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Mikujin
May 25, 2010

(also a lightning rod)

Stinky Pit posted:

I keep hearing this a lot.

You guys do know his ability doesn't let you play extra lands right? You still only get to play 1 per turn unless other effects are involved. I saw a few people at my pre-release misunderstand that ability.

It's more that it allows you to dig through dead draws fast, and you can some life while doing it. The 2/4 body is also pretty hefty and can be hard to beat through, and it only gets better if you suit it up with stuff.

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CountFosco
Jan 9, 2012

Welcome back to the Liturgigoon thread, friend.

Stinky Pit posted:

I keep hearing this a lot.

You guys do know his ability doesn't let you play extra lands right? You still only get to play 1 per turn unless other effects are involved. I saw a few people at my pre-release misunderstand that ability.

Um, yes? Being able to play cards from the top of your library is such an incredibly powerful ability that even when it's nerfed to just lands, and just one per turn, it's still potentially a tremendous card-advantage engine. Plus, it's stapled onto a three mana 2/4 body which is totally respectable in limited.

Ciprian Maricon
Feb 27, 2006



No its a decent card and the ability has been useful pretty much every time its been printed, I've just seen a lot of people describe the card in glowing terms and its not easy to tell if its an understandable error regarding the ability or just internet hyperbole so I figured I'd ask.

bhsman
Feb 10, 2008

by exmarx
My favorite old cards are Treetop Village purely as a card due to my old green Urza's Saga Type 2 deck and, for flavor...Flicker. :shobon:

Nowadays, my favorite card play-wise has been Angel of Glory's Rise due to my Humanimator Combo deck from INN/RTR Standard and Archetype of Finality because of the clever wording - which matches up with Flicker's, oddly enough.

GottaPayDaTrollToll
Dec 3, 2009

by Lowtax

XyrlocShammypants posted:

I stand by Birthing Pod as the best designed and most awesome card in magic history.

Pod's taken over as my favorite card as well. I really enjoyed playing Naya Pod when that deck was in Standard - you could beat down or grind value even without the Pod, but once you had Pod there were so many lines you could take, especially before Thragtusk hit the scene and there wasn't an obvious best 5-drop. I remember one game where my opponent had both Gideon Jura and Consecrated Sphinx out, and I went: Pod for Zealous Conscripts, steal Gideon, attack with Gideon, play Restoration Angel blinking Gideon, use Gideon to kill Consecrated Sphinx.

PRADA SLUT
Mar 14, 2006

Inexperienced,
heartless,
but even so
I need some help on buying a preconstructed deck.

I'm looking for something WG, probably WG stompie or enchantment-based. It could be monocolored, but a blend would be nice. It's for a newer player, so I want something fairly easy to play, not too complex, and has some sort of focus. If there's no WG that works, maybe WU or UG.

If for some reason the colors aren't playing ball, if there is any preconstructed deck out there that's extremely fun for newer players, I'll look at that as well.

I'm not looking for a deck that's necessarily competitive, though I was a magic player for 10 years so I can make some modifications if they want to take it to a tournament or something, it would be nice if the deck could be a viable "base" for that.

Ciprian Maricon
Feb 27, 2006



The Theros Event deck is a pretty solid WU aggro strategy that you might find suits your needs. A new player will find the aggressive creatures appealing and simple enough. As they learn, the deck still offers more room for growth combining instants with the Heroic mechanic will teach a new player about synergy and combat math, combat tricks, etc. all useful skills and then when they start messing with the included side-board they won't only learn about side-boarding but will eventually start questioning the relative merits of cards in or outside of the main 60 and start thinking about card selection and deck design. They are hardly tuned to win everything but they are capable and the deck builds are made in such a way that playing with them constantly creates teachable moments.

Thats not to say that the Theros event deck is the only option. These days most of the event decks are really well designed products to help players learn the game, frankly I don't know why they even print terrible pre-cons when the event decks exist.

Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Feb 8, 2014

kirtar
Sep 11, 2011

Strum in a harmonizing quartet
I want to cause a revolution

What can I do? My savage
nature is beyond wild

Stinky Pit posted:

The Theros Event deck is a pretty solid WU aggro strategy that you might find suits your needs. A new player will find the aggressive creatures appealing and simple enough. As they learn, the deck still offers more room for growth combining instants with the Heroic mechanic will teach a new player about synergy and combat math, combat tricks, etc. all useful skills and then when they start messing with the included side-board they won't only learn about side-boarding but will eventually start questioning the relative merits of cards in or outside of the main 60 and start thinking about card selection and deck design. They are hardly tuned to win everything but they are capable and the deck builds are made in such a way that playing with them constantly creates teachable moments.

Thats not to say that the Theros event deck is the only option. These days most of the event decks are really well designed products to help players learn the game, frankly I don't know why they even print terrible pre-cons when the event decks exist.

In terms of event decks the Theros and m14 event decks are the only ones that are standard legal at this point in time.

Chorocojo
Sep 25, 2005

Legendary Enchantment Creature -- Bird God
The best thing about the precons is you can build them for cheaper than they cost, usually. Especially on Magic Online.

I have all of them built because it's fun using precons against precons. Some of them are genuinely fun to use.

Count Bleck
Apr 5, 2010

DISPEL MAGIC!

Sometimes I like to buy a pack or two of the new set when I go on break. Usually I win MTG lottery

This time was incredible.



Bird Token, just what I needed for my edh deck! :v:

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!

Count Bleck posted:

Wow, are you me?

Because those are the Gods I opened as well.

And then a Phenax in the following FNM draft. And a Master of Waves.

Special Mention of Things In My Box™

Pain Seer
One of Each Scryland
Flame-Wreathed Phoenix
Herald of Torment x2
Spirit of the Labyrinth x2
Courser of Kruphix
:swoon:Brimaz:swoon:

I got five mythics in my box.
Brimaz, Kiora, Karametra, and 2 x Chromanticore :v:

It was a surprisingly good box, actually.
2 x Courser of Kruphix
1 x Pain Seer
1 x Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 x Herald of Torment
and 1 x each scry land.

My only disappointment was that the foil rare was the XXX mana rock.

Bikini Quilt
Jul 28, 2013
Does anyone have that link to the article explaining why Vexing Devil is a bad card? I understand why most people dislike punisher cards in general (you always get the worst option and the good option makes people overestimate the card's effectiveness) but in the case of Devil it seems kind of like a moot point since any deck that would run him would probably be happy to have either option. I mean it's either a better lightning bolt or a 4/3 body for 1 mana, and both of those seem really, really good in any sort of aggressive red deck.

AgentAO
May 31, 2011

Full Fathoms Five posted:

Does anyone have that link to the article explaining why Vexing Devil is a bad card? I understand why most people dislike punisher cards in general (you always get the worst option and the good option makes people overestimate the card's effectiveness) but in the case of Devil it seems kind of like a moot point since any deck that would run him would probably be happy to have either option. I mean it's either a better lightning bolt or a 4/3 body for 1 mana, and both of those seem really, really good in any sort of aggressive red deck.

Its the variance between the two modes that makes it bad. In the early game it will almost always be 4 damage, which seems nice but you basically just handed them a free removal spell for doing so. In the late game, it'll always be a 4/3, which your opponent can then remove. It has no ability to stick around early and apply pressure, and no ability to come down late and finish off an opponent.

Contrast it with Goblin Guide, who does 2 damage on turn 1, and usually gets to swing on turn 2 for a total of 4 damage (and thus comparable to a Vexing Devil that got to swing once) and in the late game always comes down swinging, which can help push through a stalled board state by adding an extra attacker.

jassi007
Aug 9, 2006

mmmmm.. burger...

Full Fathoms Five posted:

Does anyone have that link to the article explaining why Vexing Devil is a bad card? I understand why most people dislike punisher cards in general (you always get the worst option and the good option makes people overestimate the card's effectiveness) but in the case of Devil it seems kind of like a moot point since any deck that would run him would probably be happy to have either option. I mean it's either a better lightning bolt or a 4/3 body for 1 mana, and both of those seem really, really good in any sort of aggressive red deck.

Anytime your opponent chooses, they always make the choice that is best for them. Ok have a 4/3, bolt it. You have done zero damage. Ok take 4 damage, I kill you next turn, you failed to kill me so your 4 damage = 0 damage. The only time it isn't bad, is when your opponent has no answers/can't win anyway/can't deal with it, and even then in that case you are most likely going to win with any card. When your opponent has no plays, anything you play is going to be good. Think about this. If you cast vexing devil, and next turn I remove it, you have nothing. If you had instead cast any 3 damage one mana burn spell, you would have done 3 damage.

Starving Autist
Oct 20, 2007

by Ralp

jassi007 posted:

Anytime your opponent chooses, they always make the choice that is best for them.

Not necessarily. One time a guy let my turn 1 Vexing Devil live, apparently because he had a Maze of Ith in hand that he played next turn. I Wastelanded it next turn and beat him to death with a Vexing Devil.

e: Not saying it's an amazing card, but I think that early game it's basically a better lava spike, so it's fine in a burn deck.

Starving Autist fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Feb 8, 2014

Korak
Nov 29, 2007
TV FACIST
BBD first person that gets to ultimate Kiora on camera. :D Kiora may be the real deal. Kiora +1 followed with Jace +1 is deceptively powerful, even if your opponent tries to go after your planeswalkers you're putting up big pseudo-fogs that allow you to keep yourself in the game.

Bikini Quilt
Jul 28, 2013
Yeah I mean it doesn't have a place in every deck that runs red, but in Burn or Mono-Red aggro it seems very solid. I mean saying it's a waste of 1 mana if they bolt it next turn seems like saying you shouldn't run lightning bolt because if they counter it you just wasted a turn. I agree that Goblin Guide is better, but running both seems pretty effective in decks that are dead in the water if you reach "late game" to begin with.

Ciprian Maricon
Feb 27, 2006



Full Fathoms Five posted:

I mean saying it's a waste of 1 mana if they bolt it next turn seems like saying you shouldn't run lightning bolt because if they counter it you just wasted a turn.

That's not remotely the same thing. The problem with Vexing Devil lies in the fact that your opponent makes the choice. If your opponent counters your lightning bolt, well hey, that happens, but it requires them to have the counter, and have the mana up. Vexing Devil allows your opponent to select which resources they want to use to deal with the problem, which is almost always more to their benefit than yours. Playing a spell like Lava Spike is always better because it's an action that demands your opponent have specific resources available to stop it.

Ableist Kinkshamer posted:

e: Not saying it's an amazing card, but I think that early game it's basically a better lava spike, so it's fine in a burn deck.

No it isn't because Lava Spike is never countered by Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt and Vexing Devil frequently is.

Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Feb 8, 2014

Froghammer
Sep 8, 2012

Khajit has wares
if you have coin
Vexing Devil is great when you have three of them in your opening hand. Beyond that it's kind of meh.

^^^EDIT: come on dude, "dies to Doom Blade" is the shittiest argument ever.

Korak
Nov 29, 2007
TV FACIST

jassi007 posted:

Anytime your opponent chooses, they always make the choice that is best for them. Ok have a 4/3, bolt it. You have done zero damage. Ok take 4 damage, I kill you next turn, you failed to kill me so your 4 damage = 0 damage. The only time it isn't bad, is when your opponent has no answers/can't win anyway/can't deal with it, and even then in that case you are most likely going to win with any card. When your opponent has no plays, anything you play is going to be good. Think about this. If you cast vexing devil, and next turn I remove it, you have nothing. If you had instead cast any 3 damage one mana burn spell, you would have done 3 damage.
Vexing Devil is great in Modern Burn. If it was in the Standard format right now it would be a really good card for Standard RWb Burn. It really was 1 format too soon.

jassi007
Aug 9, 2006

mmmmm.. burger...

Ableist Kinkshamer posted:

Not necessarily. One time a guy let my turn 1 Vexing Devil live, apparently because he had a Maze of Ith in hand that he played next turn. I Wastelanded it next turn and beat him to death with a Vexing Devil.

e: Not saying it's an amazing card, but I think that early game it's basically a better lava spike, so it's fine in a burn deck.

It is good early game. But, to ensure you have one early, t1 ideally right? You want to have 4x. However by having 4x, you increase the chances of drawing it when its not good, late game after the opponent is doing whatever they're doing. By that measure, having the correct amount of vexing devils in your deck to get it in play at the ideal time is bad for you.

If you t1 devil me, I likely opt to take 4. I have 16 more life to fall back on, and you have no card. It was better than a laval spike, granted, but was it better than a goblin guide? If a guide would have gotten in for 6 total, nope. At worst a guide gets in for 4 and its even but you make me waste a spell to deal with it, right? I don't have to do anything to deal with a devil other than take 4 damage. I'm +1 card advantage because I just removed a card without using a card. You look at it as a better bolt, I see it as a creature that I get to remove without using a card. Or the other case, I have a bolt in hand, you go t1 devil, pass. I got land bolt devil pass. Your the one playing the burn/aggro deck, and you just wasted t1. You want to be on 6+ damage by t2, so now you are behind.

Your anecdote you outlined, your opponent did make the best play he could. You just had an answer so it didn't turn out well for him.

jassi007
Aug 9, 2006

mmmmm.. burger...

Full Fathoms Five posted:

Yeah I mean it doesn't have a place in every deck that runs red, but in Burn or Mono-Red aggro it seems very solid. I mean saying it's a waste of 1 mana if they bolt it next turn seems like saying you shouldn't run lightning bolt because if they counter it you just wasted a turn. I agree that Goblin Guide is better, but running both seems pretty effective in decks that are dead in the water if you reach "late game" to begin with.

Counterspells can't be used a turn later. If you are on the play as burn and cast lava spike the opponent (in modern) has no way to answer. However removal can come the next turn. If I was playing burn, I'd much rather cast lava spike t1 than vexing devil, I know I'm going to get them for 3 vs. praying he doesn't have removal and now I'm behind a turn.

Froghammer posted:

Vexing Devil is great when you have three of them in your opening hand. Beyond that it's kind of meh.

^^^EDIT: come on dude, "dies to Doom Blade" is the shittiest argument ever.

Usually it is a bad argument, but when discussing a card that is "like a burn spell" but is a creature, it is not. It is a relevant point. An actual burn spell doesn't die to removal, this one does. Goblin guide also dies to removal but its better because its a 1 drop haste, so it is usually at its worst a shock. Guide gets in for something almost all the time, devil doesn't.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received

Froghammer posted:

Vexing Devil is great when you have three of them in your opening hand. Beyond that it's kind of meh.

^^^EDIT: come on dude, "dies to Doom Blade" is the shittiest argument ever.

"Dies to Doom Blade except when it dies to the opponent being able to tank the 4 damage either through exploiting your loss of board presence or being able to win fast enough the damage doesn't matter, the decision of which is entirely in said opponent's hand" is a good argument, though.

Ciprian Maricon
Feb 27, 2006



Froghammer posted:

^^^EDIT: come on dude, "dies to Doom Blade" is the shittiest argument ever.

You're missing the point, Jesus God. The problem is, when your opponent has a removal spell, they allow it to resolve and when they don't they can choose to loose 4 life its a card your opponent can deal with in more ways than 1 and worse, they get to choose what suits them best. That makes it worse than a regular creature because while regular creatures also die to Doom Blade, they don't give your opponent the option of dealing them by losing some life.

Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Feb 8, 2014

Korak
Nov 29, 2007
TV FACIST
Apparently WotC is running some kind of super tourny today, starting 2pm est? https://twitter.com/search?q=mtgsuper

If I was a card dev I would have changed punisher mechanics to the player casting the spell chooses which mode. Instantly makes a lot of these "bad cards" into good or great cards.

Eddie Whitson
Nov 2, 2010

Korak posted:

If I was a card dev I would have changed punisher mechanics to the player casting the spell chooses which mode. Instantly makes a lot of these "bad cards" into good or great cards.

And I wish restaurants gave away their food for free.

jassi007
Aug 9, 2006

mmmmm.. burger...

Korak posted:


If I was a card dev I would have changed punisher mechanics to the player casting the spell chooses which mode. Instantly makes a lot of these "bad cards" into good or great cards.

They have these kinds of cards, they're called modal spells. All the charms are these kind of spells. :) Boros charm, now that is a good 4 damage card to play in a burn deck.

Orange Fluffy Sheep
Jul 26, 2008

Bad EXP received
Imagine if, when you cast Boros Charm, the opponent got to pick which mode was cast. It'd be awful because you'd never get the 4 damage or Double Strike when you wanted it, and I can see your dudes becoming Indestructible really often, which is noted for not helping with Unsummon nor increasing damage output.

While this is a bit of an extreme example, I think it does illustrate why punisher mechanics are so rarely good. The two modes have to be close, like with Xenabro or that mythic phoenix, or otherwise the opponent can take whichever inconveniences them the least. At prerelease I let a guy's Nessian Wilds Ravager get to be 12/12 because I had Voyage's End in hand and I liked my board position.

Ciprian Maricon
Feb 27, 2006



Korak posted:

Vexing Devil is great in Modern Burn. If it was in the Standard format right now it would be a really good card for Standard RWb Burn. It really was 1 format too soon.

Modern Burn is not exactly a deck putting up great tournament results and there are as many Modern Burn decks running Keldon Marauders and Hellspark Elemental as there are running Vexing Devil.

There are people playing it in Modern Burn is about the most positive statement we could make about the cards actual strength and utility.

Serperoth
Feb 21, 2013



Korak posted:

If I was a card dev I would have changed punisher mechanics to the player casting the spell chooses which mode. Instantly makes a lot of these "bad cards" into good or great cards.

So Vexing Devil would be either a better Lava Spike or a 4/3 1-drop, on its own. Browbeat would be literally a better Inspiration, or a better Volcanic Hammer. But your opponent getting to choose is a big part of WHY they're undercosted. If Vexing Devil (or Tribute cards, or Browbeat etc.) gave YOU the choice, they would be amazingly strong cards.

Vexing Devil for example. Suppose you have 4 in your deck. Right now, there's choice involved (especially since the archetype in which it fits usually doesn't have an abundance of mana). Do you cast it? If yes, what does the opponent choose?
If you choice, you'd cast it all the time, no question. T1 Vexing Devil, it stays in, it most likely gets two attacks in, you can just Volcanic Hammer them with the rest, you win.

That's why modal spells are so strong. Because you get to do what YOU want to do, when you want it.

Bikini Quilt
Jul 28, 2013
So when is the best time to buy stuff for a Modern deck? I think someone at FNM mentioned that there's like a Modern PTQ or something on the horizon, meaning everything is going up in price right now. Is that correct? If so, how long should I wait for the sudden spike in demand to wear off and prices to go back down?

Count Bleck
Apr 5, 2010

DISPEL MAGIC!

I honestly think Tribute is a good way to make punisher cards, Xenabro is almost never bad to slam on turn 3 just because its always a 4/4 when you drop it, even if for one turn.

The Phoenix seems like one of those cards that will be overlooked until rotation in the fall when monored loses some of its really good doublemana and triplemana cards.

Ciprian Maricon
Feb 27, 2006



Full Fathoms Five posted:

So when is the best time to buy stuff for a Modern deck? I think someone at FNM mentioned that there's like a Modern PTQ or something on the horizon, meaning everything is going up in price right now. Is that correct? If so, how long should I wait for the sudden spike in demand to wear off and prices to go back down?

That depends on how much you plan you play Modern. Prices are sticky, and the effect once PTQ season is over is going to be that prices will rise slower instead of really falling.

Obviously you know, some archetypes becoming less competitive or whatever will affect individual singles but overall, modern staples are going up, are going to go up faster once PTQ Season is in swing, and then keep going up slower after with maybe a slight dip once the season is over but not much of one.

Count Bleck
Apr 5, 2010

DISPEL MAGIC!

Stinky Pit posted:

That depends on how much you plan you play Modern. Prices are sticky, and the effect once PTQ season is over is going to be that prices will rise slower instead of really falling.

Obviously you know, some archetypes becoming less competitive or whatever will affect individual singles but overall, modern staples are going up, are going to go up faster once PTQ Season is in swing, and then keep going up slower after with maybe a slight dip once the season is over but not much of one.

All I heard was BUY YOUR FISH NOW. :ohdear:

jassi007
Aug 9, 2006

mmmmm.. burger...

Full Fathoms Five posted:

So when is the best time to buy stuff for a Modern deck? I think someone at FNM mentioned that there's like a Modern PTQ or something on the horizon, meaning everything is going up in price right now. Is that correct? If so, how long should I wait for the sudden spike in demand to wear off and prices to go back down?

Well, if you are like me, you look at a deck, decide you like it, put it off until it doubles in price. I'm looking at you merfolk and Gr Tron. Here is a thing, they're going to reprint modern stuff. We don't know what or when. Until they reprint things, expect all prices to rise. So now is the best time to buy something if you want to play it, or wait and pray for reprints if price is a real issue. With the wait and pray strategy you may never actually get to play modern.

hey mom its 420
May 12, 2007

I wanna complete modern/legacy fish, I just bought a ton of fishes (4x LoA, 4x MotPT, 4x Cursecatcher, 4x Silvergill, 4x Merrow, 3x Phantasmal). I need to get a set of mutavaults, is it best to get them now or to wait?

jassi007
Aug 9, 2006

mmmmm.. burger...

Bonus posted:

I wanna complete modern/legacy fish, I just bought a ton of fishes (4x LoA, 4x MotPT, 4x Cursecatcher, 4x Silvergill, 4x Merrow, 3x Phantasmal). I need to get a set of mutavaults, is it best to get them now or to wait?

Can you wait until like October-December? There is a reasonable chance they'll drop.

mango sentinel
Jan 5, 2001

by sebmojo
I think punish cards are just a stupid idea, but if you're going to make them you have to make it so they are worth playing even if it's a suboptimal outcome every time, which generally means you really have to push the card. Vexing Devil is close and would probably work if it had haste.

hey mom its 420
May 12, 2007

jassi007 posted:

Can you wait until like October-December? There is a reasonable chance they'll drop.

Yeah, true, they'll probably drop after they rotate. drat standard players.

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Sleep of Bronze
Feb 9, 2013

If I could only somewhere find Aias, master of the warcry, then we could go forth and again ignite our battle-lust, even in the face of the gods themselves.

Korak posted:

BBD first person that gets to ultimate Kiora on camera. :D Kiora may be the real deal. Kiora +1 followed with Jace +1 is deceptively powerful, even if your opponent tries to go after your planeswalkers you're putting up big pseudo-fogs that allow you to keep yourself in the game.

Sorry, where's this?

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