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Noose Induce
Dec 17, 2012

No matter what you post someone will think you are a retard.

*fucks fourteen year old unpaid maid and writes a manifesto of a form of government entirely dependent on the opposite form of government which it tries to get rid of*

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Oberleutnant
Apr 24, 2009

~~~~~Carl~~~~~


sounds good op how do we mplement this

e: do we all get 14 year olds or.....?

Noose Induce
Dec 17, 2012

No matter what you post someone will think you are a retard.

Oberleutnant posted:

sounds good op how do we mplement this

through murder

Ordrakon
Oct 7, 2013



*starves*

haunted bong
Jun 24, 2007


*gets murdered with icepick*

Stalins Moustache
Dec 30, 2012

~~**I'm Italian!**~~

comrade

Omi-Polari
Oct 4, 2012


the other night i read richard wright's essay about his experiences in the CPUSA and that was pretty great, esp. the part where he got kicked out for some byzantine reasons, then was beaten by a group of white communists in the street because he dared to join a may day march after he'd been expelled.

richard wright is one of the greatest black american writers of the 20th century by the way.

Stalins Moustache
Dec 30, 2012

~~**I'm Italian!**~~

here is a 5 page article on why a communist revolution will change everything to the better in the usa

Arian_Samurai
Jan 21, 2004

third place is still pretty damn good

I hope I get sent to the good labor camp

Omi-Polari
Oct 4, 2012


*eyes bulging*

*frantically waves makarov around*

*sweats*

"trotskyite scum!"

Noose Induce
Dec 17, 2012

No matter what you post someone will think you are a retard.

Omi-Polari posted:

white communists

Jonad
Oct 24, 2010

-Marissa Explains It All-


communism is basically the 19th century version of all those pasty white nerds jerking themselves off about ~the singularity~

Noose Induce
Dec 17, 2012

No matter what you post someone will think you are a retard.

burger was zay
pro lit tear eeyut

Deleuzionist
Jul 19, 2010

we respect the antelope; for the antelope is not a mere antelope


Jonad posted:

communism is basically the 19th century version of all those pasty white nerds jerking themselves off about ~the singularity~
when's october singularity?

Whiskey Sours
Jan 25, 2014

Weather proof.


*forms a drum circle*
oh yeah, look how much we're accomplishing without resorting to violence!
*gets skull bashed in by cops*

Burning Mustache
Sep 4, 2006

Zaeed got stories.
Kasumi got loot.
All I got was a hole in my suit.


*posts angrily on the internet*

Burning Mustache
Sep 4, 2006

Zaeed got stories.
Kasumi got loot.
All I got was a hole in my suit.


Jonad posted:

communism is basically the 19th century version of all those pasty white nerds jerking themselves off about ~the singularity~

icantfindaname
Jul 1, 2008




Sharkopath
May 27, 2009



communism is cool

Slipknot Hoagie
Jan 5, 2004



*licks fingers lasciviously*

Ableist Kinkshamer
Oct 20, 2007

I am false flagging the SJW propaganda so I can advance the goals of the gaming patriarchy by posting on the internet!

actually no lol, some rich faggot nerd got so mad and gave this spiffy new av to me.



marx was a proto-stalin who promoted utopian socialism

~ what a sadly large number of americans actually believe

icantfindaname
Jul 1, 2008



Marx was an economist from the 1840s and his work is about as valid as that of any other economist from the 1840s

which is to say sort of but not really. david ricardo and john stuart mill aren't on the cutting edge of econ today either

Oberleutnant
Apr 24, 2009

~~~~~Carl~~~~~


icantfindaname posted:

Marx was an economist from the 1840s and his work is about as valid as that of any other economist from the 1840s

which is to say sort of but not really. david ricardo and john stuart mill aren't on the cutting edge of econ today either

how does it feel to be a class traitor and an emeny of teh revolution

icantfindaname
Jul 1, 2008



Oberleutnant posted:

how does it feel to be a class traitor and an emeny of teh revolution

pretty great i must say

Ableist Kinkshamer
Oct 20, 2007

I am false flagging the SJW propaganda so I can advance the goals of the gaming patriarchy by posting on the internet!

actually no lol, some rich faggot nerd got so mad and gave this spiffy new av to me.



icantfindaname posted:

Marx was an economist from the 1840s and his work is about as valid as that of any other economist from the 1840s

which is to say sort of but not really. david ricardo and john stuart mill aren't on the cutting edge of econ today either

he's worse than hitler, too

Hogge Wild
Aug 21, 2012



A good post on fighting back against Koch influence FSU.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...50&userid=83359


Since there was interest.

The ďScience of LibertyĒ
Letís start with the root of the ideology, from the horses mouth.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=....55819444,d.b2I
http://www.philanthropyroundtable.o...arket_based_man



So whatís going on here. Charles Koch believes the natural world follows a set of (knowable) universal laws. He states that this comes from his engineering background at MIT. He then goes on to assert that human societies (making this a theory of history) also follow a set of universal laws. To Mr. Koch the laws that govern human society are markets and liberty. And they (markets and liberty) are one in the same. From this root Mr. Koch espouses several systematized ideas (built on the thought of the Austrian economists) among them MPA (market process analysis) and MBM (market based management), with the explicit end goal of universalizing these them to all of society. The end goal, to make all society more free and more wealthy.

So what is this?

Mr Koch is asserting that liberty/markets are the laws that underlie history and that we can know about them by being methodical in our examination (what is meant by his use of science). And that individuals can have/ or create a systematized description of those laws. More simply put the root of all this is an assertion that markets/liberty/freedom to are the Truth. And further that they have a saving character for society. This is all from the idea of:

Praxeology: praxis-logos (in a literal sense action - word/reason/truth then combined with the study of history.)

That's the foundation for the Austrian school. Mises, Rothbard, Hayak all use this idea. And Mr. Koch explicitly identifies these as his sources. Anyway Mises explicitly outlines the things I said were implied in the other thread (with jrodenfeld), that are a consequence of the nature of this root. It has these characteristics:
That the empirical conversation is a secondary conversation.
That it's a matter of soul and will. And he uses the phrase "ultimate end". Freedom being the implied ultimate end (to me this is to assert that freedom is God).
That the idea is hypostatized, he argues that this ideology is might in the world. And Mises ends the book where he describes praxeology out right stating:


That looks to me like: The wages of abandoning Austrian economics, the action-truth (praxis-logos) are death and the end.

So some applicable labels to describe this: religious, dualistic, apocalyptic, logocentric (again not Christian logocentric)

A Gospel of Liberty.

So what does that mean for how this ideology behaves, how it argues with other ideologies, and how can it be fought? In that itís a logocentric (not in the Christian sense, in the sense that it deals with Truth and a generative natural law ) construction itís probably going make arguments like other logocentric ideologies. Itís going to do universalizing apologia. To develop answer from the root to questions like these:


Itís going to attempt to use itís root assumption to explain how society works, while also attempting to force itís root assumption on society. When it argues with other ideologies itís not always going to make arguments that are empirical. Itís often going to make arguments that precede empirical talk, radical arguments. It argues from revelation but not external revelation, revelation from self reason (not reason in the sense of an exclusive rationality, but reason that includes will and soul). This is why Mr. Koch would fund programs in many universities,( and he has explicitly stated so) for the purpose of developing answers and explanations of reality consistent with markets and freedom. So make no mistake empirical arguments and academic research that come out of this, always have a conclusion first. This type of research examines data and supports a thesis already predetermined by the ideology. Much austerity research is of this type.

Through the medium, Under the norm

So what are the norms and language of this ideology? Business, particularly heavy industry, and systems engineering. Primarily Mr. Kochís line of thought is a theory of management (specifically so with MBM). He's written a couple of books on this (http://books.google.com/books/about...id=5sHXL8HBtUkC) It is a way to run a business, informed by the methods of systems engineering. In that context it is undeniably success (KII has grown to be the largest private owned company on the planet). This is itís medium. This is itís language. It is communicated in flowcharts and decision matrices governed by equations and statistics (eg. of a matrix, there might be individual, firm and society on one axis, things like Decision Rights, Knowledge Processes, Incentives, etc along the other. The whole thing filled in with things like property rights, self fulfillment, creative destruction etc.) So to know what's being said that's the language one has to understand, which also implies it's audience (the business community.)

Soteriology


What Mr. Koch is proposing here is he wants you to think in the manner that he thinks. This does not mean that he wants you to have and identical belief set, the same beliefs he has. What it means is that he wants the meta way you think about the world to be like the meta way he thinks about the world. He wants you to have a new perception of reality, which is to say a new reality. One might call that new life. The implied promise is salvation, and not just for individuals but for the world. What that means is that this ideology differs from the sister ideology of objectivism in fundamental way. Objectivism basically reduces to "gently caress you, get mine" (or I am free to). The character of this is different it's more like: I have been to the mountain top of "gently caress you" and if you join me we'll all get ours, (or if we are all more free to the world will be better.)

Ok so why does all of this matter. Charles Koch funds an assload of things. Importantly Heritage and large chunks of the tea party. When one starts running down the list it gets ugly and worrying: Scott Walker (and thus an indirect connection to R. Preibus) the Tea Party, Americans for Prosperity. A comprehensive wiki list is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politi...e_Koch_brothers
But many of the arguments made by the GOP reflect this ideology. A specific example. Take the criticism of the Affordable care act. Republican rhetoric is along the line of ďitís a lead airplaneĒ. They generally donít make empirical data based arguments. The gist of what they are stating is: This isnít from the Truth (idealized freedom), therefore it will fail. Theyíll go on to say things like, we donít have to argue for why it needs to be repealed because eventually the American people will be against it (implied eventual conversion, that "A change in the way we think" ) Watch the GOP talking points on the Sunday shows in terms of how Iíve described the characteristics of how Mr. Koch thinks.

While I'm starting the thread about Mr. Koch, any analysis of the related ways of thinking (ideologies present in the GOP or Tea Party) I think would be on topic to the thread. Other topics directly relevant: How to go after it from other perspectives. And how it goes after other ideologies.

Edit:

Collection of things linked to in the thread:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=....55819444,d.b2I Letter by C. Kock
http://www.philanthropyroundtable.o...arket_based_man Market Based Man article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politi...e_Koch_brothers Wiki of Koch funded politics
http://www.learnliberty.org/ Koch funded "liberty education website"
http://www.thenation.com/article/17...-hayek?page=0,0 Corey Robin on the Austrians and Nietzche
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...065e_story.html On Koch money raising
http://www.jbs.org/fred-koch John Birch Society on the father Fred Koch
http://www.freetheworld.com/ Frasier institute freedom metrics
http://www.kosmosonline.org/onlinep...m_campaign=OCDS advancing Science of Liberty academic programs
http://www.motherjones.com/politics...s-seminar-tapes biannual Koch fundraising event insights
http://www.motherjones.com/politics...rothers-seminar more biannual Koch fundraising event insights
http://images2.americanprogressacti...kochmeeting.pdf leaked agenda of fundraising meetings
http://www.kochfacts.com/kf/ Koch Facts website
http://www.kochind.com/Newsroom/discovery.aspx Discover newsletters KII newsletter
http://www.kochind.com/Newsroom/EconomicFreedom.aspx Economic Freedom reading list, the canon
http://www.kochind.com/files/AJB02-...tyQuestions.pdf twenty questions with C. Koch
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/us/05koch.html?_r=0 NYT interview with D. Koch
http://www.thenation.com/article/16...social-security C. Koch trying to get Hayek to come to IHS and also get SS and medicare
http://www.kochfamilyfoundations.org/locations.html Map of universities they donate to
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/u...tance.html?_r=0 NYT on Rand Paul and Mises and Libertarians in general
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3gwyHNo7MI Documentary on Soviet Union and scientific management
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...o-Koch-Brothers Freedom Industries ties to Kochs
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC3L8QaxqEGUiBC252GHy3w Stefan Molyneux youtube page
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2005/11/...d-violentcrime/ stateless societies and violent crime
http://mises.org/daily/2568/ Mises on Children pretty horrific read
http://www.theyrule.net/ About interlocking directorates, and the small number of people on them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pujo_committee More interlocking directorate
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...d-offshore.html Rich fleeing tax shelters as money is gone after
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/..._n_3179139.html inequality and off-shoring wealth
http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/02/ch...nomy-trade.html Chinese savings and marriage
http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/ more interlocking directorates stuff
http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power_elite/ more interlocking directorates stuff
http://thekronies.com/ cartoon libertarian awareness campaign
http://www.linkedin.com/company/chimera-global-holdings back-story for "Kronies"
http://arstechnica.com/uncategorize...ecause-we-care/ Telco suing small town for about public high speed internet
http://muninetworks.org/tags-103 Blog on municipal high speed networks
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/o...party.html?_r=0 NYT editorial on Koch money in politics
http://www.tampabay.com/news/busine...-raises/1168680 Koch money and FSU

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/allen..._b_4868203.html Radicals in Sheep's clothing
http://www.adamsmith.org/
http://www.propublica.org/article/w...tent=1395097124 - on the Koch political network and funding how it's controlled through small obscure llcs
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtoAvSlWxNE[/url] - Johnathen Meades on Stalinism, folksy atheism and reaction
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/03/u...ns.html?hp&_r=1 - Supreme court decision on campaign finance NYT possible pay-wall
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles...0515021286.html - Wall street Journal Editorial by Mr. Koch
http://www.c-span.org/video/?c44946...s-koch-brothers - above editorial being read aloud in the Senate

Clamps McGraw
May 6, 2009

Alberta Crab Sands

I can never remember where the unironic actual goon communists post any more, they usually tie with the what are you wearing thread in YLLS for funniest thread forumwide

icantfindaname
Jul 1, 2008



Clamps McGraw posted:

I can never remember where the unironic actual goon communists post any more, they usually tie with the what are you wearing thread in YLLS for funniest thread forumwide

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...hreadid=3543938

Burning Mustache
Sep 4, 2006

Zaeed got stories.
Kasumi got loot.
All I got was a hole in my suit.



kill urself


Clamps McGraw posted:

I can never remember where the unironic actual goon communists post any more, they usually tie with the what are you wearing thread in YLLS for funniest thread forumwide

d&d


e:fb

The Droid
Jun 11, 2012



How to spot communists

redshirt
Aug 11, 2007

Hailing frequencies

*is a skilled mechanic


Assigned to thresh wheat.

butplug accident
Jul 9, 2009



Jonad posted:

communism is basically the 19th century version of all those pasty white nerds jerking themselves off about ~the singularity~

ColoradoCleric
Dec 26, 2012


Post length in the marxism thread has a negative correlation to a coherent argument

ColoradoCleric
Dec 26, 2012


Also its really easy to bait owlbot2000 into posting a 12 page essay where he explains nothing but constantly postulates "capitalism bad" and "communism good"

Oberleutnant
Apr 24, 2009

~~~~~Carl~~~~~


ColoradoCleric posted:

a 12 page essay where he explains nothing but constantly postulates "capitalism bad" and "communism good"
he right tho

in a communist society id be the guy who dies in a re-education camp because i was the first person to stop cryng when its announced that the dear leader died, or didnt express enough joy as his birthday or something

The Droid
Jun 11, 2012



Obama's America, 2016

ColoradoCleric
Dec 26, 2012


A 2% rise in the standard of living over the inflation rate is a failing of capitalism.

ColoradoCleric
Dec 26, 2012


wateroverfire posted:

When anything goes wrong in a capitalist country: It's capitalism.

When anything goes wrong in a socialist/communist/whateverist country: Woah woah woah it's complicated and you have to look at the local topography and how history has played out and the cultural elements stemming from x y and z and you know do they even Marxism bro? Do they REALLY?

Then the inevitable retreat into "hey man it's a POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY not intended to be scientific or predict the world or anything back off ok" so that no bad outcomes can ever be connected with flaws in the Marxist worldview.

Ableist Kinkshamer
Oct 20, 2007

I am false flagging the SJW propaganda so I can advance the goals of the gaming patriarchy by posting on the internet!

actually no lol, some rich faggot nerd got so mad and gave this spiffy new av to me.




this, but the other way around, and unironically

also

*makes fun of perceived aspects of communism that are actually worse under capitalism but is too sheltered and oblivious to realize it*

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Redleg
Jul 7, 2003

What an odd looking.....Figurine

Communists are worse than Christians for smug self righteousness and evangelism. I would support a candidate who advocated for their due process extermination.

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