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Good for them. ANC isn't for the workers anymore. One thing I'm curious about, though. In the EU, economic decline has lead to increased support for right wing/anti-immigrant parties. In South Africa it seems like the right wing parties are all "white" parties, while almost every other party openly claims to support, at the very least, social democracy. Is there a chance (or danger, I guess) that a black, anti-immigrant party could form and be successful? Or a black right wing party?
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May 16, 2014 08:08
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Badger of Basra posted:Good for them. ANC isn't for the workers anymore. Yeah we don't really have a traditional right wing/left wing split here. The DA is economically more liberal (traditionally a right wing position) and socially liberal. The ANC is far more of a proponent of typical Keynesian state intervention in the economy but there seems to be far more influence of religion, homophobia and xenophobia out of the ANC than the DA, although the party officially condemns the last two. Both however would be seen as insanely left wing through the lens of American politics. The only ones who would fit the traditional right wing mould are truly fringe guys from the FF+ and further out to crazy town. They get so little of the vote though that eventually they'll die off. There has been an increase in xenophobic attacks in the townships, but that is mostly black on black violence. Our immigrant situation is a weird one here. We make it incredibly hard to get a work permit legally, I have several friends and an ex who've been through the process and it's rough. However our borders are quite porous making illegal immigration fairly simple so we end up with plenty of unskilled labour coming in but letting in skilled foreigners to replace people we lost during the brain drain is incredibly difficult. It will be interesting to see what comes of NUMSA's party. With the SACP backing the ANC irrespective of how they treat workers there really isn't anyone who seems to represent them, the EFF is certainly trying to do the same. There's a pretty good article on it here http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-05-16-the-return-of-governments-iron-fist-and-numsas-mission-to-crush-it/#.U3XdD_mSyRM. Spamtheman fucked around with this message at 10:47 on May 16, 2014 |
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May 16, 2014 10:26
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There's also the ACDP, a multiracial "Christian right" party. But their vote share is tiny and shrinking (from 1.6% in 2004 to 0.6% in 2014). In many ways they're the closest cognate of the US Republicans. Social conservatism is an interesting facet of South African society -- we have a quite strongly and often fundamentalist Christian bent. However, we also have a constitution that guarantees freedom and equality for all regardless of religion, sexual orientation, etc. This has led to some interesting clashes between a socially conservative parliament and the constitutional court (e.g. the legalisation of gay marriage, where the court forced parliament to amend the laws to be in compliance with the constitution).
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May 16, 2014 18:41
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Spamtheman posted:Yeah we don't really have a traditional right wing/left wing split here. The DA is economically more liberal (traditionally a right wing position) and socially liberal. The ANC is far more of a proponent of typical Keynesian state intervention in the economy but there seems to be far more influence of religion, homophobia and xenophobia out of the ANC than the DA, although the party officially condemns the last two. Both however would be seen as insanely left wing through the lens of American politics.
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May 16, 2014 19:03
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More the latter I think. They still have (most of) their leftist allies, but the SACP and Cosatu have been supporting them with gritted teeth lately, and as mentioned a few pages back, one of Cosatu's four member unions has already left in disgust. In some ways, though, ruling the country is a tricky tightrope to walk. The poor are disgruntled by the massive wealth inequality, but the second anything vaguely leftist happens (e.g. the platinum workers strike), international investors and currency speculators trash the economy through disinvestment. For examples of this, try reading British newspapers talking about labour unrest in South Africa, or see the first page for a really terrible Bloomberg article.
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May 16, 2014 19:37
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The benefits of keeping foreign investment in your country depend on actually extracting enough from these companies either through sufficient wages or through taxes and a robust redistribution network. Sounds to me like South Africa isn't really getting either, so the question must be asked if pandering to these foreign investors is worth it. Now obviously, to Zuma, this question is going to be yes, even without the economic equation coming into it. Switching from the neoliberal system Mbeki installed to anything else is going to be very painful - and it's going to be political suicide for whoever sets that transition in motion. I'm guessing Zuma's more the type that decided it's safer to just play within the borders of the current system - I just think it's going to come and bite the ANC in the rear end in the long run.
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May 16, 2014 20:20
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Lead out in cuffs posted:The poor are disgruntled by the massive wealth inequality, but the second anything vaguely leftist happens (e.g. the platinum workers strike), international investors and currency speculators trash the economy through disinvestment. How do you recognize the platinum worker's strike as something "vaguely leftist"? I mean, what should they be doing to move from vaguely to 100% leftist? In any case, I don't really see any sort of major negative effect of the strike to the currency, nor to the economy as a whole, looking at FDI anyway. Even the platinum price has remained relatively stable, considering the circumstances. As a matter of fact, I reckon that there are international investors lining up right now to dump hundreds of billions of rands into the economy, as soon as the Oil / Gas exploration off Mossel bay is completed. Nevermind the whole shale gas / fracking story in the Karoo etc. The refinery being considered in PLZ alone is around R 100 Billion to establish, as an alternative to upgrading our existing refineries to make up the 200,000 barrel/day shortfall we are sitting with, and also plan for the future. I cannot agree with you that ZA's economy is being trashed in any sort of way right now, and I actually feel very positive for the way forward, economically anyway. In terms of the platinum worker's strike, I believe they have overplayed their hand. I will readily agree that these guys should be earning more money than they are, but the approach of R 12500 or nothing isn't viable, and it's not a position suitable for negotiation if they never move from it. We are now at a point where miners would rather starve than accept R 12450 for example, spurred on by Joseph Mathunjwa whilst he figures out which one of his BMWs he will drive today. I also have a huge issue with the fact that the striking miners are essentially a murderous mob, with however many people having been hacked, burnt, shot etc to death now. It really makes it difficult to feel any sort of sympathy when these guys stab a guy to death for going to work with the intent of earning a few bucks to feed his bloody kids for example. The wealth inequality issue can only ever be solved through firstly education. South Africa is not a poor country, SARS ensures that we have AMPLE cash to spend, certainly on important areas. Education is one of those areas. And we spend HUGE money on this area....yet, it is a failure, and results for Matric are PISS loving POOR! Every year. And after year after year of pisspoor results, governments solution is to lower the passing grades so stats look better. And at the same time, we can't even supply a kid in Tzaneen with a textbook to study off, because of some tender rigging in the name of BEE, so some ANC connected individual can upgrade his Merc to a Maserati.
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May 24, 2014 00:46
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BlueBull posted:How do you recognize the platinum worker's strike as something "vaguely leftist"? I mean, what should they be doing to move from vaguely to 100% leftist? On a scale of leftist courses of action between engaging in social democracy and actively pursuing violent proletarian revolution, industrial action is certainly "vaguely" leftist. That, and the current move towards forming ANC-independent labour parties, is probably about the best case scenario given the vast wealth inequality in South Africa. BlueBull posted:In any case, I don't really see any sort of major negative effect of the strike to the currency, nor to the economy as a whole, looking at FDI anyway. Even the platinum price has remained relatively stable, considering the circumstances. The rand lost about about 40% of its value over the past year and a bit.  There are almost certainly other factors feeding into that, but the timeline fits with Marikana and the strikes a little too neatly.BlueBull posted:In terms of the platinum worker's strike, I believe they have overplayed their hand. I will readily agree that these guys should be earning more money than they are, but the approach of R 12500 or nothing isn't viable, and it's not a position suitable for negotiation if they never move from it. We are now at a point where miners would rather starve than accept R 12450 for example, spurred on by Joseph Mathunjwa whilst he figures out which one of his BMWs he will drive today. How much money is reasonable for one of the highest-risk jobs in the country? How much do you personally earn? BlueBull posted:I also have a huge issue with the fact that the striking miners are essentially a murderous mob, with however many people having been hacked, burnt, shot etc to death now. It really makes it difficult to feel any sort of sympathy when these guys stab a guy to death for going to work with the intent of earning a few bucks to feed his bloody kids for example. So let's break this down. One NUM member was found stabbed yesterday, after scabbing. There have been no arrests and no witnesses, only the allegations of NUM (who have an axe to grind with AMCU). But even if this was actually a case where the scab was stabbed by AMCU members, which is certainly possible but not in any way verified, you are willing to generalise from the actions of a few members to calling the entirety of a union of 50,000 a "murderous mob". That's just not very rational thinking, there. BlueBull posted:The wealth inequality issue can only ever be solved through firstly education. South Africa is not a poor country, SARS ensures that we have AMPLE cash to spend, certainly on important areas. Education is one of those areas. And we spend HUGE money on this area....yet, it is a failure, and results for Matric are PISS loving POOR! Every year. I don't think most of us in the thread would strongly disagree with what you are trying to convey in these two paragraphs. As I'm sure you've read on the last two pages, both education and tenders have come up. You seem to have valid points to contribute, but frothing at the mouth in all-caps is not the best way to go about it.
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May 24, 2014 02:35
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Lead out in cuffs posted:On a scale of leftist courses of action between engaging in social democracy and actively pursuing violent proletarian revolution, industrial action is certainly "vaguely" leftist. That, and the current move towards forming ANC-independent labour parties, is probably about the best case scenario given the vast wealth inequality in South Africa. Except of course that this industrial action by the platinum workers has been marred by violence, including the killing of police officers, non-striking members, rival union workers and so on. Is the behaviour of the platinum strikers an example of industrial action to you? Do tell me more about these new labour parties, and how they will address the vast wealth inequality in RSA. Lead out in cuffs posted:The rand lost about about 40% of its value over the past year and a bit. Drop in value against what, USD, EUR, Zim dollah? Please provide links to support this claim of a 40% "loss of it's value over the past year and a bit". Let's sweep that whole global economy story under the carpet as well while we at it. Lead out in cuffs posted:How much money is reasonable for one of the highest-risk jobs in the country? How much do you personally earn? You tell me how much money you feel they should be paid. Please make sure to also provide us with salaries of other high-risk jobs in the country, such as being a security guard for example, maybe a teacher as well, police officer and so on. Lead out in cuffs posted:So let's break this down. One NUM member was found stabbed yesterday, after scabbing. There have been no arrests and no witnesses, only the allegations of NUM (who have an axe to grind with AMCU). But even if this was actually a case where the scab was stabbed by AMCU members, which is certainly possible but not in any way verified, you are willing to generalise from the actions of a few members to calling the entirety of a union of 50,000 a "murderous mob". That's just not very rational thinking, there. Except that it isn't just one guy stabbed the other day. There's also the two cops who were hacked to death. And a shop steward here and there. And a few guys who got killed for going to work by the union members, after all, how dare they try make some money to feed their family. How about you tell me why all these strikers are forever carrying weapons during their protests? Lead out in cuffs posted:I don't think most of us in the thread would strongly disagree with what you are trying to convey in these two paragraphs. As I'm sure you've read on the last two pages, both education and tenders have come up. You seem to have valid points to contribute, but frothing at the mouth in all-caps is not the best way to go about it. Having read the last two pages, "most of us in this thread" is you and maybe two other loving posters before I rocked up. Maybe you can team up with them to conjure up supporting info on that 40% loss of value over the last year and a half for our currency.
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May 31, 2014 01:41
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BlueBull posted:Drop in value against what, USD, EUR, Zim dollah? Please provide links to support this claim of a 40% "loss of it's value over the past year and a bit". Let's sweep that whole global economy story under the carpet as well while we at it.
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May 31, 2014 02:58
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BlueBull posted:Except of course that this industrial action by the platinum workers has been marred by violence, including the killing of police officers, non-striking members, rival union workers and so on. Is the behaviour of the platinum strikers an example of industrial action to you? You can look at the history of any unionization movement and it looks exactly like that,usually how it goes. For ill or not it's nothing particular to these miners specifically. And if the police are like police anywhere else it the world when it comes to strikes and I'd have weapons too. Scabs have always been an issue but framing it as how dare they try make some money to feed their family pretty much shows your position on this it's not going to make sense to you because you don't think they should be striking in this first place. Everything the unionist would hypothetically do that isn't stop striking and get back to work would piss you off. SirKibbles fucked around with this message at 04:03 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 03:50
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BlueBull posted:Do tell me more about these new labour parties, and how they will address the vast wealth inequality in RSA. How else do you propose addressing it?  BlueBull posted:Drop in value against what, USD, EUR, Zim dollah? Please provide links to support this claim of a 40% "loss of it's value over the past year and a bit". Let's sweep that whole global economy story under the carpet as well while we at it. Versus the pound, for sure. It's closer to 30%, now that I do the sums, but you're firstly picking on semantics, and secondly arguing over a point which you could have verified in about five seconds of Googling. http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=ZAR&view=2Y http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=ZAR&view=2Y BlueBull posted:You tell me how much money you feel they should be paid. Please make sure to also provide us with salaries of other high-risk jobs in the country, such as being a security guard for example, maybe a teacher as well, police officer and so on. I trust the workers' own assessment of R12,500 per month. You still haven't said what they should be paid, or what you yourself are paid, and why you feel you deserve to be paid that, while they deserve to be paid so much less. But hey, facts are good, even if your argument is terrible, so here goes: Teachers start at R13,500 per month and go up from there. Police officers start at R8,760 in Johannesburg, 6,205 elsewhere. This is shockingly low. Security guards apparently sit closer to R3,500 per month, which is pretty terrible. PS: the fatality rate of mine workers is around 0.75 per 1,000 workers per year. So a worker who is employed in the mines for 25 years has nearly a 2% chance of dying in the process. The police officer fatality rate is around 0.3 per 1,000 officers per year -- high, but not as high as mine workers. BlueBull posted:Except that it isn't just one guy stabbed the other day. There's also the two cops who were hacked to death. And a shop steward here and there. And a few guys who got killed for going to work by the union members, after all, how dare they try make some money to feed their family. Others have answered this quite nicely. BlueBull posted:Having read the last two pages, "most of us in this thread" is you and maybe two other loving posters before I rocked up. Maybe you can team up with them to conjure up supporting info on that 40% loss of value over the last year and a half for our currency. There have been half a dozen native South African posters so far, and plenty of DnD regulars poking their heads in. All of them have been civil and often witty. You have managed to be neither. I mean for gently caress's sake, I actually agreed with you in that post, and all you could do was to try to pick on a fact you could easily have verified and which supported your own arguments, just for the sake of being belligerent. Please at least make an attempt. 
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May 31, 2014 07:25
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So, in the news lately: Jacob Zuma appoints his cabinet, then promptly takes medical leave while off in hospital for tests  . If anyone was worried about him being an impossible-to-remove strongman leader, this is a reminder that the man is 72 this year. Or maybe he was ordered by the ANC’s national executive committee to take a break, and went for a medical?Meanwhile, members of the ANCYL marched on the Mail and Guardian's offices to deliver a memorandum demanding "fair, objective, balanced and accurate reporting", which apparently means reporting that never criticises the ANC. It sounds like the march was mostly a bunch of young hotheads, and didn't enjoy much support from the rest of the party. The editor of the paper also came out and addressed them, and it all seemed to be fairly good natured. Still, the march was quite precious. Slogans on posters included "Media Bias = High Treason", and "An attack on the president is an attack on the ANC and democracy". At one point a speaker announced, "We must regulate. We must regulate, like in Russia, what these monkeys are writing."   
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Jun 9, 2014 06:07
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Lead out in cuffs posted:
Aheh.. Did you read the comments this piece got? i am of course aware that as such, comments on any article of any topic on the net from politics through sports to games are terrible in 90% of cases, but these comments made my skin feel more tingly than usual.  Also, thank you for this thread, I have no connection to and some basic knowledge of SA, but I'm always interested in learning more of any country on Earth fromsources within, until fascists kill us all here in Europe  Ed: and this may be necroing, depending on tolerance. Forgive me. Porrima fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 11:43
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Porrima posted:Aheh.. Did you read the comments this piece got? i am of course aware that as such, comments on any article of any topic on the net from politics through sports to games are terrible in 90% of cases, but these comments made my skin feel more tingly than usual. Ah, yes, being Dutch, you get to read the Afrikaans-language comments. I do believe there are a somewhat higher proportion of racists and/or whiners about lost white privilege among Afrikaans-speaking white South Africans than among English-speakers. They're not the totality, and hopefully not even a majority, but can produce some seriously  comments on articles. Really, though, read down further, especially the English comments from students with Dutch-sounding names, and probably more interestingly the comments from students with native African names. I think young (university-educated = moderately wealthy middle class) South Africans of all races are a lot more thoughtful and tolerant.Porrima posted:Also, thank you for this thread, I have no connection to and some basic knowledge of SA, but I'm always interested in learning more of any country on Earth fromsources within, until fascists kill us all here in Europe You're welcome. And don't be too worried about the fascists. I know the Netherlands is in a bad place, with the far-right crazies in the ruling coalition, but in general Europe is a very long way from being overrun by fascists. Porrima posted:Ed: and this may be necroing, depending on tolerance. Forgive me. Eh, no worries. The election's over, but politics grind on. I've been meaning to keep things somewhat updated, but there hasn't been too much discussion, so...
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Jun 28, 2014 22:12
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Porrima posted:Also, thank you for this thread, I have no connection to and some basic knowledge of SA, but I'm always interested in learning more of any country on Earth fromsources within, until fascists kill us all here in Europe You're doing a lot better than my first comments in this thread! I just lurk here since it's my only source of information on current events in SA-I don't have anything to contribute aside from stupid questions. I really need to find some good, non-ideological text I can use to give myself a basic education on the country. vvvvv I love you. Yet another set of resources I can use to put off studying for the bar! And bonus: my library has them! Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 22:37
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http://www.amazon.com/South-Africa-A-Modern-History/dp/0312233760 It's not light reading, but it is the definitive history text. A lot of universities use this as a textbook. It stops in 1999 (if you can find the 5th edition), but you could probably supplement recent history details from the below sites: http://africacheck.org/ http://www.issafrica.org/publications -- also not light reading, heavy on policy wonkishness, but you are in D&D.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:54
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