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Only a week or so since a shooting at SPU and now a UW student is in jail for publicly saying quote:“everything Elliot did is perfectly justified"  quote:Raw Story noted that chalk outlines have also been spotted outside sorority houses at UW. 
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Jun 17, 2014 17:27
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SedanChair posted:Well, I'm glad you and everyone you know doesn't do that, I know plenty of people who do. Many boys are mocked or beaten for showing emotion, and they mete it out to their peers in turn. That's not true. What IS true is that boys aren't taught how to handle things like anger, frustration, loneliness, sadness, anxiety, or stress the way that girls are. Its girls who are taught to keep it under control, not boys. Boys are allowed to have temper tantrums, to cry, to show great displays of emotion. But girls are conditioned to restrain themselves at all times. I'm sorry but this meme that boys and men aren't allowed to show emotion just isn't so. Couple this with privilege and entitlement and it explains why men like Eliot Roger keep popping up.
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Jun 17, 2014 23:43
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Blue Star posted:That's not true. I-it's not true? Where are you getting this from? Why are you so comfortable saying that boys are not beaten and mocked for showing emotion?
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Jun 17, 2014 23:46
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The only emotions boys are conditioned not to display are emotions typically associated with femininity. Sadness, grief, crying, fragility, frailness; this is why sexism is bad for men. Because it defines the gender you don't want to be like as women, and punishes males for acting like them.
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Jun 18, 2014 00:21
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Yeah, I agree with people; there are plenty of social situations where being angry is considered a plus for men, or at least neutral (incidentally, fewer if you're black). I can't think of such a situation for women. But the worst part is that like the previous poster said, if you display non societally approved emotions as a man, you get called a woman. If you use them as a woman, you get called sub-human.
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Jun 18, 2014 04:17
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Blue Star posted:Boys are allowed to have temper tantrums, to cry, to show great displays of emotion. This has not been my experience.
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Jun 18, 2014 06:10
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Blind Melon posted:This has not been my experience. Situations ok to cry: Your dad died. Your kid is hurt, for badsies. You get kicked in the balls (still some laughter). Its taken me awhile to come around to understanding some second-wave feminist ideas. I've got a fine motor disability, and I remember, as a child in the early 90s, how emasculating and separating it was to ask the first time I had to ask the twins for help in second grade with tying my shoes. It wasn't anything specific in any reaction, rather, asking for help as a boy/man in America is culturally verboten, from the most immediate act to the abstract way our limited welfare syatem has been organized.
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Jun 18, 2014 06:49
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Samurai Sanders posted:Yeah, I agree with people; there are plenty of social situations where being angry is considered a plus for men, or at least neutral (incidentally, fewer if you're black). I can't think of such a situation for women. Absolutely, I didn't mean to imply that the average girl's experience isn't more terrible and alienating than the average boy's. The codes and expectations of patriarchy are a burden for everyone, but they certainly fall heaviest on girls and LGBT youth.
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Jun 18, 2014 06:56
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My Imaginary GF posted:Situations ok to cry: Your dad died. I realize this is the common wisdom, but I've never been in a situation where a guy is crying and anyone kicks him while he's down. Like, ever. Whe I have seen a guy acting "unmanly" guys either awkwardly pretend it isn't happening, give him some space, or empathise as best they can. Because it's forums, everyone right now is trying to think of a time when guys were assholes to a crying man. And I'm sure it's happened, but it's not something you see decent guys doing. If a guy's upset to the point where he's lost his composure, you don't generally see other guys getting in his face and giving him poo poo for it. I never have, anyway.
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Jun 18, 2014 11:14
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moths posted:I realize this is the common wisdom, but I've never been in a situation where a guy is crying and anyone kicks him while he's down. Like, ever. Whe I have seen a guy acting "unmanly" guys either awkwardly pretend it isn't happening, give him some space, or empathise as best they can. "Man up," "Don't be a pussy," "Cry like a girl." The existence of these and similar phrases proves more than your anecdotal evidence about never having personally observed these behaviors. Plus the way you've phrased things is oddly specific and equivocating: you're discussing specifically men who crying, but what about men who are otherwise expressing fear, sadness, or heartbreak? Then you say it does happen, but it's only done by men who aren't "decent."
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Jun 18, 2014 12:20
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moths posted:I realize this is the common wisdom, but I've never been in a situation where a guy is crying and anyone kicks him while he's down. Like, ever. Whe I have seen a guy acting "unmanly" guys either awkwardly pretend it isn't happening, give him some space, or empathise as best they can. It's something that I noticed way more as a teenager than as an adult. But basically: Sharkie posted:"Man up," "Don't be a pussy," "Cry like a girl." The existence of these and similar phrases proves more than your anecdotal evidence about never having personally observed these behaviors. See also: Cry like a bitch. Or any variation of being a bitch or any other emasculating word you can think of. Including wuss. Anger is typically the only emotional response that is heavily encouraged. Threatening responses are considered manly. How many times have you seen the cliche of the father making threats to the boy dating his daughter played for laughs? What about meeting the intimidating male family member in general? How many times is "tough love" from dad played for laughs? Our culture tends to find needles male intimidation acceptable. Being able to threaten someone is manly! If the boy was spooked then he wasn't a real man, he fails the "test".
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Jun 18, 2014 12:34
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I realize there are lovely phrases, but do adults actually use them in earnest? I feel like the "men can't be sad" meme is established in grade school and everyone just assumes it holds true into adulthood. Yeah you'd get ridiculed for expressing sorrow or grief then, but that's because children are loving underdeveloped monsters who can't empathize with other living things. Youtube is stuffed with videos of men expressing fear in pranking and haunted house videos. And are you seriously telling me you have never seen a sad man in public? It doesn't spawn a pack of bro-men telling him to man up or not be a pussy. Life is not a slim-jim commercial.
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Jun 18, 2014 12:40
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moths posted:I realize there are lovely phrases, but do adults actually use them in earnest? Yes. You claim to have never seen this so good for you I guess, but people are not just making this up for reasons. There are decades of qualitative and quantitative research to back this up if you're interested. moths posted:I feel like the "men can't be sad" meme is established in grade school and everyone just assumes it holds true into adulthood. Yeah you'd get ridiculed for expressing sorrow or grief then, So you're saying it does happen, but adults don't do it. Childhood experiences influence adult thinking and behavior. moths posted:but that's because children are loving underdeveloped monsters who can't empathize with other living things. Don't ignore the gendered component of this. Reactions to sadness, fear, pain, etc. expressed by children are handled differently based on their gender. This is a fact. I'm not sure what your point is. Are you claiming this doesn't happen, or are you just re-asserting that you haven't seen it. If it's the latter, ok, thanks for sharing your perspective. If it's the former, well, there's a lot that contradicts you.
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Jun 18, 2014 12:56
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I'm saying it doesn't happen nearly so much as common perception. Every day you can find men expressing huge ranges of emotion, unmolested by enforcers of the bro-code manly man-law. Guys do not actually live in repressed stoicism, terrified to shed a single tear for fear of being cast from Mount Olympus. Yeah sometimes media portrays things that way, but if you're taking your social cues from Roseanne reruns I don't know what to tell you.
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Jun 18, 2014 13:05
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Blue Star posted:Are there really a lot of parents forbidding their sons from crying or showing emotion? I don't think so. And what happens in childhood tends to carry over into adulthood. Men are used to their emotions being taken seriously. Anecdotal but definitely in my case. My stepmother would accuse me of crying to get out of trouble or for attention all the time. Like I'm not playing oppression Olympics here but this is definitely a Thing in the United States
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Jun 18, 2014 13:16
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moths posted:I'm saying it doesn't happen nearly so much as common perception. Every day you can find men expressing huge ranges of emotion, unmolested by enforcers of the bro-code manly man-law. Guys do not actually live in repressed stoicism, terrified to shed a single tear for fear of being cast from Mount Olympus. So instead of responding to my points you're just going to throw out even more wacky hyperbolic straw-men, ok. ToastyPotato posted:Anger is typically the only emotional response that is heavily encouraged. Threatening responses are considered manly. How many times have you seen the cliche of the father making threats to the boy dating his daughter played for laughs? What about meeting the intimidating male family member in general? How many times is "tough love" from dad played for laughs? Our culture tends to find needles male intimidation acceptable. Being able to threaten someone is manly! If the boy was spooked then he wasn't a real man, he fails the "test". Don't forget greed and lust! Which thanks to the objectification of women can get subsumed into one single ugly emotion of acquisitiveness. So when you're left with that, and anger being the only alternative, welp...
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Jun 18, 2014 13:42
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I having fun imagining that moths and Blue Star are engaging in some elaborate meta-argument where they show men how aggravating it is when people tell you the things you've experienced don't really happen.
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Jun 18, 2014 13:45
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Torka posted:I having fun imagining that moths and Blue Star are engaging in some elaborate meta-argument where they show men how aggravating it is when people tell you the things you've experienced don't really happen. That's fun, I'll think of it that way. Though I'm not a man and don't really need this lesson.
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Jun 18, 2014 13:48
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Torka posted:I having fun imagining that moths and Blue Star are engaging in some elaborate meta-argument where they show men how aggravating it is when people tell you the things you've experienced don't really happen. It's totally working, my eyes are open.
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Jun 18, 2014 13:48
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Sharkie posted:So instead of responding to my points you're just going to throw out even more wacky hyperbolic straw-men, ok. I'm actually very interested in your claim about "decades of research," if you'd care to share links.
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Jun 18, 2014 13:49
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moths posted:I'm actually very interested in your claim about "decades of research," if you'd care to share links. This article has a good rundown on how these expectations are formed. This article has a nice bibliography you'll want to familiarize yourself with. See also the research into men's health and suicide.
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Jun 18, 2014 14:09
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| # ? Apr 24, 2024 21:19 |
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Everblight posted:Only a week or so since a shooting at SPU and now a UW student is in jail for publicly saying Cool, it had a side link to artificial vaginas! The solution is coming people! This loving sucks
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Jun 18, 2014 14:28
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