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Riso posted:The difference is that Russia is a strong authoritarian state and Ukraine is effectively a house of cards. Even thats a stretch when Russia itself was experiencing mass protests not that long ago. If you aren't willing to fight or even question fascists drinking some beers in the park then your right to intervene in a country to "fight fascism" becomes rather...laughable even if that country is unstable. It is a thin excuse that becomes even thinner if you spent time in Russia itself. If Putin gets toppled, how many of these guys talking about Fascism are going to fighting to keep the far-right off the streets? Grouchy Smurf posted:God, I don't know if I should laugh or cry. They actually advertise everything on their site. Technology companies are more discrete about the laboratory equipment they have for sale. Admittedly Belarus only had access to relative older equipment anyway, but yeah they aren't shy about it. I don't know if the SU-27s they are selling really could put up much of a fight with modern NATO equipment since they may not be selling modernized versions. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Mar 22, 2014 |
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Mar 22, 2014 14:26
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Mar 22, 2014 14:30
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Grouchy Smurf posted:God, I don't know if I should laugh or cry. They actually advertise everything on their site. Technology companies are more discrete about the laboratory equipment they have for sale. All of those are pretty much compareable to NATO equipment of the same generation. There is no discrace really in selling any of that, Russia does not sell any next or current gen equipment except to India. -M1A1 Abrams, Leopard 2A4-5 are T-80UM/90 Equals. Russian tanks are alot nastier than Iraqi produced knockoffs might lead you to believe. -Tunguska is a formidable Close in Air Defense System. -F-16, F-15 are in the same league as MiG-29 and SU-27. All are coldwar era fighters on their last few service years. -Su-24's are sold as surplus. -The SU-25 is a ground attack aircraft compreable to the A-10, although it designed to carry missiles and bombs rather than a giant gattling gun. On Topic though, It's not that big but I find it pretty funny. One wannabe Swedish petrol baron bought all shares the blacklisted Gennadij Timtjenko dumped a few days ago and ended up getting flak from the Foreign Affaris Department, where he is also involved. He now owns like 87% of the company. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Mar 22, 2014 |
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Mar 22, 2014 14:48
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:All of those are pretty much compareable to NATO equipment of the same generation. There is no discrace really in selling any of that, Russia does not sell any next or current gen equipment except to India. As far as the MIG-29/SU-27 they were equals back in the 1990s, but most f-15/f-16s at this point have been seriously been upgraded or were newly built with modern avionics. There are similar upgrade programs for MIG 29s/SU-27s but in the case of Belarus it is quite possible you are getting their old surplus stuff that hasn't been upgraded. The SU-25 does a pretty good job at its mission though, and even a surplus one could (and has done) serious damage on the ground.
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Mar 22, 2014 14:57
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Ardennes posted:The SU-25 does a pretty good job at its mission though, and even a surplus one could (and has done) serious damage on the ground. Hell, its practically the same thing as the A-10, complete with a non-Gatling 30mm cannon. Can even fire depleted uranium rounds. Russia was just distinctly aware that they could not afford to feed a chain gun ammo hog, and probably went the right direction with the Su-25 And to be fair, all current M1A1s in service are now M1A2s. And the Leopard 2 is in the middle of a massive planned upgrade.
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Mar 22, 2014 15:02
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Ardennes posted:As far as the MIG-29/SU-27 they were equals back in the 1990s, but most f-15/f-16s at this point have been seriously been upgraded or were newly built with modern avionics. There are similar upgrade programs for MIG 29s/SU-27s but in the case of Belarus it is quite possible you are getting their old surplus stuff that hasn't been upgraded. At the risk of the thread's descent into groverchat, what exactly changes when somebody takes an old aircraft design and updates it? I have no idea and I'm curious. If you take an F-16 made in 1970-something and compare it to one made in the last five years (do they still make them?), I get that it'd have a faster radar lock, probably be more resistant to jamming and so on, but would it also have a hugely different performance?
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Mar 22, 2014 15:05
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Not to derail the topic any further, but the reason why BelTechExport is "weird" is that they advertise everything on their site. Similar companies will have general descriptions on their fields of expertise, and a contact form. You contact them, they check you out, they tell you what they are willing to sell to you and for what price. BelTechExport is a step before price-list and online-checkout. Adar posted:At the risk of the thread's descent into groverchat, what exactly changes when somebody takes an old aircraft design and updates it? I have no idea and I'm curious. If you take an F-16 made in 1970-something and compare it to one made in the last five years (do they still make them?), I get that it'd have a faster radar lock, probably be more resistant to jamming and so on, but would it also have a hugely different performance? 80% of the aircraft "power" is its electronics and weapon systems. Planes do not get involved in dogfights anymore, things like top speed and manoeuvrability are not as important as they once were (well, they are, but for totally different reasons) Grouchy Smurf fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Mar 22, 2014 |
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Mar 22, 2014 15:05
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Adar posted:At the risk of the thread's descent into groverchat, what exactly changes when somebody takes an old aircraft design and updates it? I have no idea and I'm curious. If you take an F-16 made in 1970-something and compare it to one made in the last five years (do they still make them?), I get that it'd have a faster radar lock, probably be more resistant to jamming and so on, but would it also have a hugely different performance? Well, in the 1990s the F-16 got a new engine as part of the IPE (Increased Performance Engine) program, basically just a modified version of its original engine. CAPES is supposed to upgrade a lot of the avionics and other control systems, but there are budget issues now that might impact it. There are half a million damned variants of the F-16, and Lockheed is always offering new and improved versions, so its probably still in production. Lockheed has said they will continue producing for foreign sales and upgrades until 2020.
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Mar 22, 2014 15:11
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The Russian army has surrounded Belbek military base, as the ultimatum deadline has passed. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/russian-troops-surround-crimea-airbase-201432213217676991.html Live feed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoLi25S-Kv8 HUGE PUBES A PLUS fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Mar 22, 2014 |
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Mar 22, 2014 15:16
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Adar posted:At the risk of the thread's descent into groverchat, what exactly changes when somebody takes an old aircraft design and updates it? I have no idea and I'm curious. If you take an F-16 made in 1970-something and compare it to one made in the last five years (do they still make them?), I get that it'd have a faster radar lock, probably be more resistant to jamming and so on, but would it also have a hugely different performance? As others have said, most of the differences are in the modular systems themselves rather than the airframe or the engines. Granted, after 35 years I am sure improvements have been made but the focus is still going to be on its electronic warfare systems, avionics, and radar. The Russians obviously have been making improvements on their own systems since 1991, and time hasn't frozen for them while it effectively has for old surplus Soviet aircraft. This may not matter that much for a CAS aircraft like the SU-25, even the A-10 had remarkably primitive systems until recently. For air superiority aircraft it is going to be a much bigger issue, and if they aren't upgraded they aren't going to have much of a shot against a modern F-16 or other NATO aircraft. Well hopefully we don't go full groverchat, because I don't think there is that much to argue. The F-22 and F-35 are obviously more expensive and superior aircraft to whatever Russia has or much less its surplus. The PAK FA is a bit more debatable but to be honest, I don't think anyone around here is qualified to say either way (you probably need to work with Sukhoi). That said, I don't see a situation where modern NATO or Russian aircraft are going to come into contact.
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Mar 22, 2014 15:32
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People are crawling under the main gate 
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Mar 22, 2014 15:37
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Frogfoots are very powerful in offensive CAS operations but their only proper defensive mechanism is speed, which is just good enough to possibly weasel out of ground based air defense systems range and/or LoS. It's near helpless against A2A attacks and it would get wrecked in seconds if it ran into a good modern ADS like a Gepard or equivalent. The Russians are currently upgrading their 25s on the cheap with a focus on extended lifespan, targeting systems and upkeep reduction. They are figuratively glass cannons, very powerful until they run into proper air defense. What's most interesting is which direction their next MBT will be going, considering they've apparantly already settled on an upgunned 140mm cannon and speculations are it will be uparmored too. /milchat Has anyone of the pro Russia/RT crowd commented on Russia seizing, blockading and attempting to seize more Ukrainian naval vessels (like it is happening right now)? I'd love to hear an explanation on the legality of literal piracy.
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Mar 22, 2014 15:40
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az posted:
That's easy. They'll claim that since they were based from Crimea they are now properly Russian fleet. Don't ask me how they'd justify Russian navy trapping them in port before the referendum, though. One of the aftermaths of all of this will be the Ukrainian government claiming the value of all of these (and a lot of industry and such) as part of Russia's debt to Ukraine. Edit: that's of course one of the practical problems of how Crimea happened --- there is no sensible agreement on what happens with property. Gas stuff is especially obvious since Ukraine invested billions into development of stuff, and now Russia is just taking it, but of course it goes for military infrastructure, too. Heck, there are still disagreements over some USSR stuff, and that breakup had proper treaties. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Mar 22, 2014 |
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Mar 22, 2014 15:54
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OddObserver posted:One of the aftermaths of all of this will be the Ukrainian government claiming the value of It wouldn't surprise me if the Russians don't even count it as that, and just claim the ships as 'Crimean state property' and leave the Ukrainian's out to dry.
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Mar 22, 2014 15:55
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Crimea SOS posted:Urgent! There is information about active preparation to storm the Information Center of the Ukrainian Navy in Sevastopol. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10152292288699650&id=1375826859358461&stream_ref=1
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Mar 22, 2014 15:56
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az posted:Frogfoots are very powerful in offensive CAS operations but their only proper defensive mechanism is speed, which is just good enough to possibly weasel out of ground based air defense systems range and/or LoS. It's near helpless against A2A attacks and it would get wrecked in seconds if it ran into a good modern ADS like a Gepard or equivalent. The Russians are currently upgrading their 25s on the cheap with a focus on extended lifespan, targeting systems and upkeep reduction. They are figuratively glass cannons, very powerful until they run into proper air defense. Granted, it is also why they are pretty well suited to air to ground missions in the third world, usually places where they really aren't well developed AA systems that or used against insurgencies. By the same token, we know how the A-10 fared against Iraqi systems but not against actually Soviet/Russian ones. As far as Belbek, are there still aircraft there? A big portion of the Ukrainian air force was stationed in Crimea.
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Mar 22, 2014 15:57
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I'm really interested in the long-term economic and political effects on Russia from Putin's little game of Risk. Surely they've effectively shot themselves in the foot here.
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Mar 22, 2014 16:00
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awesome-express posted:I'm really interested in the long-term economic and political effects on Russia from Putin's little game of Risk. Surely they've effectively shot themselves in the foot here. I think this was discussed in the last thread, basically for right now they HAVE shot themselves in the foot, but in the long run unless they start a shooting war or do something else, they'll effectively recover in a year or so.
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Mar 22, 2014 16:02
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Since we're doing milchat I was wondering how the modern Euro fighters stack up their American and Russian counterparts. I'm talking about things like the Gripen, Typhoon and Rafale. Am I right to assume they're not on the same level?
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Mar 22, 2014 16:03
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CommieGIR posted:I think this was discussed in the last thread, basically for right now they HAVE shot themselves in the foot, but in the long run unless they start a shooting war or do something else, they'll effectively recover in a year or so. You think so? I believe their actions will have longer lasting consequences than just a year of economic stagnation. A Pale Horse posted:Since we're doing milchat I was wondering how the modern Euro fighters stack up their American and Russian counterparts. I'm talking about things like the Gripen, Typhoon and Rafale. Am I right to assume they're not on the same level? Isn't the Eurofighter in the same league as the F-35?
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Mar 22, 2014 16:05
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awesome-express posted:You think so? I believe their actions will have longer lasting consequences than just a year of economic stagnation. Generation behind.
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Mar 22, 2014 16:06
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awesome-express posted:You think so? As in, not worth the money? Back on topic, any news on the base siege? The livefeed doesn't help when you don't know who is who.
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Mar 22, 2014 16:07
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awesome-express posted:You think so? I believe their actions will have longer lasting consequences than just a year of economic stagnation. Unless Europe finds a way out of buying natural gas from Russia (say, instead, buying it from America, but logistics is a problem), Russia will still be economically viable for some time. This just popped up in my feed: http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/21/obama-administration-very-concerned-further-russian-incursion-ukraine-possibly-coming-days/ Spoiler, it is CNN. quote:Based on intelligence, Obama administration officials are very concerned the Russians are not being truthful when they say their forces near Ukraine's eastern and southern borders are merely there for training exercises, sources tell CNN. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Mar 22, 2014 |
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Mar 22, 2014 16:08
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Eurofighter's up there with the F-22, it's a nifty piece of kit.
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Mar 22, 2014 16:13
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awesome-express posted:Isn't the Eurofighter in the same league as the F-35? In short, the F35 is a complete disaster that costs more than any other plane and performs like poo poo. The Gripen and Rafale are one gen behind and the F22 and EF are comparable in some tests, but both have birthing problems ranging from annoying to pretty bad. They still need time to get to a stable service ceiling, while the F35 will, in my view, never amount to anything but a colossal failure. The Russian PAK-FA is still in advanced testing and has technical problems to overcome but could be promising. They're also working on a future stealth fighter but it's still in the design stages as Mig 1.27. edit: please let's not turn this into groverchat, if you think the F35 is the second coming of Christ that's cool but let's keep that out of this thread until F35s are falling from the Moscow skies.
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Mar 22, 2014 16:15
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And the live feed camera is down.
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Mar 22, 2014 16:15
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drat! A soldier just climbed up the poll the camera was on and it looks like he ripped it right off. The feed is dead.
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Mar 22, 2014 16:15
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Chuck Boone posted:drat! A soldier just climbed up the poll the camera was on and it looks like he ripped it right off. The feed is dead. e: nevermind. e2: Forums Terrorist posted:Eurofighter's up there with the F-22, it's a nifty piece of kit. Are you... sure about that?
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Mar 22, 2014 16:18
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:Back up for me. Its not live anymore from the looks of it, looks like an archive now...
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Mar 22, 2014 16:19
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Camera gets ripped off right about here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoLi25S-Kv8&t=1849607s EDIT: The HTML5 version of the video isn't popping to the right time. If you have flashblock like me, you might have to restore it to the flash video in order to hit the right time. Mr. Nice! fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Mar 22, 2014 |
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Mar 22, 2014 16:25
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blowfish posted:
Hells yeah plane chat  In fact he is sure. The EF is equal, maybe even better in a couple of regards. But those regards are not "Is the better air dominance fighter", as you might imagine. However there have been a couple of tests and simulations and the EF does well in quite a few areas. Point being they are completely different planes. The F22 is better in the areas it is supposed to be better, and by a margin. This area would include shooting down Russian airplanes. Given costs and availability however, the EF is a good plane. For the next couple of years the EF will have by far the more superior anti-air ammunition, namely the IRIS-T and the Meteor. But F22 vs. EF doesn't matter. The more important point is however, that the EF and even more so the F22 outranks the Su27 and the Mig29 very clearly.
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Mar 22, 2014 16:44
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Grouchy Smurf posted:Not to derail the topic any further, but the reason why BelTechExport is "weird" is that they advertise everything on their site. Companies like that basically act as a middleman for goverment surplus sales, I'd bet that nothing they sell is even locally produced. All countries with large unused stockpiles have similar programs. Hell even Sweden sold surplus 40mm WWII Autocannons to a wide group of customers including but not limited to private US gun collectors. Mr. Nice! posted:Camera gets ripped off right about here: It's the same as this: http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article18589188.ab (SWEDISH) It appears the Russians captured the only Sub docked there, one Ukranian was shot afaik.
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Mar 22, 2014 16:45
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Twitter says explosions and gunshots at Belbek. Waiting for conf.
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Mar 22, 2014 16:46
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Corralled press at Belbek.  Last shots of the live feed before it was taken out.  
HUGE PUBES A PLUS fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Mar 22, 2014 |
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Mar 22, 2014 16:54
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Didn't find any confirmation for gunshots or explosions at Belbek but according to EM twitter they're trying to capture another Ukrainian vessel atm.
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Mar 22, 2014 17:11
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:It appears the Russians captured the only Sub docked there, one Ukranian was shot afaik. Man, wikipedia is fast: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_submarine_Zaporizhzhia quote:As of July 2010 Zaporizhzhia was preparing for trials after repairs.[4] All repairs were finished on 17 April 2011.[1] First trial sail was be finished successfully on 18 July 2012.[5] Late June 2013 all long-term maintenance work and its test were completed.[6]. In March 22, 2014, it was reported that the submarine has been taken over by the Russian forces after being surrounded and harassed by Russian Navy ships, demanding its surrender[7]. The commander of the ship reportedly agreed to surrender his ship, then started to flying Russian Navy flag[8]. Although it's now in fact under Russian Navy control, the official ownership of the ship still to be determined by the Ukrainian and Russian navies.
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Mar 22, 2014 17:19
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Here's the moment an APC smashed through the main gate.
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Mar 22, 2014 17:26
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Vitali Klitschko and Andrei Sannikov together at the International Brussels Forum being held this weekend. 
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Mar 22, 2014 17:27
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awesome-express posted:I'm really interested in the long-term economic and political effects on Russia from Putin's little game of Risk. Surely they've effectively shot themselves in the foot here. Poland opened bidding on a missile shield last year, looking to award a contract in ~2015. (Pre-Maidan) They were going to narrow the field of bidders down to 4 in November 2014. They've now accelerated the schedule after Putin's invasion of Crimea. The finalists were announced within the past few days, and are pushing to award a contract within "months" according to the Polish government. It is rare that a defense contract this size is pushed up by such a margin. 
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Mar 22, 2014 17:32
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ayn rand hand job posted:It is rare that a defense contract this size is pushed up by such a margin. Can't exactly blame them though given Putin's gusto about Crimea and Ukrainian bases being seized.
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Mar 22, 2014 17:40
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