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  • Locked thread
Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

The logical conclusion to the NATO woes in Europe is to to get the EU an army, and have the EU pony up the money for NATO. (hahahahha)

Electronico6 fucked around with this message at 00:10 on May 6, 2014

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Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

by Smythe

Electronico6 posted:

The logical conclusion to the NATO woes in Europe is to to get the EU an army, and have the EU pony up the money for NATO. (hahahahha)

Just add the US to the EU and you'll solve that problem. (Genius or armegeddon?)

drilldo squirt
Aug 18, 2006

a beautiful, soft meat sack
Clapping Larry

V. Illych L. posted:

NATO is poo poo, though, Putin also being poo poo doesn't change that.

How is nato poo poo?

Crowsbeak
Oct 9, 2012

by Azathoth
Lipstick Apathy

Install Windows posted:

Just add the US to the EU and you'll solve that problem. (Genius or armegeddon?)

Just get the republicans to believe it will mean an influx of white people. (It won't).

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK
Cybernetic Crumb

vegetables posted:

As a UK person I'm very frustrated that there doesn't seem to be a party which is both opposed to further austerity in the EU and broadly supportive of NATO's presence in Eastern Europe in light of recent developments in Ukraine. It seems to me that these two qualities are both essential to coherently supporting social justice in Europe over the next term, but I have a sinking feeling that there aren't very many people who agree.
Voting against austerity? :unsmith:

As long as merkel sits on the throne of europe, austerity will not go (so I guess the only way to vote against austerity is to do it on a national level in germany).

A few months ago it looked as if Hollande together with the southern states was starting to form an alliance to break merkels predominace in the council. In the end, he joined the austerity crowd. Austerity will stay.

Install Windows posted:

Just add the US to the EU and you'll solve that problem. (Genius or armegeddon?)
Well, I already read a :tinfoil:-thing somewhere that the EU is EVEN NOW taking over the US.

WHO IS LAUGHING NOW???

Nektu fucked around with this message at 07:13 on May 6, 2014

Rude Dude With Tude
Apr 19, 2007

Your President approves this text.


Seen over the skies of Florida this morning. :tinfoil:

Also why are we discussing the EuroParl elections when there's much more important voting taking place in Europe this Saturday;



The Ukraine / Russia voting will be interesting, as the Crimean telephone system hasn't switched to being part of Russia yet, so their votes count as Ukrainian votes. So let's watch Ukraine vote for these people
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPI7AnD_QS8

while everyone else votes for Pollapönk,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwfGKEIn5xw

Conchita Wurst's beard,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToqNa0rqUtY

or the two cake related records
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7CL8anA1hQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qe7YmYgowM

V. Illych L.
Apr 11, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

drilldo squirt posted:

How is nato poo poo?

oh gee i dunno maybe by being the effective enforcer of the currently lovely global status quo

Since Kosovo it's not even really a defensive pact anymore. It's just a huge military club for the US and friends. It's an enormous military organisation with an unclear mandate and a tendency to act as more of less of a blunt instrument for US foreign policy interests. Europe gets to not pay for their defense in exchange for generally toeing the overall US agenda. At best you can say that it limits aggression from actors like Russia, but even that is a pretty difficult claim to back up.

So, yeah, NATO is pretty poo poo. It's a cold-war institution that has to find ways to justify itself long after the cold war has passed. It's a relic of the era of the American superpower, which is what Putin really broke with his flagrantly illegal annexation of the Crimean peninsula.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011

V. Illych L. posted:

oh gee i dunno maybe by being the effective enforcer of the currently lovely global status quo

Since Kosovo it's not even really a defensive pact anymore. It's just a huge military club for the US and friends. It's an enormous military organisation with an unclear mandate and a tendency to act as more of less of a blunt instrument for US foreign policy interests. Europe gets to not pay for their defense in exchange for generally toeing the overall US agenda. At best you can say that it limits aggression from actors like Russia, but even that is a pretty difficult claim to back up.

So, yeah, NATO is pretty poo poo. It's a cold-war institution that has to find ways to justify itself long after the cold war has passed. It's a relic of the era of the American superpower, which is what Putin really broke with his flagrantly illegal annexation of the Crimean peninsula.

While what happened in Kosovo is truly terrible that's the only point I'm willing to agree with you on. I think you're naive if you seriously believe American foreign policy is in any way decided based on the opinions of European governments. The overwhelming amount of poo poo the US has been up to for the last decades has not in any way been dependent on the military alliance. :allears:

The NATO project is and will keep being a resounding success until the day there's an actual war on NATO soil. Having the vast majority of the worlds military spending united under one banner is a actually a very good thing believe it or not.

Teron D Amun
Oct 9, 2010

Nektu posted:

A few months ago it looked as if Hollande together with the southern states was starting to form an alliance to break merkels predominace in the council. In the end, he joined the austerity crowd. Austerity will stay.

the german word for that behaviour is "solid arisch"

V. Illych L.
Apr 11, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

Well, the US would have that on their own. No need to keep the rest of us around and hooked up to the whole ridiculous MIC if that's the purpose. I fail to see any reasonable global role for NATO in today's world; as a defensive alliance, it seems increasingly outdated. As an offensive instrument, it's pretty much purely imperial. If you're cool with that, that's your business; a leftist party or individual (like the Left Party or me, respectively, in this case) will tend to see that as a bad thing. Obviously American interests in Iraq were non-NATO-dependent, but Afghanistan, Kosovo and Libya are all clear instances of this enormous military and economic powerhouse basically not giving a toss about what its mandate is or should be, and using that power in its own interests.

Libya was arguably a European thing initially, but it also became very much an American operation, both politically and militarily. For a modern European state, membership in NATO is essentially ceding a bit of sovereignty to the Americans in exchange for not having to spend so much money for a functional military (though in some instances I would argue that this is somewhat perverse, like the Norwegian fighter jet acquisition kerfuffle); opposition to it on these grounds is entirely legitimate.

Job Truniht
Nov 7, 2012

MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR
When talking about defenses of Europe and NATO, it's not like European countries don't spend any money on defense. There won't be a massive vacancy just because the NATO agreement as dissolved.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011

Yeah, people seem to forget that the current combined military expenditure of each European country is currently thrice of what Russia is spending. :v:

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK
Cybernetic Crumb

Teron D Amun posted:

the german word for that behaviour is "solid arisch"
Hardly. True, she is protecting german interests, but thats her job. Noone wants the suffering, the anger and the political centrifugal forces that threaten to rip apart what little europe there is.

I'd say that the severity of the remedy is a just sign about how dire the situation really is.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:

Also why are we discussing the EuroParl elections when there's much more important voting taking place in Europe this Saturday;
Oh my :laugh:

And this thread started with such good intentions...

Nektu fucked around with this message at 23:30 on May 6, 2014

AlexanderCA
Jul 21, 2010

by Cyrano4747

Xoidanor posted:

Yeah, people seem to forget that the current combined military expenditure of each European country is currently thrice of what Russia is spending. :v:

The disclaimer that has to go with this bit of truth is that that money is spent on a huge amount of duplication. We recently developed 3 modern jet fighters, a hugely expensive undertaking, that all do basically the same multirole delta canard trick.

Same for the 4 different main battle tank designs, or the absolute plethora of wheeled and tracked armored troop carriers.

There's a lot of attention (often completely misinterpreting him) paid to Eisenhower's military industrial complex. But while we might spend less money overall, comparatively European duplication makes the American military look outright efficient spenders :psyduck:

Then there's the even bigger problem of having 28 different military leaderships answering to their respective governments trying to coordinate anything.

We spend 1/3 - 1/2 the money the Americans do while getting a only a miniscule fraction of their capability.

Seeing as we don't actually need American level capability you could save so much money and still come out in a better position by unfucking that.

But that would require some severe transfer of sovereignty for which I don't expect much democratic support from the populace or support from many military personnel themselves who joined a national, not supranational military.

:spergin:

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

vegetables posted:

As a UK person I'm very frustrated that there doesn't seem to be a party which is both opposed to further austerity in the EU and broadly supportive of NATO's presence in Eastern Europe in light of recent developments in Ukraine. It seems to me that these two qualities are both essential to coherently supporting social justice in Europe over the next term, but I have a sinking feeling that there aren't very many people who agree.

The last thing the EU needs is to send soldiers to defend the interests of a specific oligarchs against other specific oligarchs.

Or maybe it is what the EU needs, since the first day people start dying in some worthless steppe in Ukraine because Merkel wants her new market austere and open for business will be the day people will start to get really really pissed off with the EU.

There needs to be a separation between the foreign policy of the EU and the United States. It's bad enough we went along with the Americans into worthless wars in the Middle East and suffer metro bombings because of it, if they and Russia care so much about reviving the Cold War then let them play pretend war, just leave EU citizens out of it.

Any kind of military dick waving regarding Ukraine and Russia will "justify" increased military spending, which will always fall on the backs of the working class. Focus on fighting austerity because that's actually fighting a good war.


If i recall correctly pretty much every EU nation has it's own snowflake of combat fighter, meaning a "centralized" air force would be this giant ball of assorted aircraft, with entire airfields porpuse built just to make sure each plane can get their own supplies and spare parts.

Mans fucked around with this message at 00:35 on May 7, 2014

Redeye Flight
Mar 26, 2010

God, I'm so tired. What the hell did I post last night?

Mans posted:

There needs to be a separation between the foreign policy of the EU and the United States. It's bad enough we went along with the Americans into worthless wars in the Middle East and suffer metro bombings because of it, if they and Russia care so much about reviving the Cold War then let them play pretend war, just leave EU citizens out of it.

I swear to Christ, we don't want to start another Cold War any more than you do. Don't take the screaming jabbering from the right as an accurate summation of the country. A very large majority of the country (about 74%, I think) was polled as saying they want nothing to do with war in the Ukraine. We don't even want to arm the bastards, we are sick sick sick of war.

Whether the MIC wants another war may be a different matter (of course they do, it makes them money), but the populace isn't going to go along with it. The more keyed-in people are watching Russia's economy disintegrate after the sanctions and trying to explain that there's more than one way to skin a bear.

Kurtofan
Feb 16, 2011

hon hon hon
Who said anything about a war with Russia? Do you guys really believe NATO is going to go to war with Russia.

I don't believe it's just a "war between oligarchs", do you just handwave the whole 'rah rah nationalism' angle Putin is going for?

Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 11:07 on May 7, 2014

mortons stork
Oct 13, 2012

Kurtofan posted:

Who said anything about a war with Russia? Do you guys really believe NATO is going to go to war with Russia.

I don't believe it's just a "war between oligarchs", do you just handwave the whole 'rah rah nationalism' angle Putin is going for?

I'd say western Europe should overall be very concerned over what NATO does in the region because Russia is, after all, on our doorstep, not the US. While diplomatic relations between most EU countries and Russia have been generally lukewarm, Italy has for a while trying its best to hold a friendly diplomatic line towards Russia because of favorable industrial/energy deals, so any NATO/EU declaration w/r/t Ukraine constantly puts pressure on our diplomacy to choose between toeing one line or another. I think there's certainly a lot of people who wish the whole thing just flew under the radar and didn't cause them any unnecessary headaches in foreign policy. I don't think anyone wants to be dragged in a war with a regional power over the interest of the superpower an ocean away, and a lot are already likely losing money because of the whole mess.

Postorder Trollet89
Jan 12, 2008
Sweden doesn't do religion. But if they did, it would probably be the best religion in the world.

V. Illych L. posted:

Well, the US would have that on their own. No need to keep the rest of us around and hooked up to the whole ridiculous MIC if that's the purpose. I fail to see any reasonable global role for NATO in today's world; as a defensive alliance, it seems increasingly outdated. As an offensive instrument, it's pretty much purely imperial. If you're cool with that, that's your business; a leftist party or individual (like the Left Party or me, respectively, in this case) will tend to see that as a bad thing. Obviously American interests in Iraq were non-NATO-dependent, but Afghanistan, Kosovo and Libya are all clear instances of this enormous military and economic powerhouse basically not giving a toss about what its mandate is or should be, and using that power in its own interests.

Libya was arguably a European thing initially, but it also became very much an American operation, both politically and militarily. For a modern European state, membership in NATO is essentially ceding a bit of sovereignty to the Americans in exchange for not having to spend so much money for a functional military (though in some instances I would argue that this is somewhat perverse, like the Norwegian fighter jet acquisition kerfuffle); opposition to it on these grounds is entirely legitimate.

Not to mention NATO membership garantuees a ton of money to US defense contractors, most notably from smaller members who can't produce full spectrum hardware internally, like Norway. Stuff like the disasterous F-35 would never have gotten off the drawing board without NATO customers.

Kurtofan
Feb 16, 2011

hon hon hon

mortons stork posted:

I'd say western Europe should overall be very concerned over what NATO does in the region because Russia is, after all, on our doorstep, not the US. While diplomatic relations between most EU countries and Russia have been generally lukewarm, Italy has for a while trying its best to hold a friendly diplomatic line towards Russia because of favorable industrial/energy deals, so any NATO/EU declaration w/r/t Ukraine constantly puts pressure on our diplomacy to choose between toeing one line or another. I think there's certainly a lot of people who wish the whole thing just flew under the radar and didn't cause them any unnecessary headaches in foreign policy. I don't think anyone wants to be dragged in a war with a regional power over the interest of the superpower an ocean away, and a lot are already likely losing money because of the whole mess.

Seems pretty lovely to just let Putin's invasion go unpunished because we don't want to lose our sweet energy deals. I'm against war, but at least we should do something similar to Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions.

Random Integer
Oct 7, 2010

Mans posted:

The last thing the EU needs is to send soldiers to defend the interests of a specific oligarchs against other specific oligarchs.

Or maybe it is what the EU needs, since the first day people start dying in some worthless steppe in Ukraine because Merkel wants her new market austere and open for business will be the day people will start to get really really pissed off with the EU.

There needs to be a separation between the foreign policy of the EU and the United States. It's bad enough we went along with the Americans into worthless wars in the Middle East and suffer metro bombings because of it, if they and Russia care so much about reviving the Cold War then let them play pretend war, just leave EU citizens out of it.

Any kind of military dick waving regarding Ukraine and Russia will "justify" increased military spending, which will always fall on the backs of the working class. Focus on fighting austerity because that's actually fighting a good war.

He didn't say anything about getting involved in Ukraine so this is a pretty disingenuous argument to make.

mortons stork
Oct 13, 2012

Kurtofan posted:

Seems pretty lovely to just let Putin's invasion go unpunished because we don't want to lose our sweet energy deals. I'm against war, but at least we should do something similar to Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions.

Well, ever since the Italian government kindly helped France relieve them of their other privileged gas and oil supplier Lybia, violating several treaties in the process as well, I'd say we as a country have the full right to shut the gently caress up about Russia's foreign policy and thank them for having been able to heat our houses this winter too. I don't agree with Putin's expansionist ambitions either, believe me, but I still prefer foreign policy that puts us in a better spot overall, as opposed to idealistic or morally motivated postures. We've always been close to the Russian bloc, and we've always, one way or another, benefited from it. Now we are close to dependent on those diplomatic and trade ties with them and we are in no position to side against them.
E: to clarify, I'm Italian and the 'we as a country' I'm referring to is Italy. Sorry if my phrasing is unclear.

mortons stork fucked around with this message at 12:22 on May 7, 2014

Sheng-Ji Yang
Mar 5, 2014


It is eastern Europe that is pushing NATO to act more than the US. The US/NATO has only really sent troops and kicked up a fuss because Poland and the Baltic are panicking and pretty much demanding it.

LemonDrizzle
Mar 28, 2012

neoliberal shithead

mortons stork posted:

Well, ever since the Italian government kindly helped France relieve them of their other privileged gas and oil supplier Lybia, violating several treaties in the process as well, I'd say we as a country have the full right to shut the gently caress up about Russia's foreign policy and thank them for having been able to heat our houses this winter too. I don't agree with Putin's expansionist ambitions either, believe me, but I still prefer foreign policy that puts us in a better spot overall, as opposed to idealistic or morally motivated postures. We've always been close to the Russian bloc, and we've always, one way or another, benefited from it. Now we are close to dependent on those diplomatic and trade ties with them and we are in no position to side against them.
E: to clarify, I'm Italian and the 'we as a country' I'm referring to is Italy. Sorry if my phrasing is unclear.

I don't think you can reasonably claim that your desire for cheap energy should trump the security and territorial integrity of other EU member states.

Postorder Trollet89
Jan 12, 2008
Sweden doesn't do religion. But if they did, it would probably be the best religion in the world.

LemonDrizzle posted:

I don't think you can reasonably claim that your desire for cheap energy should trump the security and territorial integrity of other EU member states.

I guess we should thank our lucky stars that there are no such threats. The Russian boogie man simply don't exist anymore, it's a propagandist fantasy living on amongst conservatives in a post cold war EU.

Edit: And seriously, stop derailing a thread about the EU parliament with this Lazzies-Faire bullshit about Putin-is-totally-Hitler2.0.

mortons stork
Oct 13, 2012

LemonDrizzle posted:

I don't think you can reasonably claim that your desire for cheap energy should trump the security and territorial integrity of other EU member states.

Cheap energy is one of the few reasons Italy hasn't seen its economy and social order collapse completely, as opposed to the mild to severe political turmoil and recession it is now facing. Considering the EU is already teetering over the edge of the chasm, I wouldn't call this concern secondary.

Also, since this has nothing to do with the elections I'll stop.

LemonDrizzle
Mar 28, 2012

neoliberal shithead

Postorder Trollet89 posted:

I guess we should thank our lucky stars that there are no such threats. The Russian boogie man simply don't exist anymore, it's a propagandist fantasy living on amongst conservatives in a post cold war EU.

Edit: And seriously, stop derailing a thread about the EU parliament with this Lazzies-Faire bullshit about Putin-is-totally-Hitler2.0.

The Russian boogie man has annexed territory from two of its neighbours in the last few years. I don't think that it's unreasonable to suggest that it may continue doing so or that the concerns of Poland and the Baltic states are somehow illegitimate. Also, what exactly do foreign policy concerns have to do with laissez-faire economics, and how is EU foreign and trade policy an unreasonable thing to discuss in a thread about EU elections?

Kurtofan
Feb 16, 2011

hon hon hon

Postorder Trollet89 posted:

I guess we should thank our lucky stars that there are no such threats. The Russian boogie man simply don't exist anymore, it's a propagandist fantasy living on amongst conservatives in a post cold war EU.

Edit: And seriously, stop derailing a thread about the EU parliament with this Lazzies-Faire bullshit about Putin-is-totally-Hitler2.0.

Putin is more of a conservative/nationalist's wet dream than their nightmare. Also talking about fantasy when it's happening right now in Ukraine on a major scale is pretty surreal.

I think it's relevant to the election, i.e the Left Front tract I received this morning said something like 'let's get out of Nato'

Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 14:41 on May 7, 2014

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Random Integer posted:

He didn't say anything about getting involved in Ukraine so this is a pretty disingenuous argument to make.

vegetables posted:

As a UK person I'm very frustrated that there doesn't seem to be a party which is both opposed to further austerity in the EU and broadly supportive of NATO's presence in Eastern Europe in light of recent developments in Ukraine. It seems to me that these two qualities are both essential to coherently supporting social justice in Europe over the next term, but I have a sinking feeling that there aren't very many people who agree.
NATO's presence in Eastern Europe in light of recent developments in Ukraine is a pretty way of saying "more justification for military spending and more F-35s while people are desperate to find a public hospital in working conditions". There's not much we can do about Ukraine without loving things up even further. Poland, Finland and the Baltic states are a completely different scenario because they're fully integrated into NATO and the EU and i'll vote for the far right if Putin ever messes with them.

Ardennes
May 12, 2002
Obviously there is a pretty big difference between defending EU states (some which are part of NATO, Finland isn't) versus intervening in Ukraine. Ultimately, Poland and the Baltic states want to be reassured, that is reasonable to an extent and to be honest you don't need divisions of men to send a message, a few squadrons of fighters is ultimately probably enough.

As far as punishing Putin there is the question of how much you want to ultimately target the Russian people themselves since Putin, Russian industry and the public are quite tied up in a ball right now. The rest has been trying sanctions but ultimately they have been limited to individuals and even then when they have been expanded to banks, they have effected members of the public.

Bank Rossiya for example has normal customers who couldn't spend or receive payments they needed because of the sanctions. Ultimately, I think there will be a very public split in Europe if the question of openly punishing the Russian population in exchange more expensive and less reliable energy supplies.

Postorder Trollet89
Jan 12, 2008
Sweden doesn't do religion. But if they did, it would probably be the best religion in the world.

Kurtofan posted:

Putin is more of a conservative/nationalist's wet dream than their nightmare. Also talking about fantasy when it's happening right now in Ukraine on a major scale is pretty surreal.

I think it's relevant to the election, i.e the Left Front tract I received this morning said something like 'let's get out of Nato'


Eastern Europe has always been a hotbed for ethnic strife. Ukraine is no exception. To suggest that Putin or even Russia alone is the reason for all this is really turning a blind eye to obvious trends in history. Sure no doubt Putin has one or more fingers in this pie but it's not like pro-russian sentiment just magically appeared in Donetsk. It's been there for quite some time now and it was only a matter of time before it boiled over. The pro-EU majdan protests simply proved the right catalyst.


Ukraine will probably be a topic for the EU elections but only really on the centre-right wing. Social Democrats and the Greens will have more important things to do like setting wage laws to prevent companies from exploiting eastern european labour.

Adverbially
Sep 17, 2013

Soiled Meat
I have compiled a list of polls for each country and those specific to the EUP election here, if you want an overview. A lot of the links come with charts, but let me know if you want anything visualized, and I’ll slap something together.

Spoiler alert, the populist and eurosceptic parties are winning.

drilldo squirt
Aug 18, 2006

a beautiful, soft meat sack
Clapping Larry

V. Illych L. posted:

oh gee i dunno maybe by being the effective enforcer of the currently lovely global status quo

Since Kosovo it's not even really a defensive pact anymore. It's just a huge military club for the US and friends. It's an enormous military organisation with an unclear mandate and a tendency to act as more of less of a blunt instrument for US foreign policy interests. Europe gets to not pay for their defense in exchange for generally toeing the overall US agenda. At best you can say that it limits aggression from actors like Russia, but even that is a pretty difficult claim to back up.

So, yeah, NATO is pretty poo poo. It's a cold-war institution that has to find ways to justify itself long after the cold war has passed. It's a relic of the era of the American superpower, which is what Putin really broke with his flagrantly illegal annexation of the Crimean peninsula.

America is sorta still able to do whatever the hell it wants, and I don't see how Putin annexing a state that isn't in nato has anything to do with it. Also isn't this actually pushing a lot more states into defensive alliances with America? How is that a bad thing for american superpower?

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152829614042519&set=a.70689967518.97121.681952518&type=1&theater

I guess the left is just that desperate for votes :negative:

Deltasquid
Apr 10, 2013

awww...
you guys made me ink!


THUNDERDOME

Ahahaha, they're stooping pretty low all right.

LemonDrizzle
Mar 28, 2012

neoliberal shithead
I thought that sort of thing was par for the course in Italian politics.

Electronico6
Feb 25, 2011

It's the media fault for not giving the proper time and attention to Tsipras campaign. :colbert:

mortons stork
Oct 13, 2012

Looks like Tsipras Italy has finally given up on being elected, instead opting for going full 'self-aware-clowns-in-the-circus' metacommentary, which is extremely my poo poo.

Truthfully though, they knew from the start they'd never get a seat, the past 4 months has been them announcing well-known people from important leftist publications/activist groups as candidates and them either pulling out after a week or denying the claim outright, wanting little to do with them. When asked why they kept nominating people they knew full well would refuse, the answer was 'for the good publicity'. I don't think much will come from their Italian branch, which narrows down the choice for voting to the Democratic Party. As much as I hate their centrist, sometimes milquetoast left stances, every other party with a chance to make it in is fully made up of clowns (forza italia, 5 star movement, lega nord).

Also no, even that poo poo ain't par for the course in our politics and I hope they get relentlessly ridiculed for that.

LemonDrizzle
Mar 28, 2012

neoliberal shithead

mortons stork posted:

Also no, even that poo poo ain't par for the course in our politics and I hope they get relentlessly ridiculed for that.
Didn't a former porn star get elected to the Italian parliament and offer to screw Saddam Hussein while in office?

TBH though, trying to sell politics with a bit of T&A hardly seems any less absurd than electing Berlusconi several times or the fact that Beppe Grillo is a serious political figure in Italy.

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mortons stork
Oct 13, 2012

LemonDrizzle posted:

Didn't a former porn star get elected to the Italian parliament and offer to screw Saddam Hussein while in office?

TBH though, trying to sell politics with a bit of T&A hardly seems any less absurd than electing Berlusconi several times or the fact that Beppe Grillo is a serious political figure in Italy.

The only porn star I remember being elected was Ilona Staller in the Radical Party in 1987. For the record though, the Radical party has been the party campaigning for divorce and abortion legalization back in the '60s and '70s, and they have always gone the way of activism and provocation, doing obstructionism in Parliament and basically fighting a whole lot of battles about personal liberty. I think that's quite different from what you're referring to.
And, I realize, living in the asylum it doesn't really look much like the inmates are running it until you get out and see it from outside, so that point about Berlusconi and Grillo is perfectly fair. But I stand by what I said: that promotion from Tsipras is either very good metacommentary or very idiotic last-minute campaigning.

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