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organism posted:Just to clear up some of the ideological stuff that has been poorly explained in the anime, Blanche's argument is that it's unfair that magician's are automatically given preferential status in society because of natural born talents. Tatsuya's objection is that the preferential treatment is not guaranteed because, despite inborn talent, it actually takes a lot of education and hard work to make that talent useful and it's only after all that work that magician's are given preferential treatment. Which holds true for any profession really. Just because someone has a talent for math or sports doesn't mean they automatically become a top scientist or athlete. None of that changes the fact that a large portion (most?) of the population would never have those opportunities to begin with. It's like saying that it's okay for white people to be richer/more successful than minorities because they still have to work hard.
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May 2, 2014 08:53
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Ytlaya posted:None of that changes the fact that a large portion (most?) of the population would never have those opportunities to begin with. It's like saying that it's okay for white people to be richer/more successful than minorities because they still have to work hard. Imagine being born to a rich family, and you want to start up as a florist or someshit, but you can't because your bloodline dictates that your career options include: -Soldier -Doctor Sure, the majority of the population can't be doctors, but they have a lot more than two or three career pathways.
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May 2, 2014 08:58
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The funny part is, a lot of magicians get shunted off to the military but they still end up wealthy somehow. The peculiar elitism which pervades this setting includes the military in the upper crust of society. In other words, imperial japan wankery. Besides, it isn't like all of these magicians come from normal families and end up rich. They were born wealthy, and all of the training and resources that magicians need to function is provided by either their families or the government at no charge. The magicians are elites, and they are born just plain superior to those worthless proles.
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May 2, 2014 13:15
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HiveCommander posted:Imagine being born to a rich family, and you want to start up as a florist or someshit, but you can't because your bloodline dictates that your career options include: In that case couldn't the person in question just run away from home to try to start their flower shop or even just get a job at one? Heck, that would probably put them in the same situation as those poor people with career freedom.
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May 2, 2014 15:44
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Serious Frolicking posted:The funny part is, a lot of magicians get shunted off to the military but they still end up wealthy somehow. The peculiar elitism which pervades this setting includes the military in the upper crust of society. In other words, imperial japan wankery. So, the anime version of the original Starship Troopers book? Edit: Not that it's a good thing really, but it's not something I'm bothered by, at least. There's more to Imperial Japan then just the military. Only the ten clans are especially notable. Most still do come from relatively normal families. WickedHate fucked around with this message at 17:29 on May 2, 2014 |
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May 2, 2014 16:59
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HiveCommander posted:Imagine being born to a rich family, and you want to start up as a florist or someshit, but you can't because your bloodline dictates that your career options include: While it's not ideal to not have the freedom to do whatever you want, it's still pretty much a "first world problem" compared with the multitude of non-magic-talented individuals who presumably have to deal with things like poverty/unemployment. The "Class 1" people in this show certainly don't seem to be upset about their situation.
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May 2, 2014 17:22
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Srice posted:In that case couldn't the person in question just run away from home to try to start their flower shop or even just get a job at one? Heck, that would probably put them in the same situation as those poor people with career freedom. In that instance, they wouldn't be complaining about "those rich assholes", because they know that it's not so grand to have your entire future dictated by your bloodline.
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May 2, 2014 18:18
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However, one thing you should keep in mind is that magic, careers based on magic, and most especially military careers based on magic are almost always portrayed as wonderful things to do with your life.
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May 2, 2014 21:22
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Considering all the sneaky bullshit that goes on in their world (and it doesn't really address it because "magic is awesome, who wouldn't want to use their powers for killing?") being skilled at magic but not conforming to the system would probably lead to either: 1) Being kidnapped by a Japanese Government research lab to "make you useful to your nation". 2) Being kidnapped by a foreign Government for research and/or genetic material. Like I said in another post, there's some genetics sperg going on in this series with how magic is inherited. It's kinda like, I guess, ninja stories in that regard? In that certain families of magicians have figured out or have established a hereditry bloodline of being really really good at one type of magic. For example the Ichijou family is really good at killing people because their magic is focused towards making fluids boil. So they explode people. If someone from that family decided they didn't want to do that even though they were really good at it they'd either be kidnapped and imprisoned by their own family, kidnapped and imprisoned by another family/one of the Japanese government labs, or kidnapped by a foreign nation for research into what is effectively Japanese military secrets. It isn't so much that mages lack much choice, it's that you're either a soldier/lab rat for your own nation as a magician or you're a lab rat for another nation. If you go along with the system you're fine, if you oppose it you're hosed. Mages are weapons in this world and a mage that doesn't want to be a weapon for "you" is a liability or a threat. Amazingly for a Japanese Nationalist spiel, this (mages are weapons) is actually considered a bad thing by multiple people, including Gary Stu who wants to break the system (because it would free him and his sister, why else did you think?). Edit: Or rather, the concept of mages being forced to be weapons rather than the concept of mages being capable of doing damage as weapons. Because Gary Stu is a serial offender for the latter. SorcerousHam fucked around with this message at 21:45 on May 2, 2014 |
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May 2, 2014 21:28
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HiveCommander posted:In that instance, they wouldn't be complaining about "those rich assholes", because they know that it's not so grand to have your entire future dictated by your bloodline. Yeah but it's really hard to make that sort of thing sympathetic! There's a reason why the "rich person forced into a certain lifestyle by their parents" trope in stories usually goes with an arranged marriage to someone they don't care about. Kinda hard to care about someone not getting their ~ideal job~ when they live a life of luxury and have a lot of freedom other than that.
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May 2, 2014 21:32
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I'm actually somewhat in sympathy with Tatsuya and friends on this point, because I'm a pretty squeamish person who wouldn't want to be a surgeon or soldier for any amount of money.
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May 2, 2014 23:45
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Serious Frolicking posted:However, one thing you should keep in mind is that magic, careers based on magic, and most especially military careers based on magic are almost always portrayed as wonderful things to do with your life. Of course they would show it that way. In Australia, everyone was fine with conscription during WWI because we'd never been to war before and the government made it sound romanticized as hell. If people knew what war was really like, people would've been jumping through hoops to get out of it. There was no "being conscripted will mean you'll likely catch various diseases, spend months in confined and unhygenic trenches, lose limbs or even your life" disclaimer at the time. If something is made compulsory by the government, they're not going to tell you about the bad things it involves, it's just counter-intuitive. Srice posted:Yeah but it's really hard to make that sort of thing sympathetic! There's a reason why the "rich person forced into a certain lifestyle by their parents" trope in stories usually goes with an arranged marriage to someone they don't care about. Kinda hard to care about someone not getting their ~ideal job~ when they live a life of luxury and have a lot of freedom other than that. It's already been stated, but magicians kinda do have arranged marriages to an extent. Not only being forced into a job you'll probably not enjoy for the rest of your life, but having to marry another person you probably have no emotional connection to solely because together you can make more wizard babies isn't exactly my ideal life, but I'm sure there's some people out there would love to just have a job and a partner, even if they don't like either 
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May 3, 2014 03:06
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I didn't say that the setting made military service seem neat, but rather that the characters do. I think Tatsuya has killed like 100k people by now, most of them chinese.
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May 3, 2014 04:14
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Their opinion of being shoehorned into a career hasn't been elaborated in the anime or manga so far, they're just on their own little power trips because teenagers are arrogant by nature. Given the spoilers elsewhere in this thread, the second part seems very believable though.
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May 3, 2014 04:55
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As silly as the protagonist in this series is, I really enjoy incredibly overpowered main characters sometimes.
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May 3, 2014 05:22
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Pyronic posted:As silly as the protagonist in this series is, I really enjoy incredibly overpowered main characters sometimes. Mondaiji would also be right up your alley if you like overpowered MCs
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May 3, 2014 05:24
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So just caught up to the series, ep. 4 looks like the hypernationlism is going to pick up hard with the secret anti-magic organization trying to destroy Japan's greatness. Other then that, is it just me or does this show move extremely slow? 4 episodes in and literally nothing of interest has happened besides Gary Stu showing off (which is pretty fun to watch) between scenes of his sister shamelessly hitting on him and freezing the local area whenever he "flirts" with another girl.
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May 3, 2014 06:43
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Mondaiji is polite enough to make the overpowered character not warp the fabric of the show so that everything revolves around his overpowered rear end
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May 3, 2014 14:39
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Phobophilia posted:Mondaiji is polite enough to make the overpowered character not warp the fabric of the show so that everything revolves around his overpowered rear end He is also a jerk that people acknowledge as being a jerk instead of spontaneously falling in love with him or automatically turning into his lackey. Mondaiji is self-aware, colorful and humorous. Everyone should go watch that instead of this crap if you haven't already.
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May 3, 2014 18:27
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seems to be an awful lot of serious and earnest posting about this creepy anime that everyone decided to watch "for the lols." well in the words of ADTRW's favorite anime of this past decade im here with a warning. Don't Lose Your Way
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May 4, 2014 04:16
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jokes on you i dropped it weeks ago im just here for the shittalk
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May 4, 2014 05:11
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Phobophilia posted:jokes on you i dropped it weeks ago im just here for the shittalk Same. I feel a little sorry for anyone who's still actually watching.
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May 4, 2014 05:36
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Silver2195 posted:Same. I feel a little sorry for anyone who's still actually watching. I still like it, but the "you aren't really discriminated at all" aspects of the latest episode is a little uncomfortable here, if it really is meant to reflect real life. Today's episode should at least ease the complaint about villain's not believing their ideology, since Sayaka and other pawns of Blanche apparently do, and a lot of time was spent on debating the issue.
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May 4, 2014 06:02
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Silver2195 posted:Same. I feel a little sorry for anyone who's still actually watching. Eh, I skipped a lot of ep 3/4 because nothing was happening. I'm hoping that later in the series that nationalism picks waaaaay up and makes it fun to watch.
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May 4, 2014 06:21
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I got about 5 minutes into this episode, then I wondered why I was still watching. I answered that question by turning it off and playing video games.
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May 4, 2014 06:50
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Silver2195 posted:Same. I feel a little sorry for anyone who's still actually watching. I only saw the first 3 episodes since I sometimes watch bad anime (and other things) with a friend, and if I see more it will only be under those circumstances. His response was more or less "This is even worse than the time you made us watch RWBY". Which is rather hard to dispute, because I can't even think of a single positive thing to say about this show. Not even a damning with faint praise sort of compliment. I'm generally at a loss for words. Heck, to name another power fantasy in the same vein, at least Sword Art Online's first episode had an actual hook. That show had so many problems but at least its first episode could give a reason to tune into the second. This show has just been amazingly dull in ways I never thought possible.
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May 4, 2014 15:59
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I'm watching this seriously and unironically
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May 4, 2014 22:50
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I read the entire series of ln's and am continuing to watch this show. I am completely obsessed with this horrible thing. Don't become like me.
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May 4, 2014 23:02
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I'm pretty sure the dim-witted author at some point read one of Narita Ryohgo's works (probably Baccano) and, after trying to absorb the craziness of the plot, he said (spoilers for the first two arcs of the Baccano novels / a good chunk of the anime) “I can make a character like Claire Stanfield and turn him into the definite main!” And then this whole dull mess was unleashed upon us. Like many dudes have said before: There are neat ideas about the whole setting, but the whole thing is squandered when you have such a boring set of characters and zero actual conflict. On the other hand I hope that this show becomes successful enough so that Madhouse can finally get their mojo flowing and focus on finishing Satoshi Kon's last movie. A man can dream, right? 
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May 5, 2014 01:23
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pentyne posted:Eh, I skipped a lot of ep 3/4 because nothing was happening. I'm hoping that later in the series that nationalism picks waaaaay up and makes it fun to watch. The most recent episode had even less happening it seemed. Got like 8 minutes through it and stopped watching. Imagine a 9000 word effort post in D&D and that's what the episode seemed like.
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May 5, 2014 04:36
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Okay I caught up on this and I think it's a thing I'm hate watching with a friend now because jesus gently caress, the last two episodes transformed this from a really dull show to a straight up deplorable one. I don't blame Madhouse for getting paid to animate this but gently caress this author. The main character is 100% unsympathetic (which would be fine if it was intentional, but it's not) and I'm genuinely cheering for the "bad guys". I mean seriously the author would rather have the oppressed be terrorists as a convenient way to avoid addressing their points, and that's to say nothing of the main character's "gently caress the poor" stance. I know that it was mentioned earlier in the thread that they don't believe in their cause, but that's horseshit because it's just a dumb way for the writer to set up a gigantic strawman (and, again, to avoid actually debating the completely legitimate points they bring up). e: Also, the rants about how people who are anti-magic use magic really reminded me of this: 
Srice fucked around with this message at 07:44 on May 5, 2014 |
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May 5, 2014 07:14
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 meanwhile, in magic tokyo, an old timey future magic version of tokyo,
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May 5, 2014 07:32
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Srice posted:
The last episode was almost nothing but debating it, and Mayumi wanting to end the discrimination among students.
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May 5, 2014 13:43
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WickedHate posted:The last episode was almost nothing but debating it, and Mayumi wanting to end the discrimination among students. Oh, yeah, that "debate" where one side spoke for two seconds before resorting to hilariously overdone violence. Not joking, you really need to read, and think seriously about, letters from a birmingham jail, because everything the silly girl talks about up on stage is basically the dumb feel goodery every population in a position of power says to the powerless. I can guarantee you this show is commenting on the nature of equality and disenfranchisement as it pertains to real life, and it's not just a dumb show, it's morally disgusting in pretty much every single way you can imagine. I sincerely hope you're just too young to understand this, and I also sincerely hope this show is only popular in japan because of the gratuitous incest angle. The alternative is a bummer to think about Tarranon fucked around with this message at 15:45 on May 5, 2014 |
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May 5, 2014 15:41
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drat anime is deep.
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May 5, 2014 16:21
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Namtab posted:drat anime is deep. Deep like Triumph of the Will.
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May 5, 2014 17:33
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WickedHate posted:The last episode was almost nothing but debating it, and Mayumi wanting to end the discrimination among students. And earlier there was that chat about how those people who want equality are just too gosh darned emotional about it and if only they would look at it rationally they would understand. And her speech was more or less just telling everyone to stop using slurs, at which point the opposition responded by bombing the school.
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May 5, 2014 17:45
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Srice posted:And earlier there was that chat about how those people who want equality are just too gosh darned emotional about it and if only they would look at it rationally they would understand. No, the terrorist organization manipulating the Course 2 students bombed the school. Some may have helped, but they are just being jerked around. The point of it is that Blanche is convincing them the school discriminates when it's mostly just the Course 1 students, but Mayumi also comments on how it's unfair only Course 1 students an be on the council and I am pretty sure I saw a spoiler saying that policy is revoked eventually.
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May 5, 2014 17:51
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WickedHate posted:No, the terrorist organization manipulating the Course 2 students bombed the school. Some may have helped, but they are just being jerked around. The point of it is that Blanche is convincing them the school discriminates when it's mostly just the Course 1 students, but Mayumi also comments on how it's unfair only Course 1 students an be on the council and I am pretty sure I saw a spoiler saying that policy is revoked eventually. Yeah but I'm just reading between the lines here. Sure it's like that on the surface but it wasn't a debate, the people for equality didn't get a chance to respond and instead the people that represented them (not literally representing, but in sense that they have the same views) bombed the school. Or, to put it another way, why did the author write this scene such that the people who are for equality were not allowed to bring up a counterpoint in the debate? And I don't mean the in-setting justification, that's just a cop-out. That's like saying an anime isn't catering to pedophiles because the girl who looks 8 that's being sexualized is actually 8000 years old. Srice fucked around with this message at 18:02 on May 5, 2014 |
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May 5, 2014 17:56
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Srice posted:
Because, for the purposes of the story, the Course 2 students are just being used as convenient tools. Narratively, the issue is just a means for the students to be controlled. As it's pointed out, the school doesn't actually discriminate against them and when it's asked how they do Sayaka can't come up with anything. It's just a way for the bad guy to get their claws into the school.
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May 5, 2014 18:18
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