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Soo how about this guy (RT link because it's one of the few in English) http://rt.com/news/ukraine-radical-attacks-prosecutor-080/ The problem isn't that anybody believes everybody at Maidan agrees with this guy. It is a problem that he gets to do what he does. Either Ukraine ends up being the kind of country this guy is okay with -- which is hella scary and ostensibly not what most of the protesters were fighting for -- or somebody has to grow the balls to "betray the heroes of Maidan" and "sell out their sacrifice to Russians". Are there such people in power, and do they have the balls to do it? I really don't know. vvv You can't just handwave things away just because it doesn't fit your particular simplified mental model of the events. RT goes into more detail than say The Telegraph but doesn't void the self-explanatory videos. pigdog fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Feb 27, 2014 |
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Feb 27, 2014 22:27
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Not to be a D&D-style pedant, but you can be a fascist and not be an anti-Semite, and you can certainly be an anti-Semite and not be fascist. Similarly while fascism generally includes a strong nationalist bent, you can be a nationalist and not be a fascist at all. Articles like that Daily Beast one that use the terms interchangeably just come off as confused. If there has been one distinctively fascist characteristic present during this period, it's the use of organized un-uniformed brute squads to silence dissenters, and that does not appear to be coming from Maidan side. Russia Today's reporting on Ukraine has been been very trustworthy, to say the least.
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Feb 27, 2014 22:47
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Snowdens Secret posted:Not to be a D&D-style pedant, but you can be a fascist and not be an anti-Semite, and you can certainly be an anti-Semite and not be fascist. Similarly while fascism generally includes a strong nationalist bent, you can be a nationalist and not be a fascist at all. Articles like that Daily Beast one that use the terms interchangeably just come off as confused. The article, and the purpose for my posting it, was to directly address claims of antisemitism. While there have been some groups of idiots wih various agendas, i have never heard a single word of anti-semitism. Also, when the term fascist is used in this part of the world outside of academic circles it almost exclusively refers to Nazi Germany. Which i know is far from the most accurate usage
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Feb 27, 2014 23:17
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Earwicker posted:you are right that the dude wrote a bunch of nazi poo poo on his motorcycle helmet, but that's definitely a motorcycle helmet, you can even see the visor tilted up and it looks nothing at all like an SS helmet None of the protestors saw fit to beat up the nazis, yet were fine using violence against others...
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Feb 28, 2014 00:41
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believe it or not most people dont like beating the poo poo out of other people. Also the media frowns on mob violence regardless of its victims.
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Feb 28, 2014 00:48
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Agean90 posted:believe it or not most people dont like beating the poo poo out of other people. But they were willing to use violence. Besides, violence isn't the only way they could have challenged nazis and shown they were not welcome... if they really didn't welcome their presence, that is. Looks like they were just hanging out with everyone else, though. Nazi Punks gently caress Off
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Feb 28, 2014 03:49
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Instead of talking about a hate spewing ultra-nationalist minority and the absolutely non-existent Nazi presence in Kiev, how about we talk about things that actually matter. Hot topics in Ukraine: The fact that the Ukrainian economy is against the ropes and is in dire need of assistance. Banks are defaulting and foreign currency, namely dollars and euros, are sky rocking in price while the grivna plummets. Some banks are only allowing withdrawals of 100 grn per day. Economics has never been a super strong point for me, but with Russia freezing bailouts to Ukraine Im curious as to if the Eu will help out, possibly once the region is a bit more stabilized. If any of you guys have any insight I would love to hear it. Continued unrest in the Crimea. The Russian media is really playing this up as they would love to have this chunk of land back. I don't live in this area but from reports it seems to be calm for the most part. Anyone have any more primary information from the area? Russian Black Sea fleet movement around The Crimea. US and EU warnings to Russia about not intervening What will Putin do in the coming weeks to sway Ukraine to his favor? There are many other, much more important things happening here that affect people to a much higher degree than some dude in a motorcycle helmet which most Ukrainians would have no idea what it means, so please drop it.
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Feb 28, 2014 08:57
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I know that Crimea is important to Russia because it gives them access to the Black Sea, how big of a factor do you think that is? They obviously have other naval access points, and Crimea is only like the 4th largest, but do you think that Russia could see it as a military threat if losing it became a real possibility?
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Feb 28, 2014 09:29
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Tequila Sunrise posted:I know that Crimea is important to Russia because it gives them access to the Black Sea, how big of a factor do you think that is? They obviously have other naval access points, and Crimea is only like the 4th largest, but do you think that Russia could see it as a military threat if losing it became a real possibility? Well the Crimean was given to the Ukrainian SSR in the 50s. I really cant see any turn of events that would result in Russia losing influence over the Crimea. The black sea fleet is station in Sevastopol which is now a city really championing secession. Russia has always kicked itself for handing over the Crimea and would love the chance to have it back. So the influence, history, and military presence there, not to mention that the vast majority of people in the Crimea are ethnically Russian, means that Ukraine losing the Crimea is much more likely than Russia losing its bases there.
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Feb 28, 2014 09:45
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What's the general sentiment in Kiev, amongst the protesters, about the possibility of Crimean secession?
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Feb 28, 2014 10:00
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Morning Bell posted:What's the general sentiment in Kiev, amongst the protesters, about the possibility of Crimean secession? I'm going to ask around a bit more because I would also like to know. But it seems like people feel like it is the meddling of Russia and they're a bit pissed that they have no patriotism for Ukraine. Ukrainian control in the area is already weak, hopefully the forming government in Kiev extends an offering to them in order to calm things down a bit. The protestors are a bit "how loving dare they!" that they want to succeed, but its not too much different from Lviv threatening the same thing a few weeks ago. As long as violence is avoiding I think things will smooth over there. Hopefully.
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Feb 28, 2014 10:08
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Tankus posted:IThe fact that the Ukrainian economy is against the ropes and is in dire need of assistance. Banks are defaulting and foreign currency, namely dollars and euros, are sky rocking in price while the grivna plummets. Some banks are only allowing withdrawals of 100 grn per day. Economics has never been a super strong point for me, but with Russia freezing bailouts to Ukraine Im curious as to if the Eu will help out, possibly once the region is a bit more stabilized. If any of you guys have any insight I would love to hear it. The dirty secret is that the Euros and US don't really have the money lying around. US offered 1B$ so far which would last Ukraine less than two weeks. Unfortunately over the last few years a lot of other countries have already come by with the donation cup, Ukraine suffers from being far back in line. The Russian ruble is also taking a heavy beating and some say it's the ruble nosedive that's keeping Russia from further action.
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Feb 28, 2014 10:23
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Tankus posted:The fact that the Ukrainian economy is against the ropes and is in dire need of assistance. Banks are defaulting and foreign currency, namely dollars and euros, are sky rocking in price while the grivna plummets. Some banks are only allowing withdrawals of 100 grn per day. Economics has never been a super strong point for me, but with Russia freezing bailouts to Ukraine Im curious as to if the Eu will help out, possibly once the region is a bit more stabilized. If any of you guys have any insight I would love to hear it. Yikes, the Ukraine needs some serious help. From the looks of things they have been reliant on IMF loans since 2008 and refused to sign the renewed treaty in November, 2013 for what I would say is a good reason - 40% increase in gas prices and budget cuts. Then all this revolution stuff began in the Ukraine and it probably wouldn't have been a good idea to accept those terms regardless. Russia offered a lifeline of $15 billion or so, which was what they wanted from the IMF and it kept you guys solvent. $1 billion from the US appears to be just a part of a coming assistance package from the west. The IMF will probably provide most of the funding from any aid package, and if the US and EU lean on the IMF* they could probably get better terms for the new government. *I'm not a conspiracy theorist or anything, but the EU and US provide most of the funding for the IMF so I would imagine they would use it as the instrument of providing a unified aid package. Snowdens Secret posted:The dirty secret is that the Euros and US don't really have the money lying around. That isn't true, the US could easily give away far more than the Russians and not even as a loan or loan guarantee. I think $1 billion is just easy to get through congress if it even needs to.
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Feb 28, 2014 11:43
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quote:the US could easily give away far more than the Russians and not even as a loan or loan guarantee. I think $1 billion is just easy to get through congress if it even needs to. 'Could' meaning 'has the resources' or could meaning 'physically possible?' Because its a midterm election year in the U.S. and Congress is up, and the Republicans (which control the House, which controls the purse strings) aren't going to give anyone jack poo poo if they can possibly avoid it (except of course the military whether they want it or not) so they can come across as 'fiscally responsible/conservative/loving Obama' to the voters back home. They just killed a bill to expand financial help to veterans and their dependents by attaching Iranian sanctions to it because gently caress peace/Obama/muslims. Ukraine will be lucky to get anything this year, especially with the Republicans in the house extolling the virtues of a 'strong' Putin and wondering why Obama can't be a fascist.
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Feb 28, 2014 16:55
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Oracle posted:'Could' meaning 'has the resources' or could meaning 'physically possible?' Because its a midterm election year in the U.S. and Congress is up, and the Republicans (which control the House, which controls the purse strings) aren't going to give anyone jack poo poo if they can possibly avoid it (except of course the military whether they want it or not) so they can come across as 'fiscally responsible/conservative/loving Obama' to the voters back home. Republicans only worry about being "fiscally reponsible/conservative" when it comes to social services, welfare, health, or arts and culture. Much of their base is still stuck in the Cold War and so they more than happy to spend money on anything that will piss off the Russians. It's why Mitt Romney seemingly-randomly called out Russia as the US's "number one foe" during the 2012 campaigns. Helping out a "fledgling democracy" that we can bring under the NATO fold and take away what has long been considered a Russian "possession" would actually sound good to a lot of Republican voters. the fact that the Ukrainian opposition has been frequently framed as "far right" will also help. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Feb 28, 2014 |
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Feb 28, 2014 17:55
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Tankus posted:The fact that the Ukrainian economy is against the ropes and is in dire need of assistance. Banks are defaulting and foreign currency, namely dollars and euros, are sky rocking in price while the grivna plummets. Some banks are only allowing withdrawals of 100 grn per day. Economics has never been a super strong point for me, but with Russia freezing bailouts to Ukraine Im curious as to if the Eu will help out, possibly once the region is a bit more stabilized. If any of you guys have any insight I would love to hear it. I think the EU may help out, but not quite yet until things calm down and there's a more sure sign of what the outcome may be. If what I read is true (about airports being seized) then I'd think it's a bit too hot at the moment and they wouldn't want to throw good money after bad. It's not like the EU is in great shape either. The real shame is the people facing the brunt of it all, as always - very disheartening.
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Feb 28, 2014 18:27
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Oracle posted:'Could' meaning 'has the resources' or could meaning 'physically possible?' Because its a midterm election year in the U.S. and Congress is up, and the Republicans (which control the House, which controls the purse strings) aren't going to give anyone jack poo poo if they can possibly avoid it (except of course the military whether they want it or not) so they can come across as 'fiscally responsible/conservative/loving Obama' to the voters back home. They just killed a bill to expand financial help to veterans and their dependents by attaching Iranian sanctions to it because gently caress peace/Obama/muslims. Ukraine will be lucky to get anything this year, especially with the Republicans in the house extolling the virtues of a 'strong' Putin and wondering why Obama can't be a fascist. I think a bailout of Ukraine would be extremely easy to pass through Congress. Dislike of Putin and Russia is pretty strong (from my observations), so it need only be pitched as "let's gently caress with Putin" and "Remember the invasion of Georgia" and "Putin is propping up Syria" and any amount asked would be provided. The Republicans I know loathe Putin and still call the country "Soviet Union", it is as if the Cold War never ended for them. The Iranian sanctions are mostly pushed by AIPAC/Israel.
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Feb 28, 2014 18:37
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So, unmarked APCs, helicopters and infantry have just invaded Ukraine and taken control of a major airport in Crimea. I haven't read the whole article as I'm at work but this is the gist of it (I think; I read this on a forum news board and just glanced at the summary - that might have been in another article) Gee, I wonder who that could be. http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26379722 E: Yep, this is the correct article. I bet this is either Crimean militia or some obscure Russian special ops thing. Noctis Horrendae fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Feb 28, 2014 |
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Feb 28, 2014 21:29
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Yep, looks like Russia "securing" the area but really trying to provoke a military response so they can annex the peninsula. Tankus, what's the people's reaction to this? Surely even the Russian-speaking ones (like myself...) wouldn't want parts of the country stolen?
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Feb 28, 2014 22:35
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http://www.rferl.mobi/a/russia-considers-adding-regions/25280068.html Oh look, they conveniently announced this the day unmarked mysterious forces invade a neighbouring peninsula. Gee, now I REALLY wonder who those marines are.
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Mar 1, 2014 01:08
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Noctis Horrendae posted:http://www.rferl.mobi/a/russia-considers-adding-regions/25280068.html Spanish.
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Mar 1, 2014 01:34
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Lord Windy posted:Spanish. Finally recovered from losing the Armada, and are making another go at it.
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Mar 1, 2014 01:55
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10668357/Russia-admits-that-it-has-moved-troops-in-Ukraine.html Here we go! They went from outright denying it hours ago to admitting it now. Oh, Russia. I can't wait to see the impending diplomatic clusterfuck - any guesses on what the U.S. will say about this? E: IIRC marching into foreign territory with unmarked troops directly violates the Geneva Convention, can anyone confirm this? I'm way too excited about this - I really want to see Russia get stomped. Noctis Horrendae fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Mar 1, 2014 |
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Mar 1, 2014 01:58
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Noctis Horrendae posted:E: IIRC marching into foreign territory with unmarked troops directly violates the Geneva Convention, can anyone confirm this? I'm almost positive that the Geneva Conventions and their amendments are just to do with the treatment of captured, wounded or stranded soldiers and civilians. I'm sure there are some international agreements that regulate that, but not those ones.
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Mar 1, 2014 02:32
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Noctis Horrendae posted:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10668357/Russia-admits-that-it-has-moved-troops-in-Ukraine.html Lord Windy posted:I'm almost positive that the Geneva Conventions and their amendments are just to do with the treatment of captured, wounded or stranded soldiers and civilians. I'm sure there are some international agreements that regulate that, but not those ones. It's Hague, not Geneva that says it Annex Section 1, Chapter1, Article 1 posted:The laws, rights, and duties of war apply not only to armies, but also to militia and volunteer corps, fulfilling the following conditions: And I believe Hague and/or Geneva go on to say that combatants not wearing distinctive uniform are not entitled to POW status. Which is why you hear stories about secret agents jumping into enemy territory in their uniform before ditching it and going into hiding.
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Mar 1, 2014 04:21
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Tequila Sunrise posted:I know that Crimea is important to Russia because it gives them access to the Black Sea, how big of a factor do you think that is? They obviously have other naval access points, and Crimea is only like the 4th largest, but do you think that Russia could see it as a military threat if losing it became a real possibility? Nobody in Russia thought that the lease agreement on the Sevastopol base would be renewed. A move to Novorossiysk has been planned for ages now. Sure, staying in Sevastopol brings them a little closer West, but losing it prematurely is not a catastrophe.
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Mar 1, 2014 05:38
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Noctis Horrendae posted:E: IIRC marching into foreign territory with unmarked troops directly violates the Geneva Convention, can anyone confirm this? I'm way too excited about this - I really want to see Russia get stomped. Don't be silly,
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Mar 1, 2014 11:33
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Ensign Expendable posted:Nobody in Russia thought that the lease agreement on the Sevastopol base would be renewed. A move to Novorossiysk has been planned for ages now. Sure, staying in Sevastopol brings them a little closer West, but losing it prematurely is not a catastrophe. It will be a domestic political disaster for Russia if there is any possibility of losing this base under pressure from Ukrainian authorities, many of whom were architects of the initial lease extension deal. Ukraine is asking for 35 billion in aid, and I hardly think that's to pay the Russians back for all the subsidized gas over the years. The Russian military has extensive movement rights both legally and de facto in and around Crimea, but the seizing of airports and the blocking or roads is obviously totally illegal and upping the ante considerably. That said, if the new authorities don't issue clear and believable statements about limits on how far Ukranization will go, no one in Crimea, Karkhov, etc. will be against Russian intervention. Tankus posted:The article, and the purpose for my posting it, was to directly address claims of antisemitism. While there have been some groups of idiots wih various agendas, i have never heard a single word of anti-semitism. I'm not trying to start any kind of flamewar, but Svaboda is an on-the-record anti-semitic party and they've grabbed a few important posts in the new cabinet. I agree that there was and is not any anti-semitic current of the Maidan protests, but there is a power vacuum now, and well-organized extremist parties are filling some of it. So no, there is no anti-semitism in the mainstream, but there is also no anti-anti-semitism. In general, it seems like the belief in a jewish conspiracy or that jews are actually foreigners is regarded as a political quirk and not as a flat-out unacceptable attitude. My experience comes from living in Odessa for a few years and most of my friends there now feel very betrayed and worried by the recent turns of events, as both Russian speakers and as Jews. No one there had much regard for Yanokovitch, but literally the first thing the new Rada did was to repeal the minority language protection law that allowed 90% Russian areas to use Russian. It would be a real shame if the new authorities get so hung up on making Russians watch The Hobbit dubbed exclusively in Ukrainian that they throw away the potential support of at least 15 million Russians who are uneasy about Putin but don't want to be treated like outsiders in their own country. Smerdyakov fucked around with this message at 11:49 on Mar 1, 2014 |
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Mar 1, 2014 11:45
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Ensign Expendable posted:Nobody in Russia thought that the lease agreement on the Sevastopol base would be renewed. A move to Novorossiysk has been planned for ages now. Sure, staying in Sevastopol brings them a little closer West, but losing it prematurely is not a catastrophe. Could the Novorossiysk base accommodate the Russian Black Sea Fleet right this moment?
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Mar 1, 2014 11:54
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Seems like Russians are trying to provoke some sort of response to justify their expansion into Ukraine. Ukraine has already called on a treaty signed in 1994 when they surrendered their nuclear stockpile in exchange for international protection. People in Kiev are a bit on edge about the situation but no one seems to be pissed, just nervous. Hopefully no one will play the fool and start something with the Russians. I imagine if after enough time the Russians will run out of excuses to be in The Crimea and pullout, but odds are they're going to do absolutely everything they can to annex Crimea. And, Smerdyakov, I agree that the law about forcing Ukrainian on the populace is silly. I understand the desire to want to assert yourself culturally, but there are a lot of people in Ukraine who speak Russian nearly exclusively in Ukraine, I personally would feel discriminated against if I were one of them, even if i was opposed to russian politics. Tankus fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Mar 1, 2014 |
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Mar 1, 2014 12:45
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Honestly I don't think Ukraine is going to survive much longer on its own with this new government. Judging by recent news Russia wants it back anyway, or at least Crimea. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
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Mar 1, 2014 15:34
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If Russia is meaning to provoke Ukraine into something, they're doing it really well. Russian parliament authorized the use of military force in Ukraine. Is there something in internal Ukranian politics I'm not getting or the media is not reporting? This seems like a really good way to permanently drive Ukraine away from the Russian sphere of influence. I've had the picture that the pro-Russia part of the population of Ukraine is not large enough so that a temporary invasion of Crimea wouldn't have a serious backlash.
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Mar 1, 2014 16:49
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The authorization for use of force isn't for Crimea, it's for all of Ukraine. I think this thread's heading to "hey OP, stay safe" territory soon.
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Mar 1, 2014 17:00
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The situation here is just absolutely hosed. I am totally shocked. The reports coming in from the Crimea are also grim. Denying entry to the Crimea to Ukrainian citizens, comandeering journalists equipment. Troop placement and helicopters coming in. Tanks rolling into Ukraine. Now Russia has declaired open season on Ukraine. The rest of the world just sits on its hands "tut-tut-tutting" The people here are disgusted and confused. I for one find it frightening that we live in a time where Europe would let this happen on its doorstep. Russian choppers: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=287_1393605865 Former Georgian president talking about the Ukrainian invasion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79g5NeurQBk Tankus fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Mar 1, 2014 |
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Mar 1, 2014 17:32
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Tankus posted:The situation here is just absolutely hosed. I am totally shocked. The reports coming in from the Crimea are also grim. Denying entry to the Crimea to Ukrainian citizens, comandeering journalists equipment. Troop placement and helicopters coming in. Tanks rolling into Ukraine. Now Russia has declaired open season on Ukraine. The rest of the world just sits on its hands "tut-tut-tutting" The people here are disgusted and confused. I for one find it frightening that we live in a time where Europe would let this happen on its doorstep. poo poo, reading CNN had made it seem like Russia was making a play, but since I hadn't heard anything from you that it was just a bit of sensationalism. In your opinion, what kind of response would you like from the EU (and the rest of the world)?
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Mar 1, 2014 18:12
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Tankus posted:The situation here is just absolutely hosed. I am totally shocked. The reports coming in from the Crimea are also grim. Denying entry to the Crimea to Ukrainian citizens, comandeering journalists equipment. Troop placement and helicopters coming in. Tanks rolling into Ukraine. Now Russia has declaired open season on Ukraine. The rest of the world just sits on its hands "tut-tut-tutting" The people here are disgusted and confused. I for one find it frightening that we live in a time where Europe would let this happen on its doorstep.
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Mar 1, 2014 18:21
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The Russian press has no shortage of motivations with which to justify 'stabilization', and if push doesn't come to shove they can always stage some street theater.
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Mar 1, 2014 18:28
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Snowdens Secret posted:The Russian press has no shortage of motivations with which to justify 'stabilization', and if push doesn't come to shove they can always stage some street theater. A super power does as it pleases, generally. They can be really transparent in faking a reason for a number of things as long as they can be sure they can get away with it.
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Mar 1, 2014 19:39
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Didn't the Russians carve off a fair sized piece of Georgia a while back? If I recall correctly there was much banging on tables and rending of garments at the UN that the Russians simply ignored at that time as well.
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Mar 1, 2014 20:30
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So the gist of it is: Russian nationalists on the Krim (and maybe even eastern Ukraine) will enforce a referendum to join up with the motherland and the Russian army is only there to provide "security" around the voting-booths and ensure everything goes according to And yeah, sorry for Godwin 
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Mar 2, 2014 11:23
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