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Honestly, given the goats in the prep room I was expecting the Golden Fleece to be the target. I was expecting an Oceans Eleven style con heist, not a The Hobbit style burgle heist
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May 27, 2014 15:58
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Just got my copy handed to me by the UPS man. I'm peacing out from work at 2 PM.   
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May 27, 2014 16:36
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Listening to the audiobook while working today. Nearly cracked up at Marsters's reading of the various voices on the island.
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May 27, 2014 16:38
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If Murphy stays nerfed for long I'm going to be pissed. I'm already not happy that Butters, who didn't need to be a superpowered Knight, got a power up, and for it to be in the same book as Murphy getting injured, sidelined, (and knocked down to love interest) felt like a slap in the face. And I REALLY don't like Michael getting back in the fight. The dude had his happy ending... why pull him back from that? Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 17:31 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 16:58
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Mars4523 posted:If Murphy stays nerfed for long I'm going to be pissed. I'm already not happy that Butters, who didn't need to be a superpowered Knight, got a power up, and for it to be in the same book as Murphy getting injured, sidelined, (and knocked down to love interest) felt like a slap in the face. Michael is back out of the fight at the end and he was allowed to return for one final chance to show Nicky and the Nickleheads up without getting shot in the process.
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May 27, 2014 18:20
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Mars4523 posted:If Murphy stays nerfed for long I'm going to be pissed. I'm already not happy that Butters, who didn't need to be a superpowered Knight, got a power up, and for it to be in the same book as Murphy getting injured, sidelined, (and knocked down to love interest) felt like a slap in the face. the ability of an immortal to peacefully transfer their mantle to someone else and assume a mortal state seems like a very important plot point to introduce given Harry's goal. In all other cases the bearer had to die, which seems rather inconvenient
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May 27, 2014 18:25
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Still reading this (I love working from home) and oh god chapter 32. loving chapter 32 man.
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May 27, 2014 19:13
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DiverTwig posted:Still reading this (I love working from home) and oh god chapter 32. loving chapter 32 man. That's the Maggie chapter isn't it? Yep. Direct hit
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May 27, 2014 19:16
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Fried Chicken posted:the ability of an immortal to peacefully transfer their mantle to someone else and assume a mortal state seems like a very important plot point to introduce given Harry's goal. In all other cases the bearer had to die, which seems rather inconvenient I also think it's worth noting that this book established that the Winter Knight mantel is actually remarkably lovely. It doesn't actually give Harry any form of increased power aside from seemingly a protection against ice and slipping and maybe better ice magic? I get the feeling it's going to be going away fairly soon because Harry does not need it to play with the big leagues.
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May 27, 2014 19:16
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ImpAtom posted:I also think it's worth noting that this book established that the Winter Knight mantel is actually remarkably lovely. It doesn't actually give Harry any form of increased power aside from seemingly a protection against ice and slipping and maybe better ice magic? I get the feeling it's going to be going away fairly soon because Harry does not need it to play with the big leagues. yeah, I find that part really weird though. "Not feeling your limits" doesn't translate to "your spine is healed" - the book was also really clear that as soon as the mantle stopped masking physical ailments they were all still there dragging him down. Plus we've seen him draw on its abilities that go beyond that in terms of magic as well (eg in changes lea notes he is suddenly able to do ice and fire magic simultaneously, or surviving the duel spell the vamp princess landed) and things like some sort of weird ESP/spidey sense for what Summer will do in Cold Days. I get it was needed for the Tessa fight scene to work bit it doesn't jive with some of the other things. Maybe it's that it doesn't do much at the level Harry is willing to commit to it? The idea that it was just "push your limits" first popped up in Cold Days where a big deal was made of the trade off between power and obligation. Harry is fighting his obligation to Mab so he gets little power in return. It wouldn't be the first time Butcher has done the "rules of magic are much more flexible than is widely thought and a lot matters on personal decisions" over the course of several books. Originally mortals were special in their ability to choose their nature, then we got the line about Thomas being in love being mortal enough, then the faerie queens were mortals bearing mantles that manifested differently in their attitudes, and here we got a "good" skin walker and a monstrous Forest Person. Clearly choice and nature, and powers are more flexible that it was indicated earlier in the series Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 19:52 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 19:42
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Fried Chicken posted:yeah, I find that part really weird though. "Not feeling your limits" doesn't translate to "your spine is healed" - the book was also really clear that as soon as the mantle stopped masking physical ailments they were all still there dragging him down. Plus we've seen him draw on its abilities that go beyond that in terms of magic as well (eg in changes lea notes he is suddenly able to do ice and fire magic simultaneously, or surviving the duel spell the vamp princess landed) and things like some sort of weird ESP/spidey sense for what Summer will do in Cold Days. The feeling I get from it is basically a quiet retcon of its abilities to justify Dresden giving it up without significant power loss in the near future. It really doesn't mesh with everything that was described up until now. Like, the other Winter Knights have been spoken of as giant terrifying badasses and I don't buy that just being because they didn't have limits, especially since a lot of them were not magicians and thus wouldn't have Harry's super-healing powers and thus should probably be an nonfunctioning wreck within a few weeks, not a few years.
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May 27, 2014 19:44
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Over all a good but not great book. A person earlier in the thread mentioned that it felt like an earlier novel and i agree though for different reasons i think. Honestly you could have slotted this one in before changes reguarding the main plot points and i think there would have been little difference overall. I really didn't feel any "tension" so to speak out of the main plot. When the previews of the book went up i was imagining some kind of oceans 11 style book where they had to figure out how to get past a bunch of stuff to steal a macguffin, with intrigue and back stabbing and what not. I can't really say we got any of that. I really liked the crew that got put together for the heist, but we never really got to see much of the interplay between them. Overall it reminded me of proven guilty or grave peril the most. The main plot was ok to exciting at times, the side plots were OK, but most of the book seemed to be setting up something later. There was a few fist pumping moments, but compared to changes/cold days where poo poo was going DOWN, this book seemed sort of lackadaisical and left me wanting over all. A solid C+ or B- from the series. I think i'm also alittle bitter from the longer wait. The wait on ghost story made sense from how it was written, but this one seemed bog standard. Changes really spoiled me for this series i think. Many plot points coming home to roost, followed by ghost story about how hard it is for harry to "grow up" so to speak. Then cold days where "payment" for some of his and others mistakes are made. This one seemed like harry had backslid in some areas while growing in others. Spoilers below warning: I'm not gonna bother with tags cause if you are reading this you should already have the book!! I felt cheated on several parts. The parasite in harry made sense in how it was handled, but at the same time was stupid. Mab can just ORDER harry to do something, even if he doesn't like it. I she just wanted the extra leverage but man, ughhh, a poor manipulation from the master of manipulation. I am aware that there is always some sort of time limit in dresden books, but this one felt tacked on and arbitrary compared to some of the others. The winter mantel seems actively detremental to it's user at least after reading this book. The amount of damage harry takes would have shut him down any other time, but they were not even mentioned after a while. I'm assumning that there is some sort of game or plan here that is making the mantle not work correctly on harry because we know that loyd slate and the summer knight had both been around for a while with their respective mantels in summer knight. The summer knight was implied to have been at his job for a while. Neither one of them was supposed to have been a wizard of anywhere NEAR harrys power level or have his recovery abilities, so I'm confused as to how they were supposed to do their job if all the mantel does is make you perform at 100% of your peak, and ignore pain. Lastly I am upset we did not get more face time with the "crew" so to speak. Part of any good heist movie/book is getting to know the characters and watching them bounce off each other and figure out problems. The crew as put together was interesting, binder has an interesting power set and is over all sort of goofy similar to a more slimy harry. Grey and hannna were not really given enough time to make me like or dislike them, only wish we got to see/hear more. Hades also has me somewhat intruiged. A new character like vadderung? Who can tell. This book is going to live and die on what the other ones take from it. MOD EDIT: Use spoiler tags folks. Thanks. Not everyone speed-read the book already. Somebody fucked around with this message at 20:41 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 19:51
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Totally worth staying up til the wee hours of the morning to finish initial read through. So, anyone else get the potential significance of (SPOILERS FOR NEAR END OF BOOK) there being five items tied to Christ in Hades vault? The fact that 5 things are routinely used to summon something leads me to believe that the B.A.T. will be kicked off by summoning Christ himself. See also Deidre's comment about "saving the world"
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May 27, 2014 20:16
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ImpAtom posted:The feeling I get from it is basically a quiet retcon of its abilities to justify Dresden giving it up without significant power loss in the near future. It really doesn't mesh with everything that was described up until now. Yeah, the books post Changes have really felt like a whole different world building exercise, seeming much more similar to the rpg material (where things are balanced so the PC has a shot and you sometimes want to play strange race/combos) whereas before it was a lot more stringent about the relative place in the universe. I'm not sure how much of this is Jim checking the sourcebooks as a reference like he says he does and that influencing things, that this is how it always was and he is slowly revealing the world building he did as Harry is learning more which he has mentioned in interviews, and how much of it is retcon necessitated by the story he wants to tell like he has said in his "how to write" stuff. The books are still fun and I am not going to descend to the level of red shirt wow goon and preach about "canon" but it does stick out so I sit here and speculate about possible explanations
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May 27, 2014 20:24
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ImpAtom posted:The feeling I get from it is basically a quiet retcon of its abilities to justify Dresden giving it up without significant power loss in the near future. It really doesn't mesh with everything that was described up until now. Well, for most normal humans, suddenly being able to do really powerful and finely-controlled frost magic would be a major, major power boost. And they might get wizard-style healing from the mantle, too. This could be a case where a wizard getting a mantle is kinda like putting fudge topping on a fudge brownie, if that makes sense.
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May 27, 2014 20:40
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ImpAtom posted:The feeling I get from it is basically a quiet retcon of its abilities to justify Dresden giving it up without significant power loss in the near future. It really doesn't mesh with everything that was described up until now. I thought a big part of it was that Winter Knights got access to Sidhe magic. Instant, pretty powerful mojo. It's less of a power boost for Dresden because he can already use magic really well, so it just sort of flavors what he already has. I'm also a little disappointed that we didn't get to see more of depowered Uriel and what the whole deal with that was, but it's probably some set-up for future books. I was expecting it to end with Uriel dying and Michael becoming the new Uriel, but I guess that might have been a bit of a rehash after last book. Oh, yeah, and I apparently got the Kindle version of Skin Games for free? I bought it this morning and the receipt looks like this:  Anyone have any idea what that's about?
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May 27, 2014 20:42
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Liked the book, especially Hades being a chill guy, the entire conversation had the "you and I are similar, we do our duty and we have an awesome dog" vibe. Also, the moment with Sir Butters the Jewish Jedi Knight of the Cross made me laugh a lot, which I'm grateful for because my life has been so lovely lately that any moment to laugh is welcomed
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May 27, 2014 20:44
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Tulul posted:I thought a big part of it was that Winter Knights got access to Sidhe magic. Instant, pretty powerful mojo. It's less of a power boost for Dresden because he can already use magic really well, so it just sort of flavors what he already has. It's probably from the antitrust settlement that Amazon made with the DOJ a couple of months ago; basically if one had purchased kindle books in a previous time frame, one would also get credits towards future e-book purchases as part of the deal.
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May 27, 2014 20:45
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Well, for most normal humans, suddenly being able to do really powerful and finely-controlled frost magic would be a major, major power boost. And they might get wizard-style healing from the mantle, too. This could be a case where a wizard getting a mantle is kinda like putting fudge topping on a fudge brownie, if that makes sense. That would make sense and be a pretty justifiable reason for it to still be a big deal while still being portrayed as it is in the book.
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May 27, 2014 20:46
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Finished. It's not the best in the series, but it ramps up toward the end. I'm on board with the idea that it's the Spear of Destiny, since all the items seem to be related to Christ specifically and that'd leave the "dagger" the odd one out. The placard is probably the one with INRI on it. The most disappointing thing to me ties back into book 10: No discussion between Harry and Nicky about Nemesis. Nicky had talked about Nemesis as a distraction, but everything he'd said was still technically true. Enemy or not, you'd think that'd warrant a bit of a discussion.
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May 27, 2014 21:20
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That book was pretty amazing  . I like the fact that Harry pretty much completely outwitted the bad guy for once! He finally smartened up a smidgeon! The whole Knight of the Cross thing turned in a COMPLETELY unexpected and amazing direction, I literally did not predict it until the moment it landed in Butter's hand - when i saw it bounce out of Charity's hand, I was expecting it to like, bounce and hit Nicodemus in the back of the head and cause some chain reaction that saved Butters as one last final hurrah for the sword. Having Valmont helping Michael's family properly sell and invest their millions of dollars of stolen diamonds entertained me immensely for some reason. Grey was an interesting character, and I suspect we'll see him again - sure he's a potential ally of godlike power, but when everything he's dealing with is a godlike power nowadays.. I'm curious what the 'Rent' is. With the dollar bit, it seems like he requires the act of completing a job and recieving payment considerably more than the actual job itself. I almost suspect that he's trying to do some sort of bargain to become less Naagloshi, more whatever the Naagloshi were before they did the native american spirit equivalent of Falling  . Either that or it somehow holds off him turning into a bloodslavering monster, or some other unwanted burden placed upon Naagloshi, which fits more with the 'rent' aspect.
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May 27, 2014 22:40
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My biggest problem with Grey is that his voice and general tone was super goddamn Hellhound, right down to hitting on Murphy. I don't think Butcher did a good job distinguishing the character.
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May 27, 2014 22:46
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ImpAtom posted:My biggest problem with Grey is that his voice and general tone was super goddamn Hellhound, right down to hitting on Murphy. I don't think Butcher did a good job distinguishing the character. This book had no stakes. If it were "Dresden's Eleven", it'd be "Ocean's Eleven" without the cast chemistry. In these kinds of stories, plots within plots and eventual success are givens, but none of it felt organic. There were too many moving parts (and thus points of failure) in the plot and it felt pretty drat contrived. I'm still sick and tired of the extraneous male gaze (ahem Hannah). It's been 15 books and by now it feels more forced and perfunctory than it does a character quirk. Grow the gently caress up, Harry. There were bits of Harry's internal dialogue here that reminded me of the worst aspects of his character, and not in a self aware way either. And if Murphy stays gimped and/or gets demoted from active participant in the plot/struggle to preserve humanity to "Love interest" or damsel in distress I'll probably call it quits.
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May 27, 2014 23:01
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ImpAtom posted:My biggest problem with Grey is that his voice and general tone was super goddamn Hellhound, right down to hitting on Murphy. I don't think Butcher did a good job distinguishing the character. I suspect the complete lack of distinguishing traits for a shapeshifting character was deliberate. Particularly given that Butcher is really repetitive about setting up and reiterating traits for other characters.
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May 27, 2014 23:09
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Fried Chicken posted:I suspect the complete lack of distinguishing traits for a shapeshifting character was deliberate. Particularly given that Butcher is really repetitive about setting up and reiterating traits for other characters. Well, it is less that he didn't have distinguishing traits and more than his distinguising traits and even his character voice were all really reminiscent of Kincaid. This could even turn out to be more significant down the line but just from this one book he felt like Kincaid 2.0 and without further knowledge it just feels like Butcher accidentally wrote two extremely similar characters. Mars4523 posted:And if Murphy stays gimped and/or gets demoted from active participant in the plot/struggle to preserve humanity to "Love interest" or damsel in distress I'll probably call it quits. Considering how much they emphasized Love as Murphy's character trait this book and how the Sword of Love is conveniently not taken yet, Murphy's absolutely going to pick that sucker up at some point, if just as a redemption for her failure in this book. It's just potentially going to be a tedious wait until she does and probably not until the next Denarian book if the current pattern holds. It was pointed out in an interview that sword only comes down with major major poo poo is afoot so it may not even be until the ending arc, in which case I hope to god Murphy gets something to do besides be Good People between now and then. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:19 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 23:17
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Why did Nic need to kill his daughter when he had an entire cult of fanatics to sacrifice?
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May 27, 2014 23:20
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Potooweet posted:Why did Nic need to kill his daughter when he had an entire cult of fanatics to sacrifice?
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May 27, 2014 23:30
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Potooweet posted:Why did Nic need to kill his daughter when he had an entire cult of fanatics to sacrifice? Once the sacrifice was complete, the ghost of the sacrificed person still needed to throw the magic switch. So it needed to be someone who would 100% support you even after you murder them. And left them in Hades for all eternity. There was too much risk a random goon would just give Nic the spectral finger after he offed them.
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May 27, 2014 23:33
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Or just random redshirts doesn't have a soul.
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May 27, 2014 23:36
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In addition to everything else, he mentioned protecting her from The Enemy.
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May 27, 2014 23:38
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keiran_helcyan posted:Once the sacrifice was complete, the ghost of the sacrificed person still needed to throw the magic switch. So it needed to be someone who would 100% support you even after you murder them. And left them in Hades for all eternity. There was too much risk a random goon would just give Nic the spectral finger after he offed them. Plus he was using Dresden. If a random redshirt, or multiple, had tagged along Harry would have thrown down and absolutely derailed the whole thing. He's also absolutely terrified of something. He threw away a poo poo ton of assets on this mission to collect weapons to 'save the world' as Deidre put it. Considering gis later chat with her in the underworld, perhaps he knows or thinks Judgment day is coming and he's trying to get something to stop it.
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May 27, 2014 23:44
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I just got the joke in Hannah being good with fire. Her last name is Ascher and she turns things to ashes!  MOD EDIT: added spoiler tags Somebody fucked around with this message at 12:43 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 23:56
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I feel like this thread title has been used before...
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May 27, 2014 23:58
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I liked it for the most part, but; That was a lot of screen time wasted on Murphy for no real result. She got chapters, and chapters of attention and what did it come to? She gets sidelined before the real fight starts, she gets yet another insecurity to dither around with, and she maybe gets to bang Dresden off screen. In contrast, Molly had like, two scenes and showed clear growth, both for the better and worse. Trying to make Murphy a functioning character again was going to be a tall order, considering how long she's been neglected, but this book definitely fell short. It resolved none of her issues and opened no new avenues for growth. Fake edit: Also agreed that the male gaze thing is getting incredibly tiresome. Real edit: Also, also, having Hannah Ascher's villain backstory be (attempted) rape was dumb and lazy and Butcher ought to know better.
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May 27, 2014 23:59
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So.. Butters reforged the sword that was broken into a lightsaber and went Neville Longbottom on the Dark Lord? I think we're approaching nerd singularity
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May 28, 2014 00:02
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Can someone explain "Howard Delroy Oberheit"? I don't get the joke.
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May 28, 2014 00:06
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Fried Chicken posted:Can someone explain "Howard Delroy Oberheit"? I don't get the joke. I don't either. All I can think is that the HD is still his initials, and the joke lies in Oberheit. I have no idea what the joke is, though.
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May 28, 2014 00:09
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Given Butchers predilection for borrowing liberally from other mythologies, any one got a clue as to whether or not Goodman Grey has a basis in anything/anyone else? I did a quick google after I finished and found this which talks about a Goodman Grey advocating at the Salem Witch Trial for magic being intrinsically neutral, and that any evil is in the practicioner themselves. Seems relevant for a naagaloshii (who have heretofore been portrayed as evil down to the bone) trying to rise above his heritage.
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May 28, 2014 00:11
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Screen Door Slams posted:I don't either. All I can think is that the HD is still his initials, and the joke lies in Oberheit. I have no idea what the joke is, though. Oberheit = "Over Height" = "he tall" maybe?
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May 28, 2014 00:13
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Fried Chicken posted:Oberheit = "Over Height" = "he tall" maybe? Sounds reasonable. Not as good as the joke in Hannah's name, but it makes sense.
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May 28, 2014 00:15
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