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Lord Windy posted:Have you read any of the news coming from Al Jazerra, BBC, NY Times, etc? Are you worried the west are being mislead? I think the better question is whether you are worried that YOU are being mislead only following domestic news sources that have to answer to the russian government. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shai-baitel/covering-russia-in-a-time_b_4698207.html
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Mar 7, 2014 06:33
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Rinkles posted:Although I think it's ridiculous to have to defend the notion that these are Russian forces, here's a an amateur analysis of some of their equipment. Military service is mandatory in Russia and the Ukraine. Young men with military training and military tattoos are not hard to come by.
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Mar 7, 2014 06:34
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Rinkles posted:Although I think it's ridiculous to have to defend the notion that these are Russian forces, here's a an amateur analysis of some of their equipment. In Crimea live many people, who work in army. Also, many men of Ukrain and Russia have war education.
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Mar 7, 2014 06:37
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Ensign Expendable posted:Military service is mandatory in Russia and the Ukraine. Young men with military training and military tattoos are not hard to come by. Paratroopers are fairly elite units. But I'm not going to bother spending any more time convincing anyone of these soldiers' allegiance so I'm fine with whatever anyone may believe! Though I'd suggest a bit more critical thinking utjkju.
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Mar 7, 2014 06:41
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Rinkles posted:Paratroopers are fairly elite units. But I'm not going to bother spending any more time convincing anyone of these soldiers' allegiance so I'm fine with whatever anyone may believe! Do you see Day OF ВДВ in Russia and in Ukrain?
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Mar 7, 2014 06:45
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utjkju posted:Do you see Day OF ВДВ in Russia and in Ukrain? I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.
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Mar 7, 2014 06:47
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Lord Windy posted:Have you read any of the news coming from Al Jazerra, BBC, NY Times, etc? Are you worried the west are being mislead? No, i do not read Al Jazerra, BBC, NY Times. No, i am not worried about it, because i do not know about it. 
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Mar 7, 2014 06:49
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Rinkles posted:I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. ВДВ is the paratrooper forces. VDV day is when the former VDV servicemen come out and celebrate. There are hundreds of drunken assholes from VDV swimming in fountains and harassing pedestrians in every city, and those are just the drunken assholes. Plenty of them are available for hire.
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Mar 7, 2014 06:51
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utjkju posted:No, i do not read Al Jazerra, BBC, NY Times. So you just believe everything you are told? I have a bridge in the state of Arizona I would like to sell you. Oceanfront property, only $10000 USD.
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Mar 7, 2014 07:02
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RFC2324 posted:So you just believe everything you are told? I believe my friends from Ukraina. I think, i don't have reasons that i will not believe my friends. RFC2324 posted:I have a bridge in the state of Arizona I would like to sell you. Oceanfront property, only $10000 USD.
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Mar 7, 2014 07:09
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utjkju posted:No, i do not read Al Jazerra, BBC, NY Times. I ask because they contradict what you are saying and they all come from different sources, including one from the Middle East that isn't aligned with the west.
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Mar 7, 2014 07:53
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utjkju posted:I believe my friends from Ukraina. I think, i don't have reasons that i will not believe my friends.
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Mar 7, 2014 08:11
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pigdog posted:Your friends do not have good information, either. Crimea has (most?) of its Internet cut, and only transfers TV channels that are under Russian government control. It's astonishing you would believe thousands of well organized guys, wearing the latest Russian camouflage uniforms, wielding weapon models that are only issued to Russian troops, riding armored vehicles, heck who say they are from Russia, are anything but Russian troops minus the identification. I'm sorry but your country is at war, it started an occupation and is lying to you and everyone else, a lot. Some my frriends live in Crimea. I think that thay have good information. 
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Mar 7, 2014 08:25
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Lord Windy posted:I ask because they contradict what you are saying and they all come from different sources, including one from the Middle East that isn't aligned with the west. I don't read newspapers. I tell and write with people in internet or call them. http://dok-zlo.livejournal.com/1416265.html - this man lives in Dnepropetrovsk. http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/ - this man lives in Crimea. http://imbg.livejournal.com/464317.html - this man lives in Kiev. utjkju fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Mar 7, 2014 |
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Mar 7, 2014 08:33
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utjkju posted:I don't read newspapers. I tell and write with people in internet or call them. http://youtu.be/ZwGd6vI-YsM А это просто прекрасная небольшая шутка из Одессы. You will not find a more Russian city than Odessa, and 75% of the population is die-hard opposed to splitting up the country. Even if one were to grant that the troops in Crimea are not Russian passport holders, providing material support for separatist movements is illegal in Russia and they have bitterly condemned other countries that have done so in the past. Smerdyakov fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Mar 7, 2014 |
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Mar 7, 2014 09:35
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Smerdyakov posted:http://youtu.be/ZwGd6vI-YsM who say they are from Russia Тут мне понравилось. - Бандеры, фашисты, гони эту прессу!!!- пожилой человек выразил свое отношение к Киевской власти. But people from Odessa don't asked for help of Russia. And people from Crimea asked for help of Russia. Old Ukrain man told this (who say they are from Russia): - In Kiev Nazi are located! utjkju fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Mar 7, 2014 |
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Mar 7, 2014 09:43
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poo poo, I thought even Russia admitted they were Russian. Seriously, I can understand the desire to ignore/exercise willful ignorance in the face of a traumatic event like a looming war, but holy poo poo. Dudes are Russian. Its a lovely situation that I hope get resolved without a war kicking the poo poo out of the Ukraine. Stay safe goons!
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Mar 7, 2014 10:39
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bulletsponge13 posted:poo poo, I thought even Russia admitted they were Russian. I think it is incomprehension. In Ukrain there are Russian troops all time. Because there is the contract between Ukrain and Russia. Government of Crimea asked for help Russia. But in Crimea there is army of Crimea (it is not Russian troops). Troops of Crimea patrol all territory of Crimea. Russian troops patrol only objects, which government of Crimea designate. But New government in Kiev don't recognized that Government of Crimea is legal. Therefore New government in Kiev tell that all events of government of Crimea are not legal. But there is one problem: people from Crimea think that New government in Kiev is not legal. Therefore they protect territories of Crimea from people, who think that New government in Kiev is legal. Why do you think that it is an occupation? Do you think that The Government of Crimea is not legal? Or do you think that all troops in Crimea is only russian troops? Do You know that most troops of Old Ukrain from Crimea swear The Crimea?
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Mar 7, 2014 14:34
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bulletsponge13 posted:poo poo, I thought even Russia admitted they were Russian. I bet you were one of those people who believed that there were US troops in Baghdad, even when the Iraqi Information Minister said that there weren't.
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Mar 7, 2014 15:42
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I guess I shouldn't be amazed, since it's one of the bedrock elements of the human psyche (including my own), but I'm still gobsmacked whenever I'm presented with a stark example of people willfully rejecting reality and substituting their own version based on team/tribal/ethnic/political loyalty. I'm talking about you, utjkju, and your wholehearted, skepticism-free endorsement of the Kremlin's talking points. Has it not occurred to you that your friends in Crimea might be giving you a distorted version of reality, because they are currently caught up in pro-Russian, anti-Ukrainian fervor? It has nothing to do with "trusting" them. I do not doubt that your friends would not lie to you. What I doubt is whether they are actually able to see the truth, much less admit it to themselves or to others, though the dense fog of nationalist passions that is swirling around these events. Note that, as I indicated in my first paragraph above, this is not a condemnation of Russia (including the Crimeans who consider themselves Russians). This is a universal human behavior -- just look at the incredibly irrational, reality-denying ways in which Americans reacted to 9/11. But I believe that, in order for this to become a more peaceful, less unjust world, all of us must recognize our strong tendency to do this and try to behave differently. One key step towards this, I think, is the practice of empathy. Ask yourself how you would feel about all of this if you were ethnically & linguistically Ukrainian (one of the non-fascist ones, perhaps) living in Kiev. It might look like this: the country was ruled by a Russian-speaking corrupto-crat who looted the treasury to (among other things) build his own little Versailles, and did Putin's bidding on many important issues. After he was ousted in late February (by a popular uprising which forced him to flee Kiev, after which in the Ukrainian parliament voted to officially remove him from power), the Kremlin claimed (on exceedingly thin evidence) that ethnic Russians in Ukraine were in physical danger, and with absurdly awkward attempts at concealing their actions, deployed troops to Crimea to help facilitate their plan to annex it. I can actually understand the ethnic-Russian Ukrainian's fears, and although I'm not nationalistic myself, I understand how emotionally powerful it can be. I hope that you can similarly understand how ethnic Ukrainians might be upset and frightened by the Kremlin's recent actions.
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Mar 7, 2014 16:36
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jimma posted:I can actually understand the ethnic-Russian Ukrainian's fears, and although I'm not nationalistic myself, I understand how emotionally powerful it can be. I hope that you can similarly understand how ethnic Ukrainians might be upset and frightened by the Kremlin's recent actions. This. In any revolution there is danger to certain populations within the nation that is changing governments. This is one of the reasons that the UN exists, however, so that multiple nations can all watch what is going on to attempt to ensure all human rights are being properly protected. The UN has offered to come in and help the Ukraine with this, but Russia has unilaterally decided to do it themselves. They did this while condemning the US for similar actions around the world, yet claim to be totally different, we are not imperialist like those darn Americans, nope, not us.
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Mar 7, 2014 16:49
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jimma posted:I guess I shouldn't be amazed, since it's one of the bedrock elements of the human psyche (including my own), but I'm still gobsmacked whenever I'm presented with a stark example of people willfully rejecting reality and substituting their own version based on team/tribal/ethnic/political loyalty. What Kremlin's recent actions you mean?
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Mar 7, 2014 16:53
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Danger of contract Ukrain with European Union https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeSCeswgKOs&t=1s
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Mar 7, 2014 16:58
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Hey utjkju I don't agree with your interpretation of events but this is Ask/Tell, not D&D, and you're closer to the action (or absence of it) than we are, please don't let these massive walls of text keep you from posting your perspective
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Mar 7, 2014 17:05
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RFC2324 posted:They did this while condemning the US for similar actions around the world, yet claim to be totally different, we are not imperialist like those darn Americans, nope, not us. Well it's kind of a two way street. Russia is hypocritical for taking this kind of action while condemning the US for our interference and our invasions... and the US is hypocritical for condemning Russia for this when we have so many interferences and invasions in our very recent history. People here point out that utjkju swallows the talking points of the Russian media, but the other side is more or less reflecting what we see in western media, which is also very biased. There's no real "neutral" party or source of information here.
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Mar 7, 2014 17:11
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Snowdens Secret posted:Hey utjkju I don't agree with your interpretation of events but this is Ask/Tell, not D&D, and you're closer to the action (or absence of it) than we are, please don't let these massive walls of text keep you from posting your perspective Goons argue, its in our nature.  and all that.We do appreciate reading all side tho, so you should keep with the posting.
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Mar 7, 2014 17:13
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jimma posted:After he was ousted in late February (by a popular uprising which forced him to flee Kiev, after which in the Ukrainian parliament voted to officially remove him from power) Except there's no reason to believe the uprising was truly 'popular' (i.e. there's a large silent majority especially in the East that disagrees with this). Nor is there any reason to believe the parliament, when making the decisions, was not under duress. On another note, denying the dudes in pseudo-Russian uniforms in Crimea are not Russian is lunacy. However, the reaction of the 'west' to this escalation is beyond hypocritical and fraught with false premises. Lets face it, nobody in the US cares what happens to Ukraine, they just don't want Russian influence growing. Crimeans have the same right to determine whether they want to remain in this 'new' Ukraine as much as Scots & Kosovars. And I'm glad that in case they decide 'no', there will be a friendly force to help them uphold that decision.
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Mar 7, 2014 17:19
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Snowdens Secret posted:Hey utjkju I don't agree with your interpretation of events but this is Ask/Tell, not D&D, and you're closer to the action (or absence of it) than we are, please don't let these massive walls of text keep you from posting your perspective I think that each person can have his opinion. And time will show... Russian people tell:"Spring will show who shitted and where" It is all.
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Mar 7, 2014 17:21
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The Capitulator posted:Except there's no reason to believe the uprising was truly 'popular' (i.e. there's a large silent majority especially in the East that disagrees with this). Nor is there any reason to believe the parliament, when making the decisions, was not under duress.  I'm in the US and I actually care.And its also good that said force is there to make sure they get to do what they want if they decide yes, amirite?
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Mar 7, 2014 17:23
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RFC2324 posted:
I was generalizing, I'm sure there are good samaritans such as yourself everywhere. RFC2324 posted:And its also good that said force is there to make sure they get to do what they want if they decide yes, amirite? Exactly!  EDIT: Oh look, 'acting' president of Ukraine says the Crimea referendum is illegal. I eagerly await the US/EU outrage at this denial for self-determination. The Capitulator fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Mar 7, 2014 |
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Mar 7, 2014 17:25
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utjkju posted:I think that each person can have his opinion. And time will show... That's a pretty good saying, and it will be true also in this case .
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Mar 7, 2014 17:25
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utjkju posted:What Kremlin's recent actions you mean? All of their actions in relation to the Ukrainian revolution are probably seen as hostile and threatening by ethnic Ukrainians, but especially the Russian parliament's authorization of military invasion after Yanukovych's fall, and the subsequent military occupation of Crimea.
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Mar 7, 2014 17:59
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The Capitulator posted:Except there's no reason to believe the uprising was truly 'popular' (i.e. there's a large silent majority especially in the East that disagrees with this) This is true -- but it's also true that the uprising was immensely popular in the western, ethnically/linguistically-Ukrainian part of Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan#Public_opinion_about_Euromaidan
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Mar 7, 2014 18:03
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jimma posted:This is true -- but it's also true that the uprising was immensely popular in the western, ethnically/linguistically-Ukrainian part of Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan#Public_opinion_about_Euromaidan I would like to highlight the last (latest) poll mentioned in your link: According to a January poll, 45% of Ukrainians supported the protests, and 48% of Ukrainians disapproved of Euromaidan.
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Mar 7, 2014 18:10
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I'd assume any relevant Wiki page is a vigorous battleground for the propaganda brigades (from both sides.) At best they're a broad explanation and a collection of maybe trustworthy links.
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Mar 7, 2014 18:24
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The poll in question is from the Kyiv Post. http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/more-ukrainians-disapprove-of-euromaidan-protests-than-approve-of-it-poll-336461.html This does not of course mean in and of itself that it's trustworthy, the article doesn't go into much detail about the poll's methodology and of course it could certainly have been done in a manipulative or biased way. But it's obviously not something someone just made up on Wikipedia.
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Mar 7, 2014 18:30
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The Capitulator posted:I would like to highlight the last (latest) poll mentioned in your link: Those are pretty much the same numbers that were reported in the month-earlier poll described just above that, so it doesn't appear that opinion changed at all between the two. The point is that the revolution was immensely popular where it occurred -- in Kiev, and in the rest of the majority-ethnic-Ukrainian part of the country. It was simultaneously immensely unpopular in the ethnic-Russian part of the country. This stark division appears to be at the root of most of Ukraine's problems.
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Mar 7, 2014 19:00
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The Capitulator posted:Except there's no reason to believe the uprising was truly 'popular' (i.e. there's a large silent majority especially in the East that disagrees with this). Nor is there any reason to believe the parliament, when making the decisions, was not under duress. It is more accurate to say that the want existing Russian influence reduced. Its the west that is Revisionist. The Status Quo Ante Belleum was that Kiev was not Anti Russian, but a Ukraine run by Yanukovich wasnt exactly an assett to the Kremlin, especially since Yanukovich strove hard to force political Forces that Putin could negotiate with instead of him into Submission. In "strategy game Terms", Yanukovich was a "vasall" that was pretty inefficent in running his Country, always asked for more Money, and was sufficiently corrupt that "turning over to the west" was always a possibility. This possiblity was removed by the EU, when they presented a proposal that would have been totally obvious political suicide to sign. The Terms were: -2 Billion in loans for Ukraine In Exchange: -Austerity measures, first of those is cancelling subventions on Energy, note that this deal was offered just before winter. People would freeze to death. -No Energy Submission is also a bigger deal for Eastern than for Western Ukraine. Eastern Ukraine has industry, and thus consumes considerably more energy than western Ukraine. Making energy far more expensive would weaken his eastern powerbase a lot. -Fire a lot of public employees -Cut down on already ridiculously low pensions -Also, "free Yulia Timoschenko". If implementing Austerity measures wouldnt kill Yanukovich chances at reelection, letting his most powerfull poltiical enemy run free (and run free while being able to completely wash her Hands concerning Austerity) was certain political suicide. Meanwhile, Putin offered: - Loan of 15 billions -Nearly no strings attached, other prioritizing repaying existing loans over funneling Money into the pockets of Yanukovichs son. On Balance, one has to be pretty brain dead to think that the EU deal was a better idea. Yanukovich was good at "oligopolizing" power (largely meaning that, if Putin wants to influence Ukraine, he has to go through him and only him). This meant Jailing Timoschenko, getting the "Communists", a part of whom split off because they couldnt stand Yanukovich, under him etc. Yanukovich was not much perturbed by the rise of Svoboda. There is literally no way Putin/Russia would make a deal with them, and having literal fascists as your "political opponents" does ensure that East Ukraine holds ist nose and votes Party of Regions. The west used to have "monopolized" the liberal parts of western Ukraine, and the liberal parts of Eastern Ukraine arent very strong to start with. Given the pretty drat poor western track record in keeping promises with Russia, "dealing" with the "pro west liberals" is kinda iffy for Putin too. First, they arent very powerfull in the Ukrainian context to start with, second, they are likely to break any Agreement once they actually become powerfull. Concerning dealing directly with Oligarchs, it is very very important to note the huge difference between Ukraine and Russia, in Russia, the Oligarchs are powerfull but under the state, in Ukraine, Oligarchs decide who is the state. Thats also a material difference for the respective People. Salaries and life expectancy rose considerably under Putin, Ukraine is still as hosed up as it was during Yeltsins time. Allying with Oligarchs directly, and giving them direct political power would create a pretty dangerous precedent for Putin, who consideres Russian Oligarchs as his most powerfull potential opponents by far. The new Kiev Regime has no such concerns, several Oligarchs have direct Minister Posts, other Oligarchs were Chose by Kiev to be gouvernours of Eastern Ukraine. Concerning how right wing the new Kiev Regime ist, from a German pov, the "left wing" of the Maidan protests, Klitschkos UDAR, is basically the equivalent of the most rightwing Party that has seats on the federal Level, the CDU/CSU. Everyone else is in EuroMaidan is further rightwing. Btw: I am personally very carefull about calling People Nazis or Fascists, since that gets overused, especially in the USA, a lot. Svoboda used to be the "Social Nationalist Pary" (NSDAP was the "National-Socialist Party"), it used direct Fascist imagaes, it called out for an "Ukraine without Jews or Russians", ("Lets drown the Moscovites in Jewish blood" is also popular) it idolizes Nazi collaboratour Bandera, it uses tactics used by the Nazis when they made the Powerplay in Weimar Germany. Calling them Nazis is completely legitimate. Mightypeon fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Mar 8, 2014 |
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Mar 8, 2014 12:06
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What do you think about news: Maidan ask for to organize The New goverment anew. (Kiev) http://www.rbc.ru/rbcfreenews/20140307195622.shtml http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1463031.html
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Mar 8, 2014 14:39
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utjkju posted:What do you think about news: The spin that is being put on this by your sources is amusing; it's kind of, "See? Rabble and extremists are in charge! They want to be the dictators of Ukraine!" Here's a more sympathetic view. Money quote: "Moscow argues that the Ukrainian protests have been taken over by extremists. But on the Maidan, there were strong fears that the revolution was being sold out. Activists were unhappy with the roster of veteran politicians being mentioned for top posts in a new government." This jibes with the picture that Tankus has painted of the revolution: like most recent revolutionary movements, from the Arab Spring to OWS, it's a moment when people perceive that fundamental change for the better in governance and society might be possible. The protesters' desire to not see the same old faces, associated with oligarchy and corruption, in the new government makes sense in that context.
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Mar 8, 2014 15:43
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