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Who will you be voting for?
A Liberal
A Progressive Conservative
A New Democrat
A Comedy Option
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Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)
Hello Ontarians and concerned observers: we're doing it again. The Lieutenant Governor will call an election for June 12th.

Major Issues: (will expand later)
  • Ethics: the Liberals have been embroiled in an ethics scandal surrounding the natural gas plants they had cancelled, and hiding the true cost of the same cancellation. It's not debatable that they handled this poorly, but the cancellation itself was going to happen - every party campaigned on it to appeal to NIMBYs
  • Power mix: Ontario currently boasts an almost 80% power mix of renewables, hydro and nuclear. In an attempt to expand the renewables portion, the McGuinty Liberals introduced a feed in tariff system that costs a lot, and has not had nearly the same success in Ontario as it has in Germany or Australia. The PCs have vowed to scrap it.
  • Unions: Tepid support for the NDP has basically vanished, even Sid Ryan of the OFL was urging Horwath to move forward on the budget rather than call an election. Unifor is now a major player versus the PCs, and was formed from the merger of CEP and CAW.
We're most likely going to end up talking ideological approaches to government, as the PCs are now pushing a "small government" agenda that could have been written by an Orange County Republican, while the Wynne Liberals and NDP are advocating infrastructure investment, higher taxes on upper incomes, and some social welfare fixes, such as the minimal raise of the minimum wage.

In Canadian politics thread tradition, here are the major players, listed in order of polling as of May 2nd:

Kathleen Wynne

  • Leader of the Liberal minority
  • Succeeded Dalton McGuinty, who was drummed out by the gas plant scandal that subsequently tarnished her reputation
  • Gay, not that there's anything wrong with that

Timothy Hudak

  • Leader of the Progressive Conservatives
  • Has disowned the progressive part of his party name
  • Small government, right to work, pro-privatization

Andrea Horwath

  • Leader of the New Democratic Party
  • Forced the election
  • Not going to win, deal with it, imagine a Rae Day stomping on a human face forever
Rabble: Ontario budget 2014, not quite a May Day budget

quote:

You may be forgiven for feeling like you already know what's in the 2014 Ontario budget -- it had more leaks than a sieve in the weeks leading up to budget day.

There weren't really any big surprises in the budget, but reading it in its entirety makes one thing crystal clear: the Wynne government is getting election battle ready. This is very much an election budget. It gives multiple nods to NDP Leader Andrea Horwath's insistence that middle-income Ontarians be spared tax and fee increases. It extends the 2012 NDP-driven deal to implement a small marginal tax on Ontario's richest 0.2 per cent of tax filers. Now the Ontario government is asking the richest 2 per cent of tax filers -- those earning $150,000 or more -- to contribute a little more.

That means if your taxable income is from $150,000 to $220,000, the government is asking you to pay an additional 1 per cent marginal tax on earnings in that range. With the surtax, that'll increase the rate by 1.56 per cent. If you earn between $220,000 and $500,000 the government is asking you to pay an additional 3.12 per cent marginal tax. To underline just how high we are in the nosebleed section of the income scale, the government takes pains in the budget to specify that 98 per cent of Ontarians will not be affected by this measure. So middle-class Ontario can relax now.

There are a few small tax increases worth mentioning: a small increase in aviation fuel tax; a tax increase in cigarettes as part of a "Smoke-Free Ontario Strategy"; and revenue tools dedicated to transit and transportation improvements.

What's encouraging about these revenue options: the Ontario government appears ready to start a conversation about the value proposition of taxes, albeit timidly. Asking the richest 2 per cent to contribute more in the wake of a worldwide recession that battered Ontario isn't exactly bold, but it is a start. And it opens up a conversation about how the progressive income tax system can be used to redistribute income -- one of many tools in the toolkit available to reduce income inequality in Ontario. And given that Ontario is the second worst province in Canada (next to oil-blessed Alberta) for the income gap between the richest 1 per cent and the rest of us, this is a conversation whose time has come. Fuel and gas taxes haven't gone up since 1992, incredibly, despite mounting concerns about climate change. The aviation tax is chump change comparatively, but it opens up a discussion about how governments can turn to revenue tools to nudge desirable behavioural outcomes. Pair it with dedicated revenue tools to expand and improve public transit, and we have the beginning of a conversation about the role taxation can play in addressing environmental concerns -- let alone gridlock.

But before the tax deniers get too heated, the most important thing you need to know about the price of 15 years of tax cuts is on page 149 and 150 of the Ontario budget:
  • Ontario's per capita program spending in 2012-13 was the lowest in all of Canada -- it's provinces like Saskatchewan and Newfoundland that are leading the way in supporting their population with public services;
  • Ontario's total revenue per capita in 2012-13 was the lowest in all of Canada -- it's provinces like Saskatchewan and Newfoundland that are leading the way in revenue capture. So what does that mean for Ontarians?
First of all, it means the Wynne government isn't exactly ending the austerity budgeting program it inherited from its predecessor. In fact, Budget 2014 shows just how seriously the 2012 Drummond report recommending 362 spending cuts has been taken as bible at Queen's Park: the government is now 80 per cent of the way through implementing those cuts. Program expenses in 2013-14 are planned to be $587 million lower compared to the 2013 budget forecast. In fact, page 145 of the budget says "the government has undertaken an expenditure review to find greater efficiencies and is projected to exceed its 2013-14 year-end savings target by over 50 per cent."

And page 154 of the budget shows a chart illustrating how Ontario's public sector wage settlements are well below those in the private, federal and municipal sector average increases.

Secondly, in case you're wondering how a government can cut so much in public service spending and still grapple with a lingering $12.5 billion deficit in 2014, the answer lies in the cumulative revenue loss in 2013 to the spate of tax cuts implemented from Mike Harris on down. Ontario lost $19 billion to cumulative tax cuts in 2013. The budget documents say total revenue in 2013-14 is estimated to be $1.19 million below the amount projected in the 2013. Why? "The decrease is largely due to lower taxation revenues."

And guess what? There are more tax cuts to come, which should make Bay Street happy: cuts to the Corporate Income Tax rate for large and small businesses, the elimination of the Capital Tax and removing embedded sales taxes for businesses amount to a loss of $9 billion in revenue per year. Page 320 of the budget describes it as "savings to businesses."

In terms of new spending, the big-ticket item is a long-term investment in infrastructure repairs and expansion -- something the province has spent too long avoiding and the jig is up. We'll be talking infrastructure spending for years to come. The danger is that the infrastructure improvements will come at the expense of investments in public services and turn into a boon to the private sector by way of public-private partnerships (now dubbed Alternative Financing and Procurement). Page 80 of the budget says the government is now engaged in 80 such projects.

There are several other holdovers from the Mike Harris era influencing this budget. References to "tax relief" as though there is no inherent good in a tax. References to "further reduce the regulatory burden on businesses." References to "red tape reduction." Ontarians have been subjected to this language since Mike Harris stormed into power and for some politicians it never gets old. While Budget 2014 is clearly an election budget that reflects the Wynne government's attempt to outflank the NDP on some social justice line items while attempting to silence Hudak's complaints about public spending and taxes, it also shows hints of an attempt to press the reset button of what has been a tumultuous minority government run.

There are more nods to First Nations commitments than there has been in a long while in this budget (though the dollars attached to it are minimal).

There is finally progress in terms of raising social assistance rates for single adults.

There's the minimum wage increase (though it doesn't go far enough).

There's the announcement of consultations for a made-in-Ontario pension plan.

And the political commitment to finally get the Greater Toronto Area's public transit expansion moving cannot be understated -- it's been a long time coming.

But Ontario hasn't exactly entered a brand new post-austerity world, which leads me to this conclusion: Budget 2014 could be worse, but given the multiple pressures facing Ontarians, it most certainly could be better.
Terence Corcoran: Ontario's new budget is a road to fiscal hell

quote:

One of the great destructive conceits of modern political economy is the underlying assumption that governments manage and control economic activity. Every budget by national or regional governments comes with false claims that the fiscal actions taken — to raise taxes or lower them, to spend more here or less there, to launch new initiatives or to re-shuffle old assets and programs — will deliver new jobs, new wealth and new prosperity.

Ontario’s latest Liberal festival of debt, deficits and taxes is full of such nostrums. “We will create jobs and grow the economy by investing in our people,” Finance Minister Charles Sousa declared in a budget that in fact does little more than add new burdens on current and future taxpayers while adding nothing to growth. New taxes on the “rich” and small businesses, new spending on infrastructure, a new $2.5-billion Jobs and Prosperity Fund that supposedly will lead to the development of a strategy to support advanced manufacturing — or so say the Liberals’ union backers.

These annual fraudulent rituals, despite the claims of politicians, add little if anything to jobs and growth. Instead they build debt and pave the way to fiscal hell. The more governments expand their fiscal interventions, the greater the burden on voters. A decade of Ontario Liberal budgets — from 2005 to 2015 and beyond — has loaded $9,000 in new debt per capita, or $40,000 for each family of four, with more to come. Do the math: Net debt per capita is now heading $80,000 per family.

Ontario taxpayers will eventually have to pay for this debt, heading for $300-billion, plus pay higher interest charges as rates rise in the future. They will also be asked to pick up the cost of a new provincial pension plan, essentially a pension tax that is described in the budget as a growth and jobs creator.

Debt to GDP will top 40% this fiscal year, up from 26% a decade ago. In other words, for every $100 of annual GDP the province will now carry $40 in debt. The assumption is that all this debt, brought on by annual deficits totalling almost $100-billion over the last few years, has provided Keynesian stimulus to the economy, helping the province pull out of the 2008 slowdown.

And there’s the fraud, really. The deficit explosion did not produce the results predicted or promised when it was launched by the McGuinty/Wynne Liberals in 2009. The debt/GDP ratio was then forecast to rise to only about 34% and then fall to 30.5% of GDP by 2015. Well, 2015 is here and the debt burden is now 40% of GDP.

Jobs and growth are not created by government spending, deficits and debt. The evidence is clear, the lesson not learned.

Kafka Esq. fucked around with this message at 18:46 on May 3, 2014

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HackensackBackpack
Aug 20, 2007

Who needs a house out in Hackensack? Is that all you get for your money?
This campaign is going to be all about dolla dolla bills, y'all. I mean, aren't they all? But the Liberals will most definitely be campaigning on their budget, and on their plans to expand infrastructure in the province, especially in Toronto (to the tune of $29 billion), the expansion of the massive deposit of mineral wealth in the north, the so-called "Ring of Fire" which is set at $1 billion, hinging on the feds to provide an additional billion (I wouldn't hold my breath, personally), and the much-touted Ontario Pension Plan, wherein every employee would be paying 1.9% of their salary, matched by their employer, into a fund that would be drawn upon after retirement.

Tim Hudak has been pushing his "Million Jobs Plan" for several months, and opposes the Liberals on principle. He's of the mind that we need to cut, cut, cut, and then cut some more, to get the province out of trouble, as if government programs are wild, tangled jungle growth, and he's the guy with the machete. Hudak will likely be campaigning on not only his plan to create a million jobs, but on the plethora of Liberal spending mismanagement stories and scandals, including the $1.1 billion dollar gas plant cancellations (which, as Kafka Esq. pointed out, he was going to cancel as well, but he insists he'd have found a cheaper and more transparent way to do it), the deleted e-mails surrounding the canceled gas plants (which are under police investigation), the green energy program, which Tim Hudak is opposed to and, while he'd be forced to uphold the province's end of existing contracts if he became premier, he says he'll sign no new deals for wind farms or solar panels anywhere else in the province, and the mismanagement of the province's air ambulance service ORNGE.

What I'm interested in seeing is whether or not Hudak and the PCs will continue to evoke the name and imagery of former premier Dalton McGuinty. Their last campaign used his name more than McGuinty's did and I'm certain it's partly responsible for their failure to grasp the reins of government. Tim Hudak spent more time talking about what the Liberals DID than what he would DO.

And Horwath will campaign on something. I don't know. Her lack of confidence in the Liberals, I guess.

Get ready for a fun campaign, everyone!

(But seriously, it'll probably be pretty boring.)

HackensackBackpack fucked around with this message at 22:33 on May 3, 2014

tagesschau
Sep 1, 2006
Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren.
Choosing "comedy option" since I can't vote.

I feel like there's a good chance we'll end up with the same balance of power we had last week.

tagesschau fucked around with this message at 19:44 on May 3, 2014

AegisP
Oct 5, 2008
Wynne's come out fighting against federal comments directed towards her budget. Apparently both Harper and Finance Minister Joe Oliver had some not nice things to say about the proposed budget, particularly the pension plan, so now she's pinning Harper as the face of the Conservative Party in Ontario.

At this rate Hudak won't even need to open his mouth to sink his chances.

tagesschau
Sep 1, 2006
Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren.
Kathleen Wynne: Harper 'taking over the voice' of Tories in Ontario

CBC posted:

Just hours into the Ontario election on Friday, senior federal Conservatives stepped into the fight, delivering unvarnished scorn for some of Wynne's signature policies.

In an interview on CBC Radio's The House, Finance Minister Joe Oliver broke with the convention of keeping out of provincial elections and delivered a nasty assessment of the newly released Liberal budget.

...

Meanwhile, Prime Minister Stephen Harper lashed out at Wynne's proposal for a provincial retirement plan, calling it an "unnecessary tax hike."

Not sure how credible the federal Tories are on this issue, given that they intentionally created a deficit (by cutting the GST) as soon as they got into power.

Precambrian Video Games
Aug 19, 2002



Say no to PP...Ps!

Heavy neutrino
Sep 16, 2007

You made a fine post for yourself. ...For a casualry, I suppose.
Just whom does Horwath think her party's supposed to appeal to now that she's gone and deliberately pissed off the unions in a bid for power?

Let's start a petition to force the NDP to rename itself to the New Liberal Party it so desperately wants to be.

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.
I'm curious which way the teacher's unions are going to break, they went pretty hardcore NDP the last election thanks to the Liberal's forcing a contract on them.

I basically just vote at the local level, my MPP (Cheri DiNovo) generally hasn't made a mess of anything. Although I'm sick of the "clean trains now" bullshit, I read the district newsletter and I still have no idea what else she's done around here, they've been pushing it so much.

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Brought to you by ATU Local 113. Ha!

Interestingly, the ATU Canadian Council hasn't come out for or against anyone yet.

HackensackBackpack
Aug 20, 2007

Who needs a house out in Hackensack? Is that all you get for your money?
One MPP is accusing another MPP of blocking the appointment of a Financial Accountability Officer.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1349111/document-reveals-horwath-misled-on-financial-accountability-officer?relation=org

quote:

Andrea Horwath made the lack of a new Financial Accountability Officer the centrepiece of the NDP's rationale for an election, but new documents reveal that the vacancy exists only because the NDP blocked the appointment of two qualified candidates.

NDP MPP Catherine Fife, a member of the all-party hiring committee, brought the hiring process to a halt in April by withholding the NDP's support for any applicants. Fife personally wrote to the Speaker of the Legislature: "I am looking forward to finding and hiring an independent and qualified applicant from a new field of candidates."

"The lack of a new Financial Accountability Officer was the centrepiece of Andrea Horwath's opposition to our job-creating budget, but that office would already be up and running if the NDP didn't stop it," said Vaughan MPP Steven Del Duca. "I know because I was there. I sat on the all-party hiring committee and watched as the NDP rejected qualified applicants and demanded a restart to the application process."

Nothing from the PCs yet today, near as I can tell. Their website isn't even updated with anything new. People are tweeting the link to volunteer for the party on the #onpoli hashtag pretty hard, though.

tagesschau
Sep 1, 2006
Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren.

Leofish posted:

One MPP is accusing another MPP of blocking the appointment of a Financial Accountability Officer.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1349111/document-reveals-horwath-misled-on-financial-accountability-officer?relation=org


Nothing from the PCs yet today, near as I can tell. Their website isn't even updated with anything new. People are tweeting the link to volunteer for the party on the #onpoli hashtag pretty hard, though.

None of the three parties' sites seems to reflect the fact that there's an election. Perhaps it's because the campaign hasn't officially started yet.

HackensackBackpack
Aug 20, 2007

Who needs a house out in Hackensack? Is that all you get for your money?

tagesschau posted:

None of the three parties' sites seems to reflect the fact that there's an election. Perhaps it's because the campaign hasn't officially started yet.

Yeah, I didn't realise it's not officially underway until Wednesday.

Hudak had an appearance on CBC today. He wants to "hang an open for business sign on Ontario."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-votes-2014/hudak-stresses-job-creation-reduced-spending-1.2631191

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



Heavy neutrino posted:

Just whom does Horwath think her party's supposed to appeal to now that she's gone and deliberately pissed off the unions in a bid for power?

Let's start a petition to force the NDP to rename itself to the New Liberal Party it so desperately wants to be.

What is the NDP platform anyways? I mean what more did they want besides what the Liberals gave them? Seemed like a pretty good budget and the NDP is just being retarded and having an election. I will hate the NDP forever if Hudak somehow wins.

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.
Ontario Election Thread: What is the NDP platform anyways?

Seriously, they triggered an election without any indication of what they'd do differently, or at all.

They've gotten everything they wanted from the Liberals, every time they've asked.

Badger of Basra
Jul 26, 2007

What's the polling like on this? Is it even worth it to ask, considering how lovely Canadian polling has been lately?

Postess with the Mostest
Apr 4, 2007

Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

Badger of Basra posted:

What's the polling like on this? Is it even worth it to ask, considering how lovely Canadian polling has been lately?

Dr. Witherbone
Nov 1, 2010

CHEESE LOOKS ON IN
DESPAIR BUT ALSO WITH
AN ERECTION

Badger of Basra posted:

What's the polling like on this? Is it even worth it to ask, considering how lovely Canadian polling has been lately?

I've been wondering both of these things basically since the brutal BC shakeup last year.

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Plus ça change...

Tochiazuma
Feb 16, 2007

Badger of Basra posted:

What's the polling like on this? Is it even worth it to ask, considering how lovely Canadian polling has been lately?

Here's EKOS results:

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2014/05/02/ontario-ndp-fading-at-critical-point-as-election-looms/

34.7% Liberals,
31.6% Conservatives,
22.2% NDP,
9% Green amongst decided voters (18% undecided)

Some other interesting graphs there, breakdown by region, gender, education, etc.


2011 election results poll by poll if you're interested here with clickable maps

http://globalnews.ca/news/1306656/ontarios-voting-again-here-are-2011-election-results-poll-by-poll/

JimboMaloi
Oct 10, 2007

I'm very confused by the 4.6% of federal NDP supporters who say they'll vote for Hudak.

Precambrian Video Games
Aug 19, 2002



JimboMaloi posted:

I'm very confused by the 4.6% of federal NDP supporters who say they'll vote for Hudak.

It's a tiny percentage of the vote - 35% federal NDP supporters, roughly, gives at most 2% of Ontario voters who voted for Jack and would vote PC. There are a number of ridings in Canada where the Liberals regularly finish a distant 3rd, so I can certainly see some small minority of old federal PC voters who are disillusioned with Harper and more disappointed with Horwath than Hudak. Or maybe they care about their local candidate/MPP.

That data really makes me confused about Horwath's decision. It seems like NDP support is really cratering. Of course there's time to turn it around but I really don't see evidence of a plan from the ONDP. They have some individually good MPPs but the party as a whole seems to be mess.

Sashimi
Dec 26, 2008


College Slice

JimboMaloi posted:

I'm very confused by the 4.6% of federal NDP supporters who say they'll vote for Hudak.
My parents fall into this category, and their rationale is quite confusing. The last few years they tend to vote for the seemingly least corrupt party, and provincially this is somehow the PCO. Hudak's anti-union rhetoric appeals to them too since they feel like most unions in Ontario have too much power. I really need to convince them Hudak would be a complete disaster and swing the balance of power for labour way too far in the other direction. Strategic voting is another factor as well. They HATE the Libs, and since they live in a Lib/PCO swing riding, voting against the Liberals is something to consider too.

Conch Shell Corp
Feb 24, 2009

Dr. Witherbone posted:

I've been wondering both of these things basically since the brutal BC shakeup last year.

The pollsters also called for a large Wildrose majority in the Alberta election in 2011. The provincial NDP must be hoping its still out of whack because I dont see why you'd risk a PC minority/majority when you're the balance of power in a liberal minority government, granted I'm not an Ontarian so I might not be in tune with what's actually happening there.

Dr. Witherbone
Nov 1, 2010

CHEESE LOOKS ON IN
DESPAIR BUT ALSO WITH
AN ERECTION

Regence posted:

The pollsters also called for a large Wildrose majority in the Alberta election in 2011. The provincial NDP must be hoping its still out of whack because I dont see why you'd risk a PC minority/majority when you're the balance of power in a liberal minority government, granted I'm not an Ontarian so I might not be in tune with what's actually happening there.

If the previous election is anything to go on it's not too big of a risk, hopefully. Poking around, there aren't that many severe left-wing splits leading to conservative majorities, though it's severe by Canadian standards I'm talking about : I didn't see any L32-N32-C36 nailbiters.

Here's hoping we avoid all that garbage entirely!

Sashimi
Dec 26, 2008


College Slice

Regence posted:

The pollsters also called for a large Wildrose majority in the Alberta election in 2011. The provincial NDP must be hoping its still out of whack because I dont see why you'd risk a PC minority/majority when you're the balance of power in a liberal minority government, granted I'm not an Ontarian so I might not be in tune with what's actually happening there.
There's a pretty good chance someone within the PC ranks is going to make a severe gaffe that the media and the other parties can easily latch on to, sinking their chances. Two elections ago it was John Tory's proposal to have a vote on funding faith based schools, last time I think it was some backbenchers saying some crazy racist nonsense.

Guy DeBorgore
Apr 6, 1994

Catnip is the opiate of the masses
Soiled Meat

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:

What is the NDP platform anyways? I mean what more did they want besides what the Liberals gave them? Seemed like a pretty good budget and the NDP is just being retarded and having an election.

... and why is it such an NDP-heavy budget? Because right now the Liberals really don't want an election; the gas plant scandal is still really visible and they've been losing byelections all over the place. And Hudak is a terrible politician who scares votes away every time he opens his mouth. If Horwath hadn't forced the election, that would give Wynne another year to distance herself from McGuinty and push through high-visibility voter-friendly policies. So strategically I think it's a sound decision.

That's assuming you actually want the NDP to win, which most NDPers do. If you just want the NDP to sit in 3rd place and keep the Liberals scared then yeah, I guess you'll be disappointed.

Reince Penis
Nov 15, 2007

by R. Guyovich

infernal machines posted:

I basically just vote at the local level, my MPP (Cheri DiNovo) generally hasn't made a mess of anything. Although I'm sick of the "clean trains now" bullshit, I read the district newsletter and I still have no idea what else she's done around here, they've been pushing it so much.

This is where I'm at too. I like DiNovo, but if it wasn't for her I don't know who I'd be voting for. One little bit that's cool about her: she fought for years to get transgender people added to the Ontario Human Rights Code and eventually succeeded. She gets big points for that. I still intend to give her an earful about internal party democracy, specifically that twit Giambrone.

Her son is also friends with my neighbor, I drink beers with them occasionally. Cool guy, even if he's got the classic 'rebel against my parents politics' thing going on.

Pinterest Mom
Jun 9, 2009

Guy DeBorgore posted:

That's assuming you actually want the NDP to win, which most NDPers do. If you just want the NDP to sit in 3rd place and keep the Liberals scared then yeah, I guess you'll be disappointed.

I'd posit that a lot of NDP supporters aren't NDP supporters because they want the NDP to win, but because they want left-wing policies to be implemented. This budget looks a whole lot like the Liberals delivering on longstanding NDP priorities on several fronts, and it might have been nice for the ONDP to take yes for an answer.

HackensackBackpack
Aug 20, 2007

Who needs a house out in Hackensack? Is that all you get for your money?

Sashimi posted:

There's a pretty good chance someone within the PC ranks is going to make a severe gaffe that the media and the other parties can easily latch on to, sinking their chances. Two elections ago it was John Tory's proposal to have a vote on funding faith based schools, last time I think it was some backbenchers saying some crazy racist nonsense.

Part of the PCs fallapart last time around was the viceral reaction to Dalton McGuinty's proposal to change sex ed in elementary and high schools, possibly teaching children that transgendered people are a thing. There were many other proposals in the change, like the correct names for sex organs being taught in Grade 1, I think, and it flipped out the PC base, so Hudak had to go out and denounce it, and it made him look like a bit of a prude, and a bit of a trans/homophobe.

Of course later, a former deputy minister of education, Benjamin Levin, was arrested on child porn charges in New Zealand. He wasn't deputy minister in 2011, but there was speculation that he had a hand in the sex ed overhaul, and that it wasn't a benign one. He was also part of Wynne's transition team when she took over.

Tim Hudak will be on "The Province" on Newstalk 1010 in Toronto at 1:00 this afternoon, as well as on CKTB 610 in Niagara Falls, CKLW 800 in Windsor and 580 CFRA in Ottawa. There might be something interesting there, but if I was to wager a guess he'll likely just be sticking to his script of "lower taxes, create jobs, corrupt liberals."

As far as Horwath goes, I can't figure it out, either... The only people who seemed to me to be happy with her decision were PC supporters who just wanted an election. They're not going to vote for the NDP, and in my anecdotal circles, they're still unhappy that it took her so long to bring the government down in the first place.

DynamicSloth
Jul 30, 2006

"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth."

Pinterest Mom posted:

I'd posit that a lot of NDP supporters aren't NDP supporters because they want the NDP to win, but because they want left-wing policies to be implemented. This budget looks a whole lot like the Liberals delivering on longstanding NDP priorities on several fronts, and it might have been nice for the ONDP to take yes for an answer.

I think it'd generally be long term political death for the ONDP and all of it's ideas if it backed Liberal government without a formal coalition agreement for the totality of it's term in office, it's asking to be seen as redundant. There's also zero ways to enforce the delivery of these promises once the Bill is passed before the next election a year from now, when no one will be paying attention at all because it'll be right on top of a federal election campaign.

Postess with the Mostest
Apr 4, 2007

Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

Leofish posted:

As far as Horwath goes, I can't figure it out, either... The only people who seemed to me to be happy with her decision were PC supporters who just wanted an election. They're not going to vote for the NDP, and in my anecdotal circles, they're still unhappy that it took her so long to bring the government down in the first place.

It seems really clear to me, Wynne promised the NDP three tiny things in 2013 and delivered on none of them. The provincial Liberals have a bit of a track record of not delivering on election promises. How would she look if she fell for it two years in a row and has to go to the polls after another year of media around the criminal actions around the gas plant? If she was going to vote against the budget no matter what, it may have been smart to say that before it came out. On the other hand, now the Liberals are locked into defending the most expensive budget we've seen in decades while our debt to gdp ratio is higher than it's ever been. Maybe she is a political mastermind?

quote:

“How can Kathleen Wynne promise to build a ship when she hasn’t even built a raft?” Horwath said. “We don’t have any confidence whatsoever in their ability to come through on those promises.”

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Ikantski posted:

... the Liberals are locked into defending the most expensive budget we've seen in decades while our debt to gdp ratio is higher than it's ever been. Maybe she is a political mastermind?

I'm curious how you think an NDP budget would differ materially from the one the Liberals put forward. Unless, of course you're dismissing them both and counting on an OPC win.

DynamicSloth
Jul 30, 2006

"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth."

infernal machines posted:

I'm curious how you think an NDP budget would differ materially from the one the Liberals put forward. Unless, of course you're dismissing them both and counting on an OPC win.

Would fix the corporate income tax deficit which is the ultimate cause of Ontario's structural revenue deficiency.

Wouldn't screw over public sector workers on their pensions.

Would not be a one-off campaign budget no one expects to be fully implemented, but part of a consistent governing philosophy.

Postess with the Mostest
Apr 4, 2007

Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes
As a PC, I would gladly take Horwath over Wynne at this point. An NDP budget would probably similar, less infrastructure and corporate subsidies but at least it would be based on their party's values instead of pandering for votes. The NDP fear of nuclear power usually scares me but I'm not sure what her platform is on that.

I'm curious why you think the Liberals would actually deliver on their promises to NDP this year when they didn't deliver on a single one last year?

Edit: Hudak is hosting his own call-in radio show on 580, 1010 and probably whatever your local conservative AM station is right now.

infernal machines
Oct 11, 2012

we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

Ikantski posted:

As a PC, I would gladly take Horwath over Wynne at this point. An NDP budget would probably similar, less infrastructure and corporate subsidies but at least it would be based on their party's values instead of pandering for votes. The NDP fear of nuclear power usually scares me but I'm not sure what her platform is on that.

I'm curious why you think the Liberals would actually deliver on their promises to NDP this year when they didn't deliver on a single one last year?

The nuclear power thing has always been an issue for me with the NDP, I have no idea why that's even part of their platform.

Regarding the infrastructure subsidies, I would hope for more rather than less from the NDP, especially given their renewed focus on urban areas. Interest rates are low and infrastructure of all stripes is in dire need of maintenance, repair, and upgrades. I don't think letting the wheels fall off our civic infrastructure is really a good money saving policy.

I have no reason to believe the OLP would deliver on anything in the budget in particular, but presumably they'd make a good show of it. On the other hand the NDP is going to be in a much worse position in the event of a OPC minority government.

DynamicSloth
Jul 30, 2006

"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth."

infernal machines posted:

I have no reason to believe the OLP would deliver on anything in the budget in particular, but presumably they'd make a good show of it. On the other hand the NDP is going to be in a much worse position in the event of a OPC minority government.
Only if the Liberals cooperate with the PCs that seems like another good reason to prefer the NDP to the Liberals.

Minority governments do not last 4 years, the NDP voting down the government isn't some shocking development.

vyelkin
Jan 2, 2011
This is a stupid election and I hope the NDP pay for it by electing a Liberal majority, at which point Wynne will steal all the NDP's good plays and name every bill the "Laugh at Andrea Horwath Act".

sbaldrick
Jul 19, 2006
Driven by Hate
So I've figured out what is going to sink the PCO this time, Hudak or someone is going to talk about family values at some point and say Wynne doesn't speak for Ontario families, which will come off as an attack because of her sexuality.

You know it will happen

DynamicSloth
Jul 30, 2006

"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth."

vyelkin posted:

This is a stupid election and I hope the NDP pay for it by electing a Liberal majority, at which point Wynne will steal all the NDP's good plays and name every bill the "Laugh at Andrea Horwath Act".

The first thing a Liberal majority will do is stop playing lip service to the left. Their priorities under a majority (and when they were down one seat) were engineering "a very special report on the importance of austerity" and crushing the teachers and other public sector unions.

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HackensackBackpack
Aug 20, 2007

Who needs a house out in Hackensack? Is that all you get for your money?

sbaldrick posted:

So I've figured out what is going to sink the PCO this time, Hudak or someone is going to talk about family values at some point and say Wynne doesn't speak for Ontario families, which will come off as an attack because of her sexuality.

You know it will happen

I really hope that doesn't happen, because that would be a load of garbage. There are plenty of issues facing the province that are way more important than some vague "family values" thing. The keyword lately seems to be more "working families" than "family values." Wynne hasn't played up her sexuality at all since becoming premier, aside from the first couple of days after she was appointed when everyone wanted to talk about it, and I hope the PCs stay away from it, too, because it means nothing in terms of her ability to lead a government or plan a budget, or anything else she'll actually be doing.

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