|
down with slavery posted:I disagree and think that you've fell victim to a few too many Facebook forwards. I'm excited to learn more. Tell me where I'm wrong.
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 07:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 23:31 |
|
OwlBot 2000 posted:I'm excited to learn more. Tell me where I'm wrong. You posted a thread called "What should be done about India" when you live in a country that has more than it's own fair share of problems and then proceeded to trumpet your ignorance when called out on it. quote:Is it possible to solve these without forcible secularization, changes to culture Really? You want to know where you went wrong? If you wanted to learn about India you should read Wikipedia, not make "fix-em-up" threads in D&D for countries where the most you know is that "nobody has defended India". Also fyi for as much hate as the "caste" system gets in this thread, America basically has the same thing, it just manifests itself in a different way. Humans are capital here too and it can be difficult or impossible to improve your social status due to reasons outside of your control. down with slavery fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Mar 12, 2014 |
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 07:50
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:You posted a thread called "What should be done about India" when you live in a country that has more than it's own fair share of problems and then proceeded to trumpet your ignorance when called out on it. quote:Really? You want to know where you went wrong? If you wanted to learn about India you should read Wikipedia, not make "fix-em-up" threads in D&D for countries where the most you know is that "nobody has defended India". It's not even that nobody defended India, it's that nobody said my description of India's current problems in the OP was hyperbolic when I intentionally tried to overstate my case. That did not happen in five pages. Aside from my provocative thread title, is there any reason there shouldn't be a discussion of Indian poverty, violence and corruption? down with slavery posted:Also fyi for as much hate as the "caste" system gets in this thread, America basically has the same thing, it just manifests itself in a different way. Humans are capital here too and it can be difficult or impossible to improve your social status due to reasons outside of your control. I've made lots of posts about income inequality and economic mobility in the US. It's not at all the same as a caste system. Am I not allowed to discuss problems in other countries until I solve all of ours?
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 07:55
|
|
OwlBot 2000 posted:I'm well aware of that, and have made multiple threads about those issues. I started this thread in the hope that I could learn more and get other perspectives, and sure enough Yiggy taught me some stuff. You, however, have done nothing but attempt to use problems in Western countries as a reason not to discuss problems in other countries. Is that what I did? I think all I said was that all cultures have things that are objectively wrong. Using the words "objectively wrong" about a culture is just dumb. It's subjective by nature and it's just typical American bullshit to start spouting off about  objectivityquote:is there any reason there shouldn't be a discussion of Indian poverty, violence and corruption? Nope, but if "their culture is objectively wrong" is going to be a line of reasoning as to why they deserve some special recognition over other countries it's probably not a great place to start. OwlBot 2000 posted:I've made lots of posts about income inequality and economic mobility in the US. It's not at all the same as a caste system. And why is that? All of the things I listed aren't applicable analogies?
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 07:59
|
|
|
Ahh yes the old "well see the U.S. is just as bad so you can't talk about any issues ever" argument
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:13
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:You posted a thread called "What should be done about India" when you live in a country that has more than it's own fair share of problems and then proceeded to trumpet your ignorance when called out on it. No amount of D&D discussion will actually result in the US or any other western country doing anything "about" India. But that doesn't stop an interesting discussion about India's problems to be had. Nobody ITT is denying the massive amount of problems facing the US and the west in general. quote:Also fyi for as much hate as the "caste" system gets in this thread, America basically has the same thing, it just manifests itself in a different way. Humans are capital here too and it can be difficult or impossible to improve your social status due to reasons outside of your control.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:14
|
|
|
Regardless of how you feel about the threads premise, the notion that the caste system is basically the same thing as our own class problems is so woefully ignorant that it seriously hurts your credibility and your strident, high-handed dismissal of OwlBot 2000, as much as I've disagreed with his insistence on outside intervention of Indian society and the proposal of Stalinism minus Stalin.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:14
|
|
Arakan posted:Ahh yes the old "well see the U.S. is just as bad so you can't talk about any issues ever" argument Well, if we're going to start labeling cultures as "objectively wrong" the US seems like a great place to start. And again, I don't think India is some paradise, I just think that the tone of many posters in this thread is comical, and again, calling a culture "objectively wrong" is just ridiculous Arakan posted:Then you should probably make a separate thread about it You know if you actually read what I was posting what I responded to you might understand my point, which is that talking about "objectively wrong" cultures and placing India on some special pedestal is dumb. That's literally it. down with slavery fucked around with this message at 08:16 on Mar 12, 2014 |
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:14
|
|
down with slavery posted:Well, if we're going to start labeling cultures as "objectively wrong" the US seems like a great place to start. Then you should probably make a separate thread about it
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:15
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Well, if we're going to start labeling cultures as "objectively wrong" the US seems like a great place to start. Who gives a gently caress? This is a thread about India, not the US. You're arguing what's called an appeal to hypocrisy here. I mean, read through this poo poo and tell me it's not objectively wrong. quote:Mr Pathak remembers being reprimanded by his grandmother for touching a low-caste woman in his village in the state of Uttar Pradesh. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f6b_1389500792
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:16
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Well, if we're going to start labeling cultures as "objectively wrong" the US seems like a great place to start.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:16
|
|
Wanamingo posted:I mean, read through this poo poo and tell me it's not objectively wrong. Individual events I'll agree we can start easily making moral judgements left and right. When you start talking about entire cultures the picture is much blurrier in my eyes. Typo posted:yes, except this isn't a thread dedicated to talking about the US, that would be like the other 5-6 threads on the front page Right over your head Yiggy posted:Regardless of how you feel about the threads premise, the notion that the caste system is basically the same thing as our own class problems is so woefully ignorant that it seriously hurts your credibility and your strident, high-handed dismissal of OwlBot 2000, as much as I've disagreed with his insistence on outside intervention of Indian society and the proposal of Stalinism minus Stalin. Look, I have no problem with OwlBot 2000, but this: OwlBot 2000 posted:I would have loved some replies telling me, "no, it's not all that bad here!" but there's one of that. That tells you India has some very serious problems that merit analysis, beyond any suggestion that we're unfairly singling out one group Deserves nothing but dismissal down with slavery fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Mar 12, 2014 |
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:17
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Right over your head
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:19
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Individual events I'll agree we can start easily making moral judgements left and right. When you start talking about entire cultures the picture is much blurrier in my eyes. Did you read through that poo poo like I asked? It was discussing half a million untouchables that work as scavengers, that's not an individual event.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:20
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:I disagree and think that you've fell victim to a few too many Facebook forwards. If the strongest argument you have is that nobody has defended India on the Something Awful forums I don't know what to tell you. Last time I checked, American law recognised rape in marriage and didn't have a tribal culture in rural areas which actively orders women be gang-raped as forms of punishment. And even if they did I don't understand why that should automatically mean we can't have a discussion on how these problems are affecting other societies. Your apparent argument that we must live in completely perfect societies before passing judgement on another is loving stupid. Of course I could be wrong because western morality objectivity marxism existentialism. piss explosion fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Mar 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:20
|
|
Wanamingo posted:Did you read through that poo poo like I asked? It was discussing half a million untouchables that work as scavengers, that's not an individual event. Again, things can be bad without the entire culture being "objectively wrong". Seriously, you guys have got your panties in quite a twist over defending some really lovely justifications. I'm sorry, it takes more than few LiveLeak video descriptions for me to start painting entire cultures with some hard hitting "rational" analysis. piss explosion posted:Last time I checked, American law recognised rape in marriage and didn't have a tribal culture in rural areas which actively orders women be gang-raped as forms of punishment. And even if they did I don't understand why that should automatically mean we can't have a discussion on how these problems are affecting other societies.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:22
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Again, things can be bad without the entire culture being "objectively wrong". Seriously, you guys have got your panties in quite a twist over defending some really lovely justifications. I'm sorry, it takes more than few LiveLeak video descriptions for me to start painting entire cultures with some hard hitting "rational" analysis. I don't think that people are saying that the entirety of Indian culture is bad, just that large swaths of it are. Or is there a situation where the existence of untouchables isn't objectively wrong?
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:25
|
|
|
Down with Slavery are you Indian?
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:27
|
|
Wanamingo posted:I don't think that people are saying that the entirety of Indian culture is bad, just that large swaths of it are. Or is there a situation where the existence of untouchables isn't objectively wrong? Maybe you should read the post I originally quoted... Tatum Girlparts posted:There are some cultures that are objectively wrong. A culture where a woman has decent odds of being raped as punishment if she reports a rape is most likely one of those. FizFashizzle posted:Down with Slavery are you Indian? lol down with slavery fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Mar 12, 2014 |
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:28
|
|
|
The US doesn't have rape as punishment or mass kidnappings but also it isn't clear the US government or Americans in general really have a way of recommending any course of actions beyond "just be like us." Nation building outside of the industrialized world been a disaster and quite often as proven to make things even worse. So Americans can give a pat on their backs that they are "more advanced" than India but thats about it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:29
|
|
|
intellectual masturbation over a question like "is the existence of untouchables objectively wrong" is a lovely rhetorical bait-and-switch. The switch is a self-righteous insistence that $_SIMPLISTIC_SOLUTION will readily win acquiescence and justify violence against any opposition, because the caste problem is so self-evidently wrong
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:30
|
|
ronya posted:intellectual masturbation over a question like "is the existence of untouchables objectively wrong" is a lovely rhetorical bait-and-switch. The switch is a self-righteous insistence that $_SIMPLISTIC_SOLUTION will readily win acquiescence and justify violence against any opposition, because the caste problem is so self-evidently wrong Another poster fails to recognize the difference between a part of a culture and the entire thing. Language and the words you choose are important. Bringing the word "objectively" into any kind of discussion regarding culture is dangerous to say the least. Would I object to someone labeling the caste system as "objectively wrong"? No. I tend to agree that this is a place where we can make a moral judgement of wrong and right, but I don't think that issue alone should place India in some special category of having an "objectively wrong culture."
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:32
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Another poster fails to recognize the difference between a part of a culture and the entire thing. Language and the words you choose are important. I don't think we actually disagree?
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:35
|
|
ronya posted:I don't think we actually disagree? Me either, I'm pretty surprised by the vitriol that I was met with when I originally objected to those characterizations.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:36
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Maybe you should read the post I originally quoted... Okay, I guess I did speak too soon there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:37
|
|
|
ronya posted:intellectual masturbation over a question like "is the existence of untouchables objectively wrong" is a lovely rhetorical bait-and-switch. The switch is a self-righteous insistence that $_SIMPLISTIC_SOLUTION will readily win acquiescence and justify violence against any opposition, because the caste problem is so self-evidently wrong Granted, it wouldn't be the first time and if anything I think you can see that "objectively wrong" events or aspects can be used to tar and belittle a culture with pretty in-creditable malice with little to show for it. India obviously does have problems but to be honest most of the solutions I have heard from Americans and other Westerns especially have been absolutely awful.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 08:38
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:Me either, I'm pretty surprised by the vitriol that I was met with when I originally objected to those characterizations. as I said, the vitriol is because it's a cheap rhetorical tactic to shift the attention to the evil rather than the problems of the proposed solution. The more outraged you are, the less you think about the fiddly details standing in the way of catharsis
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 09:03
|
|
|
ronya posted:as I said, the vitriol is because it's a cheap rhetorical tactic to shift the attention to the evil rather than the problems of the proposed solution. The more outraged you are, the less you think about the fiddly details standing in the way of catharsis Personally, I jumped on down with slavery because it seemed to me like they were defending India's shittiness with the ideas that you can't judge other people's culture, and that America is bad too so who are we to criticize.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 09:22
|
|
|
Developing countries and corruption. Oh boy I love talking about this. Corruption I'm talking about is not India-centric but has been addressed lightly here and there. Please allow me to elaborate. I'm not going to delve into capitalist/socialist economic theory. We all know corruption is Bad with a capital B but how do you fight it? This question gets asked around all the freaking time. I'm very opinionated about this issue because I grew up in Hong Kong and historically we are just as corrupt as any other developing country. Nowadays we are top 20 (slipping because of  ) on the transparency international corruption perception index. Corruption is not really ingrained in any culture but it's like a bad case of herpes where it flares up from time to time. There are many forms like small time petty (think giving cigarettes to policemen), big like funneling money from a public works project to someone's pocket, and systemic (it's everywhere  )The problem with corruption is the lack of transparency. You create shadow parallel power/legal system which undermines the legal system. So everyone is sucked in and has no idea how to get out. Is a speeding ticket penalty really 50 bucks? Or 20 bucks? or 30 bucks? And different officers will have different scales, and nobody would really know the big picture. Which in turn creates a bigger inefficiency. But that's just the situation, how about the people living in the system, how do they respond? You get a few type of people who commit corruption. The herbivores, those who don't want to commit corruption at all, but do so because of social pressure to avoid being ostracized. The omnivores, those who see a opportunity and don't mind like shaking down a loan shark or a pimp. Then there are the carnivores and they are just nasty nasty scum. They are the short term gently caress You Got Mine in a Swiss Bank account types. If carnivores are put into positions of authority or power then corruption will even grow faster. After describing the types of corruption and the people, how do you fight it and reduce it? Goons have noted a stronger legal system. Empowering women. Both are great. I don't have the absolute answer for India but I can highlight a few other examples. Singapore and Hong Kong did a gigantic shake down. They basically hired a new Anti corruption police from scratch and cleaned house. For a feel good story many people in top government positions got caught. But it was a brutal affair. Rioting police officers and lots of people who are part of the pie were angry. Illegal wire taping and intimidation tactics were made for successful convictions. Businesses basically got off scot free but anti corruption laws, education, government propaganda (I buy into anti corruption big time, heck I'm more into transparency than democracy), developing an environment to trust law enforcement, and reinvesting the gained efficiency into social development will keep it low. But it's a really really big effort and sometimes the causes can fracture society more than it can handle. Hong Kong and Singapore are relatively low on corruption on a global scale. Not that these places are the best places to live on earth. There is still a major poverty wealth gap and glaring issues with the government. Corruption however, is kind of baked in to the system like the western world. Poor people still get their clocked clean, but at least they can see it coming to nickel and dime them and not die in a shoddily built school building.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 10:59
|
|
|
The Hong Kong/Singapore solution is not particularly relevant because the solution in both involved an already-highly-centralized executive authority, whose chief executive had their power assured by London. Furthermore, the judiciary was not compromised; the problem was low-level enforcement and interaction with the business culture. That's why both city-states tackled the problem by reversing presumption of innocence in graft cases - instead imposing a presumption of guilt - and making evidence seizure powers extremely wide. They also could sidestep the middle tiers of the executive, by having the ICAC/CPIB report directly to the chief executive. That's practical at a city-state level but not for a 1 billion large federation, even if you have an extraordinary faith in the technocratic purity of Manmohan Singh's successors. India has a dysfunctionally slow judiciary, and cannot plausibly rely on outsiders to guarantee executive power. It already has problems with local ethnic populism trumping trust in the judicial process.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 11:34
|
|
|
You mention sheer size as one of the obstacles. Assuming the other myriad obstacles were somehow overcome, could it be done on a state or other more local level, region by region (or just for one region which would then develop and stand as an example), or does the presence of the central government and corrupt peer governments also impede the process? For example, someone gets their friend in the central government to remove you when you obstruct their scam.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 12:11
|
|
|
When you're saying that widespread violence against women is wrong and particularly a problem in India, let's be VERY VERY VERY CAREFUL to avoid implying that naan bread and fancy dancing is also a problem.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 14:14
|
|
|
Fallom posted:When you're saying that widespread violence against women is wrong and particularly a problem in India, let's be VERY VERY VERY CAREFUL to avoid implying that naan bread and fancy dancing is also a problem. I agree about the naan bread, but gently caress the fancy dancing. That poo poo sucks.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 14:26
|
|
|
Wanamingo posted:Personally, I jumped on down with slavery because it seemed to me like they were defending India's shittiness with the ideas that you can't judge other people's culture, and that America is bad too so who are we to criticize. In fairness that is exactly what slavery was doing before the furious backpedaling.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 14:48
|
|
|
Fallom posted:When you're saying that widespread violence against women is wrong and particularly a problem in India, let's be VERY VERY VERY CAREFUL to avoid implying that naan bread and fancy dancing is also a problem. Absolutely. I'd much rather argue the semantics of "culture" while totally avoiding context instead of discussing practical solutions to issues like constant gang rape.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 16:12
|
|
|
India's problems with crime, pollution, misogyny and rape culture, religious extremism (one of whose proponents is going to carry the next election) etc basically spring out of widespread poverty, massive overpopulation and a lack of access to education. Everyone thought market reforms would carry the day (rising tides and all) but there's simply too many people to support, and foreign investment can't be relied on since most foreign companies with a brain should be looking elsewhere. The answer is clearly genocide, OP. I'm from GBS 
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 16:31
|
|
|
So because the USA and the UK have ghettos where bad things happen, bad things happening on a much larger scale, being led by public figures and going largely unpunished in India is okay? Because there are people with more money than other people in the USA and the UK, a religiously enforced caste system that condemns people from cradle to the grave to horrible suffering in India is okay? Because a few people in the USA and UK didn't give their kids vaccinations for dumb reasons is okay, the holy river being used as a sewer/cemetery, while also being the drinking supply for millions is totally acceptable? Gosh people in glass houses sure shouldn't throw stones. There's nothing in Indian culture that can be criticized because things are so bad in the West.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 16:31
|
|
|
Violent Marxist revolution is the only true solution.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 16:48
|
|
|
El Scotch posted:Violent Marxist revolution is the only true solution. Marxism is in line with my opinions, so I agree a lot. Good job, you! Three cheers for murder! Two wrongs do make a right!
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 16:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 23:31 |
|
|
A lovely corrupt country divided on ethnic lines and with no history of central government is definitely the place for the Marxist Utopia.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2014 17:04
|
|