Gotham: Batman Before

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Gotham: Batman Before

SamuraiFoochs: Jan 16, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Probably Magic posted:

Honestly, I view the Joker's intro here to be more as a plot device for Thompson-Gordon's story anyway. The show needed to show that Thompson was gung ho for even the darkest, creepiest corner of Gotham, a bravada that is probably going to bite her in the rear end sometime around the season finale and end her and Gordon's relationship. So what's the darkest rabbit hole you can go down? The start of the Joker. And Thompson looks at it and says, "Gee, what fun!"

Maybe that's giving the screenwriters way too much credit and they just really wanted the Joker to show up for the sweeps week. But I think it works (unless you idolize the Joker as the pinnacle of villains which I don't because whatever). I really liked this episode. Nice uses of transitions, and the flipping from character to character with some music playing from Penguin's nightclub worked well for me. The Barbara thing is over-the-top stupid, which is right where it belongs. The Fish thing stretches a bit, but by and large, I think Jada's acting and the character played as more interesting and layered than it has been. They clearly want her around for awhile and want to answer the question of, "How did Fish get this far anyway? What makes her in any way formidable?" So here we are. She is probably going to stick around into next season, maybe longer.

Yeah, I'm with this with regards to the Joker. I may be forgiving it in the sense that I thought the actor was actually really good (it's hard to do psychotic breaks like that seamlessly and in a way that builds and he nailed it, IMO), and really, why would anyone get their panties in a wad about any Joker origin story when a huge part of The Joker is that his origin is ambiguous? He has no concrete origin, because he's loving insane. Is this really any worse than a guy falling in a vat of chemicals or a lovely standup comic deciding to snap?

# ¿ Feb 18, 2015 07:00

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 10:16

SamuraiFoochs: Jan 16, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Jetfire posted:

It could be the showrunners are going to throw us multiple possible origin stories for Joker (i.e. several insane laughing people) throughout the show and in the end have none of them end up being The Joker.

That would actually be great but that actor did such a legit great job that I'm torn.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2015 08:54

SamuraiFoochs: Jan 16, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Phenotype posted:

It's been a while since I've read it, but while I remember the Joker telling the story, I would also swear there was a bit shortly afterwards where Batman or Gordon said "is that the truth?" and Joker responds "who can really say? I've always preferred the past to be multiple-choice."

I had always thought that was the basis for the multiple origin stories the Joker gives in The Dark Knight.

That's pretty much it, yep. He voluntarily undermines his own narrative.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2015 16:25

SamuraiFoochs: Jan 16, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Rarity posted:

Guys, the showrunners said when the show began that they planned to introduce a bunch of different potential Jokers, there's no reason to think that's changed

I hate that if only because my stance remains that this actor nailed it pretty drat perfectly. They blew their load too early.

Also I seriously think Fish Mooney is dragging this show down so loving hard. I hope Penguin ganks her.

# ¿ Feb 19, 2015 08:13

SamuraiFoochs: Jan 16, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Believe it or not a YouTube comment nailed why I liked Jerome as a potential Joker so much: that actor nailed bits and pieces of every iconic Joker performance. There are bits of Nicholson in there, mostly in the word choices, some major Ledger mannerisms and diction, and that loving laugh is Hamill-esque.

They blew one of their best possible performances on what I'm assuming is a red herring. :negative:

# ¿ Feb 19, 2015 08:29

SamuraiFoochs: Jan 16, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Sub Rosa posted:

That was really bad, but having that kid not be the Joker really would just make it be even worse.

Serious question, did you find the origin story bad, or the performance? The former I get, the latter I don't. Also agreed. The whole "multiple Jokers" thing just reeks of the writers hedging their bets to prevent people from :qq:

ing too much instead of sticking to something. I originally thought the Joker fakeouts thing was a good idea, but nah.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2015 09:30

SamuraiFoochs: Jan 16, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Xealot posted:

I thought that, as well...and yup, fakeout options would actually suck just as much.

The reason the classic "multiple choice" idea works so well, I think, is the sense that something more happenstance or accidental broke him. It's not that the Joker was necessarily from some crazy environment, but that some specific trauma he experienced or accident that happened changed his whole life, and his reaction was a psychotic break. In a sense, he's the potential for madness in all of us, either because "who he was before" is totally mundane or because it's a complete mystery.

"He was raised in the circus and his first kill is his own slutty mother!" is such an overreaching way to 'explain' him, though...like he's Norman Bates or Rorschach. The weirdness and specificity of it casts all the craziness off onto his context, which kind of takes away from what's so strong about him as a character.

Agreed. The origin story was poo poo but I thought the performance was fantastic.

Also "no origin story" doesn't work unless he's a lot older than Batman or is some criminal wunderkind and to me, Kid Joker who's 100% Joker is somehow worse.

SamuraiFoochs fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Feb 20, 2015

# ¿ Feb 20, 2015 16:06

SamuraiFoochs: Jan 16, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Sub Rosa posted:

Mostly the former, but the performance sort of punctuates it. It was way way too "fully formed Joker," just put a clown suit and some make up on him, and he's already the Joker. His performance wasn't "disturbed kid with disturbing grin that hints of the Joker" it was "take the most noticeable parts of the three most famous depictions of this character and do that all at once."

This is not a subtle show, and it outdid itself in not being subtle, and I think it's hilarious anyone could think this kid isn't the Joker. It's more likely that Nygma isn't the Riddler or Cobblepot isn't Penguin.

That's a fair point, I guess I'm jussayin' the writers probably told the kid "go full Joker" and I think he deserves props for nailing that part even if it's a dumb writing/directing/whatever else decision.

Davros1 posted:

Did they ever state that killing his mother was his first murder? It's a traveling circus. Maybe he's left bodies all over the place.

Not at all. Dude could be full blown sociopath and this is just what they caught. In fact, kinda implied in the exchange with Cicero. I took it that this "kindness" was NOT the first one he extended to Jerome.

Shadoer posted:

I don't know, I like the "no origin story" thing because it gives the Joker a supernatural like quality. Part of the charm of Heath Ledger's Joker was that he had no origin which made it almost as if he was the devil in human form.

I didn't say it was a bad idea. I said it wouldn't work on Gotham unless A) he's significantly older than Bruce and I always got the impression Batman and the Joker are supposed to be close in age to drive home that the truth is they're a couple steps away from being the same or B) you have "fully formed wunderkind Joker" which is this criticism cranked up to 11.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2015 18:52

SamuraiFoochs: Jan 16, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Sub Rosa posted:

Oh, certainly, I'm not blaming the actor, I'm sure he gave them exactly the performance they wanted.

And doing that well couldn't have been easy. All I know is more and more with shows like this I've grown to appreciate really good villain performances even if they're hammy and over the top. And if there's any character who should be that, it's The Joker. I was sold as soon as the laugh hit. Hamill is possibly the best Joker ever vocally speaking and that laugh was Hamill-esque. I know some people dislike a lack of subtlety, but I personally don't mind it in a show set in a comic book universe. I wasn't nuts about the material, but I LOVED that performance so much that it made me overlook the other flaws if that makes sense. But that's just me.

I still want Fish dead. I hate her, she sucks, and is nearly ruining the show for me. Any time a Fish scene comes on I just stop paying attention.

# ¿ Feb 20, 2015 19:14

SamuraiFoochs: Jan 16, 2007; Grimey Drawer

I wanted Fish to jam the spoon too far and brain herself. We can't have nice things.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2015 21:16

SamuraiFoochs: Jan 16, 2007; Grimey Drawer

Craptacular! posted:

I'm really surprised we haven't gotten even a hint of Ra's AlGhul. He's immortal and can be played by basically anybody.

I honestly wonder if Ra's being a huge part of a show on a rival network is an issue.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2015 21:48

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 10:16

SamuraiFoochs: Jan 16, 2007; Grimey Drawer

I liked it. :shobon:

Please stay dead, Fish.

Babs. :stare:

I certainly wasn't expecting that.

# ¿ May 5, 2015 22:17

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > TV IV > Gotham: Batman Before