|
So Barack Obama has given his thoughts on the independence referendum. Most outlets are reporting this as a backing for the No campaign, but being that the British media is biased as all gently caress, I don't think his wording suggests that Scotland shouldn't be independent like the media claims. http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/278039-president-barack-obama-wades-into-scottish-independence-referendum/ (If there is more detail of the quote in another article this leaves out, please correct me.) quote:"There is a referendum process in place and it is up to the people of Scotland," he told reporters. Seems a reasonable thing to say. The UK as an ally has worked out pretty well for the US and it would be in the USs interests to keep a rump UK as a not totally ineffective ally, though it sure would be nice if Scotland had the choice to not follow America into another one of it's wars. Oh and Eck's response to Obama? quote:Yes We Can GeeCee fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Jun 5, 2014 |
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 21:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 01:42 |
|
|
I was really impressed with Salmond's answer to that immigration question in the 5 Million Questions interview, can't imagine any other politician in the UK saying such a thing and still being in a job. Also 
keep punching joe fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jun 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 21:36
|
|
|
Aliginge posted:So Barack Obama has given his thoughts on the independence referendum. Most outlets are reporting this as a backing for the No campaign, but being that the British media is biased as all gently caress, I don't think his wording suggests that Scotland shouldn't be independent like the media claims. Good spot! Aside from the bit where he explicitly states that he wants his ally to remain united, he never actually says that he thinks the union should continue.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 21:49
|
|
|
Does this mean that if we vote Yes Obama will gently caress us all up with drone strikes? We do have oil 
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 21:51
|
|
|
LemonDrizzle posted:Good spot! Aside from the bit where he explicitly states that he wants his ally to remain united, he never actually says that he thinks the union should continue. I stand corrected and now I feel like a dumb. Pretty crucial word to miss. It's been a long day. :/ GeeCee fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Jun 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 22:24
|
|
|
Nice that he took time out of his busy scheduled of bombing children to demand that Scotland stay with England.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 23:28
|
|
|
Seems a bit strange when America itself wasn't exactly pro-union under British rule, but I guess it's a holdover from the Blair-Bush era?
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 23:51
|
|
|
Well given that America is a country currently cosying up to Sisi in Egypt on the grounds of 'stability' it isn't surprising that No is the US view. A new state means a whole new set of phones to tap.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 23:56
|
|
|
Seems more like President Obama sees a United Kingdom as a stronger ally than an England and possibly Scotland. One voice in NATO would better than a possibly more divisive two, and all that. But at the same time Obama says its up to the people to decide. Nothing cloak-and-daggers in his comments there.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 00:02
|
|
|
This might be a silly question, but are there gonna be people talking about changing the UK's flag if Scotland becomes independent? I mean, it's been the same for over 200 years but it seems kinda weird incorporating a the flag of a country that's no longer part of the union. This is less silly but still not directly related to Scotland, but what are the odds that if it becomes independent it'll encourage movements in other parts of the UK? Like, will this have any effect on movements in Wales or Northern Ireland?
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 00:05
|
|
|
made of bees posted:This is less silly but still not directly related to Scotland, but what are the odds that if it becomes independent it'll encourage movements in other parts of the UK? Like, will this have any effect on movements in Wales or Northern Ireland? Wales, perhaps, as it's already got an established support for Plaid Cymru. More likely, there'll be a rise in support for federalisation throughout the UK by groups akin to the one which brought the North East(?) of England's devolution referendum.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 00:12
|
|
|
I suspect there will be moves for greater autonomy in Northern Ireland, though not necessarily a unification with Eire. It could conceivably lead to a demand for federalisation across England & Wales. Maybe England will just descend into chaotic tyranny like Children of Men. Who knows really, it's all up in the air.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 00:15
|
|
|
Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Seems more like President Obama sees a United Kingdom as a stronger ally than an England and possibly Scotland. I don't think it's seeing it that way, I think that's just a given unless an independent Scotland still plans to be in some kind of military confederation with the rest of Britain. Britain is our closest ally in terms of being likely to follow us into a war, we need their military to be as large as possible for the next time we want to invade Iraq and Scotland becoming independent would interfere with that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 00:29
|
|
|
made of bees posted:This might be a silly question, but are there gonna be people talking about changing the UK's flag if Scotland becomes independent? I mean, it's been the same for over 200 years but it seems kinda weird incorporating a the flag of a country that's no longer part of the union. I think it would stay the same, at least for a while. Various countries in the world still have the British flag incorporated in their own despite being independent, so I don't see why the UK couldn't retain the blue bit even after gaining independence from Scotland. Of course, this is all looking increasingly academic.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 08:15
|
|
|
made of bees posted:This might be a silly question, but are there gonna be people talking about changing the UK's flag if Scotland becomes independent? I mean, it's been the same for over 200 years but it seems kinda weird incorporating a the flag of a country that's no longer part of the union. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 09:25
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:We had some discussion about this in the last thread, but people seem very opposed to the idea of putting Wales on the flag. I have my doubts it would be anymore popular among the general public, plus the current flag is such an iconic part of the UK "brand". But that fourth flag is totally baller, we should change our flag to that whatever the result of the referendum.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 11:22
|
|
|
As an ignorant American, what's wrong with Wales?
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 12:49
|
|
|
Pope Guilty posted:As an ignorant American, what's wrong with Wales? Wrong in what sense? That it isn't on the flag? I don't think it's that anyone has anything in particular against Wales, just most would rather it was left as it is. As for why it wasn't included in the first place, then you could ask the same about Cornwall or Northumberland or any other historic kingdom that once formed a part of the country that's now the UK.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 12:53
|
|
|
Pope Guilty posted:As an ignorant American, what's wrong with Wales? The Union Flag* is made up of the flags of Ireland (which bears the cross of St Patrick), Scotland (St Andrew) and England (St George). These were kind of the royal standards of each country so were more representative of the three Kingdoms as the notion of a nation-state was still a few centuries off when those flags were developed. The crowns of England and Scotland formed a union first which gave us the United Kingdom of Great Britain**. Then that crown formed a union with the crown of Ireland which gave us the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland. Ireland split from the UK in the early 20th century but crucially became a republic, meaning the Kingdom of Ireland lives on in Northern Ireland. This is why the cross of St Patrick is still on it, despite the fact Northern Ireland tends to use the flag of Ulster instead when they do flag related things. The reason Wales isn't represented (St David) is because they were annexed by the English in the 15th century, rather than forming an equal union. This is crucial up to this day as Scotland and Northern Ireland have seperate systems in a lot of things like law and education than the English use. Infact when laws are passed by the British government they may not be applicable to Scotland and Northern Ireland (whether due to devolution or the law just not being compatible, i.e. because one uses common law and one civil law) so you will often see news stories saying "Westminister passes law x, to take effect in England & Wales". So really we have Scotland/Northern Ireland/England & Wales in many things, but Wales has devolution (not to the extent in Scotland but more efficient than in Northern Ireland!) which muddies the waters even more. Wales has two flags, the one with the dragon (adopted in the 1950s) and the far earlier St Davids Cross, a yellow cross on a black background. It's not a true Patron Saint flag (unlike those of Patrick, Andrew and George's) as the style was only meant to be allocated to saints who were martyred, whereas I believe David died of old age. So there is objection to incorporating the Welsh St Davids flag due to history, religion, politics, it would make the Union flag look ugly and the fact that the dragon one is well loving cool and everyone should totally use that for everything. The dragon flag is controversial too (if you're a major loving flag nerd of course) because it was also used by English and Scottish kings, and of course the modern inception has only been used for 60 years or so. The Christian lobby hate that one too and they are slightly more powerful in Wales than in England & Scotland, enough to be taken seriously at least. Finally there isn't anywhere near the level of nationalism in Wales as there is in Scotland and Northern Ireland and when it is expressed it's usually through culture and language than through flag waving. A lot of Welsh people are actually quite proud that they're not represented on the Union Flag, giving them a bit more identity and uniqueness as well as the opportunity to have their very own motherfucking dragon flag. Bet you're glad you asked  * The Union Flag is often referred to as the Union Jack. It was commonly assumed that it could only be a Jack if flown from a ship although this has been debunked. Interestingly it is actually a criminal offence to fly the flag from a ship: navy ships fly a white ensign (the English flag with the Union flag in the top left corner), merchant/civilian ships fly the red ensign (same, but the white bit is red) whilst non-navy military (army ships) and government ships (customs etc) fly the blue ensign (guess what colour that is!). ** The Great Britain refers to the island England, Wales and Scotland are on; contrary to popular (American) opinion it's got nothing to do with Britain calling itself "Great". When the Normans invaded and took over in 1066 they all spoke Norman French and some of them remarked that the south of the country looked very much like Brittany, but was obviously much larger. Great Britain is an anglicisation of the name they gave it, Grande Bretagne, or literally "Large Brittany". The more you know! edit: Technically I think Great Britain refers to the island politically and the geographical term is Albion. Jesus Christ our country is confusing. duckmaster fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Jun 6, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 14:01
|
|
|
duckmaster posted:The Union Flag* is made up of the flags of Ireland (which bears the cross of St Patrick), Scotland (St Andrew) and England (St George). These were kind of the royal standards of each country so were more representative of the three Kingdoms as the notion of a nation-state was still a few centuries off when those flags were developed. Maybe I'm missing something, but didn't Scotland already have a royal standard separate from the saltire? quote:The crowns of England and Scotland formed a union first which gave us the United Kingdom of Great Britain**. Didn't the union of crowns predate the actual formation of the Kingdom of Great Britain by about 100 years? quote:Then that crown formed a union with the crown of Ireland which gave us the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland. Ireland split from the UK in the early 20th century but crucially became a republic, meaning the Kingdom of Ireland lives on in Northern Ireland. This is why the cross of St Patrick is still on it, despite the fact Northern Ireland tends to use the flag of Ulster instead when they do flag related things. And didn't Ireland keep the monarchy until like 1948?
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 15:07
|
|
|
duckmaster posted:Bet you're glad you asked That was awesomely informative, so yes!
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 15:14
|
|
|
Kaislioc posted:Maybe I'm missing something, but didn't Scotland already have a royal standard separate from the saltire? This is what's known as the 'Lion Rampant'. As you note, this is a royal standard and officially represents the King/Queen of Scots, not Scotland itself (although you often see it at international football matches). I actually prefer it to the Saltire which is another bog-standard cross flag that Europe has plenty of already. The UK royal standard is a merger of English, Irish and Scottish royal standards:  Once again no Wales but on the plus side two Englands? Apparently it's two Scotlands north of the border but I've never actually seen this flag flown anywhere. (The harp refers to the Kingdom of Ireland, not NI. Not sure why that hasn't been quietly dropped)
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 15:16
|
|
|
Obliterati posted:(The harp refers to the Kingdom of Ireland, not NI. Not sure why that hasn't been quietly dropped)
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 15:28
|
|
|
Kaislioc posted:Maybe I'm missing something, but didn't Scotland already have a royal standard separate from the saltire? 1: Yeah, he's a bit off in calling the saltire a royal standard. The lion rampart (that you linked) is Scotland's royal standard, in the same way the three lions and not the flag of St George is the royal standard of England. The UK royal standard is the one you more commonly see in England, which combines the standards of England, Scotland, and Ireland. 2. The union of crowns came first (in 1603) but wasn't really a political union in any real sense. It was two seperate kingdoms who just happened to have the same king. Obviously this changed the relationship between the two a hell of a lot, but they remained seperate in every other sense. This was the case until the acts of union in 1707 which dissolved the Scottish parliament, send a few of its members to Westminster, and officially merged the two kingdoms into one (the UK). It's a little more complicated than that though, because the royal standard, being based around the cirumstances of the king rather than the kingdom, did change after 1603 rather than 1707. So monarchs during the 17th century did use a royal standard that we would associate with the UK, even though the UK didn't exist (as they were kings of both kingdoms). The flags of the respective kingdoms however didn't change until 1707, as they were associated not with the king but with the kingdom. I believe there was some effort to force through unified flages by some of the Stuarts before this, but there was so much resistence to it it didn't really go anywhere.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 15:29
|
|
|
They should scrap the Union Jack just because the off-center St. Patrick's cross is dumb,quote:I actually prefer it to the Saltire which is another bog-standard cross flag that Europe has plenty of already. What other country has it except for Jamaica?
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 16:16
|
|
|
every Scandinavian nation and then some?
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 16:18
|
|
|
ronya posted:every Scandinavian nation and then some?
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 16:22
|
|
|
Broniki posted:What other country has it except for Jamaica? I just mean crosses in general, so Scandanavia and all the UK nations excepting the Manx are on that list as well as Jamaica. It is a stupid thing to care about, I know.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 16:24
|
|
|
Obliterati posted:I just mean crosses in general, so Scandanavia and all the UK nations excepting the Manx are on that list as well as Jamaica. It is a stupid thing to care about, I know. I have the same feelings towards tricolouré style flags. There should be a bit more novelty (like Nepal, home of the only non rectangular flag in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepal)
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 16:27
|
|
|
The Swiss flag isn't a rectangle either, it's a square. Can we stop talking about flags now?
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 16:31
|
|
|
Coohoolin posted:The Swiss flag isn't a rectangle either, it's a square. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 16:33
|
|
|
Skeleton Jelly posted:Squares are rectangles too. This. And no, flags are great. (I have no idea why I find them really interesting but I do)
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 16:35
|
|
|
Better flagchat than pollchat. Tricolours would be nice if they didn't go for white, red, and blue so often. Come on, man. Look at India, forging new paths. There are other colours! Where's the purple and pink on the world stage, I ask you.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 16:36
|
|
|
Yeah screw tricolours. Here is the best flag: Piles of stuff going on here and it is non-symmetrical ergo best flag. Pity it's Tibet's.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 16:42
|
|
|
In actual non flag news, the first actual honest to god Labour MP has broken ranks and is now backing Yes.quote:A Labour MP has said he would vote for Scottish independence if he was able to do so. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27737476
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 17:16
|
|
|
Ha, LEGO asked the UK Government to take down the pictures from their daft buzzfeed article; http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/06/lego-asks-government-remove-scottish-independence-images
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 19:29
|
|
|
I like how Scottish Labour are keen to namedrop Obama in their soundbite for no apparent reason. It might be relevant how Mudie isn't standing next election, and so doesn't have to care about being deselected for going against the party line so much. Next week he'll get drunk in the back row of the Commons and set a pig free in a corridor. Also possibly being an MP in England means he hasn't contracted the same tribal hatred of the SNP and so also their flagship policy as his colleagues north of the border, though that could be going a bit far with the armchair psychoanalysis.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 19:32
|
|
|
Screw all this politician crap, the group that claims they are the most successful* football club in Scottish history just released their new shirt, and well see for yourself: (Yup, that's a Union flag print on it.) *The current club calling themselves "Rangers" have only appeared in one cup final, namely this year's Ramsdens Cup--which they lost
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 06:50
|
|
|
Rangers are sponsored by an online casino now? Priceless.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 08:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 01:42 |
|
|
Troy Queef posted:(Yup, that's a Union flag print on it.) Is that bad ?
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 10:08
|
|