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Overview: The protests began in November with Yanakovich backing out of preliminary steps to join the EU. Protestors seized the center of the city and have been camping there ever since. The entirety of the occupation has been peaceful overall with a total death toll of 3 prior to February 18th. After the 18th however violence erupted after a clash outside of the parliament building. And then this happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d41cRqLkCk4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaPdRNgrdig Rampant beatings, shootings and bombings are occurring throughout the city, I can hear reports and explosions from my apartment. Recent videos seem to support the claims of snipers and new photos show riot police with automatic weapons firing at protestors in various cities in Ukraine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8 Why? While the initial outrage was over not taking steps to join the EU, it has since become a demand for the government to step down. Since the "Party of Regions" has been openly and severely corrupt since taking power, and bleeding the country for millions of dollars. Where? While most of the action is in the center of Kiev, the other regions are also protesting, resulting in the capture/destruction of government offices in other cities. Ukraine has a cultural divide between east and west, with the West being much closer to Europe and the East with Russia. This divide can be seen in terms of language, culture, and political leanings. Important terms: Berkut - the Ukrainian "riot" police. Titushki - Hired street thugs from gyms and local MMA/Fighting arenas given free license to threaten/intimidate/beat protestors. Reports of armed gangs killing and looting are becoming more common now. "Zek" Russian for convict, this term is usually applied to Yanakovich, as he spent time in prison in his youth. "Slava Ukraiena!" - Ukrainian for, "Glory to Ukraine" The response to this is: "Heroium Slava!" - Glory to the Heros "Slava Natsia!" - Glory to the Nation the response to this chant is: "Smert voroxam!" - Death to the enemies "Bando Het!" - Bandits get out, "het" is the Ukrainian term for something you would say to an unwanted dog. Keep informed: http://hromadske.tv/ This is a live feed of news from a Ukrainian source The BBC is also a good source, but not as up to date. Ignore her less than stellar English, this video shows in a nut shell whats happening and why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvds2AIiWLA I'm really not sure what else to add here, I don't know what you know and don't know, but I would love to answer any questions. The metro is shutdown, the roads into and out of Kiev are restricted, and work has been cancelled for the foreseeable future, so I should have some free time. Please keep this respectful and earnest and I will gladly answer your questions to the best of my ability. Updates: Videos from Ivano Frankivsk, Lviv, and Lutsk: http://dyvys.info/polityka/ivano-fr...oryt-video.html http://dyvys.info/polityka/u-lvovi-...tuna-video.html http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/02/19/7014697/ Call to end violence in Kiev from Parliament: http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1392931917 EU sanctions: http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1392924554 Peace in the streets, and the energy here is amazing! This video was made before the unfortunate events of the 18th, but it is really powerful and moving. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNq7hWpQ2KY This video was also made prior to the 18th, but has a "happy" vibe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B5AXBFeRLM Yanakovich's house, thanks jimma http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ize-Monaco.html Seems there is rumor that Maidan is fueled by anti-semites. Here is an article debunking such claims: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/26/bernard-henri-levy-ukraine-s-revolutionaries-are-not-fascists.html UPDATES: Seems Russia has declared war on Ukraine. They have allowed the movement of troops into Ukraine and are doing so with impunity. Here is the former president of Georgia talking about the similarities to the Georgian invasion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79g5NeurQBk Russian Choppers moving into Ukraine: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=287_1393605865 Things are soon to get much much worse here. This website dispels a lot of myths about what they're being told in Russia http://fakecontrol.org/ Another thing worth reading for you guys is a letter in the style of "A Modest Proposal" http://nest-expressed.com/open-letter-to-putin-from-a-concerned-ukrainian/ March 18th: According to the BBC: A Ukrainian soldier has been killed in an attack on a military base in Crimean capital #Simferopol, the defence ministry says. The BBC's Ben Brown, who's at the scene, says Russian troops are pushing press back and bursts of automatic fire can be heard. Tankus fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Mar 18, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 12:18
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Is you protestor?
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Feb 20, 2014 12:44
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utjkju posted:Is you protestor? eta ne vajno. I'm just an observer.
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Feb 20, 2014 14:41
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Is the current turn of events surprising for you? Why is corruption brought up as an excuse for rioting, whereas it was the change of course away from EU that triggered the protests? Can you in your mind honestly call the protests peaceful, with all the rock and molotov throwing going on for months? If Yanukovich were to go away, and the guy/girl replacing him turned out to be an even bigger rear end in a top hat (but supported by the West), do you think the same tactics would work to oust him? (I'm looking at Georgia, where it took 30k protestors to put Saakashvili in power, but later even 100k protestors couldn't budge him)
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Feb 20, 2014 15:03
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How would you describe the political leanings of the protesters? I hear about svoboda (?) and the "right sector , some show fascist/far-right symbols etc. What is your estimate about what percentage are adherents of right-wing extremist ideology? Is it there even a general nationalist/xenophobic consensus amongst protesters ?
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Feb 20, 2014 15:14
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I know that the EU-deal was basically just the trigger for a much longer simmering conflict, but Ukrainians understand that trading with / even joining the EU isn't a direct line to jobs, lollipops and unicorns, right? Did you expect the 'truce' to hold this long, or are you surprised as well?
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Feb 20, 2014 15:14
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pigdog posted:Is the current turn of events surprising for you? Its utterly shocking. For a solid month the protests were peaceful and seemed as though they would fizzle out, that was until Tuesday. Corruption here isnt just a "thing" but its breaking this country. Billions have been embezzled from the people and instead of being spent on roads, hospitals, infrastructure, education, modernization, agriculture, it is being spent building a new oligarchy. So this isnt just bribery and corruption, but breaking the back of the Ukrainian people and robbing them of a future. I can honestly say the protests were peaceful. They had people heckling and causing a bit of property damage, but no one was hurt. If you went to the center of Maidan (where the revolution started) it was a self ordered and maintained city within a city. If anyone has ever played the game fallout, it was EXACTLY that, plus a concert and motivational speaker. The people dont want a new president, but a new government. To simply replace Yanakovich without a total restructuring of the government, would be wasted effort. Look at the orange revolution in Ukraine (2004). Georgia was different the Rose Revolution was peaceful due to an already extremely frustrated and weakened government. And the following protests never go close to 100k in supporters, and of the probably 7,000 - 20,000 who protested much fewer were willing to die to replace him. Georgia is a different theme all together, and support for Saakashvilli was stronger and the people were less divided than Ukraine.
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Feb 20, 2014 15:14
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anchorpunch posted:How would you describe the political leanings of the protesters? I hear about svoboda (?) and the "right sector , some show fascist/far-right symbols etc. What is your estimate about what percentage are adherents of right-wing extremist ideology? Is it there even a general nationalist/xenophobic consensus amongst protesters ? The protestors here arnet really politically motivated, just fed up, moreover it is impossible to categorize them do to an overall lack of solidarity (in terms of politics). There are the far right who are more prone to violence now that blood has been drawn, and there are senior citizens who just want a better future for their grandchildren. If in any of the videos you see a red and black flag, those people tend to be a bit more radical. Its the flag of Bandera, who lead a group of fighters during WW2 against both the Soviets and the Nazis to free Ukraine. Ukrainians are FAR less xenophobic than other CIS countries, but they are extremely patriotic, especially those from the west. Junior G-man posted:I know that the EU-deal was basically just the trigger for a much longer simmering conflict, but Ukrainians understand that trading with / even joining the EU isn't a direct line to jobs, lollipops and unicorns, right? They knew, and now it has nothing to do with the EU. But at the time they knew would lead to hardship and a decade of rebuilding to meet EU standards, and most educated people knew that. In terms of the truce i was shocked. I thought they would hold out until the weekend since there is a bit of an ebb and flow. But the metro is still shut down, they have closed roads into Kiev, closing gas stations, and using thugs to keep people in their homes and suppressed. So, I think they want to hit the protestors while they were still reeling and before international support mounted. Tankus fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 15:23
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I've been watching live streams of what's happening in the main square in Kiev. What is happening in other places? I read that Lviv declared independence... does that mean just the city of Lviv itself or that general region? What about in other parts of the country? Are there any protests in the eastern side? Earwicker fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 16:10
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Do you have faith in Klitschko and the other opposition leaders to bring about the kind of reforms people seem to want?
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Feb 20, 2014 16:14
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Earwicker posted:I've been watching live streams of what's happening in the main square in Kiev. The Lviv region is the most patriotic in the whole of Ukraine. They have stormed government buildings and disposed of the government. This is also happening in other regions of Ukraine, most of them being in the West. Ivana-Frankivsk, and Lutz will probably be next. Junior G-man posted:Do you have faith in Klitschko and the other opposition leaders to bring about the kind of reforms people seem to want? I honestly cant say. I dont think that Klitchko has enough know-how to run the country, but hopefully he is intelligent/honest enough to request the help he would need to reform Ukraine. Thus far he is the most likely to succeed, Yanakovick if the revolution is successful. Also, him having lived in Germany for 7 years (i believe) and already having been famous for years should hopefully play to his favor. Additionally: here are some photos http://imgur.com/a/ayjcS
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Feb 20, 2014 16:20
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Tankus posted:I can honestly say the protests were peaceful. They had people heckling and causing a bit of property damage, but no one was hurt. If you went to the center of Maidan (where the revolution started) it was a self ordered and maintained city within a city. If anyone has ever played the game fallout, it was EXACTLY that, plus a concert and motivational speaker. There were 100k protesters against Saakashvili at one point; it's that he perfected the strategy of containing and letting the protests die of boredom on their own, which Yanukovich seem to have emulated. Your guys went for capturing government buildings on the side though, forcing the government to act, which countered that strategy on a new level. Actual question though, besides internet stuff, what kind of local information sources does the government have/use and which ones the opposition? Who do the local TV and radio stations and news portals support?
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Feb 20, 2014 16:50
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pigdog posted:Throwing rocks and molotov cocktails at the police would decidedly revoke peaceful protester privileges in most circles. Protesters were being abducted and tortured/murdered by the police and their hired thugs before the current rock and molotov cocktail throwing began, it's not like the recent violence happened out of the blue or that Yanukovich was just letting the protestors "die of boredom"
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Feb 20, 2014 16:59
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Earwicker posted:Protesters were being abducted and tortured/murdered by the police and their hired thugs before the current rock and molotov cocktail throwing began, it's not like the recent violence happened out of the blue or that Yanukovich was just letting the protestors "die of boredom"
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Feb 20, 2014 17:04
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That's some marvelous goalpost shifting.
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Feb 20, 2014 17:06
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pigdog posted:With all the respect, the existence of such city within the city, where someone else has the power to decide who goes where and gets to do what, is by itself a challenge to the sovereignty of the government. It speaks volumes of the patience and tolerance of the government to allow such thing to persist -- for months. Perhaps the failure to address that led to blurring of limits of what's okay in a peaceful protest. Throwing rocks and molotov cocktails at the police would decidedly revoke peaceful protester privileges in most circles. I am talking about the time before the protestors started throwing rocks and molotovs, this is a step over the line. Having lived in Georgia during the protests, i would really love to see your your sources stating that 100,000 protesters were in Tbilisi, because I know its far from the truth. In terms of TV a lot of the new outlets are government owned, the one that reports the most "pro-protestor" info is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPXO9HPQnFs Its only in Ukrainian but, you can get the idea. I think that this source also adds a bit of hyperbole to the news, but its closer to the truth. So the media here can be as polarized as anywhere, probably more so
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Feb 20, 2014 17:24
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can you translate a bit of what is being shouted during the brawl happening in parliament right now?
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Feb 20, 2014 17:28
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Earwicker posted:can you translate a bit of what is being shouted during the brawl happening in parliament right now? from the OP: Berkut - the Ukrainian "riot" police. Titushki - Hired street thugs from gyms and local MMA/Fighting arenas given free license to threaten/intimidate/beat protestors. Reports of armed gangs killing and looting are becoming more common now. "Zek" Russian for convict, this term is usually applied to Yanakovich, as he spent time in prison in his youth. "Slava Ukraiena!" - Ukrainian for, "Glory to Ukraine" The response to this is: "Heroium Slava!" - Glory to the Heros "Slava Natsia!" - Glory to the Nation the response to this chant is: "Smert voroxam!" - Death to the enemies "Bando Het!" - Bandits get out, "het" is the Ukrainian term for something you would say to an unwanted dog. Those are the "go-to" phrases. Im running around buying supplies (booze and potatoes) but ill be able to give you guys better info in an hour or two. Edit: oh god, listening to it now, i cant understand anything. Poor audio quality and questionable level of Ukrainian are to blame.
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Feb 20, 2014 17:32
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Earwicker posted:That's some marvelous goalpost shifting. I'm sure it's possible to rationalize the escalation. But who am I to judge. poo poo's too real at the moment. It is what it is. If anyone cares, I draw my comparisons from the Singing Revolution that I witnessed, which in the hindsight was a pretty great accomplishment in the world history. Despite an atmosphere ripe for provocations, the Baltic countries gained independence from USSR without any violence, or territorial division like in Moldova. Which is not to say there weren't deadly provocations, or standoffs by tens of thousands of oppositely minded protesters. Keeping cool and peaceful in the face of attacks and paramilitaries reaped a lot of goodwill dividends in the end, in presenting the case both in Moscow and abroad, and provided internal stability well into the future. For Ukraine today that's kind of useless knowledge, but it's why I'm frustrated with the Ukrainian protestors a bit.
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Feb 20, 2014 17:38
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You said you are not participating, just observing, but you seem to be in favor of a complete restructuring of the government. Is there a particular reason you are not participating? Also, when these kinds of things happen do people just stop going to work or school? Do you have a job, and if so has your work just shut down for the time being?
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Feb 20, 2014 17:51
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pigdog posted:Despite an atmosphere ripe for provocations, the Baltic countries gained independence from USSR without any violence, or territorial division like in Moldova. From the very article you linked quote:The Soviet military responded harshly. On January 13, 1991, fourteen non-violent protesters in Vilnius died and hundreds were injured defending the Vilnius Television Tower and the Parliament from Soviet assault troops and tanks. Lithuanians referred to the event as Bloody Sunday. The discipline and courage of its citizens - linking arms and singing in the face of tanks and armour-piercing bullets - avoided a much greater loss of life and showed the world that Lithuania's citizens were prepared to defend national independence.[citation needed]
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Feb 20, 2014 18:06
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I think he means violence from the rebels' side.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:10
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Remaining non-violent in the face of a force who is murdering you may be admirable and give some sense of "moral high ground" I guess but it seems ridiculous to me to demand it of anyone other than oneself. Since protesters were already being murdered before the current violence in the streets began I think it's understandable that they are no longer going the pacifist route.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:13
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I considered mentioning that but I figured it would be the unpopular opinion. Nevertheless, I think you are right; there is nothing inherently better about a non-violent revolution.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:23
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Namarrgon posted:I think he means violence from the rebels' side.  - Mom, I was in the city center and saw a Russian soldier get nailed in the head with half a brick!! - Oh my god what the christ - Yeah they were filming a movie and the brick was made of sponge, lolThrowing stones at soldiers would have been a provocation which a collective effort managed to avoid, so a US company making a film about the events had to make some poo poo up to make it dramatic. Oh well back to Ukraine. 
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Feb 20, 2014 18:28
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Tequila Sunrise posted:You said you are not participating, just observing, but you seem to be in favor of a complete restructuring of the government. Is there a particular reason you are not participating? I help by bringing material and foodstuffs to the lines, but i haven't since tuesday, and don't know when I will again. Im not participating because Im not Ukrainian and friends/coworkers have urged me not to go to the center. Non-vital functions have stopped. Schools and universities have closed and rich businessmen and politicians have been fleeing en masse. A university dormitory was sieged by "titushki" earlier and there are reports of them burning schools. A lot of Ukraine's income comes from IT and tech, so they can continue from home in most cases. I just came back from the store and it looks like its been ransacked. I think tomorrow the metro will be working again, which will help a lot with a return to normalcy but people are quite shaken. Personally, I work with several companies here, and all of them have gone on hiatus.
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Feb 20, 2014 20:32
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Earwicker posted:Remaining non-violent in the face of a force who is murdering you may be admirable and give some sense of "moral high ground" I guess but it seems ridiculous to me to demand it of anyone other than oneself. Since protesters were already being murdered before the current violence in the streets began I think it's understandable that they are no longer going the pacifist route. This is true and then some. When i went into Maidan before the 18th, they keep things very civil. Anyone causing trouble or advocating aggression was removed and internal "police" forces patrolled the occupied area. Alcohol was even forbidden.
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Feb 20, 2014 20:34
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Oh hey there, just saw this thread, thought I'd share what I posted in the D&D one: Just off a call with mom [who flew there today] and the family in Kiev. Unsurprisingly the plane in was half empty, and the airport was also way below typical capacity. However other than that, the way from Boryspil to the center of Kiev was completely uneventful except for the usual traffic jams. Not much more information so far, but when I say center, it's pretty "center":  That's 10-15 minutes on foot to Maidan. Everything's relatively peaceful and quiet there, no roving gangs of fascists or anything like that. So unless you're really craving for a Big Mac from Ukraine's first Mickey D's on Khreshchatyk, it's still reasonably safe.
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Feb 20, 2014 21:14
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So where have protestors been getting guns from? I mean I know there is a ton of old surplus floating around the Ukraine, but I'm wondering if its new stuff people are getting or just things hidden that people have kept around for a long time.
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Feb 21, 2014 05:25
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gfanikf posted:So where have protestors been getting guns from? I mean I know there is a ton of old surplus floating around the Ukraine, but I'm wondering if its new stuff people are getting or just things hidden that people have kept around for a long time. well they are probably just using the ones that were being used to prop up windows or as paperweights
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Feb 21, 2014 05:27
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pigdog posted:So there was an opportunity to demonstrate clear moral superiority by remaining civilized regardless, which was sadly wasted. Agreed, successful protest is basically all about letting the opponents reach their kill limit so they experience a buffer overflow error.
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Feb 21, 2014 05:34
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Fallom posted:Agreed, successful protest is basically all about letting the opponents reach their kill limit so they experience a buffer overflow error. Or burying them alive in the corpses of your side.
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Feb 21, 2014 05:38
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Hey OP I don't really have anything to add beyond thanks for posting and hoping y'all stay safe
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Feb 21, 2014 06:00
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Snowdens Secret posted:Hey OP I don't really have anything to add beyond thanks for posting and hoping y'all stay safe Same here, thanks for the inside look. Stay safe man.
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Feb 21, 2014 06:41
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Fallom posted:Agreed, successful protest is basically all about letting the opponents reach their kill limit so they experience a buffer overflow error. - Policeman Ivanov, you're accused of shooting protester Sidorov in the head at the night of 18th of February. What sayeth thou? - He was throwing Molotov cocktails and other deadly weapons at me while I was legally in the line of duty, the dude left of me had been shot in the neck and the guy right of me received third degree burns from molotov. My head was ringing from a cobblestone hit and thus I could have possibly missed. I claim self defense and regulations which say deadly force is authorized in case of attacks on the person of a policeman on duty, paragraph blah blah blah. - True, but... You're an rear end in a top hat. We're gonna jail you anyway. Oh wait, we're now supposed to be a democratic country so we can't.  Another the thing about violence is that it's never works in the confines of the limits that were intended. You think it's a good idea to throw rocks, some other guy thinks it's even better idea to throw a grenade. It doesn't end with the bossfight either, the protesters will have to live and keep on living with titushki and Regions Party supporters beside them. Time will tell how Ukraine will recover from this as a society. pigdog fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 08:14
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pigdog posted:Well, I can imagine them going after Berkut members when this is over: Some people in Ukraine and Russia confuse democracy with anarchy
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Feb 21, 2014 08:26
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pigdog posted:Well, I can imagine them going after Berkut members when this is over: You are right, they would have been better off if they sat there and died, now they can't prosecute people according to you. Why would prosecuting these people in some imaginary trial even be a priority when they are busy just trying to stay alive?
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Feb 21, 2014 08:27
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Richard Bong posted:You are right, they would have been better off if they sat there and died, now they can't prosecute people according to you. Why would prosecuting these people in some imaginary trial even be a priority when they are busy just trying to stay alive? Bottom line is, resorting to violence starts a clusterfuck that doesn't just end with the protests either.
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Feb 21, 2014 08:37
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pigdog posted:Who's "they" in this sentence because it could just as well apply to either side? If we're talking about people who were forced to come out there and "stay alive", then that kinda describes the police force better. I was obviously talking about the protestors. Are you trying to imply that the police are not allowed to quit their jobs? They aren't conscripts with a political officer behind them ready to shoot deserters. Violence should never be the first choice, but you absolutely have a right to defend yourself.
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Feb 21, 2014 09:03
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Police were just following orders man.
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Feb 21, 2014 09:30
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