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Rush Limbo
Sep 5, 2005

its with a full house
So the Welsh government is looking to ban e-cigarettes in public places.
This truly confuses me. They are harmless to everyone, what with them being mostly water vapour.

They had an interview with the minister who wrote the white paper on the news and he literally said "the lack of concrete evidence is due to their being no evidence at the moment."

gently caress me, have the tobacco lobbies infiltrated the Senedd too?

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Fans
Jun 27, 2013

A reptile dysfunction

Renaissance Robot posted:

What the hell was happening in '88/89? :psyduck:

They announced the end of Double Mortgage Tax Relief which helped make houses affordable, so people rushed to buy property before it ended. When it did the market slumped and interest rates went crazy so no one was really capable of buying anymore.

Ddraig posted:

So the Welsh government is looking to ban e-cigarettes in public places.
This truly confuses me. They are harmless to everyone, what with them being mostly water vapour.

They had an interview with the minister who wrote the white paper on the news and he literally said "the lack of concrete evidence is due to their being no evidence at the moment."

gently caress me, have the tobacco lobbies infiltrated the Senedd too?


It's more some people being pissed off that people vaping seem like they're getting around the smoking in public ban. Which they are, but it's a stupid reason to ban them as well.

Guavanaut
Nov 27, 2009

Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998



Toilet Rascal

Ddraig posted:

So the Welsh government is looking to ban e-cigarettes in public places.
This truly confuses me. They are harmless to everyone, what with them being mostly water vapour.
They were saying that it "normalized smoking", even though it's purposefully designed to be a less harmful and less intrusive replacement. In the same way that putting the kettle on at work normalizes building wood fires in the breakroom I guess.

They were also playing the gateway drug routine on the news, despite there being no evidence at all that people start with e-cigarettes and then graduate to tobacco instead of the other way around.

Some cities in the US have tried the exact same thing recently, public e-cig bans with no other reason than 'it looks like smoking and so people might see it and then smoke'. I'm tempted to blame tobacco lobby involvement too.

Rush Limbo
Sep 5, 2005

its with a full house
The smoking ban was supposedly implemented out of dire need of public health. There may have been a moral and societal reason for this, but it was sold as a health benefit.

This is pretty much retroactively saying "well this wasn't really about health because even something that causes no actual harm to the person using it or anyone around them is still wrong".

They're now reframing it as a societal issue cloaked under the nebulous concept of an unknown health risk. If they want to outright ban smoking they should just say that rather than attacking the most effective harm reduction measure that currently exists

baka kaba
Jul 19, 2003

PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

KKKlean Energy posted:

And if you ever encounter a landlord who asks for a reference from a previous landlord, tell them to gently caress off, because that just means you've found an rear end in a top hat landlord. In my experience, landlords won't ask for that. At most they might ask for evidence you have a job.

Or see what happens if you say "Sure OK. In the meantime, could you please provide a reference from a previous tenant" - no reason why it shouldn't go both ways.

There are companies that do checks on tenants, usually for letting agencies, and they absolutely do landlord reference checks. That includes international references, and sometimes even contacting landlords further back in your history. That's as well as employment references (asking your employer if you have a job and how long it's expected to be secure) and credit/CCJ checks.

Maybe it's not so widespread for individual landlords, but there's a whole industry doing this and waving reference checks under landlords' noses for under a tenner. Just google "tenant checks"

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Just had the Guardian call me for quotes on Farage saying stupid poo poo about Syria and the August 21st Sarin attack.

Spangly A
May 14, 2009

God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

Brown Moses posted:

Just had the Guardian call me for quotes on Farage saying stupid poo poo about Syria and the August 21st Sarin attack.

I just discussed this with Tricjkaw as he said it. Yeah, he denied there was any Sarin. Clegg is coming dangerously close to making points but he talks too much. The host just called Farage out for lying.

Get anyone on that stand who knows how to debate and Farage will get trounced, he's leaving himself so open, but Clegg is just useless.

Spangly A
May 14, 2009

God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall
"Why do you keep denying that the EU wants a superpower army, I thought you liked them :downs:"

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

baka kaba posted:

There are companies that do checks on tenants, usually for letting agencies, and they absolutely do landlord reference checks. That includes international references, and sometimes even contacting landlords further back in your history. That's as well as employment references (asking your employer if you have a job and how long it's expected to be secure) and credit/CCJ checks.

Every letting agent I've had has asked for references (usually for like 3 years' back though I think they only ever contacted the immediately previous one). You get to pay for the reference check too. And one particularly charming firm also charged a decent amount to give a reference!

TinTower
Apr 21, 2010

You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.
Wow, Farage is being slaughtered here. He literally just said "immigration is making the white working class into an underclass" as if that doesn't sound like the one-eyed crazy racist.

Spangly A
May 14, 2009

God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

TinTower posted:

Wow, Farage is being slaughtered here. He literally just said "immigration is making the white working class into an underclass" as if that doesn't sound like the one-eyed crazy racist.

Really? I think Clegg is on the defensive and keeps trying to make complex points nobody is interested in.

Trickjaw
Jun 23, 2005
Nadie puede dar lo que no tiene



Mr Farage informs me that we should be hiding, for the Spaniards and eye-ties are out to live on our benefits in our verdant isle. On the plus side, we will all be busy building a new house every seven minutes to keep up with the influx of swarthy people who like decent coffee and tasty food.

Renaissance Robot
Oct 10, 2010

Bite my furry metal ass

Fans posted:

It's more some people being pissed off that people vaping seem like they're getting around the smoking in public ban. Which they are, but it's a stupid reason to ban them as well.

But vapes smell amazing :saddowns:

Spangly A
May 14, 2009

God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall
"Wind energy is bad for us because rich people" "scrap wind energy for shale".

Ok mate.

Renaissance Robot posted:

But vapes smell amazing :saddowns:

No you see some people cant tell the difference between green LEDs and actual cigs and thus pffffffft.

Trickjaw
Jun 23, 2005
Nadie puede dar lo que no tiene



My god. I think Farage just declared war.

ronya
Nov 8, 2010

I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.
note to Clegg: if your intention was to energize the lib dem base, going on TV and letting Farage go "immigration IS BAD" "no, no, immigration isn't as high as you say it is, because #numbers" and "the EU IS BAD" "no, no, the EU doesn't have as much influence as you say it does, because #numbers" is conceding all of Farage's favourite fears

McDragon
Sep 11, 2007

Why, did he say it was unforseeable? :v:

TinTower
Apr 21, 2010

You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

McDragon posted:

Why, did he say it was unforseeable? :v:

He said the EU would either end democratically or "rather unpleasantly".

Answers Me
Apr 24, 2012
Still not sure why the BBC are treating this as a Super Important Political Event rather than two cretins desperately scrambling to prove their own relevance.

Seriously, the 'post-debate analysis' on the news channel right now is ridiculously over the top.

baka kaba
Jul 19, 2003

PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

TinTower posted:

He said the EU would either end democratically or "rather unpleasantly".

Sounds like terrorist talk to me

Trickjaw
Jun 23, 2005
Nadie puede dar lo que no tiene



ronya posted:

note to Clegg: if your intention was to energize the lib dem base, going on TV and letting Farage go "immigration IS BAD" "no, no, immigration isn't as high as you say it is, because #numbers" and "the EU IS BAD" "no, no, the EU doesn't have as much influence as you say it does, because #numbers" is conceding all of Farage's favourite fears

Exactly my thoughts. Farage grandstands easily understood concepts ('To keep up with immigration we will have to build a city the size of Manchester every 4 years!' whilst Clegg dickered around mumbling about the buts and bolts that is too boring for the general public to digest.

Jawidar
Feb 17, 2007

Trickjaw posted:

Exactly my thoughts. Farage grandstands easily understood concepts ('To keep up with immigration we will have to build a city the size of Manchester every 4 years!' whilst Clegg dickered around mumbling about the buts and bolts that is too boring for the general public to digest.

ronya posted:

note to Clegg: if your intention was to energize the lib dem base, going on TV and letting Farage go "immigration IS BAD" "no, no, immigration isn't as high as you say it is, because #numbers" and "the EU IS BAD" "no, no, the EU doesn't have as much influence as you say it does, because #numbers" is conceding all of Farage's favourite fears

It's pretty patronising to suggest that the British people don't have the attention span or ability to digest complex statements (with numbers in them :aaa:).

Spangly A
May 14, 2009

God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

TinTower posted:

He said the EU would either end democratically or "rather unpleasantly".

Awkward phrasing but probably correct, the EU's current format is totally unsustainable because the currency hasn't worked and when Spain and Italy go they won't be able to bail them out.

Jawidar posted:

It's pretty patronising to suggest that the British people don't have the attention span or ability to digest complex statements (with numbers in them :aaa:).

Are you taking the piss? It's not a secret that debating semantics instead of making absolute statements is a shortcut to losing a debate because of the way human memory works.

Spangly A fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Apr 2, 2014

ronya
Nov 8, 2010

I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.
it would seem utterly disconnected, in the current political climate, to go on TV and say IMMIGRATION IS GOOD. THE EU IS GOOD

but that just means that a debate was a bad strategic decision to begin with. the only party that wins from watching Farage give Clegg a wedgie for half an hour are the Tories

Jawidar posted:

It's pretty patronising to suggest that the British people don't have the attention span or ability to digest complex statements (with numbers in them :aaa:).

that's not my point, my point is that Clegg is conceding Farage's core appeal to fear over IMMIGRANTS! or THE EU! being evil, malign things. It doesn't matter whether the Brussels influence on UK law is "actually" 7% instead of 75%, the UKIP works through an outrage that there is any such influence at all

ronya fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Apr 2, 2014

Gyro Zeppeli
Jul 19, 2012

sure hope no-one throws me off a bridge

Trickjaw posted:

Exactly my thoughts. Farage grandstands easily understood concepts ('To keep up with immigration we will have to build a city the size of Manchester every 4 years!' whilst Clegg dickered around mumbling about the buts and bolts that is too boring for the general public to digest.

Yeah, Farage might have been speaking absolute lunacy, but gently caress, at least he knows how to speak in soundbites. For someone who is supposedly Deputy PM, Clegg really needs some basic PR training.

baka kaba
Jul 19, 2003

PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

Trickjaw posted:

Exactly my thoughts. Farage grandstands easily understood concepts ('To keep up with immigration we will have to build a city the size of Manchester every 4 years!' whilst Clegg dickered around mumbling about the buts and bolts that is too boring for the general public to digest.

You mean Farage rants like a fire and brimstone preacher about impending doom and horror while Clegg deals somewhat in reality. The trouble is you either need an audience which a) already understands the reality of the situation or b) is interested enough to listen critically to what's being said. We don't have that, not coincidentally, so it's basically who can tell the most interesting stories that push at people's buttons, and even without trying to talk facts and evidence, "everything's fine" is never going to compete with "everything's hosed... BY THEM!!!"

Jawidar posted:

It's pretty patronising to suggest that the British people don't have the attention span or ability to digest complex statements (with numbers in them :aaa:).

It's a lot more complicated than that, humans aren't perfectly rational and the kind of thing Farage does can embed itself, and no amount of evidence will reverse it in many cases. Plus most of the people who actually will absorb the statistics arguments are probably already aware of what the EU is and does, and don't really need convincing that Farage mostly talks poo poo.

baka kaba fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Apr 2, 2014

Microplastics
Jul 6, 2007

:discourse:
It's what's for dinner.

Answers Me posted:

Seriously, the 'post-debate analysis' on the news channel right now is ridiculously over the top.

An American import, sadly. Just wait until they wheel out the "body language experts"

baka kaba
Jul 19, 2003

PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

KKKlean Energy posted:

An American import, sadly. Just wait until they wheel out the "body language experts"

I'm hoping for micro-expressions analysis

Trickjaw
Jun 23, 2005
Nadie puede dar lo que no tiene



baka kaba posted:

You mean Farage rants like a fire and brimstone preacher about impending doom and horror while Clegg deals somewhat in reality. The trouble is you either need an audience which a) already understands the reality of the situation or b) is interested enough to listen critically to what's being said. We don't have that, not coincidentally, so it's basically who can tell the most interesting stories that push at people's buttons, and even without trying to talk facts and evidence, "everything's fine" is never going to compete with "everything's hosed... BY THEM!!!"

I never said it was good, or right. I think anyone in this thread knows it is all about presentation. What headlines will it make if Farage says that 7% of our laws come from the EU and then there are other middling do-dahs when he can shout "ALL OUR LAWS COME FROM BRUSSELS! DEMOCRACY IS DEAD!"

Answers Me
Apr 24, 2012

KKKlean Energy posted:

An American import, sadly. Just wait until they wheel out the "body language experts"

Sounds like Farage 'won', according the experts. How many points do you need to win Politics?

Obliterati
Nov 13, 2012

Pain is inevitable.
Suffering is optional.
Thunderdome is forever.

Answers Me posted:

Sounds like Farage 'won', according the experts. How many points do you need to win Politics?

It's easy enough: either express the views the experts have or don't be someone they actively dislike.

Margaret Thatcher
Jan 2, 2013

by Cowcaster
Like most of you here, I'm equally dismayed by both Farage and Clegg - especially after tonight's debate.

On one side we've got a Thatcher-worshiping nationalist who opposes the EU because of its regulations and restrictions on big businesses.

On the other other, we've got a career politician who also worships free markets but loves the European Union because it helps us fight terrorism and dirty border criminals.

Both sides love free markets, both sides want privatisation and a liberalised economy.

The left shouldn't try to ally with Clegg on this, as he's committing us to the EU's brutal austerity regime that surprisingly nobody has touched on yet. Likewise, we shouldn't find a friend in Farage just because he is some self-declared establishment rebel, as he's offering the same austerity measures and supply-side economy that the EU forces on us.

If there was a referendum tomorrow? I'd vote to leave the EU, simply because it remains to be a business-focused free market model obsessed around profits and designed by Thatcher.

Answers Me
Apr 24, 2012
Yeah, there's perfectly good leftist reasons for leaving the EU; neoliberalism being practically enshrined in law for starters.

As it is, Nick Clegg is challenging crypto-fascist jingoistic bollocks with liberal jingoistic bollocks.

Spangly A
May 14, 2009

God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

Answers Me posted:

Sounds like Farage 'won', according the experts. How many points do you need to win Politics?

51% of the seats last I checked

Margaret Thatcher posted:


If there was a referendum tomorrow? I'd vote to leave the EU, simply because it remains to be a business-focused free market model obsessed around profits and designed by Thatcher.

Congrats, you just murdered a bunch of people. Until the revolution is viable you have to play politics, and that means not selling us down the river. It sure as hell won't be the rich taking the brunt of the massive loss of income we suffer from leaving the EU, especially when Scotland leaves with all of the EUs wind power.

Answers Me posted:

Yeah, there's perfectly good leftist reasons for leaving the EU; neoliberalism being practically enshrined in law for starters.


Philosophically? sure, but in practice we need to time our exit just before it dissolves, so we don't get brutally market-hosed.

Fluo
May 25, 2007

hookerbot 5000 posted:

I think it's because Brand is a pervert and Webb is a libertarian? The Brand thing is definitely to do with the way he treats women.

He votes Labour, unless I don't understand what a libertarian, he isn't a libertarian.

Margaret Thatcher
Jan 2, 2013

by Cowcaster

Spangly A posted:

Philosophically? sure, but in practice we need to time our exit just before it dissolves, so we don't get brutally market-hosed.

There's probably some merit in this point, but I fear the damage of another 5-10 years of austerity and budget cuts would be damage beyond repair. It would be a complete reversal of all post-war social democracy and we'd be stuck in a post-Reagan US-type economy, or worse - we'd be plunged back into pre-WW2 with virtually no safety net or social programs.

A Farage-style EU exit would probably be equally as catastrophic though. Instead, we need a case for a progressive/leftist exit - embracing internationalist co-operation of climate change, right to live where you want, but opposing the union's economic doctrines.

Spangly A
May 14, 2009

God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall
Webbs reply was smug as gently caress and basically "the only way you plebs will ever be free of oppression and capitalism is to vote labour" whereas brands was "if you become apolitical then the entire structure will fall over!!" which is some incredible degree of loving stupid. Also he's a really bad person when he isn't championing progressive drug law in parliament.

Spangly A
May 14, 2009

God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

Margaret Thatcher posted:

There's probably some merit in this point, but I fear the damage of another 5-10 years of austerity and budget cuts would be damage beyond repair. It would be a complete reversal of all post-war social democracy and we'd be stuck in a post-Reagan US-type economy, or worse - we'd be plunged back into pre-WW2 with virtually no safety net or social programs.

A Farage-style EU exit would probably be equally as catastrophic though. Instead, we need a case for a progressive/leftist exit - embracing internationalist co-operation of climate change, right to live where you want, but opposing the union's economic doctrines.

I'm pretty sure you haven't grasped what's actually happening lad. We're not neoliberal because the EU tells us, and it's patently clear they're pulling us to the left at this point.

Fluo
May 25, 2007

Fans posted:

It's more some people being pissed off that people vaping seem like they're getting around the smoking in public ban. Which they are, but it's a stupid reason to ban them as well.
Let them be pissed off. It's not smoke anyway, I don't see them getting mad at people using nicotine gum in pubs. It's a form of quitting smoking, the gum gives a lot of people acidy stomachs / acid reflux. The patches hard annoying, dont feel like they're working and doesn't give that zap you kind of looking for to help quit. Lozenges are the second best to e-cigs if you can put up with the chalkyness but part of the habit of keeping your hands busy. So its best to get off nicotine first then deal with your hand problems. Nasal spray is the worst in public as it seems like you're doing poppers or something.

If anyone think people move from real tobacco to ecigs as some kind of smug loophole to being able to openly smoke wherever they want they're pretty dumb. It's a form of quitting smoking over time by reducing the dose, you still crave real cigs but its alot better then going cold turkey. down to 0.6% from 2.4% over the course of a handful of months. Also its the one I've personally found with the lease amount of side effects.

Spangly A posted:

Webbs reply was smug as gently caress and basically "the only way you plebs will ever be free of oppression and capitalism is to vote labour" whereas brands was "if you become apolitical then the entire structure will fall over!!" which is some incredible degree of loving stupid. Also he's a really bad person when he isn't championing progressive drug law in parliament.

I think his point was more so that its easier for UKIP and other far right to get elected MPs and such which gives them creditability if normal minded people stopped voting in protest. Which is true.

Fluo fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Apr 2, 2014

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Spangly A
May 14, 2009

God help you if ever you're caught on these shores

A man's ambition must indeed be small
To write his name upon a shithouse wall

Fluo posted:

I think his point was more so that its easier for UKIP and other far right to get elected MPs and such which gives them creditability if normal minded people stopped voting in protest. Which is true.

It is. It didn't come across well, though. I'm pretty sure at the time it was self-depricating, or I would hope so.

Can't wait to see how many people think Farage was dead sexy in this debate, that's more what we want to hear of.

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