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He wasn't just targeting just women women. He was targeting the males with them. It drove him apeshit to see girls being happy around other guys. Feminism isn't the fault for this, most definitely. It's the male culture on how men expect other men to be in relationships with women.
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May 27, 2014 23:01
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Slobjob Zizek posted:It's not 'patriarchy,' it's the inability to live up to impossible ideals. You never answered my questions: Sharkie posted:So are you opposed to examining the culture, whether of society in general or the specific groups he associated with, that shaped this attack? Do you feel there's no point in examining militia culture, or antisemitism? But it appears that no, you're not opposed to examining the culture that shaped this attack, you just disagree with that analysis looking into certain areas. You're more than happy to attribute aspects of our society to shaping this attack, "impossible ideals;" you just fundamentally disagree with examining the roles of men and women in society had in it. Which is kind of odd for two reasons. 1. He made his motivation, hatred of women, abundantly plain, and 2. It seems like you have some wider disagreements with or concerns about feminism that are shaping your response. edit: seriously, "vindicate feminism"? Sharkie fucked around with this message at 23:26 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 23:02
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Job Truniht posted:He wasn't just targeting just women women. He was targeting the males with them. It drove him apeshit to see girls being happy around other guys. Look at this post. Look at it. This right here is why it starts now - with this tragedy (Eliot Rodger, not the post, though it is a bit  to be honest) - this is why it's time to educate men.
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May 27, 2014 23:03
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A Winner is Jew posted:Yeah, and his crippling narcissism is the giant flashing neon sign that he was obviously mentally unstable and never got the proper help he needed. I agree that he was misogynistic, but this kid was a time bomb. There is no reason other than luck that he didn't fixate on some other external agitator and to jump on the MRA's for being some sort of breeding ground for killers seems a little opportunistic. This kid could have just as easily become some sort of tumblr weirdo.
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May 27, 2014 23:03
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Miltank posted:I agree that he was misogynistic, but this kid was a time bomb. There is no reason other than luck that he didn't fixate on some other external agitator and to jump on the MRA's for being some sort of breeding ground for killers seems a little opportunistic. This kid could have just as easily become some sort of tumblr weirdo. There's plenty of people who say basically identical things to what this kid did on MRA groups all the time. There also isn't a culture of Social Justice violence in this country. Unless you're counting the type against folks who are for it.
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May 27, 2014 23:06
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Zeitgueist posted:There's plenty of people who say basically identical things to what this kid did on MRA groups all the time. I'm with you. It's time for us to sit down and educate men.
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May 27, 2014 23:07
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Zeitgueist posted:There's plenty of people who say basically identical things to what this kid did on MRA groups all the time. Yes that's what a culture of violence is. Die cis scum. new phone who dis fucked around with this message at 23:13 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 23:09
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You guys it's not patriarchy it's just that men are making all the rules.
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May 27, 2014 23:09
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Gropiemon posted:You guys it's not patriarchy it's just that men are making all the rules. Okay, so now that you know the problem don't you think it's time we actually educate men?
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May 27, 2014 23:10
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Miltank posted:I agree that he was misogynistic, but this kid was a time bomb. There is no reason other than luck that he didn't fixate on some other external agitator and to jump on the MRA's for being some sort of breeding ground for killers seems a little opportunistic. This kid could have just as easily become some sort of tumblr weirdo. Not to goodwin this (totally going to anyway so sorry) but I'm willing to bet there's a reason why he didn't fixate on targeting jews or minorities when he exploded, and that reason is that racism and antisemitism is actively ostracized while MRA's aren't.
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May 27, 2014 23:11
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natetimm posted:Yes that's what a culture of violence is. More to the point, "man, whether entirely sane or not, gets angry at all women, takes it out on individuals," happens on a regular basis, but "gay person lashes out against all straight people" doesn't, and it's important to understand why and work against it. edit: Or, "woman shoots up a bunch of guys because she's not a size 0," which is one of the many reasons "it's just about perfectionism, gender has nothing to do with it" falls flat.
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May 27, 2014 23:12
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tbp posted:Okay, so now that you know the problem don't you think it's time we actually educate men? let us work to pass general feminist legislation like proper sex ed or reproductive rights i think those would be good stepping stones
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May 27, 2014 23:13
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Sharkie posted:You're more than happy to attribute aspects of our society to shaping this attack, "impossible ideals;" you just fundamentally disagree with examining the roles of men and women in society had in it. Which is kind of odd for two reasons. 1. He made his motivation, hatred of women, abundantly plain, and 2. It seems like you have some wider disagreements with or concerns about feminism that are shaping your response. I think you misquoted, but I think traditional feminist views are off-the-mark here. They essentially just direct Elliot Rodgers-types and equivalent women (?) to deal with the fact that no one will ever date them. This doesn't seem like a long term solution in a society that is increasingly filled with single people. Anyway, re: "alphas" and "betas," I really like this conference speech on the state of modern men: http://denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm
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May 27, 2014 23:14
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natetimm posted:Yes that's what a culture of violence is. Die cis scum. Yeah there have been a lot of cis scum killings of late.
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May 27, 2014 23:14
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Zeitgueist posted:Yeah there have been a lot of cis scum killings of late. everyone killed in this incident was cisgendered you insensitive prick
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May 27, 2014 23:15
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Slobjob Zizek posted:I think you misquoted, but I think traditional feminist views are off-the-mark here. They essentially just direct Elliot Rodgers-types and equivalent women (?) to deal with the fact that no one will ever date them. This doesn't seem like a long term solution in a society that is increasingly filled with single people. No but you see feminism will make him not unhappy about noone dating him. Instead of becoming angry (which is a socially constructed emotion based on, you guessed it, Patriarchy!) feminism will show him that its wrong to hurt other people just because he is unhappy. Thats the kind of education this society lacks.
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May 27, 2014 23:16
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natetimm posted:Yes that's what a culture of violence is. Die cis scum. Yeah man, I don't think cis people will ever be free from this reign of terror. In many ways, tumblr is worse than Adolf Hitler.
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May 27, 2014 23:18
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A Winner is Jew posted:Not to goodwin this (totally going to anyway so sorry) but I'm willing to bet there's a reason why he didn't fixate on targeting jews or minorities when he exploded, and that reason is that racism and antisemitism is actively ostracized while MRA's aren't. MRAs aren't as ostracized as nazis are I will grant you that, but they are hardly mainstream or accepted in popular culture. There is plenty of violent aggressive rhetoric in tumblr's SJW culture. It just isn't taken seriously- the same way that MRAs weren't taken seriously. Miltank fucked around with this message at 23:23 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 23:21
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Slobjob Zizek posted:I think you misquoted, but I think traditional feminist views are off-the-mark here. They essentially just direct Elliot Rodgers-types and equivalent women (?) to deal with the fact that no one will ever date them. This doesn't seem like a long term solution in a society that is increasingly filled with single people. What did I misquote [edit: found it and corrected, thanks] and what "traditional feminist views" are you talking about. Like, show me exactly what you're trying to rebut before posting a rebuttal. EasternBronze posted:No but you see feminism will make him not unhappy about noone dating him. Instead of becoming angry (which is a socially constructed emotion based on, you guessed it, Patriarchy!) feminism will show him that its wrong to hurt other people just because he is unhappy. Why is it that some of the people most vocal in their insistence that misogyny and gender roles had nothing to do with this and should be left unexplored keep tip-toing around their issues with feminism? 
Sharkie fucked around with this message at 23:27 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 23:21
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Sharkie posted:What did I misquote and what "traditional feminist views" are you talking about. Like, show me exactly what you're trying to rebut before posting a rebuttal. You quoted EasternBronze, not me. Also, threads like this are why you can't use post-structuralist arguments in a formal debate. Lol.
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May 27, 2014 23:24
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LGD posted:everyone killed in this incident was cisgendered you insensitive prick Oh drat. It has begun.
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May 27, 2014 23:25
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MOLLUSC posted:Yeah man, I don't think cis people will ever be free from this reign of terror. In many ways, tumblr is worse than Adolf Hitler. Really I'm just trying to point out that violence is pretty much endemic to all volatile views. A Tumblr idiot hasn't gone out and shot anyone yet, but that doesn't mean their incendiary and often-times dumb interpretation of social justice won't inspire it one day. It won't be their fault for talking in hyperbole and generally being shitheads, though. I feel the same way about the MRA losers. They're just a bunch of assholes who want to complain about their lot in life and the people they blame for it.
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May 27, 2014 23:25
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What was his mental illness? Did anyone diagnose him?
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May 27, 2014 23:27
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Miltank posted:MRAs aren't as ostracized as nazis are I will grant you that, but they are hardly mainstream or accepted in popular culture. There is plenty of violent aggressive rhetoric in tumblr's SJW culture. It just isn't taken seriously- the same way that MRAs weren't taken seriously. I'm fine with lumping tumblr's SJW culture with MRA's, and for that matter any other "activist culture" that's cool using violent rhetoric.
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May 27, 2014 23:27
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On the other hand one shouldn't equivocate between something associated with multiple mass murders and countless acts of violence and something that, hypothetically, one day may be. Case in point, the Black Panthers used violent rhetoric but they were never the threat to life that the Klan was because of societal factors.
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May 27, 2014 23:30
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A Winner is Jew posted:I'm fine with lumping tumblr's SJW culture with MRA's, and for that matter any other "activist culture" that's cool using violent rhetoric. I dunno I'm pretty cool with threatening the rich with violence if our form of lovely capitalism continues.
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May 27, 2014 23:32
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twodot posted:No, because I know the criteria that SPLC would use to define racist. But I have no clue what the set of beliefs is being used to define a MRA. The person I quoted thinks it's important that people realize Mens' Rights Activists is a hate group, their definition of MRA obviously isn't "someone who hates women", because then the fact that they are a hate group is part of their definition. If their definition is "someone who wants to protect the rights of men", then defining the entire group as a hate group is going to be difficult. If their definition is /r/mensrights, then absolutely I agree, but why didn't they just say /r/mensrights? They listed a whole bunch of sites that collect under the "manospere" umbrella. The biggest one, and the face of the MRM, is A Voice For Men. here's a link to the splc article again
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May 27, 2014 23:33
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Excuse me but the rich, like the Rodger's, existing is really good because they'll be able to pay every cent owed after the lawsuits to the grieving families. 
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May 27, 2014 23:35
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Slobjob Zizek posted:You quoted EasternBronze, not me. I'm still not sure what you meant by "traditional feminist views" in this quote: Slobjob Zizek posted:I think you misquoted, but I think traditional feminist views are off-the-mark here. They essentially just direct Elliot Rodgers-types and equivalent women (?) to deal with the fact that no one will ever date them. This doesn't seem like a long term solution in a society that is increasingly filled with single people.
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May 27, 2014 23:35
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The difference between people using violent rethoric about minorities and people using voilent rethoric about the majority should be pretty self-evident, but for those not in the loop, when someone uses violent rethoric against the majority on a level where this enters the public consciousness the state tends to send armed men to kill or apprehend whoever used the violent rethoric in question. This can be contrasted with general apathy and victim blaming when the opposite happens, except when the person using violent rethoric against a minority is especially unsubtle about it.
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May 27, 2014 23:36
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Sharkie posted:On the other hand one shouldn't equivocate between something associated with multiple mass murders and countless acts of violence and something that, hypothetically, one day may be. Case in point, the Black Panthers used violent rhetoric but they were never the threat to life that the Klan was because of societal factors. Yeah, I should have mentioned something about societal factors when talking about condemning advocacy groups that advocate violence. I mean it's one thing to talk about inflicting violence on people/groups that are actively oppressing you vs. advocating violence against people/groups that despite what you think aren't actively oppressing you. natetimm posted:I dunno I'm pretty cool with threatening the rich with violence if our form of lovely capitalism continues. Pretty much yeah.
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May 27, 2014 23:37
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Regarding his diagnosis: quote:Smith, the former Independence High School principal, first came into contact with Rodger when she worked as a Los Angeles Unified School District behavioral specialist and Rodger was attending Taft High School in Woodland Hills. Smith helped Rodger — who was identified as a child with Asperger’s syndrome and who received support in the school district for it — get into a smaller school after an incident in which he suddenly became “socially frozen” in the hallway shortly after starting at the charter school in Woodland Hills, she said. http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20140525/santa-barbara-shooting-elliot-rodgers-manifesto-reveals-a-long-struggle-to-fit-in
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May 27, 2014 23:37
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natetimm posted:I dunno I'm pretty cool with threatening the rich with violence if our form of lovely capitalism continues. Except those who intact violence rarely are successful in directing it at the objects of their rage. A SJW might attack a country club for instance but the people who would inevitably be killed the wait staff and the caddies. Remember that Elliot killed more men than women.
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May 27, 2014 23:37
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Job Truniht posted:Toxic masculinity. Men who do not succeed and outperform everyone in every way while living up to basic social standards are considered the "inferior ones". Not necessarily toxic masculinity. It's a sign of an ill society: quote:After day 600, the male mice just stopped defending their territory, listless mice congregated in the centres of the Universe. These gangs would burst into pointless and sporadic violence. Females stopped reproducing and even started attacking their own young. Mortality rose phenomenally. Roaming mice either attacked or attempted to mount others, irrespective of relation or gender, cannibalism and other acts of depravity consumed them. These were the feral ones. Then there were the ‘beautiful ones.’ http://www.mostlyodd.com/death-by-utopia/ quote:The conclusions drawn from this experiment were that when all available space is taken and all social roles filled, competition and the stresses experienced by the individuals will result in a total breakdown in complex social behaviors, ultimately resulting in the demise of the population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun quote:Controversy exists over the implications of the experiment. Psychologist Jonathan Freedman's experiment recruited high school and university students to carry out a series of experiments that measured the effects of density on behavior. He measured their stress, discomfort, aggression, competitiveness, and general unpleasantness. He declared to have found no appreciative negative effects in 1975. Researchers argued that "Calhoun’s work was not simply about density in a physical sense, as number of individuals-per-square-unit-area, but was about degrees of social interaction."[12] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink While the world isn't Universe #, we do see these behaviors taken up by individuals in our societies, American or not. Feeling marginalized, either by their family situations (I firmly believe that his father's directorial profession led to some distance between them) or non-familial social interactions will lead to excessive pruning coupled with social isolationism. These lead to warped thinking and (often) violence against the self and others.
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May 27, 2014 23:37
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Nonsense posted:Excuse me but the rich, like the Rodger's, existing is really good because they'll be able to pay every cent owed after the lawsuits to the grieving families. I think that it'll be difficult getting money out of his parents because they actually called the cops on him beforehand. If the cops had simply gone inside there's a good chance things could have gone a lot different. You'll have a tough time proving their negligence.
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May 27, 2014 23:39
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Miltank posted:Remember that Elliot killed more men than women. I remember how that doesn't loving matter at goddman all because his intent was to literally massacre a sorority.
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May 27, 2014 23:40
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Cerebral Bore posted:The difference between people using violent rethoric about minorities and people using voilent rethoric about the majority should be pretty self-evident, but for those not in the loop, when someone uses violent rethoric against the majority on a level where this enters the public consciousness the state tends to send armed men to kill or apprehend whoever used the violent rethoric in question. This can be contrasted with general apathy and victim blaming when the opposite happens, except when the person using violent rethoric against a minority is especially unsubtle about it. Bingo. The difference between this recent event and a hypothetical "SJW killing" is that Elliott Rodger's violence was an expression of a common entitled and sometimes violent mindset that permeates our culture, not just the specific scapegoat of MRAs.
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May 27, 2014 23:40
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A Winner is Jew posted:Not to godwin this (totally going to anyway so sorry) Is it really fair to call hitler antisemitic? remember, he killed far more russians than jews.
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May 27, 2014 23:40
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natetimm posted:I think that it'll be difficult getting money out of his parents because they actually called the cops on him beforehand. If the cops had simply gone inside there's a good chance things could have gone a lot different. You'll have a tough time proving their negligence. I'd just like to say that Elliot's own manifesto admits as much. Like if they were to enter his apartment/bedroom they would have seen at least one weapon laying out in the open, and IIRC he was up to 2 weapons and plenty of ammunition when the cops paid him a visit.
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May 27, 2014 23:41
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SelfOM posted:Regarding his diagnosis: That is a neurological condition. The distinction is relevant.
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May 27, 2014 23:41
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