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Xenomrph posted:I didn't like the first Raid movie much - how similar is the action in the sequel to the action in the first one? Just to offer a contrary opinion, I thought that this was part of why the first film felt so gritty and brutal compared to other martial arts films I've seen - because rather than effortlessly dispatching hordes of useless peons, Rama has to put real effort into finishing every single guy he goes up against. You can argue endlessly about realism and how many punches it should take to keep someone down, but I felt that the result was to make the action much more threatening for Rama, since he was on more of a level playing field with the people he was fighting. Basically, he came across as a badass, but not Superman. Having said that, I agree that a lot of the fights felt too long, though I'm sure plenty of people wouldn't have had a problem with it. Gato fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Mar 30, 2014 |
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Mar 30, 2014 21:32
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Ogantai posted:Just got back from the theater, and I have to say it was loving awesome. Even more brutal than the first. What the hell was up with that snow scene though? And where are they finding these awesome apartments? Rama is supposed to be clean but there's no way he's affording a place like that in Jakarta unless he's on the take. The snow scene was weird because Wasn't the whole thing supposed to be a setup for Mad Dog to be the fall guy? The whole setup confused me either way. Also am I tripping or did that whole thing look greenscreened. As for Rama's place I imagine it was the same as the original right? Probably Gareth Evans used his own place or called in a favor from a well to do local/expat in order to save money. I suppose it helps contrast between the shittiness of the complex from 1
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Mar 30, 2014 23:12
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Payndz posted:I had much the same feelings to the first film as Xeno; while the cops were gunfighting it was very exciting and intense, then once it turned into a series of martial arts brawls where characters were having their heads repeatedly kicked and smashed against concrete without a care, it got a bit boring. I don't think martial arts movies are for you. This resilience is kind of a hallmark of martial arts in general (especially after Jackie Chan made his mark) and South East Asian movies in particular (Ong Bak makes the Raid look like everyone's made of paper mache) It is a nice reversal that while the problem of Thai action cinema (the other emergent national cinema in martial arts) was that each one was progressively sillier with less and less plot (until we got to "The Protector 2, which was just depressing) Raid 2 seems to have too much of it. It felt almost Kitano esque how it kept getting distracted with increasingly detailed sub plots. "Look, I know you want to get back to Rama's investigation, but I've got a really sad hitman story to show you." Also, yeah, the fight scenes were crazy. I counted at least 12 separate major action scenes. Impressively, they're all distinct in my head. With each one I was thinking "Wow, that was the best one, obviously, they won't top that." Then ten minutes later they would. I've realised I have no idea which is my favourite. quote:Rama is supposed to be clean but there's no way he's affording a place like that in Jakarta unless he's on the take. Indonesia, like a lot of countries in the world, has a massive gap between the middle and working class. You can actually see the physical difference between the tall, pale middle class and the small, dark, wirey working class (think the difference between Andy and Mad Dog in the first movie) And so while there's slums and shanty towns, there's also plenty of really nice houses and apartments. That was an interesting component of the first movie: the class difference between Rama and the occupants of the block (which makes the scene where the man hides him more important) Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Mar 30, 2014 |
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Mar 30, 2014 23:47
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I was wondering about the car assault where one or more of the attackers turns out out to be cops. He asks what that was about and the guy said it was some territorial thing. I know corrupt cops aren't exactly news but was there some conclusion supposed to be drawn?
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Mar 30, 2014 23:56
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Alan Smithee posted:I was wondering about the car assault where one or more of the attackers turns out out to be cops. He asks what that was about and the guy said it was some territorial thing. I know corrupt cops aren't exactly news but was there some conclusion supposed to be drawn? It's the same thing it always means in an action movie or gangster movie: the hero can't trust anyone. There was also the character point that he realised how much he's changed. If you watch the scene again, watch how brutally he dispatches everyone, not just the guy who's face he burns off. Later on, in the loading dock, he beats everyone up, but doesn't kill anyone. The idea being he's reclaiming his identity as someone who does good, who isn't a killer by nature.
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Mar 31, 2014 00:10
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Snowman_McK posted:It's the same thing it always means in an action movie or gangster movie: the hero can't trust anyone. There was also the character point that he realised how much he's changed. If you watch the scene again, watch how brutally he dispatches everyone, not just the guy who's face he burns off. Later on, in the loading dock, he beats everyone up, but doesn't kill anyone. The idea being he's reclaiming his identity as someone who does good, who isn't a killer by nature. Honestly I didn't get that at all from the last part especially considering he straight up embeds a baseball bat into a dudes face and everything that follows
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Mar 31, 2014 00:13
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Alan Smithee posted:Honestly I didn't get that at all from the last part especially True. He also essentially guts two knife guy. Hence the finality of "I'm done" you can't have halfway measures. You can try to reclaim your honour/soul/role as a lawful man, and do it clean, but it always ends up messy. That's why two of his last kills in the movie fall against him as if in embrace, because that's his kin now, that's who he's bonded to.
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Mar 31, 2014 00:48
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Alan Smithee posted:I was wondering about the car assault where one or more of the attackers turns out out to be cops. He asks what that was about and the guy said it was some territorial thing. I know corrupt cops aren't exactly news but was there some conclusion supposed to be drawn? Ooh, I know this one. While The Raid was mostly about class consciousness and illusory social mobility, and The Raid 2 still has a bit of that (see Snowman's first post about social classes in Jakarta), it's more about the fickle nature of identity. This is where I honestly agree with you a lot more than I do with Snowman - so much in this film is about breaking down the theoretically clear distinctions between "cop" and "criminal". The most obvious applications of this are in the overall structure of the plot: honest cop going undercover, posing as a criminal in order to root out corrupt cops (criminals posing as cops). Then you've got the character of Eka, who insists as he's dying that he never stopped being a cop, never started being a criminal. Bunawar dismissively disagrees, saying Eka went rogue long ago. Wholly conflicting accounts of this man's life and identity, both of them largely self-serving, and Rama left with no ability to distinguish. And honestly, what does it matter to him, at least directly? Let's talk about a very important scene early on, though, the prison yard melee. The wet mud makes for a fascinating visual backdrop, given that at the start of the scene we have very clearly delineated groups of combatants in the prisoners and the guards. But as they wade into the yard, the guards start to lose their talismans of guard-ness. Black uniforms get covered in mud just like the lighter clothes of the prisoners. Helmets get torn off. Batons get taken from guards, and in that small way you start to have prisoners acquiring the attributes of the guards. By the end of the scene, though, it's impossible to distinguish between one faction of prisoners, another faction of prisoners, and the guards. This is why it's important that Rama kills the gently caress out of a dude who turns out to be a cop. It's one thing for the cops to be evil, to be obviously working with the crime families, to roll up to Rama and try to arrest him on false pretenses and beat him down for resisting. It's entirely another, however, when Rama has every reason to understand this guy as a criminal, then he kills him like a criminal, then he finds out he's a cop. Or, sorta. To quote Goto, "They're not cops anymore." This is why it's so important for Rama to flatly refuse the Goto family's job offer at the end. He's pretty much hit rock bottom as far as being indistinguishable from a criminal himself, and this is where it starts to matter indirectly that it was impossible to tell whether Eka was a cop or a criminal. If Rama dies in the restaurant, if the Goto family say "Welp, sorry the job offer didn't work out" and gun him down, will anyone remember him as a cop, or will Bunawar disavow him and everyone will just remember him as some mob enforcer who went hard and revenge-killed a couple dozen dudes when they double-crossed him? Dead Rama votes, "I'm a cop". Kinda gets outvoted, though. I'm actually really glad that they didn't give him a lot of heavy-handed "what am I becoming?" angst, but showed it in more indirect ways like the above. Another fun fact: the final fight in The Raid was Rama and his brother Andi against Mad Dog. This time, the penultimate fight is Rama against the brother-sister team of Baseball Bat Man and Hammer Girl. It's all very simple.
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Mar 31, 2014 00:52
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Jonny Angel posted:Ooh, I know this one. I agree with every word of this. Just substitute "brutality" for "criminality" and you've got exactly what I was trying to say. I just saw the crisis of identity being that between a clean and dirty war rather than cop and criminal. In the pornographer's place, he doesn't actually kill anyone directly. He hits the guy who ends up firing the shotgun, he throws another guy into a wall and chases down the boss. He stops short of actually killing him though. Hence that look of regret when he sees the body thrown into the fishpond. Later on he kills several of those attackers without a moment's hesitation.
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Mar 31, 2014 01:10
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Snowman_McK posted:Just substitute "brutality" for "criminality" and you've got exactly what I was trying to say. Good point! I think the right way to look at it is that "criminality" is what the characters, themselves, Rama and my boy Eka are consciously concerned with, while the film around them is repeatedly pointing out that cop/criminal was a false dichotomy in the first place. EDIT: No seriously guys who the gently caress is the guy between Eka and Rama on the cast poster, it's really been bugging me. Jenny Angel fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Mar 31, 2014 |
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Mar 31, 2014 01:16
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Jonny Angel posted:Good point! I think the right way to look at it is that "criminality" is what the characters, themselves, Rama and my boy Eka are consciously concerned with, while the film around them is repeatedly pointing out that cop/criminal was a false dichotomy in the first place. Could it be the last guy executed via exacto-knife? The leader of the prison gang? The only other guy I can think of in the movie who looked like that was the guy baseball bat boy killed alongside the junkie. I'm going to rewatch it this Friday with a different group of friends. Most likely it was a major cast member who ended up having their part largely cut.
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Mar 31, 2014 03:22
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Edit-- my mistake
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Mar 31, 2014 04:28
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Jonny Angel posted:Ooh, I know this one. drat, that mud symbolism was so obvious and I didn't catch it. It was pretty clear they were going for that staring at the abyss thing, though I think the problem is a lot of people's motivations get lost in the weird plot webbing. By the third act I know someone else said he didn't understand why Rama was beating up these dudes in the restaurant and I kinda have to wonder the same. In the first Raid he had to fight these guys because it meant getting home to see his family or dying in this lovely place and nobody knowing what happened to him. In this you have to wonder why he's putting it all on the line just to get even with Uco and half Arab guy, they weren't direct threats to his family, and once he got clear of their henchmen it made no sense to put himself in danger again.
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Mar 31, 2014 05:08
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To some extent Rama is motivated by the consequences of the opening scene. But I think a large part as well is wanting to see this all through on his terms, with his methods. Whenever he speaks to Bunawar, the latter gets very dismissive, talking about how of course Rama's safe (I think at one point he specifically reassures him "Your identity is safe", which, y'know, themes), talking about how staying the course is necessary and Bunawar knows best about how to bring these corrupt cops in. And Rama feels the frustration of his initially planned method not being viable (Andi's box of tapes), and Bunawar's method also fairly obviously not amounting to poo poo by this point. So if he tries to wash his hands of the situation, he understands that the currently available methods of addressing Jakartan organized crime are not going to amount to poo poo when anyone else continues trying them. So okay, how does Rama solve an impossible problem? He demonstrates his preferred method early on, when he's in prison. Draws a chalk outline of a human figure on a prison wall. Converts the prison wall into something defeatable, something specifically punchable. Proceeds to punch a prison wall so hard it bleeds. Essentially, a combination of a sunk cost mentality, a thread connecting him back to motivation at the start of the film of "I want to clean Jakarta up", and his supreme talent at punching people.
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Mar 31, 2014 05:25
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Snowman_McK posted:Indonesia, like a lot of countries in the world, has a massive gap between the middle and working class. You can actually see the physical difference between the tall, pale middle class and the small, dark, wirey working class (think the difference between Andy and Mad Dog in the first movie) And so while there's slums and shanty towns, there's also plenty of really nice houses and apartments. That was an interesting component of the first movie: the class difference between Rama and the occupants of the block (which makes the scene where the man hides him more important) Alan Smithee posted:The snow scene was weird because Wasn't the whole thing supposed to be a setup for Mad Dog to be the fall guy? The whole setup confused me either way. Also am I tripping or did that whole thing look greenscreened. As for Rama's place I imagine it was the same as the original right? Probably Gareth Evans used his own place or called in a favor from a well to do local/expat in order to save money. I suppose it helps contrast between the shittiness of the complex from 1 Ogantai fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Mar 31, 2014 |
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Mar 31, 2014 08:37
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Snowman_McK posted:I don't think martial arts movies are for you. This resilience is kind of a hallmark of martial arts in general (especially after Jackie Chan made his mark) and South East Asian movies in particular (Ong Bak makes the Raid look like everyone's made of paper mache)
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Mar 31, 2014 09:17
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Ogantai posted:Err, I think you're overlooking what I was getting at. Yes, Indonesia has massive class, ethnic, and religious conflict. What I'm pointing out is that the police (at least the clean ones) are not part of that upper class and there's no way an honest one could afford a place like that on his salary, especially with Jakarta real estate prices. (One of my sisters-in-law just put a down-payment on an investment property there (edit: isn't nearly as nice as Rama's) and paid what would probably be many multiples of a cop's annual salary.) It's the dad's place then. It's not that much of a stretch. quote:There's a difference between Jackie Chan's films and The Raid, though. Jackie gets bloodied and bruised, but I could always suspend my disbelief enough to say "Well yeah, he could potentially survive all that. Just about." The Raid was so much more brutal (especially after the gunfight scenes, which established the lethality of the situation) that I couldn't give it the same leeway; the characters should have been concussed/unconscious/dead with pulped skulls way before the end. Could you cite anything in particular that bothered you in either movie? Because the only guys I remember taking heaps of punishment are Rama (who's the hero) Mad Dog (and his brother in the second film, Not-Mad-Dog) and Cecep Arif Rahman's assassin character in the second one. I'd just be surprised if there wasn't a scene where Jackie Chan took worse.
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Mar 31, 2014 12:28
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Incredible, my entire theater was going bonkers during the fight scenes, specifically the mini boss ones near the end. That said, man was there a lot of fat to be trimmed. edit: Minor thing: How lovely must it be for Bejo's henchman, the one who was int he prison and who was last to be executed. He just sat there and took it. Boosh! fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Mar 31, 2014 |
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Mar 31, 2014 18:03
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Ogantai posted:Err, I think you're overlooking what I was getting at. Yes, Indonesia has massive class, ethnic, and religious conflict. What I'm pointing out is that the police (at least the clean ones) are not part of that upper class and there's no way an honest one could afford a place like that on his salary, especially with Jakarta real estate prices. (One of my sisters-in-law just put a down-payment on an investment property there (edit: isn't nearly as nice as Rama's) and paid what would probably be many multiples of a cop's annual salary.) Which apartment are you talking about? I don't remember really even seeing Rama's place, only the place that Bangun set him up with as reward for saving Uco and working for him, which was obviously very nice.
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Mar 31, 2014 22:27
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Does anyone know the background of the kitchen fight guy? I know Mad Dog was one of the Silat masters right? Was wondering about that guy Wandle Cax posted:Which apartment are you talking about? I don't remember really even seeing Rama's place, only the place that Bangun set him up with as reward for saving Uco and working for him, which was obviously very nice. I think he means the one him and his wife live in and yeah it does look kinda nice for an apartment in a big SE Asian city
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Mar 31, 2014 22:38
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Alan Smithee posted:Does anyone know the background of the kitchen fight guy? I know Mad Dog was one of the Silat masters right? Was wondering about that guy If you're referring to the guy that played him, he's a Silat master and the guy who introduced Evans and Uwais.
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Apr 1, 2014 00:08
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Boosh! posted:Incredible, my entire theater was going bonkers during the fight scenes, specifically the mini boss ones near the end. That said, man was there a lot of fat to be trimmed. Yeah, my theater went nuts after the car chase and the bloody kitchen fight at the end got a standing ovation. Never seen people get up and clap while the movie's still going. Pretty crazy. Also yeah, Bejo's henchman didn't say one word and just took it. I assume he was in on it and accepted his death as part of Bejo's Grand scheme? Wazzit fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Apr 1, 2014 |
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Apr 1, 2014 03:20
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Wandle Cax posted:Which apartment are you talking about? I don't remember really even seeing Rama's place, only the place that Bangun set him up with as reward for saving Uco and working for him, which was obviously very nice.
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Apr 1, 2014 07:42
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First off, there's a car chase in this movie that's better than movies that are made just for car chases. Secondly what The Raid movies do well are the smaller-scale fights. The Rama vs all fights are still fun to watch but the movies really shines in the 2v1 and 1v1 segments. The Kitano-esque gangster plot (as a previous poster puts it) serves well to inject personality and character into the villains and I think the Raid 2 is way better for it. Gareth Evans is really good at bringing people, their emotions, and motivations into the smaller fights. It's not just 2 people dancing around choreographed. It's 2 people who really want to kill each other along with the changing and escalating emotional nature of it. This aspect is top notch in Berandal and precisely because there's a "plot" this time. tl:dr there's something under the surface of fightan this time. I think it made Raid 2 way better than 1. HKS fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 00:41
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Ah yes, the fight with hammer girl, Baseball Bat Guy and guy he fought after those two were made so much better because of of all the emotion and motivation in those fights, like...um...
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Apr 2, 2014 01:04
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Well there are 3 kinds of fighting enjoyment in the movie. Rama vs all which you appreciate for the intricacy and the willingness for Indonesian stuntmen to get hurt, it feels like they are ecstatic to die on screen. The early HK movies and early Thai movies felt like this too. The Rama vs side boss which is because of their unique fighting styles, and Rama vs Boss which is the group improved by some plot. Anyways it hyped me up. Go watch it if you're on the fence and liked the first! There's a real difference for me of Rama vs Knives at the end of The Raid 2, and say Liam Neeson vs Knife at the end of Taken. It's not like either one had "better action" than the previous action in their perspective movies. Maybe it's not the plot that's making the difference, but there is a huge difference of how "the final encounter" felt to me. I watch a lot of fightan movies and most of the time getting through the last baddie is a chore but it didn't feel that way at all in Berandal. That's one reason why I think it's so good HKS fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 01:43
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axleblaze posted:Ah yes, the fight with hammer girl, Baseball Bat Guy and guy he fought after those two were made so much better because of of all the emotion and motivation in those fights, like...um... You get the sense of their bond to each other, of their status as outcasts in a society that doesn't have a lot of room for outcasts. It's just little moments that give the fight a narrative. It's the same sort of little touches that Indiana Jones has, how he gets off the flying wing and puts his hands up with an exhausted resignation. it's as opposed to something like the matrix reloaded (which isn't alone in this, just the worst offender) where the fights are completely divorced from any narrative or character.
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Apr 2, 2014 02:22
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axleblaze posted:Ah yes, the fight with hammer girl, Baseball Bat Guy and guy he fought after those two were made so much better because of of all the emotion and motivation in those fights, like...um... Rama's motivation being the entire plot up to that point I guess. But who cares, those fights were fantastic. If you don't appreciate those scenes you don't like action/martial arts movies.
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Apr 2, 2014 11:54
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axleblaze posted:Ah yes, the fight with hammer girl, Baseball Bat Guy and guy he fought after those two were made so much better because of of all the emotion and motivation in those fights, like...um... Ooh, I know this one. Well, the first one at least. Wikipedia tells me that HG and BBM are siblings, but they could have just as easily been a romantic couple or just BFFs. Point is, they're definitely very close, and they definitely share a mindset. Mad Dog did a great job of articulating it in the first film, but it's less of a grand statement here and more that they just seem bored when not fighting. HG spins a coin idly while sitting around waiting for murder instructions to come in. Both of them are kept off-screen during Bejo, Uco, and Reza's meeting until they get the order to go kill Rama - it's like they're in stasis, in this eternal state of leaning quietly against a bar, until they get permission to fight. Fighting is their fun. Fighting is supposed to be their fun. That's the recurring thread throughout their fight, the idea that there's a "supposed to be" and that Rama very sharply deviates from it. There's three lines of dialogue in the whole fight, each spoken by BBM. Let's take a look at each: - "Give me the ball" We've seen him say this before, and we get the impression that he likes pulling this bit on all his targets. It's a script, a little bit more fun he has with each mission. He's very much signaling that this fight is business as usual to him. In fact... - "As usual", he signs to HG. But from the get-go, it's not as usual. The narrative instinct with a fight like this is to have Rama start out at a disadvantage, and to eventually pull out some awesome plays that let him win. But he's just kicking their asses from the start. A notable moment is when HG nearly hammers BBM in the face and barely stops herself - this is obviously not something they're at all used to. This is not "a fight". - "No!" Usually, if you say that to someone who's about to kill your loved one, and then they kill your loved one, you're the hero and you're supposed to win the fight now and get vengeance. Supposed to. It's a fantastic scene and definitely did a good job of making me feel a bit of sympathy for a pair of remorseless killers with minimal dialogue. people rag on this movie for not having as incredible of an economy of narrative as the first, but there's definitely a lot that it still accomplishes mad efficiently.
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Apr 2, 2014 20:54
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Jonny Angel posted:Ooh, I know this one. Well, the first one at least. Along the same lines, there was an audible "oh" from the audience when her scarred eye was revealed, accompanied by a loss of comfort for the audience. She'd stopped being a faceless killer. It's like that weird moment when you find out Osama Bin Laden loved volleyball and hated too much ice in his drink. Returning to the duality you mentioned above for a moment, Not-Mad-Dog also represents the clean/dirty dynamic. There's the more obvious one, where he's sending money to his family that he's gained by killing people, but it's also represented in his choreography. When he kills the guy with the machete, he handles the bodyguards with his off hand only, keeping his machete out of the fray. He's only there to kill one man. No point killing the rest. The lie of the clean war is still there, though. He's ripping people's hamstrings and crushing their groins, but he can tell himself he's not killing them. It's funny that while the first had so much in common narratively with Dredd, this has so much in common thematically.
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Apr 2, 2014 23:56
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A co worker today likened this movie to "the godfather of action movies". How is this an apt comparison? Are we really expecting this movie to eventually take the top of the IMDB listings and secure itself in place as one of the great movies of all time? For the record. My godfather of action movies would be like RoboCop or Terminator 2. I didn't make it through the first raid I thought it was kinda boring and I fell asleep so I have a hard time seeing the comparison.
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Apr 4, 2014 04:00
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He meant "The Godfather III" of action movies.
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Apr 4, 2014 04:09
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Meowbot posted:Are we really expecting this movie to eventually take the top of the IMDB listings Oh, Icarus, dare not fly too high.
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Apr 4, 2014 06:09
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Teenage Fansub posted:Just saw it. This. I loooved the first one. Disliked this one. The fights were worse and they overcompensated by making them more brutal. Too much plot.
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Apr 4, 2014 21:00
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Meowbot posted:My godfather of action movies would be like RoboCop or Terminator 2. Your standards are must not be very high then.
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Apr 6, 2014 06:14
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Question for those who've seen it Were there subtitles on the conversation at the end, or is it meant to be silent, except for Rama saying "I'm Done"? I was a bit confused by this to be honest, so the ending felt kinda abrupt and weird
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Apr 6, 2014 10:10
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bullet3 posted:Question for those who've seen it Same
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Apr 6, 2014 10:12
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Also, I didn't like this as much as I hoped. It spends a solid hour and a half carefully setting up all the pieces of this crime epic, then utterly throws it all away to have the protagonist kick rear end with no clear motivation for doing so. The undercover cop storyline ends up being a complete waste of time that goes nowhere, so why waste our time for an hour if that's what you're going to do with it? Individual set-pieces are off-the-charts amazing, but it doesn't come together into a cohesive movie the way the original did. Bummer.
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Apr 6, 2014 10:26
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As a regular "Kitano-esque" (loved that comparison from that one poster) movie, it was generic but decent. But having seen the first movie, I had a whole lot of hype that this was going to be 2.5 hours of almost non-stop rear end kicking and bone breaking. Instead, it was just stop-and-go with the plot and action, and it felt a bit odd. Overall though, it was okay, but I really expected a whole lot more. Also, I really have no idea why (fake) Mad Dog was back in the movie, not that I had any issue with it, but I really hoped he was gonna team up with Rama and 2-vs-infinity a bunch of fools. It didn't help that as soon as he opened up his chain with a picture of kid, I knew he was going to die real soon.
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Apr 6, 2014 14:18
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I wouldn't mind the emphasis on plot if it mattered in anyway. There's a hard shift at the 90 min mark where all of the motivations stop making sense
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Apr 6, 2014 18:20
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