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Tankus posted:I am talking about the time before the protestors started throwing rocks and molotovs, this is a step over the line. Having lived in Georgia during the protests, Hey I remember your posts on Georgia! How do you manage to be wherever Russia invades at the time!
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Mar 2, 2014 13:52
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Russia does not care about Georgia or the Ukraine, they are after you!
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Mar 2, 2014 13:59
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quote:How do you manage to be wherever Russia invades at the time! Makes you think.
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Mar 3, 2014 08:00
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mobby_6kl posted:Yep, looks like Russia "securing" the area but really trying to provoke a military response so they can annex the peninsula. Tankus, what's the people's reaction to this? Surely even the Russian-speaking ones (like myself...) wouldn't want parts of the country stolen? From a news report, it seemed like a lot of people actually supported it due to being "historically" Russian. It was a news report though and is likely to be selective in it's presentation
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Mar 3, 2014 11:34
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AlphaNiner posted:From a news report, it seemed like a lot of people actually supported it due to being "historically" Russian. It was a news report though and is likely to be selective in it's presentation A huge number of people in Crimea supports this, and obviously anyone who feels otherwise is keeping quiet right about now. Also, there's no reason to put "historically" in quotations--it was officially part of the Russian SSR until 1954, and the population there is 80% ethnic Russian. You can't see much of them in the western press, but there have been huge rallies in favor of Putin, defections in the Ukrainian army and navy, etc. The question is if Crimea has a right to break away just because they want to--and is it even possible for Crimea to agree to rejoining Ukraine in any form now that the genie is out of bottle and the Russian Federation is there in force? Anyone with any sense knows that the new government in Kiev made a huge mistake by immediately repealing the minority languages law and giving Svoboda cabinet posts, but they're gambling that the western press won't understand what either of those things mean in the domestic political arena. Basically, both sides have a vested interest in hardening their rhetoric rather than trying to find an acceptable middle ground, which is why there's now a very real possibility of something as insanely stupid as war happening. Smerdyakov fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Mar 3, 2014 |
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Mar 3, 2014 12:08
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Western TV news is garbage but the internet sites are better, especially if you use the live feeds. Take anything especially important-sounding with caution until it is confirmed by multiple sources. I've been reading BBC's feed but they're all pulling from the same wire services, Twitter feeds etc. I've also been using interpretermag.com as they include and translate the Russian side of things. They're a bit quicker to get new news if you're an F5 junkie. No news source is 100% objective, but as long as you recognize the biases and try to balance your sources, the harm is minimized.
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Mar 3, 2014 13:17
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Smerdyakov posted:A huge number of people in Crimea supports this, and obviously anyone who feels otherwise is keeping quiet right about now. Also, there's no reason to put "historically" in quotations--it was officially part of the Russian SSR until 1954, and the population there is 80% ethnic Russian. You can't see much of them in the western press, but there have been huge rallies in favor of Putin, defections in the Ukrainian army and navy, etc. Agreed, that was a total misuse of quotations on my part and I was trying to make the point which you made - and failed miserably. Snowdens Secret posted:No news source is 100% objective, but as long as you recognize the biases and try to balance your sources, the harm is minimized. Well said, I was/am trying to keep an open and unbiased view on the basis each of the sources may well indeed have their own.
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Mar 3, 2014 16:46
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Informed Consent posted:That's something I've always been wondering when reading the news. Basically, Putin pretty strongly disliked Yanukovichs imprisoning of her (before, he could play two corrupt Oligarchs against each other, which reduced the overall expenditure for bribery), the west doesnt like Yanukovich either, because he is so hilariously and obviously corrupt it literally suprises Russian Oligarchs, and thats quite a mean feat. When the KPU joined party of regions, are sizeable part of the KPU split off, because they couldnt stand Yanuk either. Basically, Yanuk got zero friends, other than some Oligarchs for whom he was good buisness. The problem is, the protests got highjacked by the far right (that beat the crap out of the KPU-Split when said split off wanted to join the Maidan, and burned down tents by Trade Unions), which then went out of their way to antogonize the Russophone parts into fearing "New Kiev" more than loathing Yanukovich. The international problem is that the Opposition broke the "Yanuk stands down deal" by storming his residency, which basically means turned them "untrustworthy" it was also a dumb decision, pretty minor short term gains vs. long term losses. The by far most likely outcome right now is that "Yulia Cersei Timoshenko" (Timoschenko of course is far more ruthless, capable and corrupt than Cersei Lannister) makes a "courageous deal" that wards of "Khal Putins" Tank hordes, picks some "Eastmen" as Lord Paramount of the East, and then happily screws Ukraines people in a more PR savy way. End of story.
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Mar 6, 2014 20:00
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In the western Ukrain in the government there are people, who are Nazi. And many people in the western Ukrain are Nazi. It is very dangerous for Russian people in Ukrain. In the eastern part of Ukrain there are many Russian people. They know that Nazis of Ukrain are danger. People from Crimea asked for help Russia. And Russia agreed. We help Crimea. Crimea and other eastern parts of Ukrain don't recognize The New government from Kiev is legal. And people from Crimea and people from other eastern pats of Ukrain organize them governments. The New government from Kiev don't recognize New government from Crimea is legal. Also, The New government from Kiev don't recognize governments from other eastern parts of Ukrain are legal( for example: Donetsk). All governments from Ukrain can be legatimate, because The New government from Kiev was organized without impeachment of the old government of Ukrain. And a legally president of Ukrain is Yanukovich. People from Eastern Ukrain organize them armies. If New government from Ukrain will not recognize New governments from Eastern Ukrain are legal, can be war between Western Ukrain and Eastern Ukrain. But many people from Western Ukrain was not glad by events of The New government from Kiev. Because of these events people will be very poor. utjkju fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Mar 7, 2014 |
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Mar 7, 2014 04:04
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utjkju posted:In the western Ukrain in the government there are people, who are Nazi. And many people in the western Ukrain are Nazi. Wow, how did you manage to register just in time to be able to talk about this? And how is Putin, who is literally doing the exact same poo poo Hitler did pre-WWII, any better, just because he won't be targetting Ethnic Russians with his genocidal purges(which Russia has a history of committing already)
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Mar 7, 2014 04:32
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Utjkju registered a month ago and has been posting in a completely different thread all this time. Also I don't recall an overthrow in Czechoslovakia that disenfranchised ethnic Germans.
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Mar 7, 2014 04:40
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RFC2324 posted:Wow, how did you manage to register just in time to be able to talk about this? I register because i learn English. I am Russian. And when I register i did not know about events from Ukrain. I have relatives and friends from Ukraina. I love them. Why do you think that Putin doing the exact same poo poo Hitler did pre-WWII? What are facts?
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Mar 7, 2014 04:45
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Comparing the situation to what Germany did in the 30's doesn't really make sense considering the history of Crimea and Russia. That doesn't mean Putin's invasion is justified and yeah he's certainly an rear end in a top hat but implying that he's going to start some kind of genocidal purge in Ukraine is rather a huge stretch.
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Mar 7, 2014 04:47
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utjkju posted:In the western Ukrain in the government there are people, who are Nazi. And many people in the western Ukrain are Nazi. Did the Crimeans ask for help before the Russian occupation? Also, don't you think it's absurd the Russian government won't admit the occupying forces are Russian? I agree with your last statement, "Because of these events people will be very poor."
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Mar 7, 2014 04:51
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Earwicker posted:Comparing the situation to what Germany did in the 30's doesn't really make sense considering the history of Crimea and Russia. That doesn't mean Putin's invasion is justified and yeah he's certainly an rear end in a top hat but implying that he's going to start some kind of genocidal purge in Ukraine is rather a huge stretch. There was not Putin's invasion.
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Mar 7, 2014 04:53
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Well, land grabs under the excuse of protecting ethic {Germans/Russians}, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Early_diplomatic_successes see the section about, you guessed it, Austria and Czechoslovakia, specifically the Sudetenland. As far as ethnic purges, and Russian history with them, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge this is a good place to start. You combine that with a basic racism that is prevalent in Russia(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Russia) and you can see that it would likely be acceptable to the populace again.
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Mar 7, 2014 04:54
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Rinkles posted:Did the Crimeans ask for help before the Russian occupation? There was not occupation. Yes, Crimeans asked for help Russia, because people from Crimea do not want New government from Kiev. They organized government of Crimea.
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Mar 7, 2014 04:59
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RFC2324 posted:Well, land grabs under the excuse of protecting ethic {Germans/Russians}, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Early_diplomatic_successes see the section about, you guessed it, Austria and Czechoslovakia, specifically the Sudetenland. Pretty much every major nation has ethnic genocide in it's history, this does not mean every action they commit is an imminent genocidal purge. This is the same logic as saying the US intervention in Libya was an attempt to eradicate the population of Berbers and Arabs living there and occupy their land because thats what we did to Native Americans. And yes, the Germans used ethnic Germans in the Sudetenland as an excuse, but once again the situations are not the same. The relationship between the Sudetenland and Germany is not at all the same as the relationship between Crimea and Russia, and the new Ukrainian government really did pass laws that discriminated against ethnic Russians in Ukraine. The Sudetenland was never part of Germany, Crimea was part of Russia for several hundred years up until just a few decades ago, and the only reason it became a part of Ukraine at all was basically because Kruschev was Ukrainian. utjkju posted:There was not occupation. So who are all the thousands of soldiers that surrounded Ukrainian bases? Do you really believe Putin that there was "no invasion" in spite of a rather massive amount of photographic and video evidence of the invasion happening? Earwicker fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Mar 7, 2014 |
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Mar 7, 2014 05:00
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Earwicker posted:Pretty much every major nation has ethnic genocide in it's history, this does not mean every action they commit is an imminent genocidal purge. This is the same logic as saying the US intervention in Libya was an attempt to eradicate the population of Berbers and Arabs living there and occupy their land because thats what we did to Native Americans. The genocide issue is arguable, and I will admit as much. Putin has shown a significant enough amount of hate towards various populations(gays are the first to come to mind) to make me a slight bit worried. And those discriminatory laws against Russian? All those did was establish Ukrainian as the legal language of the land. Getting pissed about that is like being pissed that Spanish is not a legal language in the US. It did not punish Russian speakers, it merely meant that legal documents and the like had to be in the Ukrainian language. The literal exact argument in the US context would be saying that Texas had to do all legal business in Spanish as well as English, since Texas was, at one time, part of Mexico 
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Mar 7, 2014 05:08
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The Russian language ban was vetoed immediately.
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Mar 7, 2014 05:09
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utjkju posted:There was not occupation. Yes, Crimeans asked for help Russia, because people from Crimea do not want New government from Kiev. Are you saying it's not an occupation because there was a plea for help, or are you denying that the troops are Russian (which is what Russia itself is doing)? You do realize the overnight appointing of the new prime minster - a guy from a party with single digit representation in the Crimean Supreme Council - under the watch of occupying Russian soldiers, was a complete sham?
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Mar 7, 2014 05:09
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RFC2324 posted:Well, land grabs under the excuse of protecting ethic {Germans/Russians}, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Early_diplomatic_successes see the section about, you guessed it, Austria and Czechoslovakia, specifically the Sudetenland. In Russia very many ethnical groups have been living many centuries. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Russia) - it is false. In my town live many ethnical groups. And we respect traditions each other.
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Mar 7, 2014 05:10
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utjkju posted:In the western Ukrain in the government there are people, who are Nazi. And many people in the western Ukrain are Nazi. I don't think they are Nazi's. National Socialism, or Nazism is a form of fascism that usually incorporates scientific racism (ie. Jews and Slavs are bad due to some concocted scientific fact) and some kind of pan nationalism. So for example, if Britain was ruled by Nazi's they would likely be trying to reconquer the commonwealth and come up with reasons why Indians and Pakistanis are bad. I wouldn't even call the Ukraine fascists. Be careful with calling people Nazi's and whatnot. utjkju posted:All governments from Ukrain can be legatimate, because The New government from Kiev was organized without impeachment of the old government of Ukrain. And a legally president of Ukrain is Yanukovich. This looks to be the root of the problem I think you are trying to argue. The pro-west side managed to oust a president that was unpopular with the west side of the Ukraine. East side liked this president I assume. The whole situation has just been escalated quite scarily, Russian soldiers occupying Crimea and all the ICBM tests so that is why you will find the west (EU and America mainly) supporting West Ukraine.
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Mar 7, 2014 05:15
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utjkju posted:In Russia very many ethnical groups have been living many centuries. Pretty well cited for being false. I particularly like: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4969296.stm I would almost think you were arguing that there was no racism in the US anymore. At least here hate crimes are a thing that is aggressively prosecuted(if not always successfully)
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Mar 7, 2014 05:16
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RFC2324 posted:The literal exact argument in the US context would be saying that Texas had to do all legal business in Spanish as well as English, since Texas was, at one time, part of Mexico I'm not sure why you find that so absurd - if you replace Texas with New Mexico, that is the case. Because of the history of the state and the fact that the population includes a large number of Spanish speakers, Spanish has official status along with English. If a new government took power and then declared that English was the only official language, you can certainly bet that a lot of people would take that as discrimination against the Spanish speakers- and given the history of language politics in the US they'd probably be right. Also, the reason that areas become part of a country kind of matters. Texas became independent from Mexico in a war. Crimea was given to Ukraine by the Soviet government, because the Soviet premier was himself Ukrainian, and somehow I suspect the people who actually lived in Crimea at the time were not consulted on that. Now, I don't think Russia has any right to just take Crimea. But I do think if the Crimean inhabitants vote to rejoin Russa, then they have a right to do so. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Mar 7, 2014 |
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Mar 7, 2014 05:19
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Earwicker posted:I'm not sure why you find that so absurd - if you replace Texas with New Mexico, that is the case. Because of the history of the state and the fact that the population includes a large number of Spanish speakers, Spanish has official status along with English. If a new government took power and then declared that English was the only official language, you can certainly bet that a lot of people would take that as discrimination against the Spanish speakers- and given the history of language politics in the US they'd probably be right. Having spent half my life in New Mexico, I can assure you that Spanish is not a legal language. Most of the population speaks it, but that doesn't mean legal business is conducted in it, or that street signs are printed in it(that last is kind of arguable, since most of the street names are in fact Spanish words or peoples names). Edit: I stand corrected, slightly. Spanish DOES have a legal status, but it only in that certain legal documents are printed in a special New Mexican form of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mexican_Spanish#Legal_status It has not been legal as such since 1949 however. RFC2324 fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Mar 7, 2014 |
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Mar 7, 2014 05:22
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RFC2324 posted:Having spent half my life in New Mexico, I can assure you that Spanish is not a legal language. Most of the population speaks it, but that doesn't mean legal business is conducted in it, or that street signs are printed in it(that last is kind of arguable, since most of the street names are in fact Spanish words or peoples names). Yeah, I misrememberd, it's actually Hawaii that has a non-English official language (Hawaiian). However in New Mexico, the language does have some semi-official status including legal use: quote:With regards to the judiciary, witnesses have the right to testify in either of the two languages, and monolingual speakers of Spanish have the same right to be considered for jury-duty as do speakers of English.[51][54] In public education, the state has the constitutional obligation to provide for bilingual education and Spanish-speaking instructors in school districts where the majority of students are hispanophone.[51] Do you think if new legislation were passed by a new government saying that all education and legal testimony had to be in English, this wouldn't be discrimination against Spanish speakers?
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Mar 7, 2014 05:27
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But is there a party currently in power in the US that is pushing for racial purity in government, education, etc? Because Svoboda is (ironically), and boy would that not fly in a modern democracy.
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Mar 7, 2014 05:27
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Ensign Expendable posted:But is there a party currently in power in the US that is pushing for racial purity in government, education, etc? Because Svoboda is (ironically), and boy would that not fly in a modern democracy. Tea Party as far as I can tell. Not openly tho.
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Mar 7, 2014 05:28
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Ensign Expendable posted:But is there a party currently in power in the US that is pushing for racial purity in government, education, etc? Because Svoboda is (ironically), and boy would that not fly in a modern democracy. Not in the US but such parties certainly exist in modern democracies. Jobbik, Front National, etc. In the US people with such agendas exist but are more likely to simply run in one of the two major parties because no other party can be viable in the US.
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Mar 7, 2014 05:30
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Rinkles posted:Did the Crimeans ask for help before the Russian occupation? All time in Crimea there are Russian troops: last year, three years ago... But three years ago you did not tell about an occupation. The new prime minster in Crimea was chosen by people from Crimea. Also, it was in Donetsk too. But the new prime minster in Donetsk was arrested by people from the western Ukrain.
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Mar 7, 2014 05:31
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utjkju posted:All time in Crimea there are Russian troops: last year, three years ago... There's been a Russian base there yes, but there haven't been new loads of Russian soldiers surrounding the Ukrainian bases on the peninsula and shutting down airports, which is what happened last week.
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Mar 7, 2014 05:37
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Earwicker posted:There's been a Russian base there yes, but there haven't been new loads of Russian soldiers surrounding the Ukrainian bases on the peninsula and shutting down airports, which is what happened last week. They were not Russian soldiers, they were soldiers of Crimea (people from Crimea organized army of Crimea). utjkju fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Mar 7, 2014 |
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Mar 7, 2014 05:43
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utjkju, do you think Russians feel the Poles and Lithuanians are trying to influence the West Ukrainian government? Do you think their influence is stronger than Russia's?
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Mar 7, 2014 05:49
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utjkju posted:They were not Russian soldiers, they were soldiers of Crimea (people from Crimea organized army of Crimea). The spontaneously appearing forces of Crimea that happen to be significantly better armed than their Ukrainian counterparts and use Russian inventory.
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Mar 7, 2014 05:50
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utjkju posted:They were not Russian soldiers, they were soldiers of Crimea (people from Crimea organized army of Crimea). Who just happen to be wearing uniforms almost identical to russian uniforms with a patch missing.
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Mar 7, 2014 05:50
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Rinkles posted:The spontaneously appearing forces of Crimea that happen to be significantly better armed than their Ukrainian counterparts and use Russian inventory. I don't know about armament of these people. I know only that my friends from Ukrain told me.
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Mar 7, 2014 05:59
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Snowdens Secret posted:utjkju, do you think Russians feel the Poles and Lithuanians are trying to influence the West Ukrainian government? Do you think their influence is stronger than Russia's? I don't have information about it.
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Mar 7, 2014 06:01
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utjkju posted:I don't know about armament of these people. I know only that my friends from Ukrain told me. Although I think it's ridiculous to have to defend the notion that these are Russian forces, here's a an amateur analysis of some of their equipment. http://imgur.com/a/3DzA0/layout/blog And evidence of Russian paratroopers being involved: kustomkarkommando posted:I did not know this was a thing. I was saving all the high-def press photos I could find over the weekend and glanced through a couple looking for anything out of the ordinary. This one caught my eye: Never mind the absurdity of a well disciplined, excellently equipped Crimean armed force materializing out of thin air. Rinkles fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Mar 7, 2014 |
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Mar 7, 2014 06:25
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utjkju posted:I don't have information about it. Have you read any of the news coming from Al Jazerra, BBC, NY Times, etc? Are you worried the west are being mislead?
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Mar 7, 2014 06:28
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