but it's still an omen of things to come, none of which are good for the continued existence of college football at its current level of competition. If the NFL moves to a true minor league system, it's going to squash any sort of creative offense which will be lovely
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Jan 29, 2014 06:52
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I think you guys are underestimating just how much money the NCAA probably makes. I am not at all convinced that unionizing would be the death of college athletics, no more than I am convinced that emancipating slaves would be the death of the tobacco industry.
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Jan 29, 2014 06:59
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Frackie Robinson posted:If that's where you're coming from that's fine, it's just weird to see people in this thread that I know to have rooting interests in college football act like this is great news. I know nothing's going to come of this specific effort, but it's still an omen of things to come, none of which are good for the continued existence of college football at its current level of competition. So your pride in your alma mater is more important to you than the interests of these athletes?
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Jan 29, 2014 07:02
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Chichevache posted:So your pride in your alma mater is more important to you than the interests of these athletes? I think that health hazards notwithstanding, these athletes are pretty well taken care of. To make my stance clear, I think in an ideal world you could keep college football more or less the way it is, but also have it coexist with an actual professional minor league, just like college baseball and the minors coexist. College shouldn't be a mandatory stop for elite players, but until the NFL changes its rules about draft eligibility there isn't a lot to be done. General Dog fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 07:07
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Sataere posted:I think you guys are underestimating just how much money the NCAA probably makes. I am not at all convinced that unionizing would be the death of college athletics, no more than I am convinced that emancipating slaves would be the death of the tobacco industry. Yeah, this. The argument that the administrative .1% will consider anything less than total exploitation a loss and pull out is not something I expected from this board. It's literally the exact same argument that's been used to negate labor reform for centuries. I thought this was a refuge for LF castoffs not a Young Republicans club.
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Jan 29, 2014 07:17
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Eifert Posting posted:Yeah, this. The argument that the administrative .1% will consider anything less than total exploitation a loss and pull out is not something I expected from this board. It's literally the exact same argument that's been used to negate labor reform for centuries. It's a slippery slope. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/schools/finances/ Look how many of these athletic departments are running at a loss or breaking even and tell me how they're going to make it work if they have to share any significant portion of their profits from football. Yeah, at first you're going to have small token stipends that won't make a lot of difference. Then you'll have an inevitable escalation in compensation for players until eventually all but about 20 schools are priced out of it. Some will drop down to a lower division, others will hang on but be unable to remain competitive. At least that's how I see it.
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Jan 29, 2014 07:37
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I could see a bunch of DII and DIII school pulling out, but I think most all of the DI schools people give a poo poo about would be fine. Really (in my opinion) DII and DIII schools shouldn't have football programs anyway.
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Jan 29, 2014 07:37
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That money is not evenly distributed throughout college and most college football programs operate at a loss (and like, an actual loss, not "Pro Sports Accounting is Magical" loss). If you add salaries for 85~ scholarship players you're tacking on something on the order of a million dollars, minimum, to the operating costs of each program, which is not something that the BGSUs and the Rices of the world just have laying around.Eifert Posting posted:Yeah, this. The argument that the administrative .1% will consider anything less than total exploitation a loss and pull out is not something I expected from this board. It's literally the exact same argument that's been used to negate labor reform for centuries. We're exploring both sides of an issue instead of just jerking each other off with how much we agree and are outraged. If the system requires the exploitation of thousands of college students then the system shouldn't exist, of course, but it changes the landscape of college athletics as a whole. Also don't take General Dog/Frackie Robinson as the voice of the majority (unless you really need a strawman or w/e)
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Jan 29, 2014 07:37
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Frackie Robinson posted:I think that health hazards notwithstanding, these athletes are pretty well taken care of. While I completely disagree with you I do want to thank you for giving me an honest answer. Looking back at it I realized my question comes off a lot more aggressive and confrontational than I intended it to.
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Jan 29, 2014 07:38
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I think unionizing is the way to go. Right now, the only people talking about paying players is coming for the media and there are so many things a union or organization of players can accomplish other than pay for athletes. For one, eliminating the the three year rule. Right now it serves no purpose. Its even more ridiculous in basketball with the one year rule. Could you imagine if Lebron spent a year in college? Plenty of NBA athletes are ready right out of high school. Its a ridiculous system of collusion. I think that NCAA athletes of all sports shouldn't have to be afraid of losing their scholarship year to year, or be prevented from moving on when they clearly have the talent too. Clowney, Winston, Bridgewater, Luck, etc. How many of these guys would have been first rounders despite the extra year in college? Its not just pay, its about being appropriately compensated and not being beholden to a system that literally gives you no other choice. The NCAA rules are designed to force a player to stay at the school they initially commit too. All in all, if this results in the collapse of college football then I am fine. What will happen is the top 80 or so school will form their own teams, and still be tax free and basically we will have what college football has been moving towards for years, 4-5 super conferences with the top tier teams that can pay to sustain a few other teams. They can design the system however they want and basically create a true minor league NFL. Then you will have another 80 or so colleges that will have student athletes in the sense that it was initially envisioned.
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Jan 29, 2014 07:48
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Chiche, what do you disagree with? That college ball could coexist with a minor football league? Or that going pro shouldn't require x amount of college?
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Jan 29, 2014 07:49
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Eifert Posting posted:Yeah, this. The argument that the administrative .1% will consider anything less than total exploitation a loss and pull out is not something I expected from this board. It's literally the exact same argument that's been used to negate labor reform for centuries. I think you misunderstand me because unions loving rule and I want the athletes to seize the means of yardage production and get paid according to their labor. Labor reform Owns, gently caress the NCAA and their bourgeois ownership class. http://books.google.com/books?id=4U...epage&q&f=false wheez the roux fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 07:54
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