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Kurtofan posted:Who said anything about a war with Russia? Do you guys really believe NATO is going to go to war with Russia. I'd say western Europe should overall be very concerned over what NATO does in the region because Russia is, after all, on our doorstep, not the US. While diplomatic relations between most EU countries and Russia have been generally lukewarm, Italy has for a while trying its best to hold a friendly diplomatic line towards Russia because of favorable industrial/energy deals, so any NATO/EU declaration w/r/t Ukraine constantly puts pressure on our diplomacy to choose between toeing one line or another. I think there's certainly a lot of people who wish the whole thing just flew under the radar and didn't cause them any unnecessary headaches in foreign policy. I don't think anyone wants to be dragged in a war with a regional power over the interest of the superpower an ocean away, and a lot are already likely losing money because of the whole mess.
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May 7, 2014 11:22
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Kurtofan posted:Seems pretty lovely to just let Putin's invasion go unpunished because we don't want to lose our sweet energy deals. I'm against war, but at least we should do something similar to Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions. Well, ever since the Italian government kindly helped France relieve them of their other privileged gas and oil supplier Lybia, violating several treaties in the process as well, I'd say we as a country have the full right to shut the gently caress up about Russia's foreign policy and thank them for having been able to heat our houses this winter too. I don't agree with Putin's expansionist ambitions either, believe me, but I still prefer foreign policy that puts us in a better spot overall, as opposed to idealistic or morally motivated postures. We've always been close to the Russian bloc, and we've always, one way or another, benefited from it. Now we are close to dependent on those diplomatic and trade ties with them and we are in no position to side against them. E: to clarify, I'm Italian and the 'we as a country' I'm referring to is Italy. Sorry if my phrasing is unclear. mortons stork fucked around with this message at 12:22 on May 7, 2014 |
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May 7, 2014 12:18
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LemonDrizzle posted:I don't think you can reasonably claim that your desire for cheap energy should trump the security and territorial integrity of other EU member states. Cheap energy is one of the few reasons Italy hasn't seen its economy and social order collapse completely, as opposed to the mild to severe political turmoil and recession it is now facing. Considering the EU is already teetering over the edge of the chasm, I wouldn't call this concern secondary. Also, since this has nothing to do with the elections I'll stop.
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May 7, 2014 14:25
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Mans posted:https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152829614042519&set=a.70689967518.97121.681952518&type=1&theater Looks like Tsipras Italy has finally given up on being elected, instead opting for going full 'self-aware-clowns-in-the-circus' metacommentary, which is extremely my poo poo. Truthfully though, they knew from the start they'd never get a seat, the past 4 months has been them announcing well-known people from important leftist publications/activist groups as candidates and them either pulling out after a week or denying the claim outright, wanting little to do with them. When asked why they kept nominating people they knew full well would refuse, the answer was 'for the good publicity'. I don't think much will come from their Italian branch, which narrows down the choice for voting to the Democratic Party. As much as I hate their centrist, sometimes milquetoast left stances, every other party with a chance to make it in is fully made up of clowns (forza italia, 5 star movement, lega nord). Also no, even that poo poo ain't par for the course in our politics and I hope they get relentlessly ridiculed for that.
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May 8, 2014 11:35
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LemonDrizzle posted:Didn't a former porn star get elected to the Italian parliament and offer to screw Saddam Hussein while in office? The only porn star I remember being elected was Ilona Staller in the Radical Party in 1987. For the record though, the Radical party has been the party campaigning for divorce and abortion legalization back in the '60s and '70s, and they have always gone the way of activism and provocation, doing obstructionism in Parliament and basically fighting a whole lot of battles about personal liberty. I think that's quite different from what you're referring to. And, I realize, living in the asylum it doesn't really look much like the inmates are running it until you get out and see it from outside, so that point about Berlusconi and Grillo is perfectly fair. But I stand by what I said: that promotion from Tsipras is either very good metacommentary or very idiotic last-minute campaigning.
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May 8, 2014 14:15
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Voter turnout is 57,2% in Italy, which I'm not gonna complain about in these times of general apathy.
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May 26, 2014 08:30
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:Were the results in Italy as bad as in France? I spoke to some of my French friends today and although they voted, they still feel ashamed. Somehow the centre-left party, which according to polls was getting at most 32%, got 40%, double its closest opponent and now is set to represent the biggest force in S&D. Not half bad.
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May 26, 2014 08:35
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:Italy elected socialists in record numbers, and France elects nationalist social conservatives. Did the votes get mixed up or something? the democratic party are not socialists by any stretch of the imagination and ran in the EPP during the past elections. Still, they are centre-left and since electing their new leader Renzi, are definitely starting to buck the trends. Adhering to S&D as opposed to the EPP was a risky move: could have alienated the catholic electorate and the catholic current in the party itself. Still, it paid off and I'm pretty okay with the results and hope it's a good indication of where the party is heading because for once, I like it.
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May 26, 2014 09:45
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Xoidanor posted:...and right there you hit the nail on the head. The reasons these nationalistic movements grow and are so popular among disenfranchised youth is because they feel that they have not been given exactly that. They feel that they're getting coldly shoved aside by a society that doesn't want them in favor of others who weren't even born in their countries. Also, everyone here's been making a whole lot of noise about immigrants for a long time while doing jack poo poo about it, especially during this last refugee emergency caused from the Arab Spring and the Syrian revolt, hoping the problem would solve itself. Guess what: it didn't and isn't going to solve itself and while doing nothing before simply let business and organized crime take advantage of the cheap unregulated labour, a lot of racist nationalist parties have jumped on a bandwagon yelling about those filthy browns stealing stuff (jobs, social housing, women etc) from the nationals; hell, the catchphrase of the day: "helping immigrants in their own countries" is pretty much code for "why can't we shoot down ships full of blacks? it's ok cause we're totally going to send food to their countries of provenance, pinky swear" Plus, immigrants are soon going to reach critical mass and start making demands for rights, making the whole arrangement unprofitable for business as well. The situation is getting shaky right now and we have to stop ignoring it. The EU as well has to stop turning a blind eye and start enacting policy, as that's the only way things are going to start moving.
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May 27, 2014 14:00
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Because germany has been salary dumping for the past 8 years to boost its exports at the expense of the rest of europe? E: also lol at germany not abusing fiscal policy, the guys who signed a bunch of economic pacts sayng they wouldn't who immediately started deficit spending for their welfare program, which was put under strain by the influx of new workers so poor they needed government assistance to survive mortons stork fucked around with this message at 06:41 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 06:32
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Private Speech posted:It is not exactly like there has been mass immigration into the southern states after the financial crisis, now is it? It has, actually. Specifically, the Arab Spring and a lot of countries plunging into chaos/civil war has been causing a pretty remarkable exodus of people from there. While the sea does take a whole lot of those who brave the journey, there's still need for sea patrols in the canal of Sicily (operation Mare Nostrum, also supposed to immediately arrest the human traffickers who run the traffic from africa to lampedusa) to rescue any boats coming and the entire processing infrastructure is so overloaded it's nearing humanitarian disaster, nor are there any resources to spare to improve it because we've been in recession for the past 5 years and we've been austering so hard we're cutting pay to private contractors after signing them on. All of this poo poo is expensive and ultimately the EU is basically paying 0 attention to it, which is why a lot of people are arguing they are being left to their own devices w/r/t the immigration issue.
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May 28, 2014 14:33
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KoldPT posted:Remind me again how Germany has become an economic juggernaut. I seem to be forgetful. "Minijobs" aka no benefit, below living wage jobs, subsidized by large welfare spending, essentially state-endorsed salary dumping. Approx. 30% of the workforce by now, there's no way anyone has the money to subsidize an industry in order to compete. That and leveraging dominant position in EU politics, favoring policies that benefit their export based economy.
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May 28, 2014 15:57
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Randler posted:Last time I checked Germany has been an economic juggernaut for far longer than "Minijobs" have been a thing. I'm also curious where you get that approximately thirty percent figure from. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/08/germany-jobs-idUSL5E8D738E20120208 Misremembered, it's 20%. quote:Data from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development shows low-wage employment accounts for 20 percent of full-time jobs in Germany Still, state-subsidized salary dumping obliterated competition in the past 8 years, and stability pacts prevent other countries from deficit spending themselves into competing.
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May 28, 2014 16:08
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Lagotto posted:That is not fear mongering, that is realism, because that is exactly what Greece should have negotiated for. Greece had a choice, staying within the restraints of the EMU or exit. Of course you can blame the Greek electorate for that. Actually, the moment Papandreou announced his plan to go ahead with a referendum w/r/t accepting those conditions or exiting the EMU he was forced to step aside within days. E: here's an article about the euro crisys and those fateful days when the Greek parliament formed a national unity government behind the back of its prime minister with a supposed parliamentary majority http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f6f4d6b4-ca2e-11e3-ac05-00144feabdc0.html#axzz332VEEbGL mortons stork fucked around with this message at 20:16 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 20:09
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Lagotto posted:Yes, under pressure of other Greek politicians if I recall correctly. It was specifically engineered by Barroso, as outlined in the article I posted.
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May 28, 2014 20:20
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Lagotto posted:
I was answering your previous post where you stated that the Greeks could have had a free vote in order to accept conditions imposed on them or get out, and I was contradicting that with the fact that their PM went from a stable parliamentary majority to having a national unity government engineered behind his back just as he proposed just such a vote as you were suggesting. It is loosely related to YF-23's point that German politics do have a huge influence over what happens in the rest of the Union, which you only need to look at ECB behaviour to prove, as a small (compared to the size of the disaster being averted) intervention to save Italy was fought tooth and nail against.
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May 29, 2014 12:35
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Lagotto posted:I am sorry, but that is not true at all, and you don't get to cherry pick from a chain discussion. Look back at my post: I specifically quoted the part I was answering to, which is not cherry-picking. You were talking out your rear end about the reality of Greece having any agency or a vote over what happened to them and that's what I felt I needed to address. The rest is a discussion you're having with someone else that I'm not involved with. Also, if Merkel gets to push a referendum on the greek government's table, then I don't understand how Papandreou being ousted for daring to have his own proposal (you know, as heads of sovereign states might have) is not proof of undue German influence.
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May 29, 2014 13:09
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Lagotto posted:You didn't even read your own article that much is clear. A vote was explicitly on the table and rejected by the Greek government. Papandreou was ousted not through German influence, but through Greek politics and some prodding by Barosso, after his insane proposal backfire. Again, the entire point being that it was not through German influence, and exactly why I dislike you cherry picking because you still haven't grasped the point I was trying to make in my interchange with YF-23. No, it is obvious you're not grasping the point, that the Greek government should have the right to do their 'insane proposal' and refuse whatever vote is put on their table by others, because that's what a sovereign government does. If the PM gets ousted for having 'insane proposals' (read: some french and german investors could lose money because of them) then your whole point of them making free decisions becomes moot, as obviously foreign interests override even an elected government's decisions. Also, if you think that German influence had nothing to do with that debacle, I don't know what to tell you. Like Barroso just wakes up one day and decides to oust another country's prime minister.
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May 29, 2014 13:27
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