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I said come in! posted:The screenshots, and what was in that video looked really promising for characters. It looks like it breaks the trend of Korean MMO characters. Absolutely. That character creator should allow a huge amount of variety. Now whether or not players taken advantage or not is something no developer can control. All they can do is provide lots of creative freedom.
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Apr 27, 2014 03:30
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Steparu article: http://www.steparu.com/previews/mmorpg/1548-black-desert-online-2nd-beta-review-in-progress-part-2 Has new gameplay videos and explains the open PvP system.
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Apr 29, 2014 15:41
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quote:In the previous beta, players were able to PK each other at level 30. This has now been changed to level 40 This does not sound anywhere near as bad as I originally imagined. Although it does not explain whether or not you can actually go down in level if you lose enough EXP. I hope not. As for losing items, it sounds like it is possible to avoid that entirely depending on how one manages their Karma points, and it sounds like if one chooses not to engage in Open World PvP much if at all then they will never lose items upon death.
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Apr 29, 2014 20:59
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The character generator I'd nice but how can they really expect to handle huge PvP battles if they have to keep track of all those components for 50+ people?
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Apr 29, 2014 21:07
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:The character generator I'd nice but how can they really expect to handle huge PvP battles if they have to keep track of all those components for 50+ people? I'm sure they limit the effects when large groups are together. Aion had a similar feature where it would lower enemy textures/stuff when large battles were occurring in sieges.
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Apr 29, 2014 22:04
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Using level of detail effectively should be relatively straightforward for parametric player models.
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Apr 29, 2014 22:08
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Xavier434 posted:This does not sound anywhere near as bad as I originally imagined. Although it does not explain whether or not you can actually go down in level if you lose enough EXP. I hope not. As for losing items, it sounds like it is possible to avoid that entirely depending on how one manages their Karma points, and it sounds like if one chooses not to engage in Open World PvP much if at all then they will never lose items upon death. Losing levels is an excellent system that fell out of use because it wasn't "nice". It helps weed out people who aren't ready for level cap content, in EQ you knew drat well that the guy at level cap was of decent capability. In WoW it was a total crapshoot whether or not the player behind the character was capable of the most trivial of actions. When you get docked hard for doing dumb things it puts up a glaring neon sign in your brain not to do it again.
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Apr 30, 2014 23:50
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YouTuber posted:Losing levels is an excellent system that fell out of use because it wasn't "nice". It helps weed out people who aren't ready for level cap content, in EQ you knew drat well that the guy at level cap was of decent capability. In WoW it was a total crapshoot whether or not the player behind the character was capable of the most trivial of actions. When you get docked hard for doing dumb things it puts up a glaring neon sign in your brain not to do it again. It also turns so many people off these days that no new mmo is fiscally sustainable if they are to include it. Not in the west at least. That is why it fell out of use. Not being "nice" had nothing to do with it. It is all about money. I learn and improve my skills in these games with or without harsh death penalties. Harsher penalties do nothing to change that. They just result in less fun for me.
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May 1, 2014 00:04
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Having a system that prevents PvP until a certain level, and then afterwards further increasing the risk associated with PvP just for those people who do it a lot seems like overkill. I never really understood outlaw systems like that. Isn't it enough to say that if you don't want open world PvP then don't play a game where that's a thing?
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May 1, 2014 00:38
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Xavier434 posted:It also turns so many people off these days that no new mmo is fiscally sustainable if they are to include it. Not in the west at least. That is why it fell out of use. Not being "nice" had nothing to do with it. It is all about money. How does it turn off people when it hasn't been a feature in an mmo for over 10 years? I seem to recall people being ecstatic about the difficulty and punishment involved with games like Dark Souls and Flappy Bird - to the point where many end up breaking their computers in their frustration over not being good enough. I really would like to see the data that supports your claim that gamers don't want to be challenged. Then again I suppose all the millions who keep buying Warcraft expansions are doing it for the story, not the exciting, new, unknown and (at least at first) semi-hard content. </sarcasm>
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May 1, 2014 06:29
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Not gonna lie, I know very little about how this game actually works, but I'm easily swayed by presentation, and I absolutely love that second trailer (I made everybody I know watch it a year ago) because of that awesome sense of adventure it captures. Also the day-to-day-life trailer that just game out shows they can do quiet ambient music just as well as they can do big dramatic scores. If nothing else, this will be an awesome world to wander around in.
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May 1, 2014 07:52
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I don't see why it would be less profitable to include separate servers with separate rulesets? I'd be surprised if they don't implement PVE servers but I don't see why PVP servers with penalties can't do well too. Trolling in Black Desert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxTod5yGjkg Rosscifer fucked around with this message at 09:35 on May 1, 2014 |
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May 1, 2014 09:29
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pertinent posted:How does it turn off people when it hasn't been a feature in an mmo for over 10 years? Challenging content and harsh death penalties are mutually exclusive features. People generally like being challenged especially when it is fun. Death penalties do not make content any more or less challenging. For many people, they just add to the frustration which is pointless in a video game if that is the only tangible result of the penalty. With that said, it is true that certain death penalties can alter a gamer's behavior and that can sometimes add to the fun for a lot of people. However, this is not a linear formula. Harsher penalties does not necessarily mean that behavior will change further and nor does it mean that any additional change which does occur is more fun for most people. You are correct that it has been a really long time since a death penalty as strict as losing levels has been in an MMO so we do not have any recent data to work with. However, what we do have is plenty of MMOs involving other lesser forms of death penalties and plenty of cases where players have expressed a lot of disgust if those penalties are deemed too harsh to the point where it just isn't enjoyable. Given those experiences, it is reasonable to assume that an even harsher death penalty is something that will be difficult for western players to swallow in an MMO. Also, people seem to mostly like Dark Souls because the content is hard and it feels very rewarding when overcome. It is not because the death penalty is so harsh. That part could be lessened and people would still love playing Dark Souls for the same reasons. Rosscifer posted:I don't see why it would be less profitable to include separate servers with separate rulesets? I'd be surprised if they don't implement PVE servers but I don't see why PVP servers with penalties can't do well too. It could work, but there are risks and sacrifices associated with dividing the player base like that. It's a tough choice. Xavier434 fucked around with this message at 14:56 on May 1, 2014 |
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May 1, 2014 14:50
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Xavier434 posted:You are correct that it has been a really long time since a death penalty as strict as losing levels has been in an MMO so we do not have any recent data to work with. However, what we do have is plenty of MMOs involving other lesser forms of death penalties and plenty of cases where players have expressed a lot of disgust if those penalties are deemed too harsh to the point where it just isn't enjoyable. Given those experiences, it is reasonable to assume that an even harsher death penalty is something that will be difficult for western players to swallow in an MMO. It seems like there's also been a growing popularity in multiplayer games with pretty steep death penalties though. Dark Souls, DayZ, and Rust are all in the top 10 sellers on steam. There's also been tons of freeshards made of MMOs to recreate the experience before developers decide to soften the game. Of course if a game does have death penalties some people are going to bitch about them. That doesn't mean there isn't a market for it.
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May 1, 2014 17:05
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McPantaloons posted:It seems like there's also been a growing popularity in multiplayer games with pretty steep death penalties though. Dark Souls, DayZ, and Rust are all in the top 10 sellers on steam. There's also been tons of freeshards made of MMOs to recreate the experience before developers decide to soften the game. Of course if a game does have death penalties some people are going to bitch about them. That doesn't mean there isn't a market for it. Today's MMOs need to appeal to the masses more in order to be fiscally sustainable. It is going to remain that way until someone figures out a way to make these kinds of games on a much smaller budget and still succeed. While I agree that there is a market for the reasons you are stating, it's just not the same thing for that reason. It also greatly depends on exactly what the penalty is and how one recovers from it. Losing levels is not going to be regarded as adding fun like some of the penalties in those other games you mentioned.
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May 1, 2014 17:39
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Xavier434 posted:Today's MMOs need to appeal to the masses more in order to be fiscally sustainable. It is going to remain that way until someone figures out a way to make these kinds of games on a much smaller budget and still succeed. While I agree that there is a market for the reasons you are stating, it's just not the same thing for that reason. It also greatly depends on exactly what the penalty is and how one recovers from it. Losing levels is not going to be regarded as adding fun like some of the penalties in those other games you mentioned. I don't think it's entirely true that they have to appeal to the masses. On the contrary if they had a little more focus and went deeper with fewer functions at first, they could attract a smaller but more stable and devoted userbase and then use that to grow. Being a smash hit AAA MMO with flashy producers and publishers and a fantastic marketing department, trying to get as many people in as possible, it only ends in disaster. A week after launch people are crying foul and the numbers drop by the hour leaving a shell of a game with a studio that's wasted a ton of money on unnecessary hardware. I mean think of all the fancy technology the AAA studios are trying to squeeze in, and the many fancy 3D rendered trailers and live-streams and showcases, and yet the MMOs that launch these days are hardly feature-comparable to World of Warcraft 1.0.
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May 1, 2014 18:59
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A huge part of the problem is that there is no one willing to finance what you are suggesting. The risks are considered to be too high at least with MMOs. There is more wiggle room in other genres. That could change but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Why would it? Also, hasn't what you are saying sort of been tried at least in the indie scene to some degree? Xavier434 fucked around with this message at 19:07 on May 1, 2014 |
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May 1, 2014 19:05
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Reduce costs overall by going from 3d to 2d. That way you can go niche and more innovative without risking too much money.
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May 1, 2014 19:18
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Xavier434 posted:What you are suggesting has been tried at least in the indie scene to some degree. A huge part of the problem is that there is no one is willing to finance what you are suggesting. The risks are considered to be too high at least with MMOs. There is more wiggle room in other genres. That could change but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Why would it? Appealing to the masses was great when there were relatively few MMOs out there. But now there's an over saturation with hundreds of WoW clones on the market. If there's a dozen ice cream stands on the beach eventually someone will take a risk and open one of those weird yogurt dots things.
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May 1, 2014 19:19
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Maybe. The bottom line is something like that has to give in order to make it work. Black Desert is not that game though. They are AAA. Not niche. Not small budget. They can't afford these kinds of risks so it really is for the best to leave that out of the picture.McPantaloons posted:Appealing to the masses was great when there were relatively few MMOs out there. But now there's an over saturation with hundreds of WoW clones on the market. If there's a dozen ice cream stands on the beach eventually someone will take a risk and open one of those weird yogurt dots things. That does not change the fact that these games are very expensive and they have to be fiscally sustainable. That means appealing to tons of people. There is no such thing as a successful "small start up" MMO right now. No one can secure financing for such a project unless they go very niche and make some pretty big sacrifices and even then it is really hard to get the money you need to fund your project entirely. I welcome risk takers and innovation, but it needs to be fiscally sound too or else it just won't make it. Xavier434 fucked around with this message at 19:25 on May 1, 2014 |
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May 1, 2014 19:22
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Xavier434 posted:That does not change the fact that these games are very expensive and they have to be fiscally sustainable. That means appealing to tons of people. There is no such thing as a successful "small start up" MMO right now. No one can secure financing for such a project unless they go very niche and make some pretty big sacrifices and even then it is really hard to get the money you need to fund your project entirely. I was saying with those top selling, less forgiving, steam games that the market might not be as niche as people assume. They just think it is because the business model has been "copy WoW's success" for a while now. Hopefully we'll see some companies succeed that differentiate a little, like Archeage. I'd just really like to see Black Desert do the same because I'm sick of tab targeting. edit: I actually think the percentages of xp loss is just fine the way it is listed. Really the only problem I see with the system is there isn't really a reason to go chaotic. If the only way you have a chance to drop items is by being chaotic, there's no incentive to kill non-chaotic characters. There has to be some reward associated with the risk you take. Non-chaotic should have a chance to drop items, but it should be a lower chance than chaotic players. McPantaloons fucked around with this message at 20:04 on May 1, 2014 |
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May 1, 2014 19:53
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Those top selling games are not raking it in because of harsh death penalties. I know plenty of players who have said that those penalties are part of the game that they put up with because the rest of the game is so darn good, but they would prefer a more forgiving penalty. Different strokes for different folks of course, but my point is that you cannot just look at those sales figures and immediately conclude that the penalties are a good feature that tons of people want. As far as Black Desert goes specifically, I am okay with an EXP loss. Just not if it also means a level loss too and I am not okay with item loss. I would also be okay if my enemy earns the EXP that I lose in exchange for the item loss removal.McPantaloons posted:Really the only problem I see with the system is there isn't really a reason to go chaotic. If the only way you have a chance to drop items is by being chaotic, there's no incentive to kill non-chaotic characters. There has to be some reward associated with the risk you take. Non-chaotic should have a chance to drop items, but it should be a lower chance than chaotic players. That's the idea though. It allows for a world where everyone is vulnerable past a certain level, but there is more incentive for those players who actually want to engage more in open world pvp to fight each other instead of fighting those who are less interested but are okay with it to a degree. They are trying something new in effort to strike a balance without dividing the player base by server. Beyond that, I am with you 100%. I am sick of the WoW model and I have enjoyed every MMO since at least to some degree which has tried to break away from it. I have given up on most of them for other reasons, but definitely not because they "aren't WoW". At the same time, I do think WoW did some things and still does some things right. Lessening the severity of death penalties being one of them. I am okay with experimenting with penalties but going back to an EQ style is not a good idea imo. vvvv I don't know if it is like Archeage since I have not played it but there is open world housing in Black Desert. There is a good video of it in the OP. Xavier434 fucked around with this message at 20:14 on May 1, 2014 |
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May 1, 2014 20:05
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The thing is that the current MMO market is mostly themeparks. Sandbox MMOs could be the next really big thing. Is there player housing and planting stuff like in Arche Age in thsi game?
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May 1, 2014 20:07
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McPantaloons posted:Appealing to the masses was great when there were relatively few MMOs out there. But now there's an over saturation with hundreds of WoW clones on the market. If there's a dozen ice cream stands on the beach eventually someone will take a risk and open one of those weird yogurt dots things. Those weird yogurt dot things tend to not do so well when it's the same thing that died 10 years ago. I agree that there's lots of room to innovate MMO games. I disagree that punishing players is the best way to do it. The punishment for dying should be that you died. Either you were ganked by someone much higher leveled than you or you died to mobs you shouldn't have. Grinding salt in the wound isn't a game mechanic, it's an outdated artifact of failed development ideas. Lucy Heartfilia posted:The thing is that the current MMO market is mostly themeparks. Sandbox MMOs could be the next really big thing. The player housing is instanced, but you can create a neighborhood with your friends and visit each other, and various plots will allow you to plant and harvest materials, along with jumping puzzles and different challenges that give costmetic gear, either furniture pieces or other doodads. It's nowhere near as sandboxy as archage, however.
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May 2, 2014 02:13
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So the sandpark Arche Age is more sandboxy than this game? What a disappointment.
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May 2, 2014 08:08
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I didn't see a single desert in the map fly through. Gotta say though I'm liking the low fantasy look of everything and it looked like there was some excellent ganking/world pvp terrain.
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May 2, 2014 11:05
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:So the sandpark Arche Age is more sandboxy than this game? What a disappointment. So I'm dumb, for some reason I thought this was the wildstar thread. The MMOs tend to run together after you spend 2 days bored between classes shitposting in MMO HMO. Housing in BLACK DESERT is noninstanced. Players buy houses in cities, but it looks like you don't have quite the same freedom with it as you do in something like archeage, or even the interior of your house in wildstar. Looks like you can turn parts of it into crafting stations or a bank area to hold excess crap or things like that. Steparu put up a video of him visiting different houses in the cities.
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May 2, 2014 16:25
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Oh, that's nice. And is there territory with ressources to fight over, too?
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May 2, 2014 16:32
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Oh, that's nice. And is there territory with ressources to fight over, too? No idea, but there is pigeon shooting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmSYRuliEjw
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May 2, 2014 16:53
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Rosscifer posted:I don't see why it would be less profitable to include separate servers with separate rulesets? I'd be surprised if they don't implement PVE servers but I don't see why PVP servers with penalties can't do well too. If there are different rule set servers I automatically (along with majority of other people who enjoy PvP) don't play. Every single game that had that was poo poo (on PvP servers) from the competitive standpoint. It's impossible for the studio to dedicate any resources to the minority or balance the minority (PvP) servers correctly when their focus is on themeparking people through quests and mob grinds. Then less people play on those servers, meaning less PvP servers, which then means even less attention is paid to them. Then the developers just say "welp I guess no one likes PvP". Hopefully this follows ArcheAge model and not WoW/EQ. Should be single ruleset that is well balanced by the developers. PvE, PvP, crafting, and sandbox elements co-existing. ~10,000 people already paid $150 just to access ArcheAge alpha in the US. That's for a free to play game when it's released in a few months. There is a market for PvP/sandboxy games if the developers actually make a decent one. Rad Russian fucked around with this message at 17:42 on May 2, 2014 |
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May 2, 2014 17:32
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Bauxite posted:Players buy houses in cities, but it looks like you don't have quite the same freedom with it as you do in something like archeage, or even the interior of your house in wildstar. Looks like you can turn parts of it into crafting stations or a bank area to hold excess crap or things like that. Steparu put up a video of him visiting different houses in the cities. We honestly have no clue how true this might be. Based on what little info we have right now (Steparu wandering around a player housing city while going in and out of lots of nearly empty homes), it looks more like the foundation for non-instanced player housing is in Black Desert, but all of the fun features that many of us would love to see incorporated in any player housing system are not yet released in closed beta. It would be silly to assume that there will not be more. We just have no idea how much more is in store for release. Could be very little or it could be more than anything we have seen in over 10 years of MMOs, but it is probably something in between. Who knows right now?
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May 5, 2014 20:12
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Xavier434 posted:We honestly have no clue how true this might be. Based on what little info we have right now (Steparu wandering around a player housing city while going in and out of lots of nearly empty homes), it looks more like the foundation for non-instanced player housing is in Black Desert, but all of the fun features that many of us would love to see incorporated in any player housing system are not yet released in closed beta. It would be silly to assume that there will not be more. We just have no idea how much more is in store for release. Could be very little or it could be more than anything we have seen in over 10 years of MMOs, but it is probably something in between. Who knows right now? I was correcting myself with as much information I could find on the subject. To be completely honest, PA hasn't even found a NA distributer for this game. There's no guarantee it will ever see the light of day in the west, so maybe a little bit of moderately researched speculation is okay? If we make zero assumptions then we don't have a whole lot to talk about at all.
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May 5, 2014 20:33
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I think you may have taken what I said a bit too critically. Anyways, that sucks to hear about there being no NA distributor yet. I had no idea. Here is to hoping!
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May 5, 2014 21:12
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It can't be as bad as what happened with ArcheAge.
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May 5, 2014 21:14
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Steparu went over some of the other mechanics in the game like trade routes and the pillaging that can be done from other players undertaking these things. Sounds like a more detailed version of AoWs running carts. He also touched up on the whole endless level thing. The game sort of soft caps your level to 50 (because you dont learn new abilities after that) but you can continue to gain levels to improve your stats and previous abilities. At level 40 you get to start evolving your abilities which gives them additional random effects such as more damage, faster attack, life leach. At level 50 you can sacrifice half of your exp (total?) to reshuffle your skills bonus. His cons are that the game is really grind heavy, doesnt bother him much but can probably see how it might not work well in other areas. Gear looks are really rare with most people looking similar, rarer looks come from world bosses. He thinks that some of the issues will probably work themselves out as the developers work more on the game and the extra classes are introduced. Apparently there are 4 more classes that are still in development, which are Wizard, Blader, Tamer and Valkyrie. He doesn't mention anything else about them but reading up on it seems that Wizard/Valkyrie are opposite gender versions of the Witch and the Fighter and that they have different attacks and playstyles from their other gender versions. Blader and Tamer are gender unique classes, one of them is a two handed weapon user and the other is a summoner/beastmaster type character.
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May 9, 2014 02:50
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I just hope that the Western version of this game is modified to reduce the grindy aspects. That would be well worth the investment if they are going to try and make it a success over here.
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May 9, 2014 13:32
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E: whoops
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May 9, 2014 18:37
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Where a lot of mmo developers make their games so they could run on toasters, this one is pretty much being done to absolutely destroy your rig if you really want to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra_gznSpDAg God drat this looks better than modded skyrim with more vegetation and better textures.
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May 11, 2014 21:02
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Where a lot of mmo developers make their games so they could run on toasters, this one is pretty much being done to absolutely destroy your rig if you really want to Well ArcheAge took about 2 years to make it over here so we all should have nice computers by the time this comes over. And I'm guessing Trion will take a close look at this if ArcheAge release is very successful.
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May 11, 2014 21:05
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Where a lot of mmo developers make their games so they could run on toasters, this one is pretty much being done to absolutely destroy your rig if you really want to Welp, i'm gonna have to wait for the PlayStation 4 version.
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