Europa Universalis IV: Is that... is that backwards singing?

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Rumda: Nov 4, 2009; Moth Lesbian Comrade

Last Emperor posted:

There is an observed button, never used it though.

I suppose it's just a matter of click that when you join up and you should be able to see all our views?

You can see every thing with no FoW

# ? Feb 1, 2014 20:44

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 20:10

Vequeth: Jul 12, 2008

Ill be streaming tonight's MP session if anyone wants to watch: Stream is over

Nothing to see for the next 20 or so mins though as it takes a while to set up.

Vequeth fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Feb 2, 2014

# ? Feb 1, 2014 20:56

Mans: Sep 14, 2011; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

double nine posted:

?? Endless potential to get a claim throne CB on your most hated enemies because you grabbed a RM when they didn't hate you yet?

How is that a bad thing? As Poland I got a personal union with Russia AND Denmark doing that! It's amazing

Because i want to do something useful with my diplomatic relations instead of having a worthless royal marriage with Lithuania who is permantently PUed under Poland and as Scandinavia i'd first prefer to gouge my eyes out before waging a war in Eastern Europe against big powers? Because it's a really dumb mechanic that makes no sense? Because maybe after the start of the game i might feel that a marriage with some other kingdom might be preferable to a royal marriage i did 120 years ago?

What, do people just keep feeding endless supplies of children into another kingdom without the king even noticing?

Fighting for royal marriages was one of the most important diplomatic things to do up until the 18th century. I get it that this game doesn't need to be historical but you'd think woman wouldn't be eternal vampires that forever haunt the court of another kingdom.

Soviet_Russia posted:

The 1.4 patch changed it so that Royal Marriages would no longer end when of the married countries entered a Regency. Though I believe they still end when there is a change in ruling Dynasty, I've never checked to see exactly what conditions will result in the loss of a RM, or whether getting a new Dynasty will get you a new set of RMs. If you have Diplomatic Ideas maxed out or are the Papal controller you will not suffer any negative penalties for manually breaking a RM. (maybe -1 prestige?)

I'm the papal controller and i still get the stability hit. I loving hate suffering stability hits, specially with dumb things like this.

# ? Feb 1, 2014 21:02

Chickpea Roar: Jan 11, 2006; Merdre!

Mans posted:

I'm the papal controller and i still get the stability hit. I loving hate suffering stability hits, specially with dumb things like this.

That shouldn't happen. I'm using the latest official patch and I'm breaking marriages left and right without stab hits as papal controller.

# ? Feb 1, 2014 21:18

fuck off Batman: Oct 14, 2013; Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah!

Nightblade posted:

That shouldn't happen. I'm using the latest official patch and I'm breaking marriages left and right without stab hits as papal controller.

Do you also have maxed diplomatic idea? Reportedly it works now.

# ? Feb 1, 2014 21:37

Mans: Sep 14, 2011; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

....for gently caress sakes i just double checked and Castille stole my control.

I feel dumb, sorry.

Still hate the mechanic though!

# ? Feb 1, 2014 21:37

Kilonum: Sep 30, 2002; You know where you are? You're in the suburbs, baby. You're gonna drive.

Vequeth posted:

Ill be streaming tonight's MP session if anyone wants to watch: http://www.twitch.tv/vequeth

Nothing to see for the next 20 or so mins though as it takes a while to set up.

also streaming on the opposite side of the globe: http://hitbox.tv/Kilonum

# ? Feb 1, 2014 22:32

DrSunshine: Mar 23, 2009; Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!

What's the fastest possible tech advancement rate? Just reading the wiki, it seems that that would be found in Ming, if:

Ming supports the Eunuch faction: -75% tech cost
Ming takes "Scientific Revolution" in Innovative ideas: -5% tech cost
Ming builds a university: -5% tech cost.

For a total of -85% tech costs.

But then again, Ming is in the Chinese tech group, so it's got the slowest advancement. Does it lose the ability to support the factions if it Westernizes?

If that's the case, maybe it's Russia, France, or Bohemia, if:

They've got their unique national idea that gives -10% tech cost
They are a Republic and have full Plutocratic ideals: -10% tech cost
They take "Scientific Revolution": -5% tech cost
They build a University: -5% tech cost
They are in the HRE: -10% tech cost
First Imperial reform is passed: -2% tech cost

For a total of -42% tech cost.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 01:38

ThatBasqueGuy: Feb 14, 2013; someone introduce jojo to lazyb

DrSunshine posted:

What's the fastest possible tech advancement rate? Just reading the wiki, it seems that that would be found in Ming, if:

Ming supports the Eunuch faction: -75% tech cost

Ming takes "Scientific Revolution" in Innovative ideas: -5% tech cost

Ming builds a university: -5% tech cost.

For a total of -85% tech costs.

But then again, Ming is in the Chinese tech group, so it's got the slowest advancement. Does it lose the ability to support the factions if it Westernizes?

If that's the case, maybe it's Russia, France, or Bohemia, if:

They've got their unique national idea that gives -10% tech cost

They are a Republic and have full Plutocratic ideals: -10% tech cost

They take "Scientific Revolution": -5% tech cost

They build a University: -5% tech cost

They are in the HRE: -10% tech cost

First Imperial reform is passed: -2% tech cost

For a total of -42% tech cost.

I think they can if Manchu forms them. Or was super Manchu patched out? Alternatively, also somehow be a protectorate while Chinese.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 01:54

Pellisworth: Jun 20, 2005

DrSunshine posted:

What's the fastest possible tech advancement rate? Just reading the wiki, it seems that that would be found in Ming, if:

Ming supports the Eunuch faction: -75% tech cost

Ming takes "Scientific Revolution" in Innovative ideas: -5% tech cost

Ming builds a university: -5% tech cost.

For a total of -85% tech costs.

But then again, Ming is in the Chinese tech group, so it's got the slowest advancement. Does it lose the ability to support the factions if it Westernizes?

If that's the case, maybe it's Russia, France, or Bohemia, if:

They've got their unique national idea that gives -10% tech cost

They are a Republic and have full Plutocratic ideals: -10% tech cost

They take "Scientific Revolution": -5% tech cost

They build a University: -5% tech cost

They are in the HRE: -10% tech cost

First Imperial reform is passed: -2% tech cost

For a total of -42% tech cost.

Worth noting that there are several events tied to the Innovative idea group that give -5% to all tech costs and other individual bonuses. Some of the idea group associated events can give you pretty reliable bonuses and unfortunately that's information which is pretty opaque to most players unless you've taken those idea groups a few times. I'm thinking of Innovative and Quality in particular which routinely give you 5-10% tech cost reduction and discipline bonuses from events, respectively.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 02:02

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

ThatBasqueGuy posted:

I think they can if Manchu forms them. Or was super Manchu patched out? Alternatively, also somehow be a protectorate while Chinese.

Whether patched out or not, it was clearly a bug: for example buildings are not supposed to be free.
The faction system is meant not as bonuses, but to counteract penalties Celestial Empire
gives, like, say, +50% technology cost. And yes, faction system is supposed to go away
Westernized, so Eunuch faction is really just conditional -25% cost on top of the Chinese group.

Anyway, this discussion is missing -10% tech cost from min piety from Muslims...

# ? Feb 2, 2014 04:36

Cynic Jester: Apr 11, 2009; Let's put a simile on that face
A dazzling simile
Twinkling like the night sky

OddObserver posted:

Whether patched out or not, it was clearly a bug: for example buildings are not supposed to be free.
The faction system is meant not as bonuses, but to counteract penalties Celestial Empire
gives, like, say, +50% technology cost. And yes, faction system is supposed to go away
Westernized, so Eunuch faction is really just conditional -25% cost on top of the Chinese group.

Anyway, this discussion is missing -10% tech cost from min piety from Muslims...

Can you be muslim and still get the membership bonuses from HRE?

# ? Feb 2, 2014 04:40

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

Don't know; do you get kicked out if you convert? (Getting Russia into HRE would be pretty drat hard anyway).

Also, really awesome (admin 5) Muslim rulers can also do this:

islamic_scholarly_centre = {
technology_cost = -0.05
idea_cost = -0.05
#icon = 9
}

Looking at 00_event_modifiers.txt there are tons of others that touch tech cost, though, and some are quite huge.
Russia for example can get:
liberal_constitution = {
global_revolt_risk = 1
global_tax_modifier = -0.1
technology_cost = -0.1
}

... except it has mean 166 years to happen in a 1700-1800 window, so pretty good chance of not seeing it.

Then abolishing serfdom as Russia can give -15% tech cost, that one is 1750-1822 with same MTTH, so you're not likely
to see that either

# ? Feb 2, 2014 04:52

420 Gank Mid: Dec 26, 2008; WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!

Pellisworth posted:

Worth noting that there are several events tied to the Innovative idea group that give -5% to all tech costs and other individual bonuses. Some of the idea group associated events can give you pretty reliable bonuses and unfortunately that's information which is pretty opaque to most players unless you've taken those idea groups a few times. I'm thinking of Innovative and Quality in particular which routinely give you 5-10% tech cost reduction and discipline bonuses from events, respectively.

Religious ideas gives common events that give free stability (reverse comets)
Diplomatic gives events that can either get diplomatic insult CB or give +20-60 relations with multiple neighbors
Exploration gives you events with +global settler rate

They also have negative events, Diplomacy gets you an 'Inbred Diplomats' event that either spends DIP points to replace them or get a negative to claim fabrication for a few years and Defensive ideas gets you 'Cowardly tactics' that lower your prestige.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 05:02

Cynic Jester: Apr 11, 2009; Let's put a simile on that face
A dazzling simile
Twinkling like the night sky

The problem with stacking a bunch of tech cost discounts is that they stack with the ahead of time increase, instead of working on the recalculated cost, so you will usually only be a tech ahead or two ahead of everyone else, compared to EU3, where with the right stacking you could end up 10 or 20 levels ahead pretty easily.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 05:04

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Also, Russia gets events related to serfdom that allow you to cut your tech costs by at least 20%, across the board, until end of game.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 05:30

I ride bikes all day: Sep 10, 2007; I shitposted in the same thread for 2 years and all I got was this red text av. Ask me about my autism!; College Slice

How would I go about turning Norway into the Jomsvikings and Norse without changing anything else? I've run 2 Scandinavia games in Ck2 without them ever showing up, and besides, I like the default 1444 map better than the mess it becomes with the converter. My last game I deliberately tried to reign in the pagan hordes, and Christendom still got crushed between the Umayyad/Golden Horde/Norse three way.

Anyways, it doesn't seem like that big of a change, but I've no idea how to do it. Help please.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 05:51

Baudin: Dec 31, 2009

After about 15 attempts so far I seem to have gotten the Byzantine Empire back on its feet:

In case its hard to read, I have the ottomans as a vassal, and have fed them their territory back. Need to get religious ideas to convert those provinces though before I annex them.

Thanks very much for the guide - a lot of what causes attempts to fail is a single mistake (such as an attack just before the ottomans get a white peace with an aggressive nation), or a failure to note a great opportunity. Another issue is I forgot to build enough galleys numerous times, or fell prey to "my allies are all attacking each other" syndrome.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 09:39

Zodium: Jun 19, 2004

Cynic Jester posted:

Ethiopia in gooniversalis is super fun to play. Orthodox with the muslim tech group and you can colonize everything before the euros even think of going past the cape. And so much gold.

Holy crap, you weren't kidding. ETH has a crazy overpowered starting situation in Gooniversalis: Muslim tech, surrounded by African countries you can Full Annex on all sides, a gold mine, and easy control of Aden. It's 1525 and I'm making literally 100 ducats/month.

Baudin posted:

After about 15 attempts so far I seem to have gotten the Byzantine Empire back on its feet:

In case its hard to read, I have the ottomans as a vassal, and have fed them their territory back. Need to get religious ideas to convert those provinces though before I annex them.

Thanks very much for the guide - a lot of what causes attempts to fail is a single mistake (such as an attack just before the ottomans get a white peace with an aggressive nation), or a failure to note a great opportunity. Another issue is I forgot to build enough galleys numerous times, or fell prey to "my allies are all attacking each other" syndrome.

This is why Byzantium is my favorite starting play, and really, one of my favorite EU4 plays at all. It's a problem with a counterintuitive solution that requires exacting adherence to strategy and realization of every spontaneous opportunity, but given those, it can be pulled off reliably.

Cynic Jester posted:

Can you be muslim and still get the membership bonuses from HRE?

Sure, you just can't join as a Muslim. With enough exploits, you can be Muslim Emperor:

1. Start as an elector or become one, set vote for yourself.
2. Flip to Islam.
3. Vassalize every other elector.
4. Annex every other elector simultaneously.
5. Wait for Emperor to die.

Zodium fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Feb 2, 2014

# ? Feb 2, 2014 10:27

Knuc U Kinte: Aug 17, 2004

What's the guide for Byzantium?

# ? Feb 2, 2014 10:35

Last Emperor: Oct 30, 2009

This is the strategy Soviet used:

Soviet_Russia posted:

The most successful starts I've had are still permutations of the "Ally Serbia Day 1, Attack Albania day 2" strategy but there are a lot of ways to go about this, the important thing is simply to get a truce with the Ottomans at all cost to buy more time as you secure Alliances from powerful Christian countries close enough to help you. (Poland/Lithuania are probably the easiest to get involved in your wars, especially when they are combined by a Union. Austria, Aragon/Spain, Venice, and sometimes I've even heard of the Mamluks helping out but I've rarely been able to get any of them in on the crucial early wars)

Step By Step this is my most sure-fire way to start a Byzantine game.

Day 1
Load up the game, Make your leader a general, buy an admiral, and check to see if Serbia will ally you (do not accept a Royal Marriage offer from them just yet). If Serbia wont ally you or you get absolutely terrible leaders consider reloading for a more generous starting situation. When you're happy with your beginnings send Serbia an alliance offer, build 1 regiment of infantry in three provinces(you want a final total of 1k Cav and 7k Infantry), assign your leader to the army (you can use your heir if he is a much better commander but losing the heir can result in pretender wars as your leader is already a little old to make a new batch of heirs) and your Admiral to the fleet, load up the 4k troops you can fit in your fleet and sail for Zeta (Serbian coast near Albania). Declare the Ottomans as your Rival (this will get you extra prestige when you win and Poland, Lithuania, and Austria all occasionally declare them rivals too getting you improved relations) You'll have ~20 ducats left at this point, and you can either use it to queue up some galleys to bolster your fleet or to hire an adviser (early on the only adviser I find worth the money are military ones, +morale +reinforcement rate and +manpower modifier are all very good but you really just want to stay as far ahead or on par with the ottomans as you can on mil tactics/new units)
Advance one day

Day 2
Serbia should have accepted the alliance so send your fleet to land troops in their port. At this point check on Albania, 99/100 they will be unallied but as of patch 1.3 Aragon will almost always ally them eventually even as they are getting crushed by the OE, I've never seen them allied by day 2 but it could happen, if it does I would restart. Declare war on Albania DO NOT CALL ALLIES you will see why soon. Unpause and keep the game on low speed as you really dont want to be wasting any time.

The First Albanian-Ottoman-Byzantine War
I'm sure the Sultan in Edirne must chuckle to himself every time he sees the puny Greeks contest him for what must certainly be the poorest province in Europe. But Greek-Turk hostilities do not begin and a de-facto alliance against the Albanians holds for now. Get your entire 8k army into Zeta and send a diplomat to either Ragusa or Bosnia to get Military Access, as soon as your troops are safely outside Serbian territory, park your fleet off the coast of Albania blockading the coastal province. The blockade should get you enough warscore to vassalize them, make sure you have both of your diplomats at home and ready for work before you send the peace offer.

Vassalize Albania and demand as many ducats as you can get (sometimes they wont quite accept, wait a few months and let them realize the hopelessness of their war with the Turk and they'll come around.) As soon as Albania is your subject you will inherit their war with the Ottomans. This is a war you can not win so pause on the first day to lose as little as possible. Hide your money by queuing up galleys or infantries and use your 2nd diplomat to sue for peace immediately and accept their demands. Before patch 1.4 they would usually accept 30-60 ducats or sometimes even a 'concede defeat' option, since CoP came out I've never seen them accept this again. Now they seem to always demand the same thing, release Athens and Albania as sovereign nations. It may sound like a bad idea to go into a war knowing you'll only lose a vassal and everything you won from the first war, but you have cores on Athens and Albania, and this forced release ends up speeding up the re-integration process quite a bit.

The First Byzantine-Ottoman Truce
So, you just lost your only vassal, you're down to 3 provinces, the clock is ticking 5 years down until the Turks come for you, and your army is hiding with their tails between their legs in Ragusa or Bosnia, what now?

Now is when the Phoenix rises.

As soon as your diplomat returns with the Olive Branch from Edirne, you send him with a sword to Serbia. Those Balkan Bastards didnt want to march to war with you when the Ottomans attacked your vassal Albania (or so Byzantine revisionists will insist) so declare war on your first Balkan subject-to-be and make a dash right for their main army. Your 8,000 troops at full morale (your troops should never fight before this, so you dont have to keep the budget full all game, just make sure they're ready to strike when the time comes) should be able to wipe their unsuspecting stack of 5-6 almost always sitting at half morale or lower in the Serbian Capitol. When their army is dealt with split into 4 groups of 2 to siege down all their provinces. As soon as the diplomacy cooldown with the Ottomans run out, send another emmissary to Edirne to 'send a warning' to the Ottomans not to declare war, as you will have a truce you shouldn't even get called to war against them but this will prevent them from doing the same to you for the duration of the warning (10-20 years?)

During the sieges you may want to send one diplomat to Poland to begin improving relations. Check their diplomacy page for what countries they have declared as rivals, They will almost always have the Teutonic Knights as a rival, but that's not the best use of a rival slot for you. If they have Bohemia declared as a rival (50/50) this is much better because Bohemia is a common rival of Austria and Hungary as well, either way you'll need the +20 relations so set one up. You may also want to check Bosnia/Wallachia's attitudes toward forming an alliance with you, they often declare rivals with Serbia and will like you jumping in to show them what for (for a very brief window considering what we'll do next)

When you have fully sieged down Serbia you will want to only annex Zeta (gotta get those fleet limits up as fast as possible) and vassalize the rest of Serbia. If you managed to get another Balkan state to ally with you during this war, send them a call to arms. The AI will always refuse a call to arms after 60 days of war, but them refusing will still get you the same casus belli you just used on Serbia. You can then use that CB to pull the same trick on Bosnia/Wallachia. With the new changes to vassal feeding you can still feed all of Bosnia or Wallachia to your vassal Serbia if the Serbian Duke/King has a militaristic personality (you can now see the personalities in the diplomacy page for each nation, Warlike/Militaristic is a little hatchet in a box)

Depending on luck with sieges this war should have lasted no more than a year or two, keep an eye on Poland and get a Royal Marriage as soon as relations are high enough, shortly after that you should be able to get an alliance (it takes ~3 years to get the full +100 opinion boost and depending on a few variables you should need +60-90 along with the boost from common Rivals and RM but all that gets you a huge army to come defend the empire (I've seen the Pol-Lit PU machine send several 20-30k stacks at the Ottomans) If PU has not formed by this time you might consider sending a diplomat to start currying favor in Lithuania (the PU event sometimes just doesn't fire, but you can still get both of them to come to war with you, it just takes time and another diplo relations slot)

This is when the 'formula' of my opener wears thin. But the rogues gallery stays the same, it's all about picking the weakest target and pouncing on them for all they've got. Your Polish Alliance will act as a great deterrent for war with the Ottomans, the biggest mistake you can make at this point is looking at the ledger and your alliances huge troop disparity vs the Ottomans and attacking them when the truce is up. They have friends. Crimea, Algiers, the "Qunluyu" countries. And knowing your luck they probably already had the Janissary events fire. Let them come to you. Keep your manpower as high as possible, keep relations up with Poland, and when they attack for Constantinople, trap them in Europe while your allies run them through a Slavic/Polish/Belorussian meatgrinder a few times and your own troops sip daiquiris in Cyprus. Speaking of Cyprus, these are the people you should be declaring war on in the meanwhile.

Greek OPMs
These are the small islands and counties that share your Greek/Orthodox population and or you have a core on in the Eastern Med. Albania, Athens, Trebizond, Cyprus, Rhodes, Naxos, Crete, Corfu, and Kaffa

Most of these places start out under someone else's protection; Venice, Mamluks, Austria, or Georgia. They will however occasionally break off and rebel and join you without a war, this can be helped along by the diplomatic support rebels option, or just prayed for. They do warrant constant monitoring though, as with a little vigilance you will almost always find a few of these places vulnerable and it's a great opportunity to mop up prestige and an extra province or two.

The Balkans
If there are any independent states left here you should always be on the lookout to snatch them up. Not much to say here, they're easy targets who very rarely form alliances outside of each other. Early on if you get every Serbian province they will become an accepted culture but the window for that closes quickly as there just isn't enough base tax there. You may want to convert culture in a few of the richer nodes (Munteia/Serbia/Zeta/Ragusa/Dalmatia) and leave the rest.

Hungary
With Poland or Austria as an ally, it is pretty easy to put Hungary to the sword. As they often ally -> vassalize Ragusa it will be impossible to expand West without meeting the Hungarians on the field. With 1-2 allies you can just hide your armies in Greece until your friends clear out a the big armies and begin your work sieging down all the turf you want. If you already took Dalmatia from Venice I would suggest releasing Croatia as a vassal before doing this as you can easily get all Hungary's Crotian provinces in one war (including Ragusa) and maybe one or two more that could be fed to a Militaristic Serbia or Croatia.

Venice
Your first Big Boy war. Austria or Hungary sometimes help in these wars if you chose to ally them, but ultimately you will have to beat them yourself at sea to be able to get anything out of this war, and if you can do that you can probably take them 1v1. The Venetian Fleet is very competent and usually has a 0/18/10/8 stack, give or take a few ships. The best way to take them is to park your fleet somewhere in the Adriatic/Ionian or the Straits of Messina and wait until their trade fleet (and hopefully just the trade fleet) lands on top of you before declaring war. You will still want at least 18-20 galleys (trade ships will not pay for themselves this early on for Byzantium) and 6-8 cogs along with a talented admiral or naval morale advisor(the extra dip points can also be used to hire a new better admiral). But it is amazingly profitable as once you crush their fleet send a few regiments to siege down their safe harbor and kick the snot out of them a few more times. You will be rewarded with up to a dozen new ships (at this stage I usually disband the expensive trade ships to save on costs and maximize my military fleet) and free reign to siege down the numerous Venetian provinces where you have a core. If left alone for long enough, Venice will often invade either Albania, Cyprus, Athens, or diplo-vassalize The Knights of Rhodes, so depending on how successful they've been you might not even be able to fleece them in a single war. But in most of my games, the crushing of Venice is sweet payback for memories of the Third Crusade and the Latin Empire that gets me one step closer to fighting The powerful Turks. Istria and Dalmatia are rich provinces on par with Athens (5 base tax?) and still just outside the HRE's grasp to keep them off your back for another few decades. I would recommend against taking any HRE provinces this early in the game as you will have no choice but to turn them over. Rather wait until Venice is down to 2 provinces and make a vassal of them. Austria is usually fastidious about removing Venetian cores they ought to still have a few. (don't Annex Venice as it will be ages before you can affordably core+convert it.

Aragon
Unless you can get Castille on your side, never to go war with Aragon, they will shipwreck your fleets and leave you helpless to defend your home. But if you've got the allies to take them a successful war can be very lucrative, it could get you a vassal Naples or Sicily while making sure that Spain or other Western powers wont dominate the Mediterranean a century down the line.

Italy
Rome, the Ultimate target for any Byzantine Reconquista, and her surrounding provinces are within your grasp, even before you retake Greece and the Balkans, Italia is sectioned off amongst various nations, none of them any larger than you are for the moment. Tuscany, The Papal State, Ancona, Naples(independent), Siena, Mantua, and Genoa in particular are vulnerable either because they are puny or not protected by the HRE. Declaring war directly on an HRE minor is suicide this early as the Emp will almost always defend them, but there are a few tricks to get around that.

Attacking a Non HRE ally. Commonly in my games, Venice will find an Ally in Tuscany, the Papal State, or Genoa, though this makes the initial hurdle of overcoming their fleet more difficult (those extra 5-10 ships make a huge difference) this just means that you can get 100% warscore worth of provinces twice from the same war. For this to work you'll usually need enough cogs to transport the bulk of your army at once (8-12) but making a vassal out of Tuscany, taking Kaffa from Genoa, or just getting your toe in the boot is often worth it, as Italy will not stay this divided forever. If Naples breaks off it is very cheap to core and convert those poorer South Italian provinces, while anything you take north of Roma should probably be left to vassals. Having Western Tech group vassals can be very helpful. Be mindful though, as Catholic vassals who are given Roma (not even sure if they would accept such an offer post 1.4 patch) receive an event of the Pope demanding the province returned to him and seem to accept it more often than not.

The Mamluks
As they begin the game protecting the independence of Cyprus, and holding 3 of the 5 Patriarchates you will no doubt eventually go to war with the Mamluks as well.
Their fleet is comparable to Venice at the start of the game, but they are rich enough to build a much larger fleet as time drags on, even mixing in tall ships with the usual galley/tradeship Mediterranean fare. Scout them out, and if you can take them at sea, go ahead and declare war on Cyprus. If the Venetians or Mamluks have already taken Cyprus and it is no longer independent, it's best to postpone war with the Mamluks until you're more established, and either war with Venice for it, or support Patriot/Orthodox rebels in Cyprus.

The Barbary Coast
Tripoli and Tunisia aren't the most helpful of wars, but hey, with this rough of a start you should take what you can get. The +dr slots from the Diplomacy ideas tree (which I highly recommend as Byzantium as a first idea) means you can afford to keep sub-optimal vassals. Signs of weakness are usually if the Mamluks are having a bad start these two nations will either break free or stay independent of them. Both can be vassalized in a single war, and beyond the monthly revenue their fleets can really help out in a pinch. If you eventually go on to getting religious ideas it can be easy to annex them, convert them and re-release them as independent Orthodox nations, or just releasing them if you need new relations after they've served their purpose.

Whatever Muslim/Horde country that gobbled up Georgia
Georgia doesnt always get dogpiled right away, hell I've even seen it dominate the region one out of a few dozen games. But it is very common that either Crimea, Aq Qunluyo, Qara Qunluyu, or even Candar snag one or most of the Georgian provinces. If it is Candar (Northern Turkish Minor) that made it so far East they must've gone through Trebizond first, so you can declare war on them with the CB for your core province and take Trebizond + Imereti(coastal neighbor to Treb and part of Georgia) from them in a war. Fabricate a claim on the nearest weak horde/muslim country to hold a piece of Georgia. As soon as your claim is ready release Georgia as a vassal and wait for a good time to declare war. In the war you can return cores to Georgia to plump them up. Circassia is an incredibly strong province as it is the only gold mine you might reasonably get your hands on soon. (Tirol in Austria is the next closest but it'll be awhile before you can beat Austria in the Alps)

The Ottoman Empire
Every Byzantine game begins, and sometimes ends with a war against the Turk. Pray that enough of your allies answer the Call to Arms when the time comes, they must be the hammer to your fleet's anvil. When the Ottomans declare war on your, the CB will almost always be for your Capitol city, this is good! They will bring troops into Edirne or Burgas before the war begins, they know your fleets would block them out otherwise, but usually they dont bring everything over at once. Blocking the strait will prevent any retreat or reinforcements, and give your Polish/Lithuanian/Autrian allies a single target to dogpile. The biggest advantage to letting the OE declare on you is that they are less likely to bring allies. Crimea still joins in sometimes, but Algiers/Qunluyu and whatever other countries they have allied usually dont join offensive wars for the Ottomans. If Crimea joins the war, the AI Lith/Pol will almost always rush to them while Constantinople is sieged, this isnt always a bad turn of events. If you can force a separate peace with Crimea that annuls treaties with the Ottomans, they will not be able to take the long walk across the Black Sea, and whatever troops they have left in Europe is the sum total of lives you must take to reclaim Greece and the Southern Balkans.

The war isnt always this clean though, as long as you have naval superiority there is always a path to victory. If you have used your navy well early on in the war, you should have crushed their fleet entirely, this is hugely beneficial as it allows you to split your fleet and scout the location and troop movements of the Ottomans, while maximizing your blockades. With the time it takes to march across the Black sea while you are hopping back and forth in a matter of days lets you siege provinces in either Greece or Anatolia even when you cannot defeat any army the ottomans have on land. Keep them marching back and forth, blockade his ports, siege the cities back and forth until both of you are at such high war exhaustion that rebels are liberating your cities and conquering his! (dont worry about all the Turkish national rebels in Anatolia, they are stuck in Anatolia forever (will never march around the Black Sea), but as soon as you have Orthodox/Greek Patriots you can hold the Strait just a little longer and you can still pull off what must be one of the most desperate victories in the game. While you can only demand provinces you have sieged yourself (not rebel controlled seiges) rebels can make any province in the game flip to you including Edirne, so rebels capture the capitol you might want to keep the war going a year or two and you can kick them out of Europe in the first war (this rarely ever happens, and tends to be a very messy war with a lot of consequences economy/manpower wise)

# ? Feb 2, 2014 10:37

Knuc U Kinte: Aug 17, 2004

Hmm I really wanna give that a go.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 10:48

Knuc U Kinte: Aug 17, 2004

Hmm. Ottomans refuse to accept anything but total annexation.

edit: Got it right now. What do you suggest I do if the OE only wants to end the vassalisation of Albania?

Knuc U Kinte fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Feb 2, 2014

# ? Feb 2, 2014 11:15

Zodium: Jun 19, 2004

Knuc U Kinte posted:

Hmm. Ottomans refuse to accept anything but total annexation.

edit: Got it right now. What do you suggest I do if the OE only wants to end the vassalisation of Albania?

End the vassalization of Albania.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 11:48

Knuc U Kinte: Aug 17, 2004

Haha. Best start ever where I managed to hop through Serbia, Bosnia and Ragusa during the first peace with the OE ruined when Poland refused my CtA against ragusa when I vassalised Bosnia. I wish the AI wouldn't automatically CtA allies who won't accept. I guess my only hope is Austria coming to the party in time. I hate how the human player can;t overlook dishonor when survival is on the line. It's ridiculous.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 12:13

RabidWeasel: Aug 4, 2007; Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!

It's a bug, and the main reason I haven't played any EU4 in a while. I just can't be bothered to do save fuckery every time it breaks something and I'm sure it's going to gently caress around with AI-AI alliances too.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 16:46

420 Gank Mid: Dec 26, 2008; WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!

Knuc U Kinte posted:

Haha. Best start ever where I managed to hop through Serbia, Bosnia and Ragusa during the first peace with the OE ruined when Poland refused my CtA against ragusa when I vassalised Bosnia. I wish the AI wouldn't automatically CtA allies who won't accept. I guess my only hope is Austria coming to the party in time. I hate how the human player can;t overlook dishonor when survival is on the line. It's ridiculous.

Early on as Byzantium I will never check the "Call Allies" box in the DoW menu. It's just too risky for that exact reason. I will look at the box to see if any allies might come, and then call them in manually via 'Alliance Options' in the diplomacy menu. The only thing that has really screwed me over is occasionally Venice will strike against me preemptively and Poland decides it cant be asked to fight such a distant war.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 17:57

Baudin: Dec 31, 2009

Knuc U Kinte posted:

Haha. Best start ever where I managed to hop through Serbia, Bosnia and Ragusa during the first peace with the OE ruined when Poland refused my CtA against ragusa when I vassalised Bosnia. I wish the AI wouldn't automatically CtA allies who won't accept. I guess my only hope is Austria coming to the party in time. I hate how the human player can;t overlook dishonor when survival is on the line. It's ridiculous.

I got around this by not allying Poland/Hungary/Austria until I vassalized Serbia, Bosnia and Wallacia. My first few attempts I madly ate the stab/ war exhaustion penalty from immediately attacking Athens and Albania. The last attempt I focused on vassalizing the bosnia/wallacia/serbia countries first, got alliances, and then annexed my former vassals once the truce ran out.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 18:53

Knuc U Kinte: Aug 17, 2004

Soviet_Russia posted:

Early on as Byzantium I will never check the "Call Allies" box in the DoW menu. It's just too risky for that exact reason. I will look at the box to see if any allies might come, and then call them in manually via 'Alliance Options' in the diplomacy menu. The only thing that has really screwed me over is occasionally Venice will strike against me preemptively and Poland decides it cant be asked to fight such a distant war.

I inherited the war when I vassalised bosnia and the CtA was sent out automatically. The same thing happened in an OE game where I foolishly protectorated a Crimea at war and my Western Euro allies all declined the automatic CtA and spain decided that they wanted their stuff back.

edit: I actually managed to eke out an alliance with Austria who had the king of Burgundy event fire early and hopefully they will prevent the Ottomans from attacking until I'm ready. I bumrushed Venice when their allies were in a war with me and took back all my islands in a single war so I actually outnumber the Ottomans with my vassals alone. Austria outnumbers them again with their own forces, but it would be nice to have the Commonwealth on my side.

Knuc U Kinte fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Feb 2, 2014

# ? Feb 2, 2014 21:16

Munin: Nov 14, 2004

Are there any good Q&As/guides about Protectorates and colonial nations? I hadn't played since the patch and was a bit thrown by all my colonies turning into colonial nations.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 21:19

OctaviusBeaver: Apr 30, 2009; Say what now?

Is it game over if the Ottomans warn you early as Byzantines? They keep warning me right after I sign a peace treaty but before my diplomat returns so I can warn them.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 21:48

Jackson Taus: Oct 19, 2011

So if I can't vassalize or make colonial nations in Africa or Asia, what's the easiest way of expanding? Is there a better way than "whelp, there goes all my ADM points and OE means I have poo poo for trading income for the next 5 years"? Or am I just expected to protectorate everything and not actually own any land?

# ? Feb 2, 2014 22:03

Freudian: Mar 23, 2011

Soviet_Russia posted:

Early on as Byzantium I will never check the "Call Allies" box in the DoW menu. It's just too risky for that exact reason. I will look at the box to see if any allies might come, and then call them in manually via 'Alliance Options' in the diplomacy menu. The only thing that has really screwed me over is occasionally Venice will strike against me preemptively and Poland decides it cant be asked to fight such a distant war.

The box is "Call Willing Allies". I checked it for the last century in my most recent game and didn't lose an ally in that time. Feel free to check it.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 22:14

Pellisworth: Jun 20, 2005

I'm not aware of any problems with the "Call Willing Allies" checkbox. I think the issue is where the player is pulled in as war leader in a defensive war, which automatically calls all the player's allies regardless of their willingness usually meaning a bunch of your alliances break and you get fat Dishonored Alliance relations penalties.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 22:29

Knuc U Kinte: Aug 17, 2004

Pellisworth posted:

I'm not aware of any problems with the "Call Willing Allies" checkbox. I think the issue is where the player is pulled in as war leader in a defensive war, which automatically calls all the player's allies regardless of their willingness usually meaning a bunch of your alliances break and you get fat Dishonored Alliance relations penalties.

Bingo.

OctaviusBeaver posted:

Is it game over if the Ottomans warn you early as Byzantines? They keep warning me right after I sign a peace treaty but before my diplomat returns so I can warn them.

I managed to warn them the day the cooldown expired a month after signing the peace. I'd say try again and just be really diligent about using your days.

# ? Feb 2, 2014 22:50

dead gay comedy forums: Oct 21, 2011

I have been fooling around with Milan and I thought Ambrosian Republic would be something like Dutch Republic, but meh, it is bad. Besides the Netherlands and the obvious benefits of the plutocratic ideas, any good reason why maintain a republic?

# ? Feb 3, 2014 01:04

DrSunshine: Mar 23, 2009; Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!

Transmetropolitan posted:

I have been fooling around with Milan and I thought Ambrosian Republic would be something like Dutch Republic, but meh, it is bad. Besides the Netherlands and the obvious benefits of the plutocratic ideas, any good reason why maintain a republic?

It's nice not to cross your fingers and hope your ruler isn't some kind of mediocre idiot, and it's also nice to not have to boost stability every succession. I've been playing as The Hansa and colonizing North America, and it's been a real blast! I've got a million billion merchants and rake in the money hand over fist!

# ? Feb 3, 2014 01:10

420 Gank Mid: Dec 26, 2008; WARNING: This poster is a huge bitch!

OctaviusBeaver posted:

Is it game over if the Ottomans warn you early as Byzantines? They keep warning me right after I sign a peace treaty but before my diplomat returns so I can warn them.

Not entirely. But you are limited to wars that your allies will join in on. For example; if you were going to attack Wallachia, and Poland/Lithuania/etc. are down to join you then park your fleet in the Sea of Marmara and invade, I've seen ottomans ignore the chance to go to war with me multiple times when all my allies join in or they are otherwise indisposed. Just be sure to time the attack so that at least half their forces are stuck in Turkey and would have to march through Poland and Lithuania to intervene.

This is also a pretty good way to get allies that wouldn't otherwise attack the Ottomans to help you out.

# ? Feb 3, 2014 01:10

Trujillo: Jul 10, 2007

Since I know some people appreciate the pretty borders that mp leads to:

# ? Feb 3, 2014 01:12

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 19, 2024 20:10

RabidWeasel: Aug 4, 2007; Cultures thrive on their myths and legends...and snuggles!

That mapmode really needs to show vassals, it looks silly with that big Syria-shaped hole in the middle of the OE. The Pretty Borders faction is happy, regardless.

# ? Feb 3, 2014 01:14

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Europa Universalis IV: Is that... is that backwards singing?

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