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Aardark
Aug 5, 2004

by Lowtax
Great recap, please keep posting. This was in fact a great show.

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bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?
I still think that one of the best uses of music in TV is the Cash at the end of season 1. The man comes around for mass Terminator killis is perfect. Also the use of a pool.

haveblue
Aug 15, 2005



Toilet Rascal
A lot of the best moments have been gone over, but one that hasn't been mentioned yet is when Derek brings John to meet young Kyle near the end of season one. It's an amazing emotional moment, only possible through the show's premise and diligent handling of time travel, that sneaks up on you so quietly that you don't realize what's going on until the very end when you and John put the pieces together in your heads simultaneously.

Also John Henry and Savannah singing a Scottish folk song over Derek's John Doe burial.

"Better than it had any right to be" is the perfect way to describe this show.

haveblue fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Feb 28, 2014

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'
Oh, yeah, I mentioned how I find the use of the term 'cyborg' weird. See, to me, the term cyborg implies a more intertwined melding of man and machine, where the base is typically an organic being and the organic components keep the organism as a whole alive. The Borg are cyborgs, Darth Vader is a cyborg. The Terminators are robots that have a fake skin only because it is the most effective form of disguise and they can function perfectly fine without it. I mean, it's fine once you realise they're using the term cyborg as a portmanteau of cybernetic organism without meaning cyborg as we generally see the term, but it still gets me. Also, cyborg is a more intimidating word than robot. And if I wanted to go full CD on this thread, I'd posit that cyborg is similar to Chernobog (a Slavic said-to-be-evil Deity) which fits neatly with the Christian elements of the show.

And, yeah, the three big uses of music in the show - When The Man Comes Around; Samson and Delilah; Donald, Where's Your Trousers? - are all fantastic scenes.

WarLocke
Jun 6, 2004

You are being watched. :allears:
I think terminators are a perfectly legitimate use of the term 'cyborg' - they're just not the stereotypical cyborg (fully human except has a robotic arm or whatever). Nothing about the term makes it have to be 'a human with mechanical grafts/parts'.

Tin Miss
Apr 8, 2009

Meow
This thread has got me re-watching the series. I'd forgot how good it was. I shouldn't have really, considering it's where my username came from.

Caufman
May 7, 2007
I'm rewatching it as well, and I'm not always sure this show knows how it feels about time travel. I really enjoyed the closed loop summary posted earlier in this thread. The idea of one timeline playing itself out is one of the tidiest ways I think time travel can be dealt with in fiction. But there's an episode in the second season where Jesse has kidnapped a famous Skynet collaborator that Derek and Cameron have no recollection of. Derek believes this is because they are from separate, alternate futures. I hate this so much because then I'm not sure what the point of sending people back in time would be. If timetravelers are creating alternate futures, what happens to the people in the futures they left behind? Won't they see no result, positive or negative, from sending timetravelers back to create a separate timeline without any way to interact with it?

Well, the time travel theme was not my favorite parts about SCC. I guess it's an inextricable part of the Terminator franchise, but when they lean on it, it creeks under inspection.

Irish Joe
Jul 23, 2007

by Lowtax

Caufman posted:

If timetravelers are creating alternate futures, what happens to the people in the futures they left behind?


I'm sure its only a matter of time before someone shows up with a loop or infinite timelines theory they read in a Terminator comic, but I like to think of the future in TSCC as a single, infinitely mutable state of existence. Every change made in the relative past rewrites the future and the people who were left behind along with it.

WarLocke
Jun 6, 2004

You are being watched. :allears:

Irish Joe posted:

I'm sure its only a matter of time before someone shows up with a loop or infinite timelines theory they read in a Terminator comic, but I like to think of the future in TSCC as a single, infinitely mutable state of existence. Every change made in the relative past rewrites the future and the people who were left behind along with it.

NowDerek goes back in time, and changes the future so that that one dude ends up torturing FutureDerek. This doesn't effect NowDerek because he's 'upstream' but this means that Jesse's timeline has now changed so when she goes back in time, she remembers her Derek (FutureDerek) being tortured. It's basically the 'new futures are being created all over' thing except it's only the one future that keeps being rewritten like a VHS casette being taped over repeatedly. So even though FutureDerek is tortured NowDerek doesn't remember it because HE wasn't tortured when he was in the future.

gently caress now I have a headache.

-Blackadder-
Jan 2, 2007

Game....Blouses.
Just finished a marathon of this.

Was there ever any word on where the writers would've taken the story in the third season? That was quite a cliffhanger in the series finale.

Also, don't know if it's already been mentioned but it looks like they're rebooting the Terminator series for both movie and television. And apparently, as far as the new TV series goes, it's much to the chagrin of a lot of TSCC fans who were hoping to see the show resurrected by Netflix or something like it. I had heard about the new Terminator movies and that Jai Courtney (Varro from Spartacus/John McLane Jr.) would be playing Kyle Reese and Emilia Clarke from Game of Thrones would be Sarah Connor but I hadn't heard about a new Terminator TV series. It'll be interesting to see what they do with both.

-Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Mar 9, 2014

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

quote:

The reboot is expected to revisit a pivotal moment in the original 1985 Terminator but take the on-going story in a very different direction.

I can only assume this means that Kyle Reese lives. It's the only big moment I can think of where the story could go in a very different direction.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952




Milky Moor posted:

I can only assume this means that Kyle Reese lives. It's the only big moment I can think of where the story could go in a very different direction.

Unless the Model 800 is fully functional...

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

mllaneza posted:

Unless the Model 800 is fully functional...

TSCC implies that the Model 888s certainly are! :eng101:

I got delayed by a few essays but I'm about to sit down and go through the second episode.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'
Episode 2 - Gnothi Seauton/Know Thyself

So, with this episode opening with Sarah stating the difficulties of living on the run - nine aliases, twenty three jobs, four languages, three years in a mental hospital - I think I'm going to be spending some time talking about what I really liked about Season 1 and what I really missed with Season 2 but I'll touch on that when I get to it.

Remember what I said about Sarah and John never really standing face to face? Well, that's what happens again in their very first scene in this episode. Sarah is looking over her shoulder at John. It's been three days and while they seem more relaxed than they had been in the pilot, there's always that icy edge to their conversations. When Sarah sits down to talk to John, she crosses both her arms and her legs while sitting at an angle to him which is probably the most closed body language you could possibly display to your own son.

This scene gives us, however, an example of what eventually went missing from the series. John is complaining that he's been stuck in the house for three days. Sarah says that it takes time to get IDs. Cameron promptly shows up and deadpan asks where the IDs are because it's been three days. This 'deadpan Terminator humor' which can be seen in Terminator with the plasma rifle line in the gun store and throughout much of Terminator 2 seems to vanish throughout the second season of TSCC. I really liked it because the humor always served as a reminder that life is pretty good, that it's not all grimdark and edgy apocalyptic survival. These brief moments of levity are, to the audience, what John and Sarah are fighting to defend.

The next scene, with Sarah and Cameron in a car, is where we get the first real mention of TSCC's temporal chess war plot. John Connor is sending back resistance members to 'stack the deck', so to speak. When John rings up and asks Sarah if she is yelling at Cameron yet, which she is, it gives us an idea that despite the fact there two don't get along like a traditional mother and son, they know each other really well. It's also an indicator that John and Cameron look out for each other. In the previous scene, Cameron's 'three days' comment prompts John to get a bit more assertive with his want for fake identification and here his wry comment comes at the exact moment that Sarah was beginning to get heated and sarcastic. And then there's the bit where, as a young man, John fails to find turkey in the fridge because he can't be bothered moving things around. John is fifteen years old at this point and I like the fact that they kind of show us this - he's an idiot kid, he does dumb things, but this is also something that just gets dropped in the second season where he seems to make the jump from kid to leader without much trouble.

To go aside for one moment, TSCC Season 1 feels like it should be two seasons and Season 2 feels like it should be a third season. The plot as is feels like we've get everything barely established and then it all blows up or changes dramatically. For example, the 'break up John and Cameron' plot should really have come after they were closer because, really, they aren't that close at all in Season 2. Season 1 is the story of this family unit coming together and beginning to understand each other as people and Season 2 literally destroys this in its first episode and robs the sudden coldness of the cast of much of its impact because, well, it's the status quo. I think the series as a whole would have been well served by a brief time where the Connors, Cameron and Reese could function as something close to happy as possible. That way, when they all splinter off in a later season, it would be all the more effective.

Whatever, I'll get to that later. So, Sarah and Cameron go to find these resistance fighters. Of course, disaster strikes! If John Connor is trying to put his own pieces in place, then Skynet is making its own counter moves. In a pretty clever gambit, a Terminator - one we will come to know as Vick - is playing dead amongst the corpses. Vick attacks Cameron. What makes a lot of the fight scenes in TSCC work, as we see right now, is the amazing sound work with the muted metal on metal impacts when they fight as well as the fantastic ability for the actors involved to maintain a straight face while punching, kicking and being thrown into things. TSCC really excels at the small things - like Cameron efficiently and brutally barging through the remains of a wall in order to get to Vick as opposed to going around or ducking under it. Same with Sarah stealing a motorcycle to go after Vick - sure, they could have written it that it's there and someone left the keys in, but showing Sarah taking it from someone and pulling a gun gives her this spine, fire and pragmatism that you don't get from a lot of female characters.

Anyways, Sarah finds out from Cameron that she succumbs to cancer and John finds out that Skynet has no idea what he looks like. John looks like he's about to say that makes it fine for him to go outside because this house is so dark and claustrophobic it's no surprise but, of course, if Skynet does find out who he is they'll be back at square one. John and Sarah have a chat about school and Sarah tells John 'can't you be happy being yourself' which is a both, hey, a reference to the title and ironic when Sarah makes explicit that she isn't sure who she is anymore during the opening voice over. Their conversation is, of course, set when they are on opposing sides of a table.

So, Sarah and Cameron go to see Enrique - that's her old friend from Terminator 2 - who claims to be retired and sends them along to meet his son, Carlos. "But he is not a believer," Enrique warns Sarah, which is - I think - the first open reference to a whole bunch of religious and spiritual stuff that runs throughout this show - Ellison is a man of deep faith, the Tower of Babel in Season 2, the mental hospital Doctor's madness later on, the fact that the apocalypse is literally called Judgement Day. John sneaks out and we get this scene where he stands here bewildered by these cool touch phones everyone has. John's a tech whiz, so, he gets absolutely engrossed by this new technology - and it ends up almost costing him when a sales assistant comes over. I know it isn't everyone's cup of tea but I love scenes where fantastical characters have to deal with the mundane.

And then we get a scene where a roadside worker has brought Cromartie's gleaming chrome cranial casing home and the body wakes up and we've only eighteen minutes into this episode but it already feels like there's way too much going on and this feeling of being overwhelmed by what is happening in each episode is my big criticism of Season 1.

Just to recap what has been covered in the episode so far:
Sarah and Cameron have gone to get passports from resistance fighters where they were attacked by a Terminator. From there, they went to Enrique. However, Enrique has given up his under the table life, so, he directs them on to his son, Carlos.

John is fed up with being stuck at home. He has struck out on his own and is evidently still thinking about his old father figure Charley.

Cromartie is still active and his body is killing people.

Now, this might not seem like a lot, but it feels exhausting. I've watched a fair bit of modern television and it honestly feels like you could wring so much out of any of these plots that they don't all need to be shoved into this one episode, especially when I'll fully track them out at the end of the episode. My big, big criticism of Season 1 - and this is something that is ameliorated in Season 2, actually - is that so much happens in each episode and both the end and beginning of each episode feel arbitrary.

I'm Australian so I've not had much contact with Hispanic people which means I can't really comment on the minutiae of this scene between Sarah and Carlos. But the very fact that someone could ask "Nine-Eleven, what's that?" is so alien and weird and yet the reaction to it is done so well, as people have noted when you watch how the two actors sell it with their hand movements and their expressions and all these things that everyone around the world did to describe it.

It's probably not a surprise that I really like the scenes between Cameron and Chola (the silent, intimidating woman who acts as a lookout for Carlos) and how we see Cameron imitate Chola's posturing without getting the implication behind it but also how that lack of fear leads to an instant feeling of sisterhood between Chola and Cameron in the face of a condescending, sexist police officer. Sarah plays him like a puppet and gives Cameron an outrageous, almost full on maniacal dressing down. Afterwards, Cameron claims she will only follow orders from John, but not the John we know. Future John, and they are not the same person yet.

Speaking of John, he's breaking in to a house. Whose house? Charley's house! And John is so disappointed when he sees all the indicators that Charley has remarried. Or... married in the first place, I suppose, but John evidently thought Charley would become his father at some point. His father who wasn't Kyle Reese or the T-800 from T2, of course. Charley makes an earnest attempt to reconnect with John and John - being the emotionally damaged young man that he is - instantly closes up and hurls Charley to the ground. It's such a sad scene.

And John gets home just in time for Cameron to walk past him and run her fingers over his neck, throwing him a look back over her shoulder as she goes. We expect that Cameron will inform Sarah that John has given himself away, but all she can decide upon is that he is 'stressed' and Sarah, being a mom, already knows. Still, John's little adventure catalyses Sarah into making sure they get the ID papers ASAP.

The trio return to the resistance hideout, looking for whatever it is they presumably have. I assume Cameron told them that they would have something valuable? One thing I realised while watching this scene again is that this seems like a test for John. I'll explain. In the hideout, Cameron comes across a Hang In There, Baby poster of a kitten. You've all seen one before. John stares at it and calls it ridiculous. Cameron says, apropos of nothing, that people like small animals. At that moment, John seems to figure out that there's more to it and - bingo - there's a wall safe hidden behind it. The thing is that Cameron's sensors would surely have been able to see past the thin poster meaning that there's another reason why she didn't go to it automatically - which fits with her ulterior motive seeming to be ensuring that John becomes the leader the resistance needs.

TSCC is obviously written by people who like Terminator and have given it a fair bit of thought. How do you stop a metal adversary? Pump the main electrical line of a building into them. Cameron discovers this when she goes to rip the safe from the wall. John gets it open with a code, taking the time to cover his fingers to avoid leaving prints. The code? Judgement Day. Vick returns, presumably to start waiting for the fourth resistance fighter - someone who we will come to know is Derek Reese - to return. Before he arrives, however, Cameron's disabled chassis is thrown from the window and John and Sarah make good on their escape... but they are observed by a man with a barcode on his arm.

Now, this takes us to one of my favourite scenes from the whole series. It turns out that the resistance fighters don't have cash or coin but rather diamonds. Cameron is curious about them and takes one of them to show Sarah. The contrast between Cameron's innocent 'Why are diamonds a girl's best friend?' and open admission that John gave it to her contrasted with Sarah's disparaging remark 'How sweet of him' is just great, especially when she refuses being given one. To Sarah, a diamond isn't ornamentation - it's a resource to be utilised. To Cameron, it's something John gave her but she doesn't understand what that might mean. And while you're sitting there a bit weirded out by John giving Cameron a diamond (hello, marriage symbolism), Cameron reveals to Sarah that she and John have history in the future and it is a very intimate history. John never told Sarah that having the Wizard of Oz read to him was one of his favourite memories, but he told Cameron. The scene has another level of impact for me because my own mother self-admittedly wanted to be Sarah Connor and was likewise firm, tough, athletic and one of the strongest people I ever knew.

Cromartie gets his head back and kills the person who found it.

Sarah and Cameron go to get the papers from Carlos. While Sarah talks shop, Cameron gets a makeover from Chola. What I like about Carlos is that, sure, he's not benevolent but he doesn't seem like an rear end in a top hat either. He's just a businessman. Still, he says something in Spanish that gives Sarah pause.

Charley's wife asks him what's wrong while he seems to ineffectually work on what looks like an engine part, something John briefly tinkered with when he broke in. It's a nice little indication that they are similar or maybe that Charley taught him some things. Charley lies to his wife about being okay and about the injury he sustained when John knocked him over.

Sarah pays Enrique a visit, gun drawn. Turns out that Carlos called him a rat - and not just any rat, a police informer. Enrique attempts to defend his actions and explain himself and Cameron shoots him in the chest, twice. The make up and earrings only make Cameron look all the more inhuman with her flat, stoic expression. She looks like a doll. Even though Chola has dressed her up, Cameron is still an amoral killing machine beneath her skin. Sarah is shocked - while she would have been ready to kill Enrique, it was only if there was no doubt that he was going to sell them out. Cameron claims to have shot him because there was too much risk involved and Sarah strikes her. Immediately, Sarah goes on the attack "You don't know what I would do and you don't know John (emphasis mine) and she claims that she has no idea what she herself would or wouldn't do.

Gnothi Seauton. Know thyself. That's the key difference between Cameron and Sarah and humans in metal in general. In TSCC, none of the people know who they are and yet the machines - Cameron, Cromartie, Weaver - all know themselves and are spared from doubt and hesitation.

The episode ends with John and Cameron getting ready to go to school, Sarah going to get a cancer test done, the disguised Cromartie Terminator wandering through the streets, and proof that Enrique was talking to none other than the FBI agent hounding the Connors - James Ellison.

Now, just to illustrate what I mentioned about the busy nature of this episode...

The A Plot
Sarah and Cameron have gone to get passports from resistance fighters where they were attacked by a Terminator. From there, they went to Enrique. However, Enrique has given up his under the table life, so, he directs them on to his son, Carlos. Carlos offers to get them the papers for a substantial amount of money. They return to the resistance safehouse and get the diamonds, narrowing evading the aforementioned Terminator, and exchange some of the diamonds into cash. They pay Carlos the cash and get the papers. Sarah suspects Enrique of being an informant and Cameron kills him. In the end, it is revealed that Enrique was actually an informant.

The B Plot
John is fed up with being stuck at home. He has struck out on his own, been amazed by the technological advancements from the time jump, and is evidently still thinking about his old father figure Charley. He goes to find Charley and ends up striking him before fleeing. At the end of the episode, John is back in school.

The C Plot
Cromartie is still active and his body is killing people. His head was discovered by a roadside worker and then reunited with its body (which had been thrown into a scrap yard for some reason). He is now disguised and walking through the streets.

And this isn't even mentioning the character beats like the diamond scene, Cameron chilling with Chola, the fact that one Resistance member is still alive, etc. There is a lot happening to the extent that it feels like you could have made two episodes from all this material. Season 1 sets up and resolves so many 'big issues' in the same episode which, to me, is a flaw - the Turk, the traffic system, etc. As enjoyable as it is, it leaves the general feel of the first season feeling haphazard and out of control, like whoever was controlling it all was afraid to let things breathe for five seconds and that the audience would forget things week to week. There is a lot to keep track of and every episode of the first season is like this. As it turns out, however, the second season goes way too far in the other direction and puts everything on the slowest possible burn as opposed to quick mini-arcs.

Or maybe I'm just an outlier and I'm bad at watching television. Thoughts?

Oh, a quick edit. The one thing that bugs me about this episode is that Cromartie's chassis is just sort of thrown into a scrap yard without being snapped up by some interested party.

Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Mar 9, 2014

haveblue
Aug 15, 2005



Toilet Rascal
Season 1 is absolutely overstuffed and compressed badly. This is one of the shows that was affected by the 2007 writers' strike; I don't think it was originally planned to be only nine episodes and had to be crunched down when it became clear that the time to work on it was limited.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Caufman posted:

I'm rewatching it as well, and I'm not always sure this show knows how it feels about time travel. I really enjoyed the closed loop summary posted earlier in this thread. The idea of one timeline playing itself out is one of the tidiest ways I think time travel can be dealt with in fiction. But there's an episode in the second season where Jesse has kidnapped a famous Skynet collaborator that Derek and Cameron have no recollection of. Derek believes this is because they are from separate, alternate futures. I hate this so much because then I'm not sure what the point of sending people back in time would be. If timetravelers are creating alternate futures, what happens to the people in the futures they left behind? Won't they see no result, positive or negative, from sending timetravelers back to create a separate timeline without any way to interact with it?

Well, the time travel theme was not my favorite parts about SCC. I guess it's an inextricable part of the Terminator franchise, but when they lean on it, it creeks under inspection.

To me all the crazy people coming back from random alternate futures was one of the best parts of the show. The idea that you might be a Resistance guy or a Terminator and you meet a fellow Resistance person or Terminator and they might not even be from your timeline is wild. It somehow made the war pointless yet both sides kept fighting. It also made it fascinating because even people on your own side (either side) might not have the same goals as you.

As far as the new movie, the easiest way to know if they are blowing out the continuity of T:SCC completely is whether Derek Reese exists or not. It's an incredible long shot and I in no way expect them to acknowledge the tv show in any way, shape or form. On the other hand, they've said they have a way to fold all the timelines together and stranger things have happened. We live in a world where JJ Abrams rebooted Star Trek without blowing out the old show and Doctor Who fans basically took over the franchise and brought it back. And they're bringing back Heroes. So you never know.

WarLocke
Jun 6, 2004

You are being watched. :allears:

Astroman posted:

And they're bringing back Heroes.

This is meant to be a good thing?

EVGA Longoria
Dec 25, 2005

Let's go exploring!

bobkatt013 posted:

I still think that one of the best uses of music in TV is the Cash at the end of season 1. The man comes around for mass Terminator killis is perfect. Also the use of a pool.

That for the S1 finale and then Samson and Delilah for the S2 premiere were both great.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'
I watched Terminator 2 again last night just to compare it to Sarah Connor Chronicles. I really do think that TSCC is a worthy successor which isn't something I'd say lightly when it comes to adaptations of big name franchises. It's all the little things, such as the sheer pathos when Sarah finally gets to smash a Terminator CPU chip in Season 2.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'
Episode 3 - The Turk (is introduced, escalated and resolved all in one episode!)

The episode opens with a dream of Sarah Connor killing the men who designed the atomic bomb. Not only is this a recurring idea throughout TSCC but it is something that Sarah directly states in Terminator 2, that "men like you [Dyson]" dreamt of the bomb and brought it into being. It's a neat call back and it also sets up the recurring idea I mentioned - is it moral to kill those who will develop something that will cause incredible suffering? Would it be moral to kill Oppenheimer et al? Would it be moral to kill Miles Dyson?

Sarah, it seems, is firmly on the side of yes.

John finds Cameron in the kitchen and while he makes breakfast he watches her apply eyeliner. She evidently remembered how to apply it from Chola.

John: You're getting pretty good at that.
Cameron: Thank you.
John: Still it's not exactly brain surgery or anything. Be pretty funny if you were some sort of advanced cybernetic intelligence, yet stumped by a stick of eyeliner.
Cameron: No, it's not brain surgery. It would have to be a lot sharper for brain surgery.

At that comment, John gives Cameron the most sarcastic look. This awkward dry humor is a big part of the franchise. Terminator 2 got it right ('You were going to kill them!' 'Of course, I'm a Terminator.'), Terminator 3 went into full-on parody, and Terminator 4 excised it entirely. TSCC, for the most part, nails it. All in all, it seems that the Connor family is becoming more relaxed around each other - or too relaxed, as Cameron walks through the frame in naught but her underwear. Sarah gives Cameron a very terse reminder to wear clothes and begins listing details about some sort of building - number of entraces, security guards, where the big open spaces are.

"Mom," John says, "It's high school. Okay, not Supermax. We can handle it."

"We can handle it," Cameron repeats and Sarah gives her a very unimpressed look. It's interesting to note that Sarah was at ease with the T-800 from T2, taking its hand and respecting it (him?) as an equal by the end of the film. Her reaction to Cameron is far more cool which, y'know, stems from how we see John react so warmly to his Terminator-Dad. Only, now John is fifteen and the Terminator is an attractive young woman. I think I'm going to focus mostly on John and Cameron in this episode.

John: Ok, now blend in.
Cameron: Blend in.
John: Yeah, I mean don't seem like a freak. You know what I mean, right?
Cameron: Freak. Weirdo, Kook. Oddball. Crackpot. Strange duck. Queer potato. Nut. I've been reading the dictionary. I don't sleep.
John: Yeah see, that's what I'm talking about. You do that, you sound like a freak... You won't fool anyone.
Cameron: I fooled you.

It's that final line that makes Cameron interesting. There's a glimmer of self-awareness there and it gives her a certain sense of vulnerability. Around John and Sarah, she's 'normal', just like they are with each other. In public, she's disguised just as much as they are. What I like about Cameron is that she never wants to be human. Like the T2 Terminator, she can never be human. To borrow a bit of philosophy, she will always experience things differently, different qualia. But she gradually comes to learn and understand human traits and ideas - such as makeup - but expresses them in a way that makes sense for a logical killing machine. She's not a Pinnochio wanting to become a 'real boy' but as we see through the series, she wants to try and understand people better. This is immediately apparent by how when John and Cameron spot graffiti of a door on the school wall, she determines it as a Trompe-l'oeil painting - which is one of those nifty illusion pieces and admits to John again that she doesn't sleep. But she doesn't just stand guard either, she learns.

This, of course, is something that's expanded upon in Season 2.

So, John and Cameron head into the school. Much like Sarah's encounter with September 11 through the gangers, this is where John encounters another big part of school life in the contemporary world - all the beefed up security. Once again, I'm talking about this from an Australian perspective but I am under the impression that the metal detectors and security guards were a relatively new thing. Both John and Cameron give each other a glance like this is new anyways. Of course, the metal detectors go off for Cameron and John covers it up with a lie that she has a metal plate in her head "a big one".

Sarah meets up with Miles Dyson's wife who, thanks to the Terminator wiki, I find out is named 'Tarissa'. Now, what I'm going to mention here is something that TSCC is ridiculously good with.

It's the Bechdel test.

Now, look, I'm not going to say the Bechdel test is perfect or amazing or anything particularly academic, but it is interesting to note if you have any interest in how the media portrays women. Essentially, it is a test to see if two female characters - named characters - ever talk together in a show about something that isn't a man. TSCC is really good about this and it's one of the reasons I rate the show so highly. Sarah and Tarissa talk about John, Cromartie, Danny Dyson, and many other things but the conversation is rather terse from Tarissa and awkward from Sarah. Eventually though, Tarissa cuts right to the point which is another point in TSCC's favour - the characters act like real people. Tarissa will help Sarah but she will never get over the fact that she kind of ruined her life and, essentially, killed her husband. This consideration of Sarah as a murderer almost leads to Tarissa not mentioning that she recognises one of the people from a series of photos Sarah gives her. She knows what's likely to happen. Eventually, however, Tarissa indicates that she remembers one of them - a man named Andy, someone who worked as an intern for Miles Dyson.

"Is he going to die, too?" Tarissa asks, with that faux-pleasant tone. Yeah, she knows what's going on and while she gets that it's necessary she certainly doesn't think it's morally acceptable. She's the antithesis to Sarah's view. "If he does, just make sure it matters. Make sure it's not in vain."

How can you not like Tarissa?

So, we cut to James Ellison. He's investigating the shoot out at the resistance hideout, linking it to Enrique's death. The same gun was used, he says. He's also confused why the safe was wired into the power main for the building. The officer on the scene is all 'hey, they're no-name drug dealers, who knows or cares'. I'm only going to point out that she's a woman because TSCC is really good about not defaulting into filling out these sort of 'tertiary roles' with men, especially a rude and arrogant cop. Anyways, Ellison resolves to figure this all out.

And here's Cromartie. He's in a hospital, still in his complete full cover disguise. He seems to be looking for blood samples and he throws a doctor through a door when he is interrupted. He steals all the O+ plasma and strolls right on out of there. Weird. Wonder what he wants with all that blood!

Back to Sarah. She's found where the man named Andy works. He's a charming enough guy, kind of a nerd, but nice. He rattles off a lot of tech specs about this particular model of phone and Sarah basically asks whether it can call people. She does it in this tone that is either intentionally obtuse and/or flirtatious and/or sarcastically mocking all the features that Andy listed off. It's a neat little nod to Sarah's pragmatic attitudes and her disdain of intrusive technology. And then when Andy tries to pick Sarah up and ask her to dinner, he gets both barrels of Sarah's amazing attitude ("Talk fast.")

At school, John meets a blonde girl named Cheri. She seems a withdrawn, distant sort - sort of like John himself! It's too bad she vanishes after this season, really. Cameron shows up, transferring into the science class to keep an eye on John. John is less than impressed.

Ellison goes to see Carlos (Enrique's nephew) to try and figure out who killed Enrique. It's fruitless.

Cromartie goes to see a nameless scientist. He grabs him by the throat and begins strangling him. He seems to be a more effective investigator than Ellison. Anyways, it turns out he wants the guy to make a certain chemical compound - he's written a ludicrously big equation all over the wall. The scientist initially claims that it is impossible but, upon closer inspection, agrees to create what seems to be a new skin layer for Cromartie. Cromartie strips off his disguise and the scientist gets a clear look at his endoskeleton. The scientist, of course, meets with a messy end and Cromartie takes his eyes for whatever reason.

John and Cameron get home from school. Sarah asks them how the day went. Cameron remarks "I have a metal plate in my head". John says it was a good day because he wasn't killed and Cameron didn't kill anyone. They chat about Terissa Dyson and Andy the phone salesman guy - and, get this, they're both in the same shot and facing each other. Remember what I said about the Connors becoming more comfortable? It's a neat touch. They discuss killing Andy and Sarah says "No one dies until I say so".

Cameron: People die all the time, they won't wait for her.

:thurman:

Sarah rolls her eyes, John just kind of stares in disbelief. "I fooled you again," Cameron remarks.

In a bathtub, Sarah reflects on the case of Heisenberg in Germany. It is a direct parallel to how she is considering what she might have to do with Andy. She's thinking about this while shaving her legs and inadvertantly cuts herself. I took it to mean that Sarah just doesn't shave her legs regularly, that she has better things to do than look pretty.

Sarah: In 1943, the German physicist Werner Heisenberg delivered a physics lecture to a packed hall in Zürich. One of the audience members was Mo Berg, an ex professional baseball player working as a spy for the OSS. Berg's task was to listen to the lecture, and determine whether Heisenberg and the Germans were close to perfecting the atomic bomb. If Berg discovered this was the case, he was to wait for Heisenberg outside the lecture hall and shoot the scientist in the head. He had never killed anyone before.

If Andy is close to perfecting Skynet, Sarah will kill him. For some reason, I always forget that Sarah has never killed anyone. I don't know why this is, given that she doesn't kill Miles Dyson.

When Sarah goes to dinner with Andy, at his place, she is wearing this horrible top. I only comment on that to point out that, again, Sarah is not up to date on fashion. Luckily for her, neither is Andy. Sarah grills him about his education, trying to figure him out. Andy, for his part, comes across as someone very similar to John. Incredible computer skills, dead father, a mother who went "off the rails". "You have family?" Andy asks her. "Distant," replies Sarah. They get to talking about chess (Fritz was a chess machine that won 4-2 in 2006, the poster is reflecting a real event) and, soon enough, Andy shows Sarah the Turk - it's a big wall of monitors and computer hardware. Andy is enamoured with his creation, as Miles Dyson was with his. Still, as Andy talks, Sarah spies a hooded figure outside.

But when she goes out there to check, there is no one there. Sarah makes a hasty departure, using it as a convenient excuse to leave.

Next scene is John talking to Sarah. I think this is the first time we really see John grill her about something - as much as a fifteen year old kid can grill his mother. It's the first time we see a hint of 'John as leader'. He wants to know what the Turk looked like but Sarah sums it up as just a bunch of computer parts. John wants to know if it had network access, what bandwidth it was using, power supply, cooling elements, fans. While he talks about full-fledged AI platforms, the camera linger on Cameron. Sarah seems dimissive of the Turk, stating that "it plays chess". She's backing down from wanting to hurt Andy.

The sudden reversal of power in this scene is interesting. John is leaned forward, questioning, insistent. Sarah is leaned back, evasive, closed body language. In the future, John probably has many conversations like this. Cameron is paying attention to, particularly when John talks at length, a nice little reminder that she is seemingly there to 'groom' John into being a leader.

Ellison is in his office. The officer from before comes in and mentions she ran the prints. Turns out, all the resistance member prints link them to a bunch of children. Weird. They're time travellers!

Sarah is back at the doctor's office. She doesn't have cancer and the doc mentions she's in no real danger of it. No risk factors, no genetic disposition. But Cameron told her she did and we, the audience, know that is how she dies in the T3 timeline. The Doctor advises her not to worry about predicting but to only try preventing. With that, Sarah contacts Andy.

At school, Cameron walks into the bathroom. Two girls are discussing fashion, when one of them asks Cameron if her clothes make her look fat Cameron, of course, answers without reservation: "Yes." When they ask what her problem is, Cameron states that they asked. "Bitch-whore much?" "I don't understand." The girls leave and Cameron picks up a small mirror that was left behind by someone. There's someone crying in one of the stalls and Cameron goes to investigate. Long story short, the girl - Jordon - is implicated in something unsavoury in the fresco that John and Cameron saw near the beginning of the episode. She's hunched over the basins, crying, and this little sequence happens.

Cameron: You're upset.
Jordon: No kidding I'm upset! My life is freakin' over!
(Long pause)
Cameron: (thrusting the mirror in Jordon's direction) Here's a present. It's tight.

Jordon storms out. Again, the scene has a edge of Terminator humor, but it's another interesting insight into Cameron. She has no knowledge of how emotions affect people but she knows, however vaguely, how to fix it. She doesn't get anything except literal, direct terms. A machine values the truth and clarity and accuracy and wouldn't ask a question unless it had no other way of getting the answer. She wasn't ordered to do this, she has no reason to go into the bathroom or to pick up the mirror, but she does it anyway. There's this sense of innocent curiosity about Cameron and her cold, logical way of looking at things. She's not limited to reacting, she's a pro-active presence. It's a contrast to the T2 Terminator who, while in a similar position, only learned by reacting to the world around him.

This scene is set right before Sarah and Andy talk further about the Turk and Andy goes on about how the Turk has moods and it does things differently based on some sort of internal whim that he doesn't understand.

Back to Cameron and John. She asks John if she likes this color on her, which confuses him. It takes him a moment to realise that she's talking about some make up she has applied with her little mirror. What sort of machine keeps a mirror like that? Before John can give an answer, Cameron informs him that she is a 'bitch whore' and that she has a new friend. It's quite possibly the most efficient small talk ever. When John wonders if Cameron's new friend called her a bitch whore Cameron clarifies that she cried instead. John just stands there saying 'what?' throughout the whole conversation. It's pretty cute, all in all.

And then the call goes up that there's a jumper on the school roof. John and Cameron rush out there and John admonishes someone who is doing the typical 'she just wants attention' thing. Cameron tells John that that's her new friend and John instantly wonders if Cameron did something to her but Cameron only says that she wanted to give her a present, which is true. John wants to go help her - John's going to be a pretty good leader, even now you can see the qualities that would make people want to follow him. He moves to the stairs but Cameron grabs him. Shocked, John orders her to let him go and Cameron just repeats his wisdom back to him: "Don't be a freak."

Jordon falls.

"I could've done something," John says, tersely, back at home. Sarah, quite sarcastically, asks him what would he do, be a hero? John explodes - of course, what else could he do? If he isn't allowed to be a hero, why are they even fighting? "Why not just give it to them if we're going to act like them?!" John snaps, storming out. Of course, Sarah and Cameron's response comes from the same place - getting involved means having to deal with the police. Dealing with the police means risking exposure. Exposure means imprisonment or death. Could John have saved Jordon? Who knows.

With that note, and Sarah burning down Andy's house as a compromise instead of killing him, the episode's main plot ends on the sentence "Now we are all sons of bitches." It pretty much encapsulates the show. Sons of bitches for ruining Tarissa's life, sons of bitches for Sarah introducing herself into Andy's life just to destroy his pride and joy, sons of bitches for Cameron forcing John to stand by and watch someone die.

Still, faced with her own Oppenheimer, Sarah falters. She might be a son of a bitch, but she's not a murderer. Not yet.

The episode itself ends with what feels like an epilogue of Cromartie climbing out of the bathtub - much like how Sarah removed parts of herself to establish a disguise and persona, Cromartie emerges from the bathtub with his new skin. It's bulbous and sickly and slick with blood and the eyelids are fused shut and it's all wrong.

Cromartie opens his eyes and his red optics flare to life. He took the doctor's eyes as a disguise.

It's pretty clear that, overall, I like this episode. The only things I think are wrong with it are the same problems that run through the entirety of Season 1 - plot points, big ones, are introduced, escalated and resolved in one episode. The whole thing feels this strange combination of rushed and slow and removes a lot of the dramatic effect, at least in my mind. These little story beats could easily have made two episodes. Instead, rushed into a single episode like this, it feels much less effective than it could have been. Nothing is left to breathe, like I said about the second episode, which is unfortunate because the little moments between the characters are, really, the best parts of the show. For all the faults you can level at TSCC about its pacing - too fast in Season 1, too slow in Season 2 - they certainly nail their characters. They feel trapped by the plot, which rushes onward, heedless of their needs, wants or concerns and, while I get that it's kind of fitting for a show about fighting the future, I don't really think it works. It makes the show feel futile which, personally, I feel goes against the central thrust of the series - things can change, nothing is set, there is no fate but what we make for ourselves. John might not be fated to be a leader, Sarah might not be fated to die of cancer and Cameron might not be fated to be a killing automaton.

Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Mar 18, 2014

Caufman
May 7, 2007
The actors who play Sarah and Andy are actually close in age, but whenever I watch this episode, it totally looks like Sarah is a cougar prowling for a much younger man. I like their awkward chemistry, but then Andy's partner tells him that "she will never sleep with you." :smith:

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

Caufman posted:

The actors who play Sarah and Andy are actually close in age, but whenever I watch this episode, it totally looks like Sarah is a cougar prowling for a much younger man. I like their awkward chemistry, but then Andy's partner tells him that "she will never sleep with you." :smith:

Seriously? Because I totally got the cougar vibe, too. Andy looks like he's in his late twenties, way younger than Sarah.

Irish Joe
Jul 23, 2007

by Lowtax

Milky Moor posted:

If Andy is close to perfecting Skynet, Sarah will kill him. For some reason, I always forget that Sarah has never killed anyone. I don't know why this is, given that she doesn't kill Miles Dyson.

Well, T2 Sarah is very hard and very aggressive. For instance, her very first line in the movie is in reference to the time she broke her doctor's kneecap. Its easy to assume based on how violent and unstable she is that she would have killed someone at some point.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

Irish Joe posted:

Well, T2 Sarah is very hard and very aggressive. For instance, her very first line in the movie is in reference to the time she broke her doctor's kneecap. Its easy to assume based on how violent and unstable she is that she would have killed someone at some point.

Yeah. And probably a bit of assumption because it's an action movie and action movie protagonists just kill people as a matter of course.

Caufman
May 7, 2007

Milky Moor posted:

Yeah. And probably a bit of assumption because it's an action movie and action movie protagonists just kill people as a matter of course.

This is so very true. I watched T2 when I was way too young, but it was definitely one of the first action movies I watched that introduced me to the notion that killing is psychologically difficult for normal people.

Er, as normal as Sarah Connor is.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


Irish Joe posted:

Well, T2 Sarah is very hard and very aggressive. For instance, her very first line in the movie is in reference to the time she broke her doctor's kneecap. Its easy to assume based on how violent and unstable she is that she would have killed someone at some point.

Though the differences between T2 Sarah and T:SCC Sarah make sense, because when we first saw her in T2 she'd been in a mental asylum for awhile, whereas in T:SCC she was living somewhat of a "normal" life with John.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

Say what you will, but this show respected the first two movies WAY more than the second two movies did.

And rightfully shat on the third.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'
It's pretty interesting that a lot of the people involved with TSCC also worked on Terminator 3. It's like Terminator 3 was a rough draft for a lot of the ideas and concepts that form TSCC - female Terminator, Sarah's cancer, malleable-but-possibly inevitable timeline, etc.

I haven't watched T3 in probably a decade and have no real desire to see what else they might have prototyped there.

Tokubetsu
Dec 18, 2007

Love Is Not Enough

Milky Moor posted:

It's pretty interesting that a lot of the people involved with TSCC also worked on Terminator 3. It's like Terminator 3 was a rough draft for a lot of the ideas and concepts that form TSCC - female Terminator, Sarah's cancer, malleable-but-possibly inevitable timeline, etc.

I haven't watched T3 in probably a decade and have no real desire to see what else they might have prototyped there.

The only thing I really really liked about T3, and what I think they brought to TSCC was the idea that you can't prevent the war. You could only prepare for the worst, and hope for the best.

Mills
Jun 13, 2003

KilGrey posted:

As a TV viewer I can't think of another situation where the death of a main character was ever handled in the same way and for that I appreciate it.


House of Cards?

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

Tokubetsu posted:

The only thing I really really liked about T3, and what I think they brought to TSCC was the idea that you can't prevent the war. You could only prepare for the worst, and hope for the best.

Personally, I don't really like it. I always felt that T2 was pretty firmly on the side of having the apocalypse been prevented.

However, I do like how TSCC handled it - maybe it is possible! - and I am an absolute sucker for apocalyptic 'storm on the horizon' sort of fiction. Mass Effect, Vampire: The Masquerade, the Expanse series, Blindsight, etc. I love it.

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

You’re telling me Peter Parker is ...... Spider-man!?

Milky Moor posted:

It's pretty interesting that a lot of the people involved with TSCC also worked on Terminator 3. It's like Terminator 3 was a rough draft for a lot of the ideas and concepts that form TSCC - female Terminator, Sarah's cancer, malleable-but-possibly inevitable timeline, etc.

I haven't watched T3 in probably a decade and have no real desire to see what else they might have prototyped there.

I thought Sarah's cancer was due to Linda Hamilton wanting nothing to do with one of her ex-husbands movies, and she was sitting on sweet Titanic money?

haveblue
Aug 15, 2005



Toilet Rascal

bobkatt013 posted:

I thought Sarah's cancer was due to Linda Hamilton wanting nothing to do with one of her ex-husbands movies, and she was sitting on sweet Titanic money?

James Cameron had almost nothing to do with T3, although I would completely believe she wouldn't want anything to do with it for any reason.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin
I think what I hated most about the new films (well the last one anyway) was that Skynet spoke to the protagonist. I always liked it being this distant evil who is playing a game so big that it doesn't personally bother interacting with humans. Made it much more scary.

WarLocke
Jun 6, 2004

You are being watched. :allears:

DarkCrawler posted:

I think what I hated most about the new films (well the last one anyway) was that Skynet spoke to the protagonist. I always liked it being this distant evil who is playing a game so big that it doesn't personally bother interacting with humans. Made it much more scary.

SkyNet speaking to people is dumb just like giving the Borg a queen was dumb. The faceless, monolithic, alien threat is a better one IMO.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

Tokubetsu posted:

The only thing I really really liked about T3, and what I think they brought to TSCC was the idea that you can't prevent the war. You could only prepare for the worst, and hope for the best.
That's what I hated the most about it. The whole resolution of T2 and Sarah and Reese's philosophy was "no fate." I mean, I get it. You have to continue the franchise, but way to poo poo all over the resolution of the best movie in the series.

WarLocke posted:

SkyNet speaking to people is dumb just like giving the Borg a queen was dumb. The faceless, monolithic, alien threat is a better one IMO.
When I read the post this is a response too, I thought the exact same thing. Rendered two terrifying presences completely toothless. Ugh.

Muppetjedi
Mar 17, 2010
I always assumed that Cheri was a sort of proto-Riley, but because of the short series, that particular storyline was cancelled before it really went anywhere.

Irish Joe
Jul 23, 2007

by Lowtax

WarLocke posted:

SkyNet speaking to people is dumb just like giving the Borg a queen was dumb. The faceless, monolithic, alien threat is a better one IMO.

The Borg Queen wasn't dumb, but the explanation for why there was a Borg Queen was dumb. The Borg were just handed their asses twice by a virus/rogue borg infiltrating their ranks, so it makes perfect sense for them to create a semi-autonomous unit capable of overriding malicious code/influences in the collective. However, it makes sense only in response to the Federation's actions (and, more specifically, Picard's memories). Having her "always been there," though, was just stupid.

WarLocke
Jun 6, 2004

You are being watched. :allears:

Irish Joe posted:

The Borg Queen wasn't dumb, but the explanation for why there was a Borg Queen was dumb. The Borg were just handed their asses twice by a virus/rogue borg infiltrating their ranks, so it makes perfect sense for them to create a semi-autonomous unit capable of overriding malicious code/influences in the collective. However, it makes sense only in response to the Federation's actions (and, more specifically, Picard's memories). Having her "always been there," though, was just stupid.

No the Queen was dumb as an entire concept. It immediately gave the Borg a face and voice that characters could relate to. The entire reason the Borg were scary was that you couldn't reason with them, you couldn't bargain with them, because they were alien. As soon as you add the Queen all that uncaring malice evaporates. The whole point of the Borg was that there were no individuals within it.

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MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003




I'm sure that if it had had a reasonable chance at concluding then TSCC would have averted the war. I felt like they were going for the point that avoiding progress was inevitable, which is why trying to avert AI kept failing. The only real chance was to raise it with compassion. Cameron and John Henry.

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