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  • Locked thread
haljordan
Oct 22, 2004

the corpse of god is love.






Was the debate ever settled as to whether or not Tim Allen actually believes the stuff his character says? I mean, it's not like the guy ever has to work again so you'd think he wouldn't take a role that requires him to say all this poo poo he doesn't agree with. Then again.......money.

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Poor Miserable Gurgi
Dec 29, 2006

He's a wisecracker!
He's also an executive producer for the show. If he fundamentally disagreed with anything he was saying, he has the power to swing it the Carroll O'Connor direction and have his character made out to be in the wrong. Instead, he pours money into a show where he says racist and misogynist stuff that is portrayed as fundamental truth.

haljordan
Oct 22, 2004

the corpse of god is love.






Practical Demon posted:

He's also an executive producer for the show. If he fundamentally disagreed with anything he was saying, he has the power to swing it the Carroll O'Connor direction and have his character made out to be in the wrong. Instead, he pours money into a show where he says racist and misogynist stuff that is portrayed as fundamental truth.

I just don't understand the thought process. It's like "Hey you know what group needs to be taken down a peg? Native Americans!"

edit: Apparently Tim Allen turned down $50 million for a ninth season of Home Improvement so he's not all about the money all the time.

haljordan fucked around with this message at 19:55 on May 21, 2014

Poor Miserable Gurgi
Dec 29, 2006

He's a wisecracker!
It's probably less "let's stick it to Native Americans" and more, "PC bullshit is taking away my free speech to romanticize the genocide of millions!"

Propaganda Machine
Jan 2, 2005

Truthiness!

haljordan posted:

Apparently Tim Allen turned down $50 million for a ninth season of Home Improvement so he's not all about the money all the time.

As a teenager at the time :eng101:

The kids were out. JTT had walked a year earlier, and for whatever his faults, Tim Allen respects the hell out of Patricia Richardson (has she been up to anything?) Anyway, they chatted, and seemed to agree that the show wouldn't be anything good without the kids.

My dad actually graduated from Tim Allen's high school at about the same time. I don't want to draw too many parallels, but I think my dad would really like LMS :cripes:

GaussianCopula
Jun 5, 2011
Jews fleeing the Holocaust are not in any way comparable to North Africans, who don't flee genocide but want to enjoy the social welfare systems of Northern Europe.

Propaganda Machine posted:

The kids were out. JTT had walked a year earlier, and for whatever his faults, Tim Allen respects the hell out of Patricia Richardson (has she been up to anything?) Anyway, they chatted, and seemed to agree that the show wouldn't be anything good without the kids.

Patricia Richardson played the daughter of the GOP presidential candidate in the final season of the west wing.

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009

Glory to Mankind.

Last Man Standing
"Breaking Curfew"
Season 2, Episode 15

I've now reached the point where I actively dislike getting good episodes of LMS to review, because I now have the benefit of a cold, certain knowledge that it will only get worse from here. There is a comfort in expecting a show to be bad, week in and out- you know what you're getting and if you're a fan of it it never exceeds your expectations. It's even somewhat exciting, when you ask yourself every week "How will this week's episode be bad?" and you gain a perverse enjoyment from seeing how the show can lower that particular bar. People who watch The Following fall directly into this group; the show never gets better so you can just sort of disconnect yourself and completely lean in and enjoy the awful.

My supposition is that a mostly-bad show is the worst sort of show; it introduces the worst and most deceitful of all emotions, Hope. Hope that the show will be better going forward, the hope that finally the writers have shed the myriad problems that plague what could be a decent or even good show, the hope that maybe- just maybe -everyone involved somehow woke up from their trance and are producing quality television. Such is my feelings towards Last Man Standing.

Even though at this point I know, objectively, that the show will crush my dreams in a future episode- perhaps even in the very next episode I will review -it doesn't matter. Hope is by definition an illogical emotion to feel; it is predicated on ignoring reality and clinging to a possibility, the more faint it is the stronger the emotion will be. Watching an episode like "Breaking Curfew" only seeks to make the next F I give sting all the worse, the next terrible episode I see all the more painful, because I know this cast and staff have talent. They just refuse to ever use it outside of episodes like this.

"Breaking Curfew" deals with the complications that always arise at the beginnings of relationships. The main plot deals with Kyle and Mandy's, as they both are trying to figure out how physical they want to get and how soon. This progresses as predictably as you'd think: Mandy wants to have sex as quickly as possible. Kyle's fine with that until Mike, who is aware of what's happening due to Eve's spying, intervenes. Kyle, who I guess never had a father growing up, views Mike as a father figure. Mike leverages this position to tell Kyle to, in a roundabout way, respect Mandy's boundaries. They're about to have sex before Kyle decides he wants to get to know her better first. Touching endscene, roll credits.

Firstly, making this a Kyle-centric plotline was smart, due to him being one of if not the funniest and most likable character in the cast. In addition, making the moral not "don't have sex before marriage", but "having sex too early in a relationship can ruin it" feels remarkably progressive and realistic of LMS. Teenagers are going to have sex, so giving a lesson that is applicable and useful over an empty, pie-in-the-sky truism is actually helpful.

Echoing the theme of the episode, relationships, with the B plot was also intelligent. Ryan and Kristen, who have been hooking up on the sly, have to wrestle with how to tell Boyd and the rest of Kristen's family that they're seeing each other again. Although the stakes are very low, they're real ones. It definitely feels like a realistic, and confusing conflict that two people in their positions would have to tackle- how do you tell your son born out of wedlock that his father and mother are romantically linked again? It's not an easy question to answer, and LMS treats such a question with the seriousness that such a problem deserves. Because of this, you're invested with both Ryan and Kristen throughout this entire episode, and overall it's some really great character growth for both Ryan and Kristen.

Most importantly though the episode is just funny. It seems like the writer's room actually woke up and remembered that they're, you know, sitcom writers and decide to for once actually put in the effort to add jokes to the script. As a result the episode is genuinely funny and I actually laughed out loud several times. A very decent episode of television.

It can only get worse from here.

Grade: B

Random Thoughts:
  • LMS has made it so I can't even enjoy genuinely enjoyable episodes any more, out of a fear that eventually the other shoe will drop. I feel like the Reek to LMS' Ramsay Snow.
  • Mike: "It's cold because of those size 9 popsicles you call feet."
  • Vanessa (watching Mandy sneak through a window): "What is she doing?! It's four hours past her curfew!" Mike: "And she has a key..."
  • Mike: "Actually he's dating Mandy now." Ed: "KYLE PULLED OFF SISTERS?!"
  • Kyle: "Well, let's see. We were watching TV for a while. There's a rat loose in my apartment...so my roommate got a snake to catch it. And uh...last night we couldn't find the snake, so now we're getting a mongoose. And- because we learned our lesson -a mongoose leash."
  • Vanessa: "We already know they went to first place. I mean they're holding hands, right?" Mike: "Holding hands? That's not a base, that's not even in a stadium."
  • Vanessa: "I always thought kissing was second base, and third base was tongue." Mike: "Well your boyfriends must've been excited when they got to, what was it, eighth base?"

NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 22:14 on May 21, 2014

Dolash
Oct 23, 2008

aNYWAY,
tHAT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS,
tO REPORT ON THE SUBJECT,
oF ME GETTING HURT,


E PLURIBUS ANUS posted:

Ryan literally uses that as a defense and Mike just straight up ignores it

Bringing this point back from the last episode because it's the crowning turd in the waterpipe. It means someone in the writing room was smart enough to notice the problem and decided to deflect it, which is worse than them all just being too dim to spot the obvious comparison.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009

Dolash posted:

Bringing this point back from the last episode because it's the crowning turd in the waterpipe. It means someone in the writing room was smart enough to notice the problem and decided to deflect it, which is worse than them all just being too dim to spot the obvious comparison.

They probably thought it was being clever and lampshading it.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

E PLURIBUS ANUS posted:


Grade: B

[/list]

It really seems like someone high up involved with the show has a huge hard-on for the disgusting conservative stuff that goes on in half the episodes and more or less orders the writers to do x white male conservative viewpoints, and when left alone the staff can actual write a decent show.

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
I want to thank the OP and Deadpool for the single most entertaining TV IV thread I've read in years. Also possibly one of the best on the site.

Once he's done with all of these you really should consider compressing them into some kind of front page article. This is gold. OP, you are a trooper!

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

E PLURIBUS ANUS posted:

HOLY poo poo 208 OF LAST MAN STANDING MAKES A JOKE ABOUT HOW THE WORD "friend of the family" ISN'T ACTUALLY HURTFUL

!

!


!

Reading this thread for the first time and this post literally made me spittake. I didn't think it could get worse. Time to strap in and read the next review..

I Am Fowl
Mar 8, 2008

nononononono
EPA, the topic title has committed you to seasons 2 & 3. I'd just like you to know, that season 3 is much worse.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth

Mr. Fowl posted:

EPA, the topic title has committed you to seasons 2 & 3. I'd just like you to know, that season 3 is much worse.

It's on Hulu so I've been watching some random episodes when I'm bored, and yea, it's a garbage fire.

Have fun!

sbaldrick
Jul 19, 2006
Driven by Hate
Given that something like 90% of separated couples (this may be more towards divorced couples) will have sex at least once after they break up. Ryan and Kristin getting back together is normal.

What the gently caress show.

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009

Glory to Mankind.

Last Man Standing
"Private Coach"
Season 2, Episode 16

This is a strange episode of LMS, because you can graph the point at which the episode completely falls apart. Before then, it's an altogether unremarkable episode of television, light on laughs but overall inoffensive. Then, at about 19 minutes "Private Coach" pulls the metaphorical rug out from underneath the audience's feet and completely destroys the narrative and overall point of the episode. As a reviewer I'm left to sift through the pieces, much like a police detective in the aftermath of a violent crime, trying to figure out how and why this atrocity could happen. And, much like the theoretical detective, I'm simply left with more questions than answers.

Eve and Mike have been arguing, since in her most recent soccer game she choked in the clutch. Mike, who believes that Eve is good enough to get a scholarship for soccer, decides to hire Octavio (Ezequiel Stremiz), her team's assistant coach, to provide private lessons to Eve.

The Baxter women are all excited over this news, due to Octavio being a Latin hunk, leading Mandy to openly fantasize about Octavio as Kyle enters stage left. Luckily, or rather unluckily, Kyle seems to be is unperturbed by this, and shrugs it off. Mandy, however, is furious- she wanted Kyle to be jealous of what she did, which leads them to, of course, have a fight about the fact that Kyle doesn't want to fight. Kyle accidentally tells Mandy to "Calm down, Kristin", which understandably offends Mandy.

Mandy quickly bounces back as she realizes that it's totally fine that Kyle called her Kristin because she was "being a bitch" (and therefore he must associate being a bitch with Mandy, I guess), then apologizes to Kyle for openly fantasizing about Octavio in the first place. It's a bizarre ending to an overall bizarre plot that mostly works due to Christoph Sanders being an excellent comedic actor and Molly Ephraim being genuinely enjoyable to watch onscreen, although the resolution and overall point was a nonsensical mess. Not as bad as the main plot's, however.

Meanwhile, Octavio, who has been privately tutoring Eve, tells Mike and Vanessa that Eve simply is not a good enough soccer player to attain a scholarship, which is why he has been recommending switching her to defense for the "joy [of the game]". Mike angrily scoffs at such an idea, responding that the Baxters do nothing for the "joy", they work to be the best, and fires Octavio.

Eve, upset that Octavio has stopped being her private tutor, confronts Mike about why he fired him, to which Mike responds (somewhat cruelly) that Octavio didn't believe she had a chance to get a scholarship. Eve, in response, runs up to her room in tears.

Okay so it's at this point that I felt, within the episode, that they were building to the obvious sitcom conclusion: Mike would realize, or be prodded by Vanessa into realizing, that setting insane expectations for his daughter can be actively detrimental (as the very first scene of this episode showed how he would get unbelievably upset over the smallest mistakes that Eve would make). Mike would also realize that there's no harm in simply enjoying something without an expectation of being the best at it/material gain from performing it. Mike would go up to Eve's room, apologize for the way he acted and the somewhat cold way he explained why he fired Octavio and learn a valuable lesson about the harm in pushing your kids unnecessarily. Predictable ending, but expected, right?

NOPE. Eve storms back down the stairs, cleats in hand, and insists that Mike drive her to the field to practice more, because as she puts it no "Euro-Dork" is gonna tell her what she can and can't do. They're Baxters, she reminds the audience, and they, of course, don't do anything for the joy.

It's a bizarre and convoluted ending. On one hand, having Eve decide "gently caress that, I don't care what other people say" is a strong statement for her character's individuality and self-reliance. On the other, this essentially means that Mike, I guess...was right all along? He learned nothing? It's just such a weird and unclear ending to what should've been a straightforward episode. I'm not offended, merely confused. Examining this episode's crime scene I get no sense of motive or narrative through line- the episode's ending just burst in, caused as much damage as possible, then left, for no adequately explained reason.

This is echoed in the B plot's resolution- instead of Mandy learning that it's hosed up to expect your SO to be jealous and to get upset when they don't, or that it's a genuinely offensive thing to be called another person's name by your SO, especially if that person in question is your sister who your SO also dated, she instead learns...everything's fine because Kristin's a real bitch, I guess? There's no clear narrative in the final scenes for any of the plots of this episode and as a result it retroactively ruined any enjoyment I attained up to that point.

But that's fine, because I'm an Occupation, and I don't review Last Man Standing for the joy of it.

Grade: D

Random Thoughts:
  • Kristin: "I like to think that we all have our own strengths. For instance Mandy has her keen fashion sense, and I...am fertile."
  • Mike: "If he's able to teach her anything, she might get a scholarship. She gets a scholarship, I...I could get a boat."
  • Mandy: "Umm...are you mad?" Kyle: "Sort of...I mean, Kyle's a pretty common name."
  • Mandy: "No, I mean, like, aren't you mad that you caught me staring out of the window drooling over a gorgeous guy?" Kyle: "God! Mandy, that's your father!"
  • Kyle: "I really don't like fighting. If Mandy and I pull through this one, I'm never having another one." Ed: "...Solid plan."

SpiderHyphenMan
Apr 1, 2010

by Fluffdaddy

haljordan posted:

Was the debate ever settled as to whether or not Tim Allen actually believes the stuff his character says? I mean, it's not like the guy ever has to work again so you'd think he wouldn't take a role that requires him to say all this poo poo he doesn't agree with. Then again.......money.
He does.

Link contains spoilers, I guess.

precision
May 7, 2006

by VideoGames
Former cocaine dealer becomes smug Conservative rear end in a top hat, you don't say.

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009

Glory to Mankind.

Last Man Standing
"The Fight"
Season 2, Episode 17

Last Man Standing's penultimate episode of the season is another signifier of the rather schizophrenic, tonally inconsistent end the show is limping to as it closes out season 2. This lack of confidence in its own premise is most evident with the main plot of the episode: Ryan has taken Boyd out of school to watch the opening day baseball game alongside Mike and Eve. Mike is accosted at the game by Bill McKendree, whom you may remember from the midseason episode "Attractive Architect". Apparently, losing the construction project has turned Bill into an alcoholic deadbeat, as his gold-digging wife left him once the money dried up. He angrily confronts Mike, who he believes to be the source of all of his problems, and in the process accidentally spills a cup of beer all over Boyd. This ends with Bill getting punched in the face by- way for it -Ryan.

Ryan, eventually, feels guilt over his actions (combined with being upset over Boyd being scared of him now) and apologizes to Bill by the end of the episode.

The problem is, much like with last episode, one of tone. Ryan's act of punching Bill is presented as both an overreaction and a perfectly valid one. On one hand, it creates real negative consequences in Ryan's life, including having to be fingerprinted at the police station, Bill pressing charges, Boyd's general fear of him, Ryan's generalized guilt, and Kristin being upset with him. In addition, the inciting incident, the beer spillage, was clearly an accident perpetuated by a drunk idiot (Bill). On the other, Bill is presented as such an rear end in a top hat in the lead-up to the event that it's hard not to root for Ryan, especially when it involves his kid. Plus, there's an entire three minute scene near the end of the episode where Mike of all people defends Ryan's actions to Boyd, using the line of thought of "Ryan was protecting his family" (And, really disgustingly, Mike intimidates Boyd into not acting up because "You saw what [Ryan] can do." Hooray for child abuse?) On top of that, Bill himself thanks Ryan for punching him, because it apparently was the motivation Bill needed to quit drinking. Apparently the moral is everyone needs a good punch in the face in order to quit their life-crippling vices? Or something?

It doesn't help that up until this episode, the entire season has placed Ryan firmly in the role of "show punching bag". Every previous episode up until this one we're clearly supposed to root against this feminist, liberal, pussy of a man. So when Ryan punches Bill, that doesn't change how the audience views him enough to be "on his side". Are we, the audience, still supposed to be against Ryan? Because that would make us all the pussified liberals the show rails against.

The confusing message is compounded by when, even as Ryan has his "moment", wherein Mike has at least an ounce of respect for him, it's all undercut by Mike's backhanded "compliments" intimating that Ryan is a giant pussy who had one "manly response". Mike's lines during these scenes merely chum the sitcom waters, especially since during these scenes Ryan temporarily completely abandons characters and becomes the masculine manly man that Mike wants all men to be- totally fine with, and even reveling in, causing violence to another person because it's like, so rad.

If the episode had simply took a side, that violence against other people who piss you off/to "defend your family" (Boyd was never in any real danger at any point) is either totally awesome and manly or it's disgusting and barbaric, the episode would've been stronger. Inexplicably, I'm arguing for a simpler message, because the one we got was baffling bordering on incoherent.

This feeling is echoed in the main subplot of the episode, wherein Mandy gets all of her electronic items banned so as to focus on passing her history class. She needs to write a term paper on World War II and is confounded until she discovers Mike's ham radio (which Kyle is currently talking to Ed- who is in the Amazon -on), which she then uses as her own private chat room. I think this idea, on paper, is genuinely brilliant- a socially networked Millenial like Mandy would get a real kick out of a ham radio, since the people who use ham radios in this day and age are fascinating weirdos. It also resolves the central problem interestingly- Mandy meets and befriends a bunch of WWII vets over the radio, who tell her their personal stories which allows her to write her paper with no research.

The problem is the resolution undercuts the plot's ostensible point. When Mandy resolves her issue, caused by her incessant social networking, via...social networking, there's no point, even if the resolution itself is a clever one. It makes the entire subplot feel unnecessary, and hanging a lampshade on it (To wit: Vanessa: "See how much easier it is to focus when you're not wasting all of your time chatting with your friends?" Mandy: "Yeah Mom, that's exactly what I learned from this entire experience.") just points out how poorly written the episode ended up being.

It really feels like the writing staff itself had no idea how to write this episode so threw everything into a pot and made this stew of an episode. And like any poorly made stew, some parts are well cooked, but other parts are burnt and other parts raw. Overall it makes the episode "taste" awkward and unfocused from beginning to end, with no real point to it.

Grade: D

Random Thoughts:

  • Also way to sell out using Richard Karn, Last Man Standing, by making his character into the biggest douchebag in the whole world. Now I don't really ever want to see him again on LMS because of how much of an awful dick he is this episode.
  • Ryan: "Look, the only thing Boyd learned was if you push his dad too far, you're putting your physical health in substantial...peril." Mike: "Man you're terrible at this."
  • Mandy: "Just checkin' out my pie...Nope, still not in there."
  • Mike: "That's how you build a polite society...through violence."
  • Ed: "Yeah I met a fella down here in Brazil with a lot of fantastic war stories. He's 92, bitter, and speaks with a German accent. You do the math." (Yes, LMS actually did an "Ed met Hitler" joke.)

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
Man, this show is so weird. Reading that review was totally baffling, and not because of the writing.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009
Well, I think using Karn like that must be intentional, considering his role's intended to remind you of Home Improvement and Al was basically the nicest guy in the world (and was pretty much a 'pussified liberal' AND a 'manly man' at the same time, which was the core joke of the Tool Time segments), so they contrast that by having him be a dick in this show.

Arsonist Daria
Feb 27, 2011

Requiescat in pace.
The B-story doesn't sound that tonally inconsistent, at least not as much as the main plot. It's honestly kind of clever; a Millennial demonstrates that, despite how inanely time is spent on the Internet, the set of skills it develops can be useful and relevant. It's certainly more than you'd expect out of a show that says "Wouldn't Obama be better if he weren't so drat not-white?"

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009

Glory to Mankind.

Last Man Standing
"College Girl"
Season 2, Episode 18

The season finale for season 2 of Last Man Standing ties up enough loose ends while dangling enough potential new ones to be a satisfactory conclusion to the season, overall.

Mandy, who as foreshadowed in the previous episode is on the cusp of graduating high school, has been accepted to two colleges: UC Denver, and the much more expensive and difficult Laguna Beach University (with the help of Ed pulling some strings). Currently, she wants to go to LBU, since it's of course in the much more scenic California. Unfortunately Mike blanches at the cost, while simultaneously worries that Mandy will simply go to LBU and waste her parents' money on partying over any real work.

This leads into the first issue I had with the episode. I simply despise it when a conflict is built around characters not talking to each other. It's the most dishonest form of "conflict" because the solution is so completely, utterly simple- have these characters talk to each other. Unfortunately, here, we're subjected to a scene where Mike, with Ed's assistance, manipulates Kyle into thinking that Mandy will leave and/or cheat on him if she goes to LBU. It's just dishonest and kind of gross when Mike could simply cut out the middleman instead of emotionally manipulating the only genuinely good-hearted person on the whole show, but whatever.

Luckily the show immediately abandons this line of thinking and simply has Kyle and Mandy pledge to move to LBU together. A bad idea, to be sure, but at least a much purer one than emotional manipulation, and it forces Vanessa and Mike to own up and simply tell Mandy that they don't think that she has either the intelligence or motivation to succeed at LBU. This irritates Mandy, of course, who pledges not to go to any college. The sentiment lasts for approximately five minutes until Mandy finds the altogether reasonable compromise of going to UC Denver to "prove" to her parents that she's committed to taking college seriously.

Although this plot was overall kind of a mess, eventually the show landed it fairly well, so it overall works.

Kristin, on the other hand, is struggling with her growing dissatisfaction in life after meeting a former diner buddy, John Baker (Jonathan Taylor Thomas), while on a date with Ryan. Seeing John as the owner of the fancy, high-class restaurant she is eating in puts a fine point on how little she has accomplished, compounded by Ryan's offer to move in with her. Although it's an ostensibly selfless move on Ryan's part- as he says, them living together means she can go to more college courses and spend less time in a diner- to Kristin, it represents moving out of one man's house and into another man's apartment. She finally decides to take control of her life, dramatically quitting her job, getting a new one working for John Baker's restaurant, and moving out to a high-class neighborhood all in quick succession. And, in a nice inversion of the norm, she invites Ryan to live with her, in a moment for female independence that genuinely lands.

The theme of this episode is about change: Mandy changing schools, Kristin changing jobs and living situations, etc. As a season finale they change enough moving forward in the fundamental dynamics of the show that I'm excited to see how the show in Season 3 handles these shifts.

As a pure episode of TV, this isn't anything special and is still very flawed: There's a scene between Ryan, Chuck Larabee, and Mike in the middle of the episode that seems to only make Ryan look like a hypocritical racist before Chuck, the black character, assures him that his fears are totally founded. But, as a capper to a season of television that was often excruciating, this services the characters of Last Man Standing in a way that was personally satisfying to me. I would never, under any circumstance, recommend anyone watch this show or this season, but if you are, then you will find the closure you need in this season finale. And that's all I can really ask of LMS.

Grade: B

Random Thoughts:
  • Jonathan Taylor Thomas showing up was a nice surprise, even if all he really exists is to be the right-wing bizarro, vaguely douchey version of Ryan.
  • What's with bringing back Home Improvement actors and making them douchey mirror versions of the characters they played on HI? First Richard Karn and now JTT. Weird.
  • Eve has a subplot with Chuck wherein she learns JROTC rifle drills. The amount of importance I've attached to this plotline is roughly equal to its overall importance to the episode. Seemingly, Eve is only in JROTC whenever the writers for LMS remember that she is, becaue it's barely ever mentioned.
  • Kristin: "It's just hard being the oldest kid when the youngest is Dad's favorite and the middle child is the breakout star everyone swoons over." John: "You know, a lot of times that middle child becomes the funny one because he wants the attention."
  • Kristin: "They're not very selective. You got a warm body, you're in." Eve: "Which is also Mandy's policy..."
  • Mike (to John): "Man, you look familiar."

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
cool. Now get started on season 3.

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009

Glory to Mankind.

I'M DONE WITH SEASON 2 IN REVIEW gently caress YEAH

Deadpool it would be rad if you could change the thread title to reflect this

Anyways I'm taking a break, reviewing this season stressed me out and I need to relax

:siren:STUFF YOU SHOULD READ::siren:

Onion AV Club review of 218 that also is a season as a whole review: link

Todd VanDerWerff does a season 2 analysis comparing this season to Til Death Season 4: link


After the break (which should be about a week or so) I'll do a season in review...review then jump in to season 3

NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 22:37 on May 22, 2014

Arsonist Daria
Feb 27, 2011

Requiescat in pace.
So I know literally nothing about this show outside of this thread, but how much do you want to bet that Ryan moving in with Kristin will be treated as some pussy-man bullshit and they will be punished for it?

Yoshifan823
Feb 19, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
Y'know, if you want to come up with a believable "Smart Person College" name, mayyyyyyyyybe don't name it after the county that gave us the show that gave us the show that gave us Heidi Montag.

FactsAreUseless
Feb 16, 2011

Are you going to review Work It and Man Up?

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






FactsAreUseless posted:

Are you going to review Work It and Man Up?

Can Lowtax be sued for medical expenses related to mod challenges? Because I'm pretty sure that would cause some kind of bodily harm to occur.

I Am Fowl
Mar 8, 2008

nononononono

FactsAreUseless posted:

Are you going to review Work It and Man Up?

Personally, I'd eat the ban. Some things just aren't worth dying for.

Postal Parcel
Aug 2, 2013

E PLURIBUS ANUS posted:

I'M DONE WITH SEASON 2 IN REVIEW gently caress YEAH

Deadpool it would be rad if you could change the thread title to reflect this

Anyways I'm taking a break, reviewing this season stressed me out and I need to relax

:siren:STUFF YOU SHOULD READ::siren:

Onion AV Club review of 218 that also is a season as a whole review: link

Todd VanDerWerff does a season 2 analysis comparing this season to Til Death Season 4: link


After the break (which should be about a week or so) I'll do a season in review...review then jump in to season 3

Todd VanDerWerff posted:

I am watching all of this for an upcoming column. It's been one of the most excruciating experiences of my life, even though about half the cast is genuinely enjoyable to watch (particularly Hector Elizondo and Molly Ephraim).
Are you Todd?
:confuoot:


e:

Yoshifan823 posted:

Y'know, if you want to come up with a believable "Smart Person College" name, mayyyyyyyyybe don't name it after the county that gave us the show that gave us the show that gave us Heidi Montag.

That's exactly what I thought when I read that name. Is that a real school? It's like if there were a Jersey Shore University name dropped as an upper tier school.

Postal Parcel fucked around with this message at 07:41 on May 23, 2014

SporkOfTruth
Sep 1, 2006

this kid walked up to me and was like man schmitty your stache is ghetto and I was like whatever man your 3b look like a dishrag.

he was like damn.

Postal Parcel posted:

That's exactly what I thought when I read that name. Is that a real school? It's like if there were a Jersey Shore University name dropped as an upper tier school.

Absolutely not. The university closest to Laguna Beach is UC Irvine (a state school, no less!).

Fionnoula
May 27, 2010

Ow, quit.

SporkOfTruth posted:

Absolutely not. The university closest to Laguna Beach is UC Irvine (a state school, no less!).

I think the next closest to that is Cal State University Fullerton (also a state school!)

hcreight
Mar 19, 2007

My name is Oliver Queen...
Mike would kill his daughter before allowing her to go to a public school in the Socialist State of California.

Propaganda Machine
Jan 2, 2005

Truthiness!
I'll admit it.

I watched that finale for the JTT action, and wasn't disappointed.

All the Home Improvement references were spot on and made me wish they'd bring it back for the kids' post-college years. Considering the actual quality of Home Improvement, it's a pretty damning thing to say about LMS.

Danny LaFever
Dec 29, 2008


Grimey Drawer
On Friday I saw an episode of Modern Family followed by LMS. Quite a stark contrast on what to do with two old rich white dudes and how they relate to their families.

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009

Glory to Mankind.

Last Man Standing
Season 2

Overall Season 2 was a mess, but a fascinating one. Perhaps not to watch, no, but conceptually, I think there was an at least interesting genesis of an idea buried underneath underneath the layers and layers and layers of poor writing, faulty logic, and the quite frankly, offensive messages espoused by the cast, especially the main character Mike.

As noted in multiple publications, the intentions of Tim Allen and new-to-season-2 showrunner Tim Doyle going in to season 2 of LMS were to modernize the beloved classic sitcom All in the Family for the modern millenium. The hope was, going in to the new season, that LMS would capture public zeitgeist the same way AitF did, and create a cultural and ratings touchstone in the same way that the Norman Lear classic did in the seventies.

This is an admirable goal, and one that sets itself apart from many modern-day sitcoms. Most to all sitcoms today are modeled after either Friends or Freaks and Geeks, with the overall plot either revolving around a group of friends and their various, rather mundane problems (Cougartown, New Girl, How I Met Your Mother etc.), or around a group of misfits and their various problems (Community, The Big Bang Theory, Parks and Recreation, The Office etc.) In either case the stakes are comparatively low and the conflicts are localized; many to most modern-day sitcoms deal only with worldwide problems if and only if they affect the cast themselves, and even then only address that issue from the perspective of the people involved.

Gone are the days of shows like The Jeffersons, All in the Family, or M*A*S*H, where the problems and issues the show(s) tackles are global and the shows themselves are trying to make a Big Statement.

So from a pure novelty standpoint, what LMS attempts to pull off in Season 2 is interesting, and even admirable; attempt to address Big, Serious Issues on network television like Norman Lear did time and again on his shows.

The problem, of course, lies in execution. From what I understand, despite having not seen it, season 1 of LMS was one of a trio of comedies (along with Work It and Man Up!) that dealt with the "mancession"; the concept that America, specifically America's Men, was losing its fundamental masculinity and needed to reclaim it to restore America's greatness. Unfortunately, this led to a show, at least within its first season, that had a man, Mike Baxter, surrounded by women and pussified, sensitive men who mine as well be women. This in turn led to the show mostly consisting of Mike Baxter's character angrily complaining about things throughout the season, which got rather old.

Going into season 2, LMS switched showrunners and a large part of the main cast was changed (Kristin's actress was recast and her baby daddy, Ryan was recast and made into a recurring character). In addition, the scope of the show itself was expanded; Mike's neighbors, specifically his new black neighbors, the Larabees, were added and featured in several episodes.

All of these moves were signifiers of the new direction the show was attempting to move; no longer would this be a low-simmering complainfest from Mike Baxter, the Ideal Man; this would be All in The Family 2.0, dealing with such heady, important topics as politics, race, homosexuality, and environmentalism. A noble goal, to be sure.

The problem is one of execution. Firstly, many to most of the quote-on-quote "important topics" raised were raised in the context of an ideological argument, not in the context of any real immediacy or importance to the characters themselves.

To explain myself more clearly, let's use an example. In the episode "Buffalo Bill", for instance, the episode opens with the cast putting on a quite frankly offensive Cowboys and Indians show a la Buffalo Bill's wild west shows. Ryan, the token liberal character, enters and the scene soon devolves into an argument between Ryan and Mike.

Unfortunately for neither of these characters are the stakes or context at all real. These are two white people arguing over how people should be treating non-white people. At no point in the episode is a Native American prominently featured or even shown onscreen to personalize the divide. For all intents and purposes, this argument could've been filmed at your family reunion when your hippie cousin and your red state uncle get drunk and yell at each other over politics. There's no point to the proceedings; it's arguing for the sake of arguing, which might be realistic but makes for terribly dull, mean-spirited television. You can't get invested with what either character is arguing because they're not invested.

Contrast to the show's inspiration, All in the Family. When Archie got into an argument with someone, especially Meathead, the stakes were immediately personal; Meathead and Archie going at it over Vietnam was important to Archie and Meathead because they both had a stake in it: Archie was a WWII vet, and Meathead was a protestor on the front lines. Convincing the other that they were wrong was so dramatically important to both people because they had both defined their entire lives around what they believed in. In contrast, Mike complaining, as he does in "Mike's Pole", about Ryan's lack of patriotism rings hollow because Mike's just a rich, lazy white dude who espouses empty jingoism from the comfort of his upper middle class lifestyle, while Ryan's never made any significant sacrifices to back up his anti-expansionist beliefs. It's, ironically, a perfect commentary on today's climate of slacktivism, where changing your facebook status or putting a magnetic ribbon on your car makes you a modern-day hero, the same as an Occupy protester or an Iraq vet. It's also just as irritating.

For most of the episodes of the season, especially the first half of the season, the plot of the episode plays out the same way: Mike finds something he doesn't like and then argues with someone, usually Ryan, over it. It makes the entire season feel like a book of Mad Libs, where every week the noun in "Mike and Ryan/Kristin argue over __________" gets switched out. Homosexuality? Sure! Racism? Toss it on the pile! Environmentalism? Whatever!

You can't sympathize with any of the characters, or even establish a connection with any of them, due to this format. In order to establish the argument dynamic present throughout the first 3/4 of the season, characters are either reduced to a Fox News style talking points spewing parrot, or have all of their characterization or dimensionality completely reversed in order to be an adequate contrarian to Mike. Or, worst of all, both.

Eve's character is a case in point. Many times throughout the season Eve shows signs of breaking her traditional "daddy's girl" conservative image in interesting ways, most notably on the episode "Mother Fracker", where she has an ideological disagreement with Mike and Vanessa over the issue of fracking. This leads her to stage her own Occupy protest in the backyard, and was a sign of interesting things to come; would Eve be shedding her image of always in agreement with whatever Mike says and thinks in order to have her own, more interesting set of ideological beliefs? Unfortunately by the end of the episode whatever progress is made in dimensionalizing her character is immediately reversed as she, by the episode, has shed all of her environmentalist beliefs for her own selfish comforts. This lack of progression of her character hurts Eve overall, which is all the more of a shame as Kaitlyn Dever is one of the bright spots in this show's cast, a genuine comedic force. However, the show's unwillingness to move her beyond the role of "daddy's girl" made her more and more unpleasant to watch onscreen and by the end of the season I didn't really want any more Eve plots. This, to be clear, is not a criticism of Kaitlyn Dever's acting; far from it in fact. It's all a criticism of what material she is forced to work with.

Finally, the main problem of the season overall, especially in comparison to All in the Family, was one of message. AitF was a very, very liberal show: Archie was presented as ignorant or flat-out wrong 90+% of the time. His belief systems, especially about race or the role of women in society, were so wrongheaded as to be laughable; much of the show's humor was built around laughing at Archie's character. Norman Lear pulled off a neat trick; he progressed society's views on many important issues by exaggerating the objectively wrong view to the point where the audience was laughing at the racist, misogynist idiot and in doing so internalized the message that "believing black people are bad is wrong" in a way that didn't need any message shoved down the audience's throat. The entire show was able to bypass criticisms of being "preachy" (which, admittedly, AitF still was a lot of the time) by making the message buried within the humor itself, not within whatever Archie learned.

Last Man Standing has none of this. LMS is, fundamentally, not a liberal show: its messages are more conservative than liberal-leaning. This is fine enough, except all the messages are as subtly applied as a brick to the face; they all boil down to some act three realization from Mike that, you know what, immigrants are okay people. It's sickly sweet storytelling that feels forced even as you're watching it, and it gives many episodes a Very Special, after school special feel to them.

In addition, many of the messages themselves are...troublesome, to say the least. For instance, in the episode "Bullying", the overall message of the episode seems to be "Don't call people slurs, although calling people 'gay' isn't really an insult. Unless they call you a 'dyke' first, then sure, call them 'gay' all day long. But don't tell anyone that you were called a dyke, because that'd make you a narc, which is worse than slurs. Dating people who call you slurs is fine too. Also, the n-word isn't bad."

The message is a hypocritical mess, contradicting itself many times over, in addition to overall endorsing homophobia, racism, and verbal abuse.

In addition the show simply doesn't have the guts to present Mike Baxter as the one who's wrong. As stated previously, All in the Family worked because Archie Bunker was not only objectively wrong, but the laughingstock of the show itself: his regressive views were the main source of the show's mockery. In contrast, Mike is presented, at best, as at least somewhat right; most of the time, his view is presented as the right one. So it's all the more upsetting when he's espousing a racist or misogynist view as the show presents his argument as, at the very least, debatably correct.

In addition his chief ideological opponent, Ryan, is presented incorrectly within the show's narrative itself; Meathead, despite his flaws of character, was usually right. Within the show itself, the message for Meathead's character was usually "What Meathead is saying is the correct opinion, what he is doing makes him a hypocrite." In contrast, for Ryan on LMS the message seems to be "What Ryan is saying is incorrect, which is compounded by what he's doing making him a hypocrite".

The show also suffered throughout the season of being unable to address any issue with nuance. Every hot-button issue was argued over with the easiest, dullest, most soundbite-tastic one-liners from Mike et al, with no consideration that perhaps the issue could in fact be more complicated than how it was presented. Usually, in fact, the show presented Mike as right, just histrionic and a loudmouth.

Eventually, though, in the final quarter of the season the show switched from the worldly issues to the interpersonal ones, as Kyle began dating Mandy and Ryan began seeing Kristin again. This was overall to the show's benefit as instead of dealing, ineptly, with issues that none of the characters really cared about or had any real investment in, the show brought real stakes to the characters via romantic relationships. This wasn't revolutionary television, nor even all that good television, but by making the problems real and personal it grounded the show beyond its smug bloviating for the first 3/4 of the season.

This was all summed up with the finale, as Kristin moved out of the Baxter home, Ryan moved in with her, and Mandy left for college. Having the characters progress and disrupt their lives in major-to-minor ways spells hope for the show going in to season 3, and the writing as a whole picked up as the season progressed (except for Eve's writing, as Kaitlyn Dever, inversely, got shorter and shorter shrift as the season went it). Hopefully, in season 3, the show can figure out that attempting to emulate one of the greatest and most important sitcoms of all time, ineptly, was a mistake, because the show itself has some really great pieces: Kaitlyn Dever is a fantastic comedic actress, Molly Ephraim is fun to watch onscreen, Tim Allen is considered a comedy great for a reason, and the cast as a whole is willing to commit to the script, no matter how poor it is. Instead of attempting to make a cultural touchstone if the show just attempted to be funny, instead of spreading some ill-advised and probably offensive message, it could probably succeed. I sure hope so. I'm overall not confident, however, because the lows of this season were so low ("Ed's Twice Ex-Wife" might be the most overall offensive half-hours of television I've ever watched) that I just can't believe, barring a complete and utter change in writing and production staff from seasons 2 to 3, that I won't see something that bad or even worse in season 3.

All in all, this season of LMS is an interesting lesson in how not to make a season of television comedy. It tried to make a Big Point, and almost always failed, and was rarely if ever funny. Only one or two bright spots (The Christmas episode in particular) save this season from being a total dud, but even so I would never, ever recommend anyone watch this. A failure. An interesting failure, but a failure.

Season Grade: D

NieR Occomata
Jan 18, 2009

Glory to Mankind.

:siren:I WANT TO DO A THING:siren:

So I watched 301 of LMS last week, and it's...oh wow it's INCREDIBLE

It's so bad it loops around to AMAZING and I think this thread could have an awesome laugh out of doing a viewing party

Seriously it's that incredibly bad/amazing

Anyways I want to organize a viewing party for 301

My tenuous plan would be to do this on the tviv irc here on Wednesday May 28, 2014 at 5 pm PST (8 pm EST): http://chat.mibbit.com/?channel=%23satviv&server=irc.synirc.net

We'd all watch it together and livechat about it because holllllllllllllllllllllly poo poo is it SO BAD, but not in the way that season 2 episodes are bad

Anyways let me know itt if you like this idea because man oh man oh man do I want to see how goons react to this, at some point during the last eight minutes of the ep I couldn't stop laughing at it

Dolash
Oct 23, 2008

aNYWAY,
tHAT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS,
tO REPORT ON THE SUBJECT,
oF ME GETTING HURT,


I admit, I'm kind of curious, although that's happening in the middle of trivia night for me so I probably won't make it out. Looking forward to reading about it though.

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IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!

I'm down for some collective trauma. Is season 3 on netflix?

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