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Mq
Jul 7, 2005
Lazy fat bastard

Antti posted:

Calling it now: the first season finale will have an outright reference to the Joker, setting him up as someone to come in for season two. That's why he's under wraps right now, he's the season finale bomb they want to drop.

And what exactly will this baby Joker do? Stuff baby Bruce Wayne into his school locker?

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Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

Antti posted:

Calling it now: the first season finale will have an outright reference to the Joker, setting him up as someone to come in for season two. That's why he's under wraps right now, he's the season finale bomb they want to drop.

Bruce, we've got you a new babysitter. I think you'll like him, he loves to CLOWN around.

You JOKERS'll have a lot of fun together.

Bruce, with your father dead you're really gonna have some BIG SHOES to fill.

Bruce, you're being awfully rude today. Quit being such a BOZO.

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Lipstick Apathy

Mq posted:

And what exactly will this baby Joker do? Stuff baby Bruce Wayne into his school locker?



Just, you know, with Alfred instead of his father.

Shadoer
Aug 31, 2011


Zoe Quinn is one of many women targeted by the Gamergate harassment campaign.

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At least they have a whole list of villains they can have Gordon go up against before Batman hits the scene.

Black Mask, Deadshot, Deathstroke, The Ventriloquist, Ras A'Ghoul, Zsasz, Calander Man, Firefly, and Magpie can all be used in addition to their current Rogues gallery without contradicting Batman's future and can be conceivably defeated by Gordon.

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

Shadoer posted:

At least they have a whole list of villains they can have Gordon go up against before Batman hits the scene.

Black Mask, Deadshot, Deathstroke, The Ventriloquist, Ras A'Ghoul, Zsasz, Calander Man, Firefly, and Magpie can all be used in addition to their current Rogues gallery without contradicting Batman's future and can be conceivably defeated by Gordon.

I really feel like a preBatman super-villain arc would really go bad for a show like this. Batman ushered in a new class of criminal. Gordon is fighting every man as an everyman, they shouldn't be pitting anyone against another mask.

I'm just torn, because this show needs to be more Chicago Code than whatever the hell the trailer made it look like, and it's most likely not going to do that. I'm definitely watching the first two episodes, at least. Dear god, don't be as bad as AoS.

kingcom
Jun 23, 2012

Drifter posted:

I really feel like a preBatman super-villain arc would really go bad for a show like this. Batman ushered in a new class of criminal. Gordon is fighting every man as an everyman, they shouldn't be pitting anyone against another mask.

I'm just torn, because this show needs to be more Chicago Code than whatever the hell the trailer made it look like, and it's most likely not going to do that. I'm definitely watching the first two episodes, at least. Dear god, don't be as bad as AoS.

To be fair AoS has gone from garbage to mediocre so for Gotham to be worse is a real possibility. Alternatively if they just straight brought Manu Bennett in to continue to play Deathstroke after Arrow finishes with him then I would be all up for that.

MrFlibble
Nov 28, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Fallen Rib

Drifter posted:

Batman ushered in a new class of criminal

That's one way of looking at it. I like looking at Gotham being such a corrupt poo poo hole that the people who live there are slowly being driven mad by it.

And i'll go on record as saying that you can do Joker well without Batman (not that they will do him well, just that its possible).

Shadoer
Aug 31, 2011


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The other thing is that could be interesting is that Gordon doesn't necessarily have to "win" in every episode, in fact he should be losing a lot. With the right writing they could have him deal with losing most episodes, just minimizing the damage that Gotham's underground does, but still go out every day and try and make the city a marginally better place. It could be a really endearing story if they do it that way.

Then when things look like they are finally going to total crap, they can have Batman finally show up and have a season dedicated to the "Long Halloween" arch from Gordon's perspective. (or just do Arkham Origins, crap game but great story).

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

Shadoer posted:

The other thing is that could be interesting is that Gordon doesn't necessarily have to "win" in every episode, in fact he should be losing a lot. With the right writing they could have him deal with losing most episodes, just minimizing the damage that Gotham's underground does, but still go out every day and try and make the city a marginally better place. It could be a really endearing story if they do it that way.

Then when things look like they are finally going to total crap, they can have Batman finally show up and have a season dedicated to the "Long Halloween" arch from Gordon's perspective. (or just do Arkham Origins, crap game but great story).

So you're thinking the kids will get aged up after a season or less and we'll get semi-adults after? That could work, I guess.

I just...I really don't want another show to play out like Smallville did. I swear to god, if they have an episode of bruce in school I'm heading home. I'm assuming Batman/bruce and the like will be ancillary characters/explorations in the show.

Krad
Feb 4, 2008

Touche
Isn't Joker one of THE villains that surface only when Batman does, regardless of which origin you pick for him? There's no way they could use him for this show. And it'll be all the better for it.

Zero One
Dec 30, 2004

HAIL TO THE VICTORS!

Un-l337-Pork posted:

Right? I'm glad to see most of the Southland people getting work in one way or another.

I'm not convinced that McKenzie has much dramatic range, but just about anything related to cops he has covered.

McKenzie as a cop is the only reason I'm going to watch this.

SpazmasterX
Jul 13, 2006

Wrong about everything XIV related
~fartz~

Krad posted:

Isn't Joker one of THE villains that surface only when Batman does, regardless of which origin you pick for him? There's no way they could use him for this show. And it'll be all the better for it.

He's the Red Hood (although current origins suggest he's an anonymous psychopath that killed the original Hood and stole his identity) first, but that too didn't appear until Batman did really. But I'm very much in agreement that Joker should never show up in the show.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.

Krad posted:

Isn't Joker one of THE villains that surface only when Batman does, regardless of which origin you pick for him? There's no way they could use him for this show. And it'll be all the better for it.

Yeah, I think you're right.

I understand why this premise sounds cool on paper, but stretching a show about Batman out for seasons without seeing Batman sounds excruciating. The entire point of Batman is that he shows up as this near-cosmic force that totally changes the status quo. So, Gotham can't actually show any improvement to the city's situation, and its heroes have to be hopelessly outmatched. It's a really long first act to a Batman origin story.

Which sounds sort of cool for a season, but after that I can only imagine people thinking, "fine, great, but can we get to Batman already?"

Maybe they'll create lesser vigilante characters? The Question, or something? Or just trick everyone and make it into a new season of The Wire. Mr. Freeze shows up, but as a condemnation of the bureaucratic apathy inherent to for-profit healthcare. Killer Croc shows up, but as a metaphor for the pernicious and self-perpetuating nature of urban poverty or racialized violence.

Sam.
Jan 1, 2009

"I thought we had something, Shepard. Something real."
:qq:

Xealot posted:

Yeah, I think you're right.

I understand why this premise sounds cool on paper, but stretching a show about Batman out for seasons without seeing Batman sounds excruciating. The entire point of Batman is that he shows up as this near-cosmic force that totally changes the status quo. So, Gotham can't actually show any improvement to the city's situation, and its heroes have to be hopelessly outmatched. It's a really long first act to a Batman origin story.

Which sounds sort of cool for a season, but after that I can only imagine people thinking, "fine, great, but can we get to Batman already?"

Maybe they'll create lesser vigilante characters? The Question, or something? Or just trick everyone and make it into a new season of The Wire. Mr. Freeze shows up, but as a condemnation of the bureaucratic apathy inherent to for-profit healthcare. Killer Croc shows up, but as a metaphor for the pernicious and self-perpetuating nature of urban poverty or racialized violence.



"These are for you, Gordon."

kingcom
Jun 23, 2012

Xealot posted:

Yeah, I think you're right.

I understand why this premise sounds cool on paper, but stretching a show about Batman out for seasons without seeing Batman sounds excruciating. The entire point of Batman is that he shows up as this near-cosmic force that totally changes the status quo. So, Gotham can't actually show any improvement to the city's situation, and its heroes have to be hopelessly outmatched. It's a really long first act to a Batman origin story.

Which sounds sort of cool for a season, but after that I can only imagine people thinking, "fine, great, but can we get to Batman already?"

Maybe they'll create lesser vigilante characters? The Question, or something? Or just trick everyone and make it into a new season of The Wire. Mr. Freeze shows up, but as a condemnation of the bureaucratic apathy inherent to for-profit healthcare. Killer Croc shows up, but as a metaphor for the pernicious and self-perpetuating nature of urban poverty or racialized violence.


There you go again Gordon, giving a gently caress when its not your turn.

Mister Mind
Mar 20, 2009

I'm not a real doctor,
But I am a real worm;
I am an actual worm

Xealot posted:

Yeah, I think you're right.

I understand why this premise sounds cool on paper, but stretching a show about Batman out for seasons without seeing Batman sounds excruciating. The entire point of Batman is that he shows up as this near-cosmic force that totally changes the status quo. So, Gotham can't actually show any improvement to the city's situation, and its heroes have to be hopelessly outmatched. It's a really long first act to a Batman origin story.

Which sounds sort of cool for a season, but after that I can only imagine people thinking, "fine, great, but can we get to Batman already?"

Maybe they'll create lesser vigilante characters? The Question, or something? Or just trick everyone and make it into a new season of The Wire. Mr. Freeze shows up, but as a condemnation of the bureaucratic apathy inherent to for-profit healthcare. Killer Croc shows up, but as a metaphor for the pernicious and self-perpetuating nature of urban poverty or racialized violence.

I would seriously pay :10bux: to have muckraking reporter Jack Ryder as a regular supporting character. :20bux: to get the Creeper, too.

Detective No. 27
Jun 7, 2006

Mister Mind posted:

I would seriously pay :10bux: to have muckraking reporter Jack Ryder as a regular supporting character. :20bux: to get the Creeper, too.

Creeper would be such a :master: way to troll people asking for Joker.

CaptainHollywood
Feb 29, 2008


I am an awesome guy and I love to make out during shitty Hollywood horror movies. I am a trendwhore!

Krad posted:

Isn't Joker one of THE villains that surface only when Batman does, regardless of which origin you pick for him? There's no way they could use him for this show. And it'll be all the better for it.

I really was digging the trailer until "See how all your favourite villains came to be". An origin Joker story is just... unnecessary. I don't give a poo poo about a teenage Riddler or anyone really.

Having said that- it still looks decent, and I'd be willing to give the first few episodes a shot. That trailer was better than the Agents of Shield pilot. This show really looks like it'll be a less goofy Smallville which is a plus. Maybe at one point he travels Metropolis and makes childhood friends with Clark Kent.

We all know the season finale will not be about dropping the "Joker" bomb. This is what will happen...

Gordon comes out of the shower. He pulls out a razor and looks in the mirror. Cut to black.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth
I'm so into this. I love Batman but his pretense distracts from what could be a great idea in the normal, nonmasked guys who fight crime in that city. I want more of that.

-Blackadder-
Jan 2, 2007

Game....Blouses.
They should really just make this a ultra gritty serial cop drama. Like Se7en: The Series or something. If the characters are well drawn enough they won't have to keep going to the well of Batman villains to keep people watching. And yeah the trailer did look pretty good. It at least provides some hope that this isn't going to be another Birds of Prey.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.
lol you guys talking like there's going to be a second season

Shadoer
Aug 31, 2011


Zoe Quinn is one of many women targeted by the Gamergate harassment campaign.

Support a feminist today!


Another thing that should be known is that Bruno Heller is at the helm. He is responsible for Rome and the Mentalist.

Rome of course was fantastic and the Mentalist, while turned to slock, had quite a few good episodes and rarely crossed into truly terrible territory.

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

lol you guys talking like there's going to be a second season

Personally when I heard of it, I never believed it would get off the ground or have any real talent attached to it. If anything, I thought this project would have been killed when the whole Superman/Batman movie was announced. Execs usually don't want things running on TV that might confuse the audience with what's happening in the movies.

... then again there's the real possibility that Ben Affleck might make a cameo as future Batman in this show which would make me vomit.

Shadoer fucked around with this message at 04:18 on May 7, 2014

Gaunab
Feb 13, 2012
LUFTHANSA YOU FUCKING DICKWEASEL
The trailer looked nice but this is a ridiculous. Maybe it could work as a movie or miniseries. Having Bruce and a lot of pre-Batman villains there will probably make people want to see Batman more. Plus the city pretty much has to stay a poo poo hole for a long time until Batman shows up. If they'd just focused on making a cop show that happened to be in Gotham or making an origin miniseries it could be good but everything so far is just weird.

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009

Glory to Mankind.

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

lol you guys talking like there's going to be a second season

FOX ordered this to series sight unseen, unless this show unbelievably shits the bed its first season FOX is gonna renew this, they but all their eggs in this particular basket

Also the woman they have playing Catwoman looks loving weird as poo poo, like her whole face is some uncanny valley nonsense going on

Mister Mind
Mar 20, 2009

I'm not a real doctor,
But I am a real worm;
I am an actual worm

Occupation posted:

FOX ordered this to series sight unseen, unless this show unbelievably shits the bed its first season FOX is gonna renew this, they but all their eggs in this particular basket

Also the woman they have playing Catwoman looks loving weird as poo poo, like her whole face is some uncanny valley nonsense going on

Camren Bicondova (Catwoman) is, in fact, 14 years old. I think it's her 45-year-old-woman hairstyle that's messing you up.

edit: Similarly, Claire Foley (Poison Ivy) is twelve-ish. (She also played Paul Giamatti and Amy Ryan's daughter in Win Win, which you should all go and watch ASAP, because it's a really good movie.)

Mister Mind fucked around with this message at 04:51 on May 7, 2014

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

Mister Mind posted:

Camren Bicondova (Catwoman) is, in fact, 14 years old. I think it's her 45-year-old-woman hairstyle that's messing you up.

And shitton of makeup.

Shadoer
Aug 31, 2011


Zoe Quinn is one of many women targeted by the Gamergate harassment campaign.

Support a feminist today!


Mister Mind posted:

Camren Bicondova (Catwoman) is, in fact, 14 years old. I think it's her 45-year-old-woman hairstyle that's messing you up.

Wait what? I thought she must be an older actress just trying to portray someone younger, as should be done in a show that should be as dark as Gotham should be...

Mister Mind posted:

edit: Similarly, Claire Foley (Poison Ivy) is twelve-ish. (She also played Paul Giamatti and Amy Ryan's daughter in Win Win, which you should all go and watch ASAP, because it's a really good movie.)

WTF! They have a 12 year old playing Poison Ivy?!

Ok... guess she isn't going to be detonating a bunch of bombs and being an eco-terrorist anytime soon.

Now my faith in this show has been somewhat damaged.

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

Shadoer posted:

Wait what? I thought she must be an older actress just trying to portray someone younger, as should be done in a show that should be as dark as Gotham should be...


WTF! They have a 12 year old playing Poison Ivy?!

Ok... guess she isn't going to be detonating a bunch of bombs and being an eco-terrorist anytime soon.

Now my faith in this show has been somewhat damaged.

It's been clear that the adults are the showrunners, though. Bruce looks ten years old, ffs. None of those named characters are going to be doing much of anything. The kids seem like they're more thematic tools to show the change of the city, rather than supermasks-in-training.

Drifter fucked around with this message at 07:39 on May 7, 2014

Shadoer
Aug 31, 2011


Zoe Quinn is one of many women targeted by the Gamergate harassment campaign.

Support a feminist today!


Drifter posted:

It's been clear that the adults are the showrunners, though. Bruce looks ten years old, ffs. None of those named characters are going to be doing much of anything. The kids seem like they're more thematic tools to show the change of the city, rather than supermasks-in-training.

That would be fine and I hope your right. However Selina seems like she's going to be featured prominently.

R-Type
Oct 10, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
This is going to be The Arrow without the Arrow. Why are they so damned afraid of putting the superheroes on TV?

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

Shadoer posted:

That would be fine and I hope your right. However Selina seems like she's going to be featured prominently.

We both know I'm probably wrong.

:negative:

Shadoer
Aug 31, 2011


Zoe Quinn is one of many women targeted by the Gamergate harassment campaign.

Support a feminist today!


R-Type posted:

This is going to be The Arrow without the Arrow. Why are they so damned afraid of putting the superheroes on TV?

Budget.

Even a hero like Batman, who has no powers, still would require a large budget for the Batcave, Batmobile, and all of his ninja esque stunts. With Gordon as the main hero you don't have those problems as his powers are his brains and his gun.

Same reason why Smallville Clark rarely ever flew. CGI effects for flying are expensive, but Clark "bluring" into stuff is still pretty cheap.

Drifter posted:

We both know I'm probably wrong.

:negative:

:(

There's got to be hope. However dark and scary the world might be right now, there's got to be light.

Shadoer fucked around with this message at 08:41 on May 7, 2014

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat

Shadoer posted:

:(

There's got to be hope. However dark and scary the world might be right now, there's got to be light.

A small amount of light. Like the flickering light in a certain alleyway at the back entrance of a movie theater during an evening showing of the new Zorro film.

Norwegian Rudo
May 9, 2013

Occupation posted:

FOX ordered this to series sight unseen, unless this show unbelievably shits the bed its first season FOX is gonna renew this, they but all their eggs in this particular basket

Not true. It was only picked up this week, after a full pilot was shot and screened.

Shadoer
Aug 31, 2011


Zoe Quinn is one of many women targeted by the Gamergate harassment campaign.

Support a feminist today!


Drifter posted:

A small amount of light. Like the flickering light in a certain alleyway at the back entrance of a movie theater during an evening showing of the new Zorro film.

Ah a short cut to get home marginally faster! Can't possibly go wrong.

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness
Soiled Meat
I was mildly bothered by the fact that when Bruce's Parents were killed his mom wasn't wearing a necklace that fell apart in a dramatic fashion. It seems that this was less a robbery gone wrong and more of a deliberate hit.

That's Gordon's hook, and Bruce's deeper connection to him, I'd guess. And Selina will help Bruce sneak around the streets trying to find the who hired the killer - because that's what young girls do, they fearlessly roam the streets.

Crabtree
Oct 17, 2012

ARRRGH! Get that wallet out!
Everybody: Lowtax in a Pickle!
Pickle! Pickle! Pickle! Pickle!

Dinosaur Gum
The only way to do Joker right in this show is have multiple people that have the possibility of becoming him show up, only to be eventually eliminated or disappear and reappear as sill Not Joker. The greatest entertainment, besides having one of these potential jokers turn out to be Creeper, would be in seeing the delicious negative reaction viewers could give to being constantly baited and switched every time they expect to have Joker be given to them on a silver platter by Before Batman.

Other than this, Gotham needs to be the most oppressive character and perfect poo poo-show microcosm of American Corruption on the whole. Bring out the eternal crime syndicates and untouchable Falconi mob families, show us robber baron CEOs and Charles Ponzis trying to twist the city out of a quick dime in the down-time of Wayne Corp, give us political schemers that will make Frank Underwood look like Jimmy Carter. Let Gordon have some victories so he can be a rewarding yet outmatched hero, but make people hungry for a Batman.

stev
Jan 22, 2013

Please be excited.



Will people really be that bothered about having no Batman to carry the show? Batman has always been the least interesting thing about Batman. The only reason you might need him is so that he could instigate the 'better class of criminal' that resulted in all of the cool villains.

I honestly believe Gordon fighting a useless fight against Gotham's criminal underbelly and the corrupt police force could carry a show, but the trailer made it clear that they're more interested in foreshadowing and prequelising every character and element that audience like. A couple of young villains would be interesting, but every single loving one and babby Batman is really concerning.

gently caress Arrow though.

Assepoester
Jul 18, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
Melman v2

Mq posted:

And what exactly will this baby Joker do? Stuff baby Bruce Wayne into his school locker?
Well...






Steve2911 posted:

gently caress Arrow though.
Why?




SimonChris posted:

I don't understand why they aren't just doing a Gotham Central show. It's such a perfect premise for an original crime procedural.
They would have to pay royalties to Brubaker and Rucka.

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Krad
Feb 4, 2008

Touche

That's bull, we're getting a freakin' Flash show, there's no excuse at this point.

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