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Rodyle posted:Lelouch vi Britannia Commands You To Post YES, MY LORD. Anyway chalk me up as one of those who likes R2 unironically and unapologetically. Actually the only stuff in R2 that I really write off as insane is the Euphinator.
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Feb 1, 2014 23:25
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Sakurazuka posted:What the hell even was Charles master-plan, I remember something about using geass to destroy the human collective unconscious for *reasons* and then it devolved into metaphysical psychobabble. Charles' master plan was to drag everyone's full personalities into the collective unconscious and then people would just live inside each other's memories or something. This would kinda sorta resurrect the dead and it would mean nobody else could die but on the flip side nothing would ever progress and the world would be completely stagnant. Or at least I think that was his plan but the scheme was pretty much entirely psychobabble right from the start and never made a lick of sense. Anyway Lelouch used his geass to ask the collective unconscious if people are on board with this plan and the reply is a resounding "gently caress THAT poo poo" so everything explodes and apparently that fixed things.
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Feb 2, 2014 00:00
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Vermain posted:I mean, the Charles plot was thematically pretty appropriate, since it touched upon two of the key themes of Code Geass: the "wearing of masks" that disguises our true motivations (even unconsciously - Suzaku thinks he's doing noble, heroic things, but he really just has an incredible death wish; Lelouch thinks he's acting as a great revolutionary leader when he's really just out for revenge; etc.) and the conflict that results from it (the key conflict in the series really being Lelouch and Suzaku finding themselves completely unable to understand why the other would try to change things in their particular way). The problem is that there's maybe four or five characters who actually directly interact with it, and it's not seamlessly woven in. It keeps stumbling in like a drunken uncle to remind you that it's theree. That's an interesting way to look at it and it fits with the Emperor's extreme hatred of lies (despite lying all the time himself) but the problem really lies in the execution. It's a drunken uncle that hangs around for 2 whole seasons doing nothing, then suddenly tries to burn the house down and immediately gets arrested never to be seen again. Another interesting thought is that what Charles does to Lelouch is kinda the same as what Lelouch does to Nunally near the end of R2, though Lelouch's hand was forced a little more. chumbler posted:the first season's ground battles and slightly higher emphasis on tactics rather than just overwhelming power was refreshing. That's something I really liked in Code Geass. Lelouch doesn’t fight his rebellion with superior strength, he fights it with superior planning... and that means becoming the smartest, dirtiest and most brutal strategist. He is perfectly willing to deceive or betray his own allies without pity or remorse, he’s has no qualms about sacrificing all but his closest friends and he’s proactive in finding the best ways to abuse the poo poo out of his sinister magic power. It was refreshingly different to have battles fought with strategy than power and IMO even Lelouch's most radical turn-arounds usually felt earned rather than being asspulls (though he kinda reused the "Fighting a losing battle - Blow up battlefield - Win battle" strategy about 5 times). Basically for all it's silliness I thought Code Geass did a good job at making the battles and conflicts feel sensible, at least in R1. I mean one of the first things Lelouch does is assassinate the enemy leader, and the empire immediately responds by sending in people that are more competent and more dangerous. Not saying there aren't notable exceptions but they're in the minority.
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Feb 2, 2014 14:20
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Autonomous Monster posted:Pretty much this. I'm really not interested in watching more Geass without Lelouch in it. Actually, I just want more Lelouch full stop; I don't care if they have to poo poo all over established canon to do it, I need him back on my screen and chewing scenery like it's going out of fashion. Yeah Lelouch totally steals the show, but I’d be interested in more stories set in the Geass universe. What I find special about that world is that the super-powers are largely social in nature and they’re used to complement normal weapons rather than replace them. That's just a little different from normal. Autonomous Monster posted:EDIT: Recently, I've been trying to get a friend of mine to watch Geass. She loved Valvrave, but has been holding off on this because she's heard that it has a bad ending. Any thoughts on how I can convince her? I can't really say that it doesn't have a bad ending, because, well... You could try “The ending isn’t bad, it’s uhhh.. polarizing” because some people like it, including myself. Anyway I don’t really know how to compare Geass to Valvrave aside from “Like Valvrave, but good”. They’re both a weird blend of mechs, superpowers and highschools but Geass has some logic to it. As silly as Geass got a guy never took out a room of guards with a screw, predicted the precise movements of complete strangers with zero information and then took down a battleship with a piece of string. Autonomous Monster posted:My main problem with the ending is that I don't think the Zero Requiem would actually work as described. People do not work that way: hatred is not a finite resource, and historically speaking oppressed groups have had no problem hating on their fellow sufferers. Even if you do get them to band together, they tend to fall back into fighting each other as soon as the common threat disappears. It's a stupid plan, and honestly it smacks of cowardice: Lelouch could have leveraged his imperial power to a program of reconstruction, reconciliation and decolonisation- instead he choose suicide. Disappointing. You’re right that Lelouch achieves absolute imperial power but I’d argue that it isn’t sustainable. Lelouch’s authority is built on fear and brainwashing but playing ‘pretend tyrant’ isn’t a viable long term solution. Either he eliminates his political rivals and becomes an actual tyrant or he ignores them and his empire collapses because people don’t fear him any more. Basically Lelouch creates a peaceful world through despicable means (including brainwashing an entire empire's nobility) then tries to hand his empire over to trustworthy successors without anybody realizing what happened. He’s already eliminated the worst rulers and reformed the worst nations, but nobody is happy because literally the entire world hates him. By removing himself from the equation he makes the world less stable, but he makes it happier and he’s already set some things up to deal with the inevitable disputes and fallout. So I don’t see it as cowardice at all, more like sacrificing himself. Also if you interpret it as it being Lelouch on the wagon with C.C. then he didn’t even die in the process. If he takes C.C.'s code and becomes immortal (something he always promised to do) then a sword wound like that ain’t no thing. It's certainly ambiguous but this seems like the most obvious read of that scene. This also allows for the future adventures of a mysterious and extravagant immortal called L.L. (Lamperouge, not vi Britannia) The emotional complaint makes a lot of sense though. Watching your favourite characters get completely screwed over and go through hell isn't very pleasant, even if it works out in the end. Elite fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Feb 2, 2014 |
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Feb 2, 2014 16:40
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Brasseye posted:I just started watching this ridiculous show last week and I'm about 8 episodes in. My only complaint so far is the time where Lelouch loses his mask to a cat and spends the whole episode trying to get it back. The cat helmet episode is some of the dumbest most pointless filler I have ever seen. Does anything happen in that episode? At all? THE AWESOME GHOST posted:R2 got really dumb for a couple of reasons: I thought of Lelouch’s motivation as “gently caress YOU DAD, you let mom die and abandoned me and Nunally” but when he learns his mom is sort-of still around and that they weren’t abandoned he’s still stuck in the “gently caress YOU DAD” mindset and his dad’s plan is basically insane anyway so screw him. Still I kind of write-off anything related to the Euphinator as complete bullshit and almost everything that happens with Marianne is nonsense. I mean most of the geass powers are tied into what a person desires. Lelouch wanted to order people about. C.C. wanted to be loved. Mao wanted to know what people were thinking. The motives behind a lot of the other powers aren’t really explained at all but they don’t seem that silly. Charles wanting to control memories, Rolo wanting to stop time, The Knight of One wanting to know the immediate future. But it completely falls down with Marianne who apparently looked at a little girl and thought “I want your body” or "I want to be inside your head" so became some kind of brain-hijacker. I actually liked that R2 was a retread of R1 but on a different scale, it seemed completely appropriate for the revolution leader to return to fighting the same war but with different stakes. I don’t even mind Lelouch taking over the world in an hour, because he does so in a monstrous way and there’s a clear reason why he didn’t just do that in the first place. Mordaedil posted:Heck, the end even seems to suggest that Lelouch isn't really dead as a part of the curse of the geass. They could make a third season around that fact alone, albeit I don't mind some quiet time in the time period it ended at, maybe resuming after a long time when things have gone to hell again. That’s my read on the ending as well and it does allow for future stories but I think there’s a couple of complications. 1) If it’s set in the near future then it could invalidate R2’s ending (and IMO R2’s ending kinda redeemed R2 EP19 onwards), but if it’s set in the far future that means abandoning the entire cast and setting, plus either reimagining Lelouch or contriving an excuse for him to stay the same. 2) It’s not entirely clear if Geass-holders retain their powers after taking an immortal’s code... if they do then you have an extremely overpowered hero – Immortal, hyper-smart and with mind-control superpowers that allow him to take over the world in an hour when he really wants to. If he loses his Geass powers then I’d still say the Immortal+Genius combo is less interesting than the MindControl+Genius combo. There’s definitely workarounds though. I mean I’d definitely read a story with him as a wandering chessmaster who gets tangled up in a space version of the Liar Game or something. “Well I already conquered the world once, so I guess I’ll take up card-battling”, he certainly has the flair for it. Mordaedil posted:I only know of this show and Death Note that have a story from the villains perspective. Gankutsuou changes the original protagonist into an evil space vampire, then changes it's mind and picks somebody else to be the protagonist instead. Not quite the same thing, but still close enough to mention.
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Feb 6, 2014 19:50
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Cronodoculous posted:What a weird time for this thread to pop up, I just recently started watching this. I tried about a year ago but lost interest after the... cat adventure. Started back on the episode immediately after that and I think I'm hooked this time. It popped up to cater for discussion about Akito ep2, though ironically nobody has talked about it so far. Dragonatrix posted:I dunno, I think the episode with Arthur stealing the mask is sorta important in that it finally shows us that Suzaku and Lelouch can easily work together if they need to. So it kinda starts setting things up for when Mao turns up ruining everything and when they do it out of necessity when that random guy returns with the Chinese near the end of S1. Point taken, but they could have shown them working together on anything and out of all the possible collaborations cat-herding has to rank waaay down the list.
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Feb 8, 2014 23:52
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ImpAtom posted:Lelouch is totally dead and the ending makes no sense if he isn't. The entire point of what he did (for himself) was dying to redeem himself for his sins. It doesn't work if you fake your death. Even SRW writes around his death by having him saved by Celestial Being super-science, not just having him survive. What doesn't make sense about Lelouch taking C.C.'s immortality code to survive an otherwise fatal attack? The rules of the universe allow it. Lelouch would almost certainly think of it. It seems like a superior option for everybody in the know (better for Lelouch, C.C. and Suzaku) It only doesn’t make sense if Lelouch has a hard-on for self-annihilation, which is not something I’m convinced about. Yes he's willing to die for his cause, but killing himself unnecessarily is something completely different. Lelouch has always shown himself to be a pragmatist and suicide is not the only form of sacrifice nor is it the only path to redemption. Also Lelouch tricking people and dicking them over is literally his M.O. for the entire series, so I don't see why it's thematically inappropriate for the ending. If Lelouch isn't around then who is with C.C. at the end and why is their face hidden and why has C.C. changed her outlook on life. Again I'm not saying this is the only interpretation, but at the very least I think it's ambiguous rather than being a definite death.
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Feb 9, 2014 22:47
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ImpAtom posted:Because it is in fact incredibly thematically inappropriate. The entire point of Zero's Requiem is that it is Lelouch seeking redemption for all the screwing over he's done throughout the entire series. Him having a built-in escape clause so he gets to have his cake and eat it too defeats the point of any actual attempt at redemption he was making and devalues the entire ending. A big part of the ending is that Suzaku and Lelouch finally unite and then become one another. Part of the irony is that Suzaku is forced to live while Lelouch dies, just like how Suzaku is forced to become the leader of the bloody rebellion and Lelouch becomes leader of the entrenched status quo. Lelouch could totally have figured out a way to survive but at that point Lelouch isn't trying to find a way to survive. The dude is wholeheartedly honestly willing to die. To clarify, you’re not saying that it’s logically impossible but that it’s thematically inappropriate? Also you accept that the solution works and that it’s something Lelouch would have thought of, but you’re arguing that he would’ve decided against it? Well that’s where I disagree. Lelouch has a clear route to survival and no reason not to take it as the only people who’d know are the people who would want him to survive. It’s not about whether he’s willing to die or not, it’s whether things are better with him dying or not. And it seems odd to speak so earnestly about what’s thematically appropriate whilst also embracing irony so heavily. How can it be inappropriate for Lelouch to survive his downfall, but be perfectly appropriate for Lelouch and Suzaku to end up representing ideologies that they don't believe in? ImpAtom posted:It isn't like there weren't a million chances to drop an actual meaningful hint or show Lelouch's eyes under the cart driver or whatever specific thing you want to say. If they did that then how would it be in any way ambiguous? That’s a plain “actually it turns out he survived!” ending. Yes Lelouch gets eviscerated on stage but we’re talking about a universe where immortality is a very blatant phenomenon, and Lelouch perfectly fulfils the extremely specific criteria to have immortality transferred to him. This isn't pulled from nowhere. There is a long inner-monologue from Kallen about the state of world where she clearly considers him dead, but C.C.s last lines "I said that the Geass is the power of the king which would condemn you to a life of solitude. I think that's not quite correct. Right, Lelouch?" are said out-loud to a mysterious masked figure whilst looking pretty happy. Talking about Geass like that makes no sense to anybody but Lelouch and if Lelouch died than why is she saying all that out loud to a random stranger? And why is she happy if her friend died and her wish got denied? Annoyingly different translations might come into play here, aside from the one above there's also: “The power of kings, known as Geass, brings one solitude. Not quite accurate, is it? Right, Lelouch?” “Geass, the power of the king, isolates people. Maybe that’s not quite correct. Right, Lelouch?” Well, regardless of whether you save the world or not or whether you use teamwork I'd classify "lying to the entire world aside from 2 friends and then dying" as a life of solitude. From there, "Surviving this poo poo and running off with your girlfriend" is about the only thing he could do that wouldn't qualify as a life of isolation and distance. ImpAtom posted:And seriously, his last words are "You will no longer live as Suzaku, you must sacrifice your own happiness for the world's." Following that up with "But I, on the other hand, am totally surviving this poo poo and going off to hang out with my girlfriend" makes no sense for Lelouch at that point unless you're arguing every bit of guilt and shame he had was faked. Suzaku always had a guilt complex, living his life for the sake of the world is totally his kind of thing.  And Lelouch is clearly being melodramatic there, being defender of the world has to have some perks ... hell he even get access to Zero's super-sweet wardrobe! Lelouch on the other hand 'survives this poo poo and runs off with his girlfriend' but sacrifices all his friendships, status and possessions to do so (in this way he makes the biggest sacrifices when he starts playing the bad guy, rather than when he throws everything away). Really the world is not improved through his death, just by people believing that he died and the only people who would know the difference are those that want him to survive. I also think there's a big distinction between him feeling guilty/shameful and him feeling that he deserve no happiness or feeling he has no right to exist. It's possible to feel bad about something without killing yourself and I think he sacrifices a lot through the Zero Requiem plan even whether he survives or not.
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Feb 10, 2014 01:21
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Mercury Crusader posted:The show should have focused more on Kallen being a badass and wrecking poo poo and less on bunny suits and overcomplicated theatrics. Code Geass should've focused on Lelouch's grand-standing and extravagant costumes. "Only those who are prepared to dress ridiculously should design clothes!" Basically Kill la Kill, before Kill la Kill was Kill la Kill.
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Feb 10, 2014 19:15
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