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Best Producer/Showrunner? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Verity Lambert |
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49 | 7.04% |
| John Wiles |
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1 | 0.14% |
| Innes Lloyd |
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1 | 0.14% |
| Peter Bryant |
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3 | 0.43% |
| Derrick Sherwin |
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3 | 0.43% |
| Barry Letts |
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12 | 1.72% |
| Phillip Hinchcliffe |
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62 | 8.91% |
| Graham Williams |
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3 | 0.43% |
| John Nathan-Turner |
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15 | 2.16% |
| Philip Segal |
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3 | 0.43% |
| Russel T Davies |
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106 | 15.23% |
| Steven Moffat |
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114 | 16.38% |
| Son Goku |
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324 | 46.55% |
| Total: | 696 votes | ||
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Did anybody here predict, immediately, that The Impossible Astronaut was River Song? Because I had no damned clue, but re-watching tonight, it seems really obvious.
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Aug 16, 2014 13:26
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Yes. The majority of people even predicted she was Amy and Rory's kid.
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Aug 16, 2014 13:30
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PriorMarcus posted:Yes. The majority of people even predicted she was Amy and Rory's kid. Or worse, he'd pay lip service to the theory on-screen, then include a line of dialog that openly mocked people who figured it out before showing us the new truth. I loved both reveals and I won't apolgize for it.
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Aug 16, 2014 14:04
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LividLiquid posted:I'm glad the rest of entertainment isn't run like pro wrestling, because the moment anybody suggested this was the case on the internet, Moffat would've dropped the storyline entirely or changed it to something that made no sense. The reveals we got made sense? Also that's fine. We're sorry for you.
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Aug 16, 2014 14:07
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Silence in the Library/The Forest of the Dead are two episodes that worked very well for me on a first watch, and work just as well if not better with the benefit of hindsight. They're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, and feature elements of the show that can be quite divisive - most of all in the introduction of River Song. But they're atmospheric, feature a fantastic subplot with Donna that foreshadows her end-of-season fate, and perhaps most importantly of all further the Robert Holmes tradition of making children as scared of everyday things as possible. They're also stories that feature the Doctor very much on the back foot and in a reactive state, forced to question many things he takes for granted about himself - though if anything by the end of the 2-parter he is more confident in himself than ever before. With the benefit of hindsight, and giving Moffat perhaps a bit too much credit, it feels like these were stories that were setting the scene for the Doctor that Moffat would be writing when he took over the show (discussions had been ongoing as early as 2007 about Moffat being RTD's successor, and it was made official a little before these episodes aired). The Doctor and Donna arrive at THE Library, the largest collection of reading material in the known universe - an entire planet, made up of continents of physical copies of every work in existence as well as a massive computer harddrive back-up. Surprisingly though the library is deserted, there is nobody to be found anywhere on the planet, though the Doctor finds the computer system is registering only two humanoid life-forms (he and Donna) but many millions of "other" lifeforms. A creepy talking face on an information pillar (though the make-up is less than convincing) emotionlessly gives them the message to run and "count the shadows", which is when the shadows start to emerge, creeping up on the Doctor and Donna, turning out lights. They make a run for it and encounter a security camera (whose POV of the scene we saw at the start of the episode) and then another group of humans arrive on the scene, looking like the Ambassadors.... OF DEATH but mostly friendly and accomodating This is our first introduction to River Song, a somewhat controversial and rather divisive character. Very much in the vein of the New Adventures' Bernice Summerfield, she's an archeologist/adventurer with seemingly intimate knowledge of the Doctor.... and yet he's never met her. She's frustratingly smug, bossy, and a bit of a know-it-all and the Doctor instantly distrusts her and refuses to believe anything she says. That's actually quite fun, because she is essentially acting exactly like the Doctor does when he meets people and he doesn't at all appreciate being on the other side of that equation. There are solid emotional moments from her character (played very well by Alex Kingston) as she realizes that the Doctor is "young" and has never met her before, and despite the fact this is her first ever appearance in the show she (and the writing) do a very good job of making her feel like an established character who has a history with the Doctor. Her final sacrifice is a wonderful and bittersweet moment enhanced greatly by Tennant's portrayal of the Doctor's misery - even though he doesn't know her, he'd already started to get that sense of the chemistry between them, the interplay of words and one-upmanship as their egos clashed. River Song is a fascinating character whether considered in the vacuum of these two episodes, or with the hindsight of the episodes that would follow with her appearances in them. In either case, perhaps the strongest moment in both episodes is when River makes the decision to sacrifice herself and realizes what that means. When she first realizes the Doctor is "young" it is because his eyes don't seem to have the age to them she is used to. Now she understands that every time they met in HER past/his future, he was forever aware that she was doomed, that she was eagerly racing to her death and that there was nothing he could do to save her (though being the Doctor, he kind of does anyway). This also has to color her perception of their relationship in another way - did he go on all those adventures with her, uneasily half-stringing her along as she shamelessly flirted or proclaimed their undying love, because it HAD to be done? How deep were his feelings for her? Was she just another companion with a more complex history? Did he genuinely feel for her? Or does she remain convinced of his sincerity right to the bitter end? From her character's POV and from our take as the audience it's a rather interesting thing to consider - was it just guilt that made up the bulk of the Doctor's relationship with River? Of course with hindsight we're able to look at things from a more complex perspective. We know that for a lengthy part of their adventures together it was the opposite and River was wracked with guilt thinking that SHE would be responsible for the Doctor's death, so maybe turnabout was fair play. These later episodes couldn't help but somewhat dilute the impact of this two-parter in some ways, and enhance it in others. In all honesty I thought at the time that these episodes aired that we never needed to see River again, that all the many adventures they did have together could have just as easily played out with the 10th Doctor unseen inbetween episodes/seasons - I thought that would have worked pretty well, that the Doctor would have gone out looking for this River Song knowing that he was fated to meet her and have any number of adventures with her, not because he particularly wanted to but because it was her last wish to him - her co-opting of Hartnell's old line that he didn't dare change a single line of her history, that she wouldn't give up her adventures with him even knowing how things would end. On the other hand, seeing her adventures with the 11th Doctor do make her rather disappointed reaction to the 10th Doctor make a hell of a lot of sense. Considering the crazy poo poo we saw the two of them get up to, it's really no wonder that he seems so unimpressive when all he can manage is triumphantly tossing pieces of chicken into the shadows and he can't even open the TARDIS doors with a snap of his fingers. The River/Doctor relationship tends to dominate a lot of discussion of these stories, but while all that is going on there are two major subplots occurring as well. One is the story of the little girl Cal, who is being aided by good Doctor Moon to help with her odd daydreaming. The other is Donna's perfect life falling apart at the seams as she slowly has to face up to the realization that nothing in it is real. It's a tragedy sold beautifully by Catherine Tate, who is forcibly teleported by Cal to "save" her from the Library, her mind kept alive by a false reality that attempts to keep her happy in a fantasy of the perfect life. Scene cuts become troubling jumps in time and space, at first explained away by the helpful Doctor Moon and later by Donna herself as she is introduced to and convinced to take an active part in maintaining the fantasy. But once it is revealed to her in a fantastic scene where careful editing delays the revelation of the truth about the children of the community, she simply can't maintain the illusion no matter how much she actually wants to. Her children, mere projections into her mind, question their own reality and tell her that when she isn't around or closes her eyes it feels like they simply stop existing. Tate sells the desperation and longing to hold on to what she knows is not real so well, and when it all falls apart she has to face the possibility that maybe her perfect husband also isn't real, a question he asks himself. Upon her return to the library she looks for him but can't find him, and the tragedy is enhanced by a comedic turn when he turns out to be real but his stutter prevents him calling out to her before being teleported away, costing her a shot at a love that was very real even if the world they lived in was not. It was a good idea to separate her from the main action of the story and give her a meaty subplot of her own, and she does an excellent job carrying the emotional weight of it. The supporting characters are broadly drawn but none of them really feel excess to requirements. A good effort is made to make River's team feel like just that, a team of people with a history together, even if there is little depth to most of them. The two outsides of the group - Mister Lux and Miss Evangelista - are both more than they appear, though more accurately Miss Evangelista becomes different to what she was, the "ghost" of her mind saved to CAL but distorted in visual appearance and coincidentally given a boost in IQ that allows her to reveal the truth to Donna. The "real" her is a tragic figure, callously treated by the others and only given a moment of respect AFTER she dies and everybody gathers around to listen to the confused questioning of her fading "ghost". Lux (played by Steve Pemberton from The League of Gentlemen), meanwhile, appears to be the scuzzy corporate type more interested in profits than people, and turns out to be very human after all, his concern very much in finding and protecting his old Aunt Cal. Doctor Moon (played by Colin Salmon, known for James Bond films and the TV series Arrow) is charming and reassuring, the absolutely perfect figure to step in and with authority proclaim that everything is okay and you remember (or forget) what he wants you to. The little girl who plays Cal is perfectly adequate, nothing outstanding but she could have been a lot worse, especially given the emotional highs (or lows, rather) she needs to portray. There are plenty of issues of course. The Vashta Nerada are creepy villains, but they do suffer from being so ill-defined and "powerful". They don't exist in every shadow but they can exist in ANY shadow.... but if there are as many of them as there are supposed to be why don't they just swarm on the entire party in one go and devour them? Why creep up and stick around attached to a single potential victim for so long? What benefit is there to swarming into a suit and stomping about it in it after the survivors? They appear to be intelligent and capable of co-opting the neural "ghost" of their victims to roughly communicate, so are they just enjoying the thrill of hunting and seeing their victims squirm or feel terror? This episode also is a pretty clear example of Moffat's re-use of certain elements, most particularly in the repetitive use of a mundane term for the creepiness factor. In season 1, "Are you my mummy" was pretty chilling, and "Hey, who turned out the lights?" and "Donna Noble has been saved" are too... until they are overused to the point of absurdity. The cliffhanger of Silence in the Library goes right through creepy into hilarious as it devolves into a shouting match between Dave's suit and Donna's information node, repeating the same phrase over and over again. Forest of the Dead is also the first time (I can recall) where the Doctor uses his reputation to scare off an alien menace, and while the first time it happened it was quite effective, it has since been a trifle overused (though it's also failed far more than it has ever succeeded, to be fair). The Vashta Nerada are thus basically removed from the story without actually being defeated, they choose to stand aside on the basis that they've read in the library that it doesn't pay to cross the Doctor. That feels much too close to a cheat to me, though it is very much a part of the story that the Doctor is coming to realize the strength of his reputation and maybe beginning to buy into his own advertising. In the first part he scoffs at the idea of opening the TARDIS with a snap of his fingers, but in the second part he has come to believe it is something that will work for him (and it does). There's also the fact that the scope of the Library is never particularly well realized - it's an entire planet, but we see only the barest portion of it, and it's unclear if the 4000+ people Cal saved were the entirety of the people using the Library at the time, or if everybody else was killed (in which case where are the bodies?). With River dead and the people saved, the Doctor somehow (Lux?) gets free of his restraints and finds Donna. They ponder the secrets of River's diary momentarily and then choose to keep the future as "spoilers", heading away on a very nice slow zoom in on the camera and the Sonic Screwdriver that his future self gifted to River.... until the Doctor rushes back. Throughout the story he continually questioned why he would give his screwdriver to River, unwilling to accept her insistence it was because of the depth of their relationship. It turns out they were both right, and in another example of Moffat's penchant for having the Doctor perform the impossible via temporal shenanigans, realizes that his future self gave her the screwdriver so he could save an imprint of her mind for his younger self to upload into Cal's now far less stressed system. It's another "cheat", just an echo, a copy of the actual River who has died (though he couldn't resist suggesting there might be something more to it in The Name of the Doctor) but it is his way of paying some kind of tribute to River, to giving her a semblance of immortality as thank you for the sacrifice she made. In that sense, it is the same as Lux's grandfather's desire to keep the memory/mind of his daughter alive in the Library, and a gesture of kindness... though of course River can't help but laugh at the fact that in the end the Doctor got the final word after all. The Library 2-parter has its problems, but it's as well regarded as it is for very good reason. It's atmospheric, creepy, intriguing, tragic with just the right moments of comedy to lighten the mood. It introduces a character who for better or worse would have a big impact on the show, gives Donna a good, solid subplot to get her teeth into, and lets David Tennant show his range as the Doctor struggles to keep on top of the lethal situation, the dwindling group of survivors and understand the maddening premise of his supposed relationship with River Song. Season 4 is the best of David Tennant's seasons as the Doctor, and this 2-parter is arguably the high point of that season - it's well worth watching.
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Aug 16, 2014 14:26
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Wow, my mind is being messed with left and right. First, I never even knew there was some sort of drama surrounding Journey - I may give it a re-watch, but from my initial viewing I never walked away with any racist feelings, I think a lot of times 'racism' in media delves into the realm of connecting dots that don't need connecting. But I could be remembering poorly. The real MIND BLOWN moment was that it took me this long (and you guys outright saying she was a blue character) for me to realize that Karen Gillan was a sorta main character in Guardians. I was looking for her as a side character we meet and forget, not the Big Bad's #2. She really did disappear into that, because I was actively LOOKING. I wasn't looking for something so obvious though, I guess. On the cosplay note, I *really* wanted to do a Second Doctor, because outside of 8 he's my fav, but I'm also 6'2 which I imagine would be ridiculous (or just look like a bad Eleven)
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Aug 16, 2014 15:29
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McGann posted:Wow, my mind is being messed with left and right. First, I never even knew there was some sort of drama surrounding Journey - I may give it a re-watch, but from my initial viewing I never walked away with any racist feelings, I think a lot of times 'racism' in media delves into the realm of connecting dots that don't need connecting. I didn't start following any of these threads until "Nightmare In Silver", so that dimension of it didn't really occur to me until it was pointed out in a subsequent thread a little while after the fact. Of course, because I have since discovered that Steven Moffat was covering up for Jimmy Savile the past twenty years, has fifteen skulls buried under his front porch, lists King Leopold II of Belgium as his personal hero and co-wrote a recipe book with Idi Amin, I suppose I needn't be surprised. 
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Aug 16, 2014 15:46
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Jerusalem posted:the tragedy is enhanced by a comedic turn when he turns out to be real but his stutter prevents him calling out to her before being teleported away, costing her a shot at a love that was very real even if the world they lived in was not. There's nothing comedic about that turn! It's nothing short of heartbreaking! I too quite that particular two parter, it's one of those ones where while the antagonist doesn't really make sense, it doesn't really get in the way because it's so watchable. I liked the fake-out ending with the Doctor sort of saving River, but I found the bit where he just jumps down a massive elevator shaft kind of lame, in the same way (but much less than) the bit in Voyage of the Damned when he is carried to the heavens by golden angels. I guess the shaft had some sort of gravity thing which is why he wasn't flattened and forced to regenerate at the bottom. I'm not a big fan of River's character at all, but I do like her a lot in this one. I think partially I'm not a fan of her later appearances because seeing their relationship more takes away some of the implied magic. Ultimately I feel like it doesn't live up to what we see here.
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Aug 16, 2014 16:11
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Women: if they can't live the life of independent adventure and exploration they had before then they will be just as happy being a virtual mother to two virtual kids in a virtual world. Truly, a species ruled by their virtual womb.
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Aug 16, 2014 16:14
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PoshAlligator posted:There's nothing comedic about that turn! It's nothing short of heartbreaking! Agreed. I've been around enough stutterers to know how debilitating it can be. It's kind of hard to find humor in it after that.
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Aug 16, 2014 16:28
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PriorMarcus posted:Women: if they can't live the life of independent adventure and exploration they had before then they will be just as happy being a virtual mother to two virtual kids in a virtual world. Truly, a species ruled by their virtual womb. Parenthood changes your entire perspective on life, and the kids were real to her.
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Aug 16, 2014 16:29
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TL posted:Parenthood changes your entire perspective on life, and the kids were real to her. Yeah, that's a Moffat view but it's not just regarding women. The last episode of Coupling was capped by a monologue about kids changing everything by the lead male character.
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Aug 16, 2014 17:22
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Fil5000 posted:Paradise Towers is some good poo poo, why would it ever be bottom ten? It's got Richard Briars chewing the scenery, cannibalistic old biddies, robo lobster and endless "orchestra house blast" on the soundtrack. Also it's got Clive Merrison in it and is therefore the first Doctor Who/Sherlock crossover. Paradise Towers is stupendous and one of my favourite oldWho things. Red Kangs, Red Kangs, Red Kangs are best!
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Aug 16, 2014 18:06
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The thing that gets me about Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS is the treatment of Tricky by his brothers. Their literal inhuman regard for him treated as a joke, basically making him a slave and it goes barely admonished by the Doctor. He's the brightest of all three, got caught in a terrible accident and the others use it as an excuse to make him their servant. It genuinely makes me slightly teary. 
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Aug 16, 2014 18:36
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Watched half of The Tenth Planet today and WHY HAVE I BEEN PUTTING OFF HARTNELL UNTIL LAST? I was worried about cheaper than usual production values and lots of mistakes, took a lot just to get me into Pertwee for that reason. I usually sit and dick around on my tablet while watching the older ones, but by Episode 2 I was fully involved. Plus, Mondasian cybermen are the best.
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Aug 16, 2014 18:37
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McGann posted:Plus, Mondasian cybermen are the best. They are the only good Cybermen.
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Aug 16, 2014 18:39
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McGann posted:Watched half of The Tenth Planet today and WHY HAVE I BEEN PUTTING OFF HARTNELL UNTIL LAST? I was worried about cheaper than usual production values and lots of mistakes, took a lot just to get me into Pertwee for that reason. I usually sit and dick around on my tablet while watching the older ones, but by Episode 2 I was fully involved. I thought that the reconstructions would put me off but then I watched "The Myth Makers" and it was better than most of Season 1. Also I don't care what anyone says "The Space Museum" is hilarious 
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Aug 16, 2014 19:04
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The Myth Makers is uncommonly incredible.
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Aug 16, 2014 19:08
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There's a lot of frenetic inventiveness in the Hartnell years that makes the pacing a little more bearable. Not all of it was good, but I'd say that most of it is more creative (though not better) than a lot of Tom Baker. I think the only period that really matches the Hartnell stuff in creativity is maybe McCoy's stuff. Paradise Towers, The Happiness Patrol, Greatest Show in the Galaxy, Ghost Light...
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Aug 16, 2014 19:29
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The Hartnell Years were unlike anything else on television at the time. The music, the direction, the conception, the ideas - they were unprecedented.
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Aug 16, 2014 19:57
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Rochallor posted:There's a lot of frenetic inventiveness in the Hartnell years that makes the pacing a little more bearable. Not all of it was good, but I'd say that most of it is more creative (though not better) than a lot of Tom Baker. I guess I should reveal this secret I've been keeping...Baker is one of my least favorite Doctors to watch. Not anything to do with his portrayal, but the episodes are so hit or miss, I think I was oversold on his being the "best" era of Who. I'll go repent now and listen to an FDA while I run errands.
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Aug 16, 2014 20:06
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The thing about Tom's era is that it's just SO BIG it loops itself and creates multiple eras.
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Aug 16, 2014 20:33
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McGann posted:I guess I should reveal this secret I've been keeping...Baker is one of my least favorite Doctors to watch. Not anything to do with his portrayal, but the episodes are so hit or miss, I think I was oversold on his being the "best" era of Who. Hey, my favorite Doctor is Eight and all his Big Finish stuff is my favorite "era." There's room enough in this fandom for all of us!
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Aug 16, 2014 20:48
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 ONLY ONE WEEK LEFT Are we doing weekly threads, or just a series-long one?
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Aug 16, 2014 20:55
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CobiWann posted:Hey, my favorite Doctor is Eight and all his Big Finish stuff is my favorite "era." There's room enough in this fandom for all of us! I dunno, I got interviewed by Lindalee Rose, I think you guys need to let me run all the threads from now on
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Aug 16, 2014 20:58
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DoctorWhat posted:I dunno, I got interviewed by Lindalee Rose, I think you guys need to let me run all the threads from now on
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Aug 16, 2014 21:11
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I've been on vacation in a complete media blackout for about a week now. Did I miss anything? New Doctor Who soon, anyway! Should be exciting.
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Aug 16, 2014 22:29
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Bicyclops posted:I've been on vacation in a complete media blackout for about a week now. Did I miss anything? New Doctor Who soon, anyway! Should be exciting. You missed this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAPFYp1sTDU#t=94 and everything associated with that insane day. Basically just read my posts from the past 4 days. Also, even for non-Bicyclops people, that's a pro-click.
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Aug 16, 2014 23:03
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DoctorWhat posted:They are the only good Cybermen. Talosian cybermen in Tomb
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Aug 16, 2014 23:05
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Talosian cybermen in Tomb Eh. LividLiquid posted:I feel like we're seeing Doctor Yana open his fob watch here. Now that you mention it, I've been hearing this thesaurus in my head for a few days now...
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Aug 16, 2014 23:07
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Hey y'all I'm just gonna throw in that I really love Keff McCulloch's rendition of the main theme. Those minor synth chords man.
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Aug 16, 2014 23:36
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DoctorWhat posted:
Here we go again, another voyage 'round the English language...
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Aug 16, 2014 23:38
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Gaz-L posted:Here we go again, another voyage 'round the English language... What's the use of a good Doctor if you can't quote them?
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Aug 16, 2014 23:42
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DoctorWhat posted:What's the use of a good Doctor if you can't quote them? Oh for God's sake.
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Aug 16, 2014 23:55
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CobiWann posted:Oh for God's sake. You want me... to become a god? /timeschampion
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Aug 17, 2014 00:00
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DoctorWhat posted:You want me... to become a god? /timeschampion Honestly, Doctor, stop being so melodramatic!
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Aug 17, 2014 00:12
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Anyone else going to see Deep Breath in Theaters on the 25th since their town wasn't selected for the Midnight showing or World Tour?
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Aug 17, 2014 00:13
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CobiWann posted:Honestly, Doctor, stop being so melodramatic! Am I not permetted the occasional moment of melodrama? bpc908 posted:Anyone else going to see Deep Breath in Theaters on the 25th since their town wasn't selected for the Midnight showing or World Tour? I actually got tickets for that well in advance of the NYC tour being announced, so I'll be at the NYC 25th event as well!
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Aug 17, 2014 00:15
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CaptainYesterday posted:
Weekly threads have been the standard for a while now. Absent anyone else, I was planning on putting one up in the week at some point.
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Aug 17, 2014 00:23
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 08:29 |
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The Mirror is reporting that Jenna Coleman is leaving at Christmas.
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Aug 17, 2014 00:26
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