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Thermos H Christ
Sep 6, 2007

running out of the mirror the smells roses roses the voice that breathed o'er eden

I know there is a rules thread but I feel like this is bigger than that and people who don't read that thread will be interested. If I'm wrong I'm sorry and a mod can go ahead and shut it down.

The NCAA put out a release today about some rule changes recommended by the committee. They include:

quote:

The committee also recommended a rules change that will allow defensive units to substitute within the first 10 seconds of the 40-second play clock, with the exception of the final two minutes of each half, starting with the 2014 season.

“This rules change is being made to enhance student-athlete safety by guaranteeing a small window for both teams to substitute,” said Calhoun. “As the average number of plays per game has increased, this issue has been discussed with greater frequency by the committee in recent years and we felt like it was time to act in the interests of protecting our student-athletes.”

Under this rule proposal, the offense will not be allowed to snap the ball until the play clock reaches 29 seconds or less. If the offense snaps the ball before the play clock reaches 29 seconds, a 5-yard, delay-of-game penalty will be assessed. Under current rules, defensive players are not guaranteed an opportunity to substitute unless the offense substitutes first. This part of the rule will remain in place in scenarios where the play clock starts at 25 seconds.

The tone of the press release makes it sound like this is all but a done deal, but I admit I don't know what steps remain between here and there. This seems like a horrible move that threatens to take away perhaps the most exciting current trend in the game. I am fairly pissed about it. I hope the NCAA feels a ton of backlash on this before they can put it in to effect.

Also, as Bruce Feldman noted:

quote:

@BFeldmanCBS
Text from a coach on new rules proposal: "the 2 coaches on the rules committee were 84th & 106th in plays run last year. C'mon man."

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Rap
Sep 1, 2007

BLITZ

That's a terrible change. In so many aspects. I mean just "the final two minutes of the half" poo poo, most teams would feel the pressure of the clock before that and would want to run a "legit" end-of-half hurry-up starting at maybe 3:00 or 3:30. Not piss away 10 seconds after every play for that minute.

Love how they couldn't even invent a new penalty and had to call this "delay of game," that's some Ministry of Truth poo poo

swizz
Oct 10, 2004

I can recall being broke with some friends in Tennessee and deciding to have a party and being able to afford only two-fifths of a $1.75 bourbon called Two Natural, whose label showed dice coming up 5 and 2. Its taste was memorable. The psychological effect was also notable.

Terrible idea, that explanation for the change is absolute horseshit and there's literally nothing to recommend this


edit: big surprise that multiple members of the committee run down-tempo

swizz fucked around with this message at Feb 13, 2014 around 00:04

Thermos H Christ
Sep 6, 2007

running out of the mirror the smells roses roses the voice that breathed o'er eden

I don't think it's that common for teams to snap with >30 seconds on the clock. But the ability to line up and threaten to snap, therefore preventing substitution and wearing on the defense/minimizing the time for play calling, seems to be a crucial part of many teams' strategy these days. Also, one of the coolest things I saw in the 2013 season was when Baylor ran a play that ended just before the goal line, then without hesitation raced back together and ran a dive play before the defense knew what hit em. It was obviously a practiced move for that situation and it was cool as poo poo

gently caress this rule change, I seriously do not understand the NCAA imagines there's not going to be major resistance from schools and fans on this one.

Zypher
Sep 3, 2009

Rutgers

Your 2006
Mythical National
Champions!


SI had an article last summer about this from a player safety standpoint

quote:

Nick Saban and Bret Bielema are stubborn, curmudgeonly traditionalists. Or they're just wusses. Those were the typical reactions to comments made by Alabama's coach last fall and Arkansas' coach last month, in which they suggested that college football's increasingly ubiquitous hurry-up offenses are becoming a health hazard for players.

Both coaches said they're concerned for athlete safety because of the inability to make defensive substitutions for extended periods of time when facing breakneck offenses, such as the ones run by Oregon and Texas A&M. "There's times where you can't get a defensive substitution in for eight, 10, 12-play drives," said Bielema, who proposed a 15-second "substitution period" following first downs. "That has an effect on safety of that student-athlete, especially the bigger defensive linemen, that is really real."

Fans and proponents of those styles of offense weren't buying it. They chalked up Saban and Bielema's remarks to typical whining. Saban probably didn't help his cause by asking rhetorically: "Is this what we want football to be?"

But what if Saban and Bielema are right? Given the increased awareness surrounding the long-term health of football players, shouldn't people at least look into the possible injury risks of no-huddle offenses?

The experts have an answer: Yes, very much so.

"We don't have quantifiable data to support Bret's claim, but conceptually, it makes sense and lines up with what we observed," said Thomas Talavage, a Purdue University biomedical engineering professor who, along with colleague Eric Nauman, spent two years studying brain trauma among players on an Indiana high school team.

"I think it is a very legitimate concern to the extent that there truly is an added fatigue factor," said Dr. Randall Benson, a professor of neurology at Wayne State University who testified before Congress about traumatic brain injuries in football. "When guys are fatigued they tend to use poorer technique, which can lead to having one's head in the wrong place, putting them at risk for concussions and subconcussive hits."

At the most basic level, a team with an up-tempo offense runs more plays over the course of a game than one with a more traditional scheme, thus creating more opportunities for injuries. Louisiana Tech, then coached by early hurry-up adopters Sonny Dykes and Tony Franklin (both now at Cal), ran 87.8 plays per game last season, compared with 64.1 by Alabama and 66.1 by Bielema's Wisconsin team, respectively. That discrepancy is troubling to researchers like Talavage and Nauman, whose findings show that the cumulative effect of hits from practices and games on players -- particularly those most prone to contact, such as offensive and defensive linemen -- can be dangerous.

"For us the main thing is, 10 percent of kids will get concussions, but 50 percent will show changes in the way their brain behaves that is almost equivalent," said Nauman. "I'm not worried just about the defense, I'm worried about the linemen on both sides that might take 70 hits in a game. We're looking at somewhere between 60 to 90 hits to the head per week is all you want to take."

Researchers have consistently found that it's not just the number of hits that contribute to brain trauma, but the magnitude of those hits. That's why all those who were interviewed for this story stressed the risk that comes with fatigue-induced breakdowns in technique. A player who does exactly what he's been taught by his coaches -- blocking with hands, form-tackling -- should minimize the number of high-impact hits he sustains to the head.

However, linebackers and defensive backs worn down from chasing receivers all over the field are more inclined to lunge with their head. Exhausted linemen may default to a head-on bull rush rather than using their hands. "We would anticipate these issues become more problematic the more fatigued you are," said Talavage.

"Guys will do whatever they have to do to prevent touchdowns and will hit what they can how they can," said Benson, who added that the pass-heavy nature of many hurry-up offenses also plays a factor. "... Linebackers and D-backs are forced to cover more receivers, which means more running and more fatigue. Receivers are asked to go over the middle and on short routes in seams which makes them vulnerable to high-velocity, high-impact hits by defenders."

Keep in mind, any attempts to correlate tempo with a greater risk of injury is speculative at this point. No known study has been conducted. However, Steven P. Broglio, director of the University of Michigan's Neurotrama Research Laboratory, published a study last year that correlated head injuries with a team's style of offense.

Broglio's researchers spent a season measuring the number of head impacts on both a traditional run-first high school team in Illinois (it attempted just 8.8 passes per game) and a pass-first team in Michigan (25.6 attempts per game). Not surprisingly, players on the Illinois team -- with its abundance of bunched-up formations -- sustained 50 percent more head impacts over the course of their campaign. However, players in the more spread-out passing offense endured, on average, higher-magnitude hits, due in part to running backs' and receivers' abilities to accelerate more quickly before impact.

Still, Nauman does see one potential health benefit to hurry-up offenses.

"My sense from watching teams like Oregon is they're running so much, that their linemen aren't super massive guys," he said. "From an overall health perspective, that's probably a lot safer long-term than having some of these enormous 370-, 380-pound nose tackles. They probably do have healthy cardiac functions, but as soon as they stop playing their knees are done, they have all sorts of health issues later on. I'm not sure people should be trying to get that big. Hurry-up offenses could at least curtail that a little bit."

In the meantime, none of the concussion experts in this story suggested the NCAA or conferences should implement dramatic rules changes like the one proposed by Bielema. They don't yet have data to quantifiably conclude that hurry-up offenses are an issue.

"That's part of the problem in this area right now," said Dr. Micky Collins, director of the Sports Medicine Concussion Program at University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. "There's so much discussion and so much concern, I'm worried decisions will be made that are knee-jerk decisions that could cause harm if not made on solid scientific evidence." As an example, he pointed to the Pac-12's recent initiative to reduce allowable contact in practices. While driven by "phenomenally good" intentions, there's not yet evidence to conclude that the benefits of less frequent hitting in practice outweigh the potential harm done by reducing players' opportunities to hone tackling techniques so important to in-game safety.

"Before we change football, and change the game, having science is really important," said Collins. "It sounds like a reasonable study can be done, to see if the incidence of concussions is higher in [hurry-up] offenses than more traditional offenses."

That study wouldn't even necessarily be as labor-intensive as some of the others mentioned in this story, which required embedding teams with special equipment.

"If you focus just on the games, you could probably look at video tapes of games and the time stamps," said Anthony Kontos, Collins' colleague, who has studied concussions at the Pop Warner level. "When are injuries happening? How many [consecutive] plays were run prior to the injury?"

Perhaps Saban was genuinely concerned with more than just how to defend Ole Miss' no-huddle attack when he made his comments last October. "... At some point in time, we should look at how fast we allow the game to go in terms of player safety," Saban said. "... They're snapping the ball as fast as you can go and you look out there and all your players are walking around and can't even get lined up. That's when guys have a much greater chance of getting hurt, when they're not ready to play."

The people who study this stuff for a living believe Saban and Bielema make a valid point. But before pushing for any changes, they need more data to prove it.

This article is kind of all over the place, but I tried to bold some of the more interesting stuff.

Detroit_Dogg
Feb 2, 2008



Mike Leach Own Zone

quote:

My suggestion is rather than spending a bunch of time coming up with a bunch of really stupid rules, spend that time coaching harder,Worry about your own team and try to make your product better rather than trying to change the game so you don’t have to do anything.

MAO TSE-TUNGACUNT
Mar 31, 2008



What a ridiculous idea.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 9, 2007

Remind me to work out until I also am buff and have to keep a pillow in front of my okay I'll be honest this is like the 50th custom title I've done tonight and I'm just phoning it in now.

Wow Chip Kelly got out just in time.

Ghost of Reagan Past
Oct 7, 2003

Advice from above


Shimrra Jamaane posted:

Wow Chip Kelly got out just in time.
He's a genius mastermind who of course planned all this.

Raku
Nov 7, 2012

What's the matter!? Did you catch a bug!?


I think it's good? I mean these guys are getting hit really hard, and the way football just destroys people's bodies we need to do what we can to not kill these kids that everyone agrees are being exploited.

The NFL already does this too and it doesn't actually harm the No Huddle like a lot of people think. It still tires players out having to run in and out to make the 10 seconds, and if they're just running instead of playing pass happy, you eventually run out of people who can replace your linemen.

Seriously though if it's serious enough for people to protect millionaire athletes we should observe the same rules with college kids.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011



This is bullshit and I blame Nick Saban.

Ghost of Reagan Past
Oct 7, 2003

Advice from above


Raku posted:

I think it's good? I mean these guys are getting hit really hard, and the way football just destroys people's bodies we need to do what we can to not kill these kids that everyone agrees are being exploited.

The NFL already does this too and it doesn't actually harm the No Huddle like a lot of people think. It still tires players out having to run in and out to make the 10 seconds, and if they're just running instead of playing pass happy, you eventually run out of people who can replace your linemen.

Seriously though if it's serious enough for people to protect millionaire athletes we should observe the same rules with college kids.
NFL rules allow the defense time to sub only if the offense subs, and doesn't give them a guaranteed 10 seconds on every down to sub.

Roasted Donut
Aug 24, 2007

Duraznos is a nit-picking jerk.

p.s. Fuck Tebow


this is some mondo retard poo poo

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001



Good. I hate how seemingly every rule change is designed to help the offense, the lamest half the sport.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011



Sash! posted:

Good. I hate how seemingly every rule change is designed to help the offense, the lamest half the sport.

I hope you guys get stuck at the Meinke Car Care Bowl forever

Raku
Nov 7, 2012

What's the matter!? Did you catch a bug!?


Sash! posted:

Good. I hate how seemingly every rule change is designed to help the offense, the lamest half the sport.

Yeah the game was kind of imbalanced after this targeting stuff.

Thermos H Christ
Sep 6, 2007

running out of the mirror the smells roses roses the voice that breathed o'er eden

Ghost of Reagan Past posted:

NFL rules allow the defense time to sub only if the offense subs, and doesn't give them a guaranteed 10 seconds on every down to sub.

Don't the NCAA rules give the defense extra time to sub if the offense subs?

Ghost of Reagan Past
Oct 7, 2003

Advice from above


Thermos H Christ posted:

Don't the NCAA rules give the defense extra time to sub if the offense subs?
Yeah, they're the same in that regard, if I recall.

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001



Declan MacManus posted:

I hope you guys get stuck at the Meinke Car Care Bowl forever

Sorry that I find 63-59 games to be incredibly boring.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011



Sash! posted:

Sorry that I find 63-59 games to be incredibly boring.

Yeah but we weren't talking about college basketball

Spiritus Nox
Sep 2, 2011

Trust us, we're highly trained medical professionals bears.


Sash! posted:

Sorry that I find 63-59 games to be incredibly boring.

You hate touchdowns.

You hate the part where somebody carries the ball into the endzone.

You literally hate the entire goddamn point of football.

Raku
Nov 7, 2012

What's the matter!? Did you catch a bug!?


Spiritus Nox posted:

You hate touchdowns.

You hate the part where somebody carries the ball into the endzone.

You literally hate the entire goddamn point of football.

the point of football is sacks

Sorry if you're a retard that wants to watch people achieve something and not eat dirt.

Sweeney Tom
Aug 9, 2012

The elite quarterback, seen here in its natural element.

Give me pick-sixes and sacks over 6+-minute running drives any day. Defense rules

Spiritus Nox
Sep 2, 2011

Trust us, we're highly trained medical professionals bears.


Sweeney Tom posted:

Give me pick-sixes over 6+-minute running drives any day. Defense rules

You realize hurry up both enables bad air raids to throw more picks and everybody to run shorter drives, right? Win for everybody!

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010


Obtuse Cunt.
Please Do Not Engage.
Will bore you and everyone else with inane questions.




Spiritus Nox posted:

You realize hurry up both enables bad air raids to throw more picks and everybody to run shorter drives, right? Win for everybody!

Yeah, I don't think (e.g.) Stanford would be effected too much by not being able to snap the ball for 10 seconds when they try to drag out the clock as long as possible anyway.

R.D. Mangles
Jan 10, 2004


HEY NCAA gently caress Y'ALL GIMMICK OFFENSES ARE ALL WE'VE GOT

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001



Spiritus Nox posted:

You hate touchdowns.

You hate the part where somebody carries the ball into the endzone.

You literally hate the entire goddamn point of football.

Half the sport is stopping that from happening.

Why do you hate the point of football?

R.D. Mangles posted:

HEY NCAA gently caress Y'ALL GIMMICK OFFENSES ARE ALL WE'VE GOT

I recommend you cheat more.

R.D. Mangles
Jan 10, 2004


Sash! posted:

I recommend you cheat more.

I can't tell if this is a reference to Sonny Dykes's allegations of Northwestern faking injuries or if Sash! genuinely considers the forward pass an unsporting act of football dissimulation.

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001



R.D. Mangles posted:

I can't tell if this is a reference to Sonny Dykes's allegations of Northwestern faking injuries or if Sash! genuinely considers the forward pass an unsporting act of football dissimulation.

More of a "aren't you a wealthy private school...you figure the rest out."

R.D. Mangles
Jan 10, 2004


Sash! posted:

More of a "aren't you a wealthy private school...you figure the rest out."

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about unless it is about Northwestern leveraging its private school dollars to underhandedly recruit the worst players in college football history for several decades as part of a Producers-like scheme until finally breaking out and losing several Alamo bowls.

Thermos H Christ
Sep 6, 2007

running out of the mirror the smells roses roses the voice that breathed o'er eden

Until the NCAA bans Saban-style oversigning, I don't think they have the moral authority to make any other rules. And maybe if Saban wasn't allowed to power an unholy depth machine by burning the shattered dreams of impoverished student-athletes, it wouldn't be such a big deal to ban a strategy that lets opponents neutralize that depth a little.

It would still be loving stupid and detrimental to the game with rather questionable safety benefits, but it would be a little less repugnant overall.

Quest For Glory II
Dec 17, 2003



Every program cheats including Penn State there done I did it. I win

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I ate my other two brains.


Quest For Glory II posted:

Every program cheats including Penn State there done I did it. I win

I'll have you know that Penn State has run a squeaky-clean program for decades.

Frackie Robinson
Apr 26, 2008



I agree with Sash that something needs to be done to swing the game back in favor of the defense at least a bit, but this is not the way to do it.

Edit: I think the real root of this is the NCAA's continuing obsession with shortening the games. The games could stand to be shorter, but Christ, if that's the concern just chop minute or two off the quarter length. You're certainly not adding excitement to the game by forcing everybody to stand around and stare at the playclock for a few seconds each play.

Frackie Robinson fucked around with this message at Feb 13, 2014 around 04:45

dude789
Nov 4, 2009

I'll make your ass sense.

Ugh this is such a dumb change and I hope it gets shot down loudly. Hurry up offenses means more downs in a game which means more football overall and a higher concentration of said football in a game. The people who suggested this are fun vampires.

Sash!
Mar 16, 2001



Frackie Robinson posted:

I agree with Sash that something needs to be done to swing the game back in favor of the defense at least a bit, but this is not the way to do it.

Edit: I think the real root of this is the NCAA's continuing obsession with shortening the games. The games could stand to be shorter, but Christ, if that's the concern just chop minute or two off the quarter length. You're certainly not adding excitement to the game by forcing everybody to stand around and stare at the playclock for a few seconds each play.

I don't understand why they increased the play clock a few years ago anyhow!

Although I think we can all agree that the weird clock rules from 2007 were just terrible

Frackie Robinson
Apr 26, 2008



Sash! posted:

I don't understand why they increased the play clock a few years ago anyhow!

Although I think we can all agree that the weird clock rules from 2007 were just terrible

I think they thought it would speed up the games, but for whatever reason it didn't. Could someone refresh me on what the clock differences are between the NFL and NCAA? (other than clock stopping on first down) NFL games are consistently done in just over 3 hours, and I'm not sure what's making the difference at this point.

edit: The fact that they review every single thing hasn't helped either. This targeting bullshit probably added an average 3 minutes to every game.

Frackie Robinson fucked around with this message at Feb 13, 2014 around 04:56

Intruder
Mar 5, 2003

If you even dream of covering me you'd better wake up and apologize

I don't think you get an official straight up coming out onto the field and saying "TV timeout" in the NFL, though you still get commercials after every little thing

DinosaurEggSalad
Sep 4, 2008


Frackie Robinson posted:

I think they thought it would speed up the games, but for whatever reason it didn't. Could someone refresh me on what the clock differences are between the NFL and NCAA? (other than clock stopping on first down) NFL games are consistently done in just over 3 hours, and I'm not sure what's making the difference at this point.

Aside from that they're pretty similar, I don't know if it's a rules issue. Part of it is that NCAA halftimes are longer. This is total speculation, but part of it could also be on account of the lower quality of QB play leading leading to more incompletions and thus clock stoppages. I couldn't find any stats on leaguewide completion % for either league so that might be utter bullshit.

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RumbleFish
Dec 20, 2007

You wouldn't like him when he's angry.


One of the justifications I read for this was that it's intended as a way to curb all the complaints about faking injuries to slow teams down. Not sure how valid that is, but whatever; it's a pretty bad suggestion and hopefully it isn't implemented. However, it's making Clemson fans lose their poo poo, so that's at least entertaining.

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