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Paper Mac posted:I'm not familiar enough with the literature to say, but I'm married to an immunologist and hang out with folks in the field from time to time and my impression is basically that it's just really difficult to get a proper RCT going because of the way the industry works. My understanding is that the immunologists and epidemiologists at Sanofi sit down and have a look at what flu subtypes were circulating last year and make a model-informed projection as to what subtypes are likely to crop up next year (they need to get their production lines going before flu season starts for obvious reasons). Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't, and the result is that it's really difficult to make year-to-year comparisons, to plan an RCT (expensive and if they got the subtype projection wrong you just flushed that study down the drain), etc. The selection criteria for the Cochrane reviews are pretty stringent- for that one I linked above you'll see they're only looking at RCTs, cohort studies, and case control studies- and so a lot of the literature that gets generated in the normal course of administering these things just doesn't meet those standards. A lot of the quoted 'risks' of vaccines according to the anti-vaxx crowd revolve around the used preservatives and a general misunderstanding of how bioaccumulation works and how the body gets rid of unwanted chemicals. It was almost the entire focal point of the 'Vaccines Cause Autism' crap.
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Mar 26, 2014 04:14
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forgot my pants posted:I got the flu vaccine this year because I was working with immunocompromised children. My girlfriend got very sick with the flu, which was serious enough to cause her to make a trip to the doctor due to respiratory issues. She ended up being in pretty rough shape for two weeks, and had to take a few days off work. I, on the other hand, despite being near her and having every opportunity to catch it from her, developed only a generalized immune response, which consisted of a slightly running nose for 24 hours. I never got sick, and I have a pretty weak immune system. Not to pick on you but this is basically how anti- vaccine people exist, one anecdote means absolutely nothing. I also have to emphasize that your last part is completely impossible for the average person- you need at least a graduate degree in relevant fields to even begin to objectively evaluate the literature on these subjects and unless it's your job there's no way you'd have enough time to do so.
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Mar 26, 2014 04:15
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My experience is that this sort of thing takes root on the backs of some con artist somewhere that wants to sell a miracle cure. (hint: they never actually cure anything) Quackwatch has a great page on it, actually: http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/spotquack.html Actually no, two: http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/signs.html Really, if somebody uses any of the reasoning on those pages to justify something it's more or less mandatory to look at them and say "yup, you're full of poo poo." Generally speaking, though, these are exactly the phrases that all quackery, including anti-vaccination movements, use. It's always a secret they don't want you to know about that they are trying to suppress because money. I won't say that the medical world is bursting at the seams with saints but really, if a "miracle cure" that a mom that just happens to live three houses from me was discovered the medical world would be all over that poo poo.
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Mar 26, 2014 04:16
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CommieGIR posted:A lot of the quoted 'risks' of vaccines according to the anti-vaxx crowd revolve around the used preservatives and a general misunderstanding of how bioaccumulation works and how the body gets rid of unwanted chemicals. For sure, the problems with the flu vax data are mostly unrelated to the common concerns of the anti-vax crowd. They're more typical of the pharmaceutical literature where material conflicts of interest almost invariably result in systematic overstatement of the degree and significance (practical and statistical) of the treatment effect.
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Mar 26, 2014 04:18
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At the Waldorf Elementary School here in Eugene, Oregon, 70% of kids are unvaccinated!
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Mar 26, 2014 04:21
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Really the best the average person can hope to do is observe that the vast majority of papers are published show evidence towards the efficacy of vaccines, much like global warming. Like I said, even the average doctor doesn't have the training to analyze medical studies like some here are suggesting people do.
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Mar 26, 2014 04:23
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enbot posted:Not to pick on you but this is basically how anti- vaccine people exist, one anecdote means absolutely nothing. I also have to emphasize that your last part is completely impossible for the average person- you need at least a graduate degree in relevant fields to even begin to objectively evaluate the literature on these subjects and unless it's your job there's no way you'd have enough time to do so. That's why I said it was anecdotal. But the anecdote fits the data and has a plausible mechanism, so I'm comfortable sharing it. I agree that the last part is impossible for the average person. I certainly couldn't do it properly so I trust the experts. Edit: enbot posted:Really the best the average person can hope to do is observe that the vast majority of papers are published show evidence towards the efficacy of vaccines, much like global warming. Like I said, even the average doctor doesn't have the training to analyze medical studies like some here are suggesting people do. I agree with you.
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Mar 26, 2014 04:28
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enbot posted:Of course it's horrible if it happens to you, but 20 deaths a year is 0.002777777% of the children born per year in Britain. There are numerous diseases and accidental deaths that claim far more lives. Deaths that can be prevented by vaccines are of course completely unnecessary, and we should continue to educate people, but the real reason these movements exist is because the diseases/ conditions people (incorrectly) fear from the vaccines are orders of magnitude more likely than conditions caused by a lack of vaccination. Of course typing 'herd immunity' into Google gets me 'herd immunity myth' and 'herd immunity debunked.' Awesome job anti-vaxxers, go gently caress yourselves!
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Mar 26, 2014 04:41
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Argue posted:I've posted in other threads about how the bishops here in the Philippines have been fighting reproductive health care with a bunch of scientifically refuted claims. We're still working on beating them on that front, but in the meantime, I'm sad to say that the bishops have now set their sights on vaccines. Anti-vaxxers are relatively fringe in this country, but support from the bishops is big news, as the population is predominantly Catholic. Here's the press release on their official site. I'm really pissed because we're already fighting a losing battle about contraceptives and now they're what, trying to spread those efforts thin by requiring everyone to fight this bunk too? And to think that this is on the heels of a recent measles outbreak. I don't know how the Catholic Church works, but can't the Vatican quash this? Vaccines surely aren't one of their bugbears (please tell me they aren't one of their bugbears).
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Mar 26, 2014 05:24
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Peel posted:I don't know how the Catholic Church works, but can't the Vatican quash this? Vaccines surely aren't one of their bugbears (please tell me they aren't one of their bugbears). The last official statement I saw from the Vatican was that Catholics are permitted (possibly even morally obligated) to vaccinate, even using the vaccines developed using cell lines derived from voluntarily aborted foetuses. It is considered imperative, of course, that they write letters and put pressure on the pharmaceutical community to continue trying to develop versions of the vaccines that do not contain those cell lines, but in the meantime they are to use the vaccine because to do otherwise would "put the health of their children and of the population as a whole at risk". http://www.cogforlife.org/vaticanresponse.htm HPV vaccine, on the other hand...that's a whole different kettle of premarital sex-havin' fish, according to the Vatican.
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Mar 26, 2014 05:55
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CommieGIR posted:A lot of the quoted 'risks' of vaccines according to the anti-vaxx crowd revolve around the used preservatives and a general misunderstanding of how bioaccumulation works and how the body gets rid of unwanted chemicals.
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Mar 26, 2014 06:10
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Fionnoula posted:The last official statement I saw from the Vatican was that Catholics are permitted (possibly even morally obligated) to vaccinate, even using the vaccines developed using cell lines derived from voluntarily aborted foetuses. It is considered imperative, of course, that they write letters and put pressure on the pharmaceutical community to continue trying to develop versions of the vaccines that do not contain those cell lines, but in the meantime they are to use the vaccine because to do otherwise would "put the health of their children and of the population as a whole at risk". Oh wow, that's great, thanks. I think I can get someone who matters to see this.
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Mar 26, 2014 06:47
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OneEightHundred posted:Even that's basically irrelevant at this point considering most important vaccines are available in thimerosal-free versions anyway. Not irrelevant since there are chemicals other than Thimerosal (Which yeah, has been removed for like 15 some odd years now) that the movement keep pointing to as dangerous. Which is part of his point. Aluminum is found in vaccines as well but because they don't understand that because something can be toxic, doesn't mean it will be just by touching a human. Simply feeding a baby normally for a month puts a lot more aluminum into the child than all the vaccines combined. Lead Psychiatry fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Mar 26, 2014 |
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Mar 26, 2014 07:05
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OneEightHundred posted:Even that's basically irrelevant at this point considering most important vaccines are available in thimerosal-free versions anyway. But MERCURY and ALUMINIUM and FORMALDEHYDE  These people bitch about chemicals they know nothing about beyond the fact that it sounds 'unnatural', yet at the same time they tell you to eat fresh fruits which contain more of the very chemicals they spread fears about.
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Mar 26, 2014 15:18
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Lead Psychiatry posted:Not irrelevant since there are chemicals other than Thimerosal (Which yeah, has been removed for like 15 some odd years now)... Officially removed from pediatric preparations in 2001, (that's the only thing that makes them "pediatric") not due to any actual evidence of harm (to the contrary, there was no evidence of any harm.) It was removed to assuage the fear mongers freaking out about mercury and to stem the tide of non-vaccinated children. We see how well that worked. Many of the anti-vaccers still think there's mercury in all vaccines. Dumb. Almost as bad are the "we're going to spread out the 'toxins' and vaccinate on our own schedule" crowd. The problem with that is, the vaccine schedule doctors follow is determined to offer the most immunity as quick as safely possible. So if you deviate from that, your child is at risk for contracting things unnecessarily because you haven't gotten them their shots on time, and your child is a Typhoid Mary risk to other tiny infants they may be around (can't vaccinate for pertussis until 3 months of age, for example) or other kids who are missing vaccinations due to legitimate medical issues such as being immune-compromised. Dumb. My children are not allowed around children who aren't vaccinated. That's an adult friendship-ender for me. The pediatric practice we go to will not see unvaccinated children, or indulge parent's own schedules for shots--their public statement declares it unethical and a violation of "first do no harm". I wish there were no exemptions for public schools and vaccinations. I don't care if you do have a bonafide religious issue with it--homeschool, or go private, or something. Your religious liberty ends where it fucks around with public health--of children no less! I hate anti-vaccers. I'd lump them in with Young Earth Creationists, but in the venn diagram of stupid, I think the overlap is relatively small. The anti-vacc crowd is more the herbal-supplements-will-cure-my-cancer, middle class, Suburban driving, the-interwebs-learns-me-gud, soccer mom crowd. My mom had rubella (German measles) and mumps back to back, back in the 50's, and was sick in bed for two months. She had permanent hearing loss due to the fevers. She still tells me almost every time my kids go in for a checkup to make sure they're current on their shots (even though she knows they are.) Those diseases are not to be hosed around with. Back in the early 90's, when I was a teenager, (  ) I had chickenpox so bad I had to be hospitalized for a couple days, and miss school for a month. I'm super happy my kids were able to be vaccinated against chickenpox now.
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Mar 26, 2014 15:43
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AlistairCookie posted:My mom had rubella (German measles) and mumps back to back, back in the 50's, and was sick in bed for two months. She had permanent hearing loss due to the fevers. She still tells me almost every time my kids go in for a checkup to make sure they're current on their shots (even though she knows they are.) Those diseases are not to be hosed around with. Back in the early 90's, when I was a teenager, ( I had the particular luck to catch chickenpox just before (like, less than a year) the vaccine for it became available. My cousin had caught it and so, as you did back before vaccination, my parents made sure my brother and I were exposed, on the theory that since everyone gets it sooner or later, it's better to have at as a child since adults have much worse times with it and sometimes even die. Wasn't particularly bad as things go, I think I missed a week or two of school and was itchy as hell. Now, of course, I'm hoping I don't get shingles before I reach the age where I can get vaccinated for that (late fifties, if I remember right).
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Mar 26, 2014 16:12
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The issue for me is the level of toxic substances they put in the vaccines. I only shop at organic co-ops, store everything in glass bottles instead of plastic, and don't allow any unnatural cleaning products into my house, so why would I pump my kids full of inorganic substances? The main problem is that these chemicals don't have a long track record. Every few years we learn that something was bad, and they've made a "better" vaccine. I understand that some kids might get sick and maybe even die due to a lack of herd immunity, but how many are having mental issues from unregulated substances we're injecting into them? There are lots of mysterious deaths in childhood that have no answer, and vaccines can't be ruled out. Asking me to choose between vaccinating my kids and having other kids die is like asking me to vote for Bush or Kerry. I simply won't (I vote Green Party). I think there is a large market out there for organic vaccines. I would definitely give my kids something to help them fight infections and diseases, but I will not do so until I am 100% sure it's safe. Can't somebody make vaccines fresh, without the need for preservatives? Even if they're ten times as expensive I'd use them. I want my kids to be safe, but right now neither option is going to achieve that.
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Mar 26, 2014 16:28
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Cache Cab posted:The issue for me is the level of toxic substances they put in the vaccines.   There is no link to 'mental issues' from 'unregulated substances in vaccines'. You need to step away from the 'Organic' bullshit. Vaccinate your kids.
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Mar 26, 2014 16:31
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King of Hamas posted:
I might be a page late to the discussion, but the study NVIC.org is referencing here has this to say: http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.1000258 Danuta M. Skowronski et. all posted:Conclusions They did find a correlation, but agree that additional study is needed. The possibility of self-selection bias is completely ignored in NVIC's summary of the study's results. People who are more likely to contract the flu are naturally more likely to seek out the flu vaccine. If the previous year's vaccine had no effect whatsoever, we'd still expect to a difference because fundamentally we're studying two separate populations. Additionally, increasing risk by 1.4-2.5 times seems like a big deal, but it's really a case of lying with numbers. If the risk chance small to begin with, doubling it is still negligible in the grand scheme of things. So the studies here DO speak for themselves, but NVIC.org sure as hell doesn't speak for them.
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Mar 26, 2014 16:34
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Cache Cab posted:The issue for me is the level of toxic substances they put in the vaccines. I only shop at organic co-ops, store everything in glass bottles instead of plastic, and don't allow any unnatural cleaning products into my house, so why would I pump my kids full of inorganic substances? By not choosing one way or the other you've already made a choice that kids that cannot get vaccinations for legitimate medical reasons will die due to the lack of herd immunity. You can't simply decide to not make a choice. If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.
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Mar 26, 2014 16:37
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Cache Cab posted:The issue for me is the level of toxic substances they put in the vaccines. I only shop at organic co-ops, store everything in glass bottles instead of plastic, and don't allow any unnatural cleaning products into my house, so why would I pump my kids full of inorganic substances? Aluminum, formaldehyde, human serum albumin, gelatin, antibiotics and yeast proteins. There is more aluminum in one day's worth of baby formula, more formaldehyde occurring naturally in the child's body, and allergic reactions to gelatin and antibiotics are incredibly uncommon and not remotely as dangerous as failing to vaccinate your child. quote:The main problem is that these chemicals don't have a long track record. Demonstrably wrong. quote:I understand that some kids might get sick and maybe even die due to a lack of herd immunity, but how many are having mental issues from unregulated substances we're injecting into them? Because no one has ever inquired into the effects of trace aluminum on pediatric neurological development. quote:There are lots of mysterious deaths in childhood that have no answer, and vaccines can't be ruled out. No. Just…no. quote:I want my kids to be safe, but right now neither option is going to achieve that. You are operating under faulty assumptions, and using bad information to reach medically-dangerous conclusions. You are the problem, educate yourself instead of talking about things that are "toxic" and "inorganic". Paracelsus knew five hundred years ago that all substances are poison at a certain dose, do you think we understand so little about what we use to protect children in the 21st century?
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Mar 26, 2014 16:38
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Are there people seriously worried about aluminium? The stuff is everywhere and in everything. I've never heard of people being in arms about cans and such.
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Mar 26, 2014 16:44
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:Are there people seriously worried about aluminium? The stuff is everywhere and in everything. I've never heard of people being in arms about cans and such. Because people think metal is atomically inert, completely ignoring the fact that the metal atoms exist in their food from being stored in a can.
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Mar 26, 2014 16:45
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Cache Cab posted:The issue for me is the level of toxic substances they put in the vaccines. I only shop at organic co-ops, store everything in glass bottles instead of plastic, and don't allow any unnatural cleaning products into my house, so why would I pump my kids full of inorganic substances? Think about the gamble you're making based on your beliefs, too. You believe something false (that vaccines cause mental disorders), but you think that avoiding, say, autism (which, again, vaccines don't cause) is more important than preventing easily preventable illness. That strikes me as insane: I'd rather be autistic than catch polio or measles. And there's this: childhood mortality rates have been dropping in the western world for a long-rear end time now, and since we're vaccinating more and more, if vaccines were a 'mysterious cause' of death, we'd not see the drop in childhood mortality rates, but rather an increase. Come on, use your brain and vaccinate your kids. Also, nothing is 100% safe. That's a pipe dream. Ghost of Reagan Past fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Mar 26, 2014 |
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Mar 26, 2014 16:47
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And cookware, deodorant, and a million other things. Aluminium is one of the backbone materials of our society. I guess they all fall under the same logic of it's alright in large chunks outside, but once in me as atoms crap. Still, I didn't know that people actually had concerns about it.
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Mar 26, 2014 16:49
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:And cookware, deodorant, and a million other things. Aluminium is one of the backbone materials of our society. I guess they all fall under the same logic of it's alright in large chunks outside, but once in me as atoms crap. Still, I didn't know that people actually had concerns about it. Not deodorant, anti-perspirant. The aluminum compound is, I believe, what inhibits sweating. I don't really care about the aluminum, but I use only normal deodorant because I figure if my body feels it needs to sweat, I should let it go ahead and bathe/launder my clothes to deal with it. Also, it didn't seem to work very well anyway.
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Mar 26, 2014 17:02
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:By not choosing one way or the other you've already made a choice that kids that cannot get vaccinations for legitimate medical reasons will die due to the lack of herd immunity. You can't simply decide to not make a choice. If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice. Way to Rush into that one. Cache Cab posted:The issue for me is the level of toxic substances they put in the vaccines. I only shop at organic co-ops, store everything in glass bottles instead of plastic, and don't allow any unnatural cleaning products into my house, so why would I pump my kids full of inorganic substances? There is so much wrong with this it's hard to choose where to begin, but just as a start: since you (incorrectly) think that "these chemicals don't have a long track record," how long would their demonstrably safe use need to be for that track record to satisfy you?
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Mar 26, 2014 17:09
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:And cookware, deodorant, and a million other things. Aluminium is one of the backbone materials of our society. I guess they all fall under the same logic of it's alright in large chunks outside, but once in me as atoms crap. Still, I didn't know that people actually had concerns about it. Yeah aluminum is pretty damned awesome for how much can be done with it and how safely. You have to practically eat half a kilogram of raw aluminum all at once to actually be hurt by it. I think the thing that gets people freaked out is that it has zero biological use so it's "unnatural" and "doesn't belong in the body" or some such nonsense. Which is absurd, it's extremely non-reactive and non-toxic so long as you aren't deliberately eating huge chunks of the stuff. If it weren't so drat safe we wouldn't make things like, you know, aluminum cans. Alumina is also one of the reasons that clay works and why pottery exists and people have been using ceramics for thousands of years. This whole  BUT ALUMINUM crap is utter nonsense. poo poo is everywhere and if it actually were that toxic we wouldn't use so much of it.
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Mar 26, 2014 17:17
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The-Mole posted:At the Waldorf Elementary School here in Eugene, Oregon, 70% of kids are unvaccinated! The solution to this has been to end any and all vaccine exemptions unless determined to be medically necessary by a physician. You're not legally allowed to let your diabetic child die because you believe in prayer over insulin, you shouldn't be allowed to deprive your children of potentially life saving vaccines because Dr. Oz said not to. Oregon recently instituted new policies requiring parents to actually visit a pediatrician before getting a vaccine exemption. The policies just got put in place this month so we won't know how effective they are. http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2014/02/oregon_vaccination_rate_may_in.html
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Mar 26, 2014 17:19
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Cache Cab posted:I understand that some kids might get sick and maybe even die due to a lack of herd immunity, but how many are having mental issues from unregulated substances we're injecting into them? There are lots of mysterious deaths in childhood that have no answer, and vaccines can't be ruled out. Asking me to choose between vaccinating my kids and having other kids die is like asking me to vote for Bush or Kerry. I simply won't (I vote Green Party). Well for one, no kid has had mental disorders from vaccines. For another there is no 'green party' here, the choice is vaccinate your kid or let them die/make other kids die, you have to pick one of those, there's no hidden third option that THE MAN is hiding from you, vaccines or your kid dies of fuckin whooping cough or whatever 19th century disease people like you are bringing back like you're the VH1 of medical crisis.
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Mar 26, 2014 17:34
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Rhandhali posted:You're not legally allowed to let your diabetic child die because you believe in prayer over insulin, you shouldn't be allowed to deprive your children of potentially life saving vaccines because Dr. Oz said not to. You might want to check on that. We've been allowing Christian Scientists to kill their children over BS religious rules for awhile now. The US in particular seems more than willing to kill children because of their parent's outmoded thoughts, which is somewhat ironic considering how regressively anti-abortion we tend to be.
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Mar 26, 2014 17:37
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Cache Cab posted:I understand that some kids might get sick and maybe even die due to a lack of herd immunity, but how many are having mental issues from unregulated substances we're injecting into them?
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Mar 26, 2014 17:39
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What sort of background and experience do you have in the biological or medical sciences? What are you defining as "unnatural" and "inorganic"?
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Mar 26, 2014 17:43
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Solkanar512 posted:What sort of background and experience do you have in the biological or medical sciences? As a parent I...
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Mar 26, 2014 17:44
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rkajdi posted:You might want to check on that. We've been allowing Christian Scientists to kill their children over BS religious rules for awhile now. The US in particular seems more than willing to kill children because of their parent's outmoded thoughts, which is somewhat ironic considering how regressively anti-abortion we tend to be. God's choir needed another angel 
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Mar 26, 2014 17:45
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SedanChair posted:God's choir needed another angel 'S/He's in a better place' 
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Mar 26, 2014 17:48
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rkajdi posted:You might want to check on that. We've been allowing Christian Scientists to kill their children over BS religious rules for awhile now. The US in particular seems more than willing to kill children because of their parent's outmoded thoughts, which is somewhat ironic considering how regressively anti-abortion we tend to be. It's getting a little better; there have been some criminal convictions for this sort of gross negligence. Wisconsin court upheld the conviction of parents who let their child die from lack of insulin. This article by Harriet Hall has a good summary of a few cases and it's not as clear cut as "Sky wizard said no medicine" being carte blanche for disposing of your offspring. Parents can and do face criminal convictions for murdering their children though sentences range all the way from gross negligence and 90 days to life in prison. One thing that I didn't realize and frankly pisses me off beyond reason is the the ACA requires insurers cover bullshit treatments like prayer.
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Mar 26, 2014 17:51
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Tatum Girlparts posted:As a parent I...  More seriously, in my neck of the woods, all the anti-vaxxers sound like Cashe Cab here. They're anti-anything they find "unnatural" or "inorganic" (how's your anemia coming along?), and tend towards the anti-corporate as well. While the latter isn't so bad, they seem to believe that every scientist and doctor out there is trying to make a buck off of killing people while at the same time refusing to support increases to publicly funded scientific research organizations like the NIH, CDC, NAS and NASA. But if someone out there wants to talk about how raspberry leaf tea will strengthen the uterus for labor, they lap it up. I know there are a lot of libertarian folks out there who don't want anyone to tell them what to do, I more frequently see this attitude among the political left.
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Mar 26, 2014 17:52
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Rhandhali posted:Oregon recently instituted new policies requiring parents to actually visit a pediatrician before getting a vaccine exemption. The policies just got put in place this month so we won't know how effective they are. The cynic in me expects that a market for exemption-friendly doctors is just going to pop up similar to what you see for medical marijuana, negating some of the potential impact. This is throwing up to many flags for me to believe it's real. B- But I see you've earned yourself a new title, so victory achieved nonetheless.
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Mar 26, 2014 17:54
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The thing that really gets me about the whole thing is that many people fail to realize the difference between "making choices for yourself" and "making choices for others." If you believe medicine is wrong than you are perfectly well within your rights to refuse treatments offered to you. What you cannot do is prevent others from getting treatment based on your beliefs, including your own drat children. Same goes for vaccination; refusing to vaccinate actually harms others. This sudden revival of horrifying diseases from the past is a direct result of anti-vaccination movements. I can understand things like "we probably over prescribe antibiotics, let's cut back a bit" but "let's just chuck all medicine away for ever and go back to sucking on plants for everything" is insane.
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Mar 26, 2014 17:56
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