|
MickeyFinn posted:It used to be that housing rose something like 1% a year. So, if wages kept up with a few percent or more inflation then housing costs increasing weren't really a big deal. However, for the last 30 years (or more) wages have been stagnant and housing has been looked at as a way to increase income for the middle class, just like credit cards. Along with the financialization of housing (buying up housing and then renting it), this means that housing is now an income stream for current owners. You are right that it is insanely short sighted, but you have to keep dancing even though the music has stopped if you want to buy a house. home ownership is a investment
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 22:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 22:28 |
|
|
enraged_camel posted:As a millennial, my reason for not buying a house is simply that I find it dumb to tie myself down to one geographic area. I really enjoy the freedom of being able to move where jobs and opportunities are. This. I remember reading an article on The Atlantic that wondered why millennials are so "cheap" and unwilling to buy houses. It's as dumb as it sounds: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/09/the-cheapest-generation/309060/ Anyway, anchoring yourself down somewhere in the suburbs is my idea of Hell. Maybe that's my self-righteous way of convincing myself that I have a choice over it, but the economy is definitely making millennials more of a nomad-like generation. Bouncing around to your parents, shacking up with friends or roommates. Etc. An interesting thing happens when millennials like me realize they can't buy a house or have kids any time soon: there's way more awesome poo poo to do without those things anyway. Life isn't over. I'm not living less of a life than prior generations. Let it be different and interesting.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 22:28
|
|
|
Here is a quote that is literally on the Department of Housing and Urban Development's website about affordable housing:quote:An estimated 12 million renter and homeowner households now pay more than 50 percent of their annual incomes for housing. A family with one full-time worker earning the minimum wage cannot afford the local fair-market rent for a two-bedroom apartment anywhere in the United States. Bolding mine obviously, and lol. Anecdotally, a few years ago I lived in a lovely roach trap one bedroom apartment in central Houston and paid $670/month. I have since seen the place advertised on Craigslist for $900. Judging from the pictures it has not been renovated, upgraded, or improved in any way.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 22:35
|
|
|
etalian posted:home ownership is a investment This is what middle class people actually believe.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 22:36
|
|
|
enbot posted:This is what middle class people actually believe. My folks bought a house 30 years ago for $35,000 - they finish mortgage payments on it this year. It's now worth close to $90,000, but after replacing the roof twice, getting new siding, paying interest on the mortgage, furnishing the house, paying taxes, and maintaining the house, they've probably drained $500,000 into it. And when they sell they *might* get 80% of what it's worth. So yeah, gently caress buying houses.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 22:46
|
|
|
EugeneJ posted:My folks bought a house 30 years ago for $35,000 - they finish mortgage payments on it this year. Houses can have a lot of unforeseen expenses, but this seems a bit extreme...
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 23:01
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:Houses can have a lot of unforeseen expenses, but this seems a bit extreme... Even if that was the norm, $500k over 30 years isn't that terrible. It works out to about $1400/month in rent. Depending on the area that's not that bad for a family apartment. Basically what I'm saying is that housing isn't an investment, you just pay your rent to slightly different people.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 23:09
|
|
|
Telesphorus posted:This. Yeah not to mention the whole unpredictable nature of employment means people really no longer stick with the same company for life like in the old days and there's no pension plan either. Also the shift towards more urban areas means it's unlikely to own a place given how big metropolitan areas with a good job market are really expensive now on the flip side. etalian fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jun 7, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 23:12
|
|
|
etalian posted:it's basic math things like the homeowner tax deduction cost much more for higher bracket earners. Yeah no kidding, but the graph does a good job at putting into perspective where housing support, both indirect and direct, is in fact going in this country.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 23:15
|
|
|
Amused to Death posted:Yeah no kidding, but the graph does a good job at putting into perspective where housing support, both indirect and direct, is in fact going in this country. yeah basically a subsidy for people who already have piles of money and often do other clever tricks like the equivalent property swap to avoid even more taxes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 23:16
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:Houses can have a lot of unforeseen expenses, but this seems a bit extreme... I forgot to mention the driveway replacement, the insulation, the basement foundation cracking and needing repair, the plumbing being antiquated and backing up every few months, the fence replacement, and probably more things I haven't thought of.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 23:20
|
|
|
etalian posted:it's basic math things like the homeowner tax deduction cost much more for higher bracket earners.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 23:30
|
|
|
Buying a house just sounds like a really expensive way to pick out a place in the suburbs to inevitably kill myself in. Fortunately there is no way with student loans, bad credit (thanks college credit cards!), and low pay making it next to impossible to save unless I live off ramen three times a day that will ever happen so I'll just stick with my overpriced studio in the city with my ten minute commute to work.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 23:46
|
|
|
Normally, housing isn't an investment unless you are renting a home out. It's only during the recent bubble that people saw real capital appreciation in housing.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 23:49
|
|
|
enbot posted:This is what middle class people actually believe. Houses are a consumer item. A durable one with some resale value, but a consumer item nonetheless. Newer houses are better than older houses. They depreciate (though the land they're on might appreciate). They have maintenance costs. All of these things make them bad investments, unless you believe there will be a perpetual housing bubble. Betting on such a thing, as powerful as the Realtor lobby is, might not be too wise into the distant future. There's a very good chance our policy will eventually reflect the reality of the upcoming generations.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2014 23:49
|
|
|
Wondering what this thread thinks of leasing cars vs. buying cars, since I'm happy leasing and the business forum regularly says I'm a retard and should buy a clunker instead. Same principal of wanting to avoid a mortgage by renting - no repairs, no ridiculous interest rate, no long-term commitment
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 00:04
|
|
|
Thanks for the excellent OP.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 00:05
|
|
|
ShadowHawk posted:One of the other things Realtor propaganda helps propagate is this very myth that "your house is the best investment you can make". It's complete hogwash and obviously unsustainable long term, but nevertheless an entire generation of people forsook things like retirement savings in favor of borrowing more money to buy an even bigger house. And to this day our policy continues to encourage this. Robert Shiller had a neat interview here: http://www.businessweek.com/videos/2013-02-06/shiller-sees-no-major-rally-in-u-dot-s-dot-housing-market He basically did research into the past and found that the real value of housing has decreased over time due to things such as greatly reduced construction costs.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 00:09
|
|
|
ShadowHawk posted:Newer houses are better than older houses. This is one thing I'm trying to figure out. I live in Phoenix and it's ground zero for the real estate bubble. My understanding is that because of the boom, there's been a real decrease in the quality of construction and the quality of inspection. Basically, imagine an entire city of Groverhouses. I'm sure there are lovely old houses and wonderful new homes, but I'd have to be on crack to make a $300,000 wager in this market. loving lazy millennials.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 00:12
|
|
|
Yeah I have also been told that the quality of a lot of new home builds is loving awful and they will be crumbling expensive wrecks in like fifteen years. Is there a place that this has actually been reported on? I have been thinking about buying a house since rent is expensive and I can afford it, but I don't want to get a mortgage on some lovely groverhouse that's going to fall on me the next time a tropical storm comes to Texas.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 00:19
|
|
|
Swan Oat posted:Yeah I have also been told that the quality of a lot of new home builds is loving awful and they will be crumbling expensive wrecks in like fifteen years. Is there a place that this has actually been reported on? I have been thinking about buying a house since rent is expensive and I can afford it, but I don't want to get a mortgage on some lovely groverhouse that's going to fall on me the next time a tropical storm comes to Texas. That's usually what house inspections are for. If it was built before about 2000 or so it's probably not that terrible though (or at least the flaws would be very obvious by now).
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 00:22
|
|
|
On the flip side the lack of interest in single family home ownership is leading to more apartment construction: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304020104579429280698777544 During the housing bubble it was the opposite with a majority of construction being focused on single family houses or condos. 
etalian fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jun 8, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 00:23
|
|
|
Construction's hilariously sometimes. The doors on cabinets will be solid wood while the trim around it will be particle board, for example. Or on cheap molding it's actually just a giant rear end sticker/veneer on particle board to give the illusion of solid wood. Not sure on the lifetime of that particular type of wood though. Probably not long since it's less durable than regular ol' wood.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 00:26
|
|
|
Amused to Death posted:Speaking of housing support, true to our nature, we spend more subsidizing the homes of the top 5%-10% of income earners than we do on public housing and private ownership by low/middle class people combined. Popular Thug Drink posted:I want to add to this Crabgrass Frontier by Ken Jackson. I find him more approachable than Jacobs and while she writes about current principles of ideal urbanism, Jackson writes the only book you need to read about 20th century sprawl and why American cities are the way they are. Added into the OP, thanks. Dr. Arbitrary posted:This is one thing I'm trying to figure out. I live in Phoenix and it's ground zero for the real estate bubble. First, the older houses that you find on the market are pretty much by definition only the best of their time: all the lovely ones already fell apart and were demolished. The point mainly is though that trends change and change a bunch so unless you've been pouring money into your house continually or luck out and it is trendy again it no longer will fit with modern market demands with out a bunch of very expensive remodeling. Try a 1980s non-open layout house or a 1970s ranch house with that pea-green color everywhere will go at a substantially lower price than new construction of the same square footage. However mid-century modern seems to be back in a big way now so 1950s houses seem to be enjoying a price bump they otherwise wouldn't get (although every one I see go on the market has either already been converted to an open layout or renovations start very soon after closing. The confusing thing is that housing is most often a mix of a depreciating good (the house) on top of a commodity(the land, which may go up or down in value). Swan Oat posted:Yeah I have also been told that the quality of a lot of new home builds is loving awful and they will be crumbling expensive wrecks in like fifteen years. Is there a place that this has actually been reported on? I have been thinking about buying a house since rent is expensive and I can afford it, but I don't want to get a mortgage on some lovely groverhouse that's going to fall on me the next time a tropical storm comes to Texas. Well there was the fun thing with Chinese sourced drywall which would outgas and completely destroy copper electrical wiring and HVAC systems. Shifty Pony fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Jun 8, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 00:33
|
|
|
etalian posted:On the flip side the lack of interest in single family home ownership is leading to more apartment construction: There's an interesting parallel for where I am right now. Basically the college I'm at is at a land grant school in Texas, so there's always been a fair amount of land to build on. As a result, a large part of the student housing has essentially just been converted single family homes that you can rent out for ~$1300/month plus utilities (total, so about $325/month each). Recently however, the land has been running out for "reasonably distanced" properties (that is, ones that are less than a 10 mile commute). Because of pressure from homebuilders or probably some other idiotic reason, the university decided to increase the total size of the university by 25%, ignoring natural growth (engineers are ~25% of the college right now and are about 12,000 strong as of this time of writing). Because of this policy, everyone and their mother is buying up land to convert to apartment complexes. The majority of them so far has been relatively small complexes but I've literally seen a skyline develop in about a year where before there were no buildings off campus higher than about 3 stories. It's an impressive endeavor that's bound to go down in flames but on the plus side there's going to be a lot of cheap housing in about 20 years here.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 00:48
|
|
|
I'm not sure if there's any truth at all to older houses being better than newer houses. Newer homes are better insulated, new Windows are more efficient. Materials and manufacturing processes have certainly gotten better. Construction products that are well built and make building quicker exist that weren't around 20 years ago. Don't think that compressed fiber board cupboards and cabinets are anything new either. I did some rehab work on the bottom of done 37 year old bathroom cabinets and had to replace pieces and they were made out of compressed fiber board. pacerhimself fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jun 8, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 00:53
|
|
|
Yeah stuff has been around for 50-60 years. Not necessarily bad or anything unless the piece gets a lot of action. It's just interesting where it gets used.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 01:14
|
|
|
Telesphorus posted:Anyway, anchoring yourself down somewhere in the suburbs is my idea of Hell. Maybe that's my self-righteous way of convincing myself that I have a choice over it, but the economy is definitely making millennials more of a nomad-like generation. Bouncing around to your parents, shacking up with friends or roommates. Etc. I went way farther than the suburbs when I left Philly last year though, to a rural part of NC near where I lived after high school and college. I now have 1.6 acres of woods, I have to sell part of my land to lose my privacy, and my monthly payment isn't going up 5% every year. Doesn't matter if I buy a dog, get married, have a kid, have an accident and end up handicapped - I can live in my 1500sqft 3/2 single-story house for $1005/mo for the next 30yrs if I want to (obviously property taxes and insurance might increase, but not that much). I can run all the cable I want through the walls, I can switch to a gas range, I can switch to a tankless water heater - whatever is going to save me money and/or make me happy over the long term. I'm a bit of an outlier because I'm self-employed and travel for work so I actually can live anywhere, as long as I can commute to an airport easily 6-8 times a month. Technically I am a millenial, I turned 33 earlier this year, but I don't identify much with the standard portrayal because I dropped out of college, have no debt, and eventually learned a trade and joined a union. I can certainly see how people wouldn't be interested (even 2 years ago I didn't think I would own a house before I was 40), but if you sit down, crunch the numbers and find out you can in fact own something you would like to live in, every little thing you'd like to change about your rentals can nag pretty hard.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 01:20
|
|
|
One major downside of modern construction is the ubiquity of slab foundations with buried utilities. You better hope you got the layout of the house perfect the first go around because there is no reasonable way to change it once the concrete sets.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 01:29
|
|
|
So move to buttfuck nowhere and never be home? Sounds like a plan for anyone with a real job! The anecdotal "oh I love My Own House or My Super Rental in XYZ situation that is unique to my particular set of privileges" posting isn't particularly relevant to a real discussion. I'd love to see statistics about durability of construction materials and expected life wear of new housing stock though, I remember when Chinese Drywall Disaster was a thing and people were really nervous about buying when it became popular in the media. Remember it was the initial GI Bill and the conclusion of two world wars and a world destroying depression that gave rise to the phenomenon of individual home ownership in the US. much like a diamond being forever, the notion of "life stages" and starter homes is manufactured by people who stand to make money off the top.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 01:30
|
|
|
In a way the narrative of housing as a path to riches has stepped up to fill the void left by decreasing class mobility and the stagnation of wages.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 01:36
|
|
|
Shifty Pony posted:If you want to rent a house (or some apartments) you likely will need to file an application to rent it before you see the unit. Occupancy is at 97% so you get zero negotiation on rent increases (often over 10-15%) or any terms at all really, if you don't like it there are 8 other people right behind you. Code enforcement is a joke so dangerous properties are everywhere. The local realtor group managed to get a rule change allowing up to 3% of the housing in the city to be taken off the market for people who actually live here and instead rented as short term vacation rentals for $10k+ per week for South by Southwest and F1 (because the realtors make bank managing those units for out of area investors and selling people on higher house prices by telling them they can rent out part of it for special event weekends). Neighborhood associations vehemently oppose any increase in density. Amazing analysis. That is what NYC came from.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 01:42
|
|
|
Shifty Pony posted:In a way the narrative of housing as a path to riches has stepped up to fill the void left by decreasing class mobility and the stagnation of wages. Then there's other factor such as the knowledge focus economy leading a shift back to urban areas, the shorter term nature of employment in which most people switch companies every few years and also how the recent recession has soured people's view of the must have home ownership mindset. whitey delenda est posted:So move to buttfuck nowhere and never be home? Sounds like a plan for anyone with a real job! Due to leaps and bounds in technology a well-built newer home will have lots of advantages such as higher energy efficiency. Even basic things like building siding or even roof shingles have advanced greatly due to improvements in material science. etalian fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Jun 8, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 01:45
|
|
|
etalian posted:
I think this is the rub. I'm skeptical of the availability of these advantages across market segments, although I accept the idea that materials are more advanced and construction science has come a long way. a whole lot of the mass produced McMansion housing in suburbs is thrown together quickly and sold to people who are essentially rubes, and a company doesn't have to worry about longevity given that the social pressure is to buy a new house once you have kids or change jobs (which happens objectively more frequently now) and continually recycle your mortgage. There's no incentive to build a house that'll last thirty years. I know I'm not bringing any data to the discussion, but as someone who's worked construction in the past, gently caress if any of my (I'm 30) friends who own their own piece of suburban hell have quality built homes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:05
|
|
|
whitey delenda est posted:So move to buttfuck nowhere and never be home? Sounds like a plan for anyone with a real job! I wasn't coming to argue that anyone can or should own a home anywhere, just trying to give some perspective on why someone might decide to buy one even if they don't plan to make a huge profit selling it later. Sorry, maybe this isn't a great thread for that conversation.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:09
|
|
|
Given the increase in rent in a lot of places, once you account for tax advantages it can range from cheaper to significantly cheaper to own than rent. Swinging a down payment is the hard part, of course.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:12
|
|
|
Kalman posted:Given the increase in rent in a lot of places, once you account for tax advantages it can range from cheaper to significantly cheaper to own than rent. Not really probably biggest factor is how long you intend to stay in the area, given how home debtorship has other costs such as the downpayment and also closing costs.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:22
|
|
|
wixard posted:I'm not actually in buttfuck nowhere, I'm a few miles west of Chapel Hill. My unincorporated part of the county is rural enough to be eligible for USDA development loans, but it's only a 10min commute to UNC, 25min commute to Duke University or the biggest mall in the state, and 30min commute to most of the tech companies in Research Triangle Park. What convinced me I could own a house wasn't my particular set of privileges, it was talking it over with one of my best friends from high school who owns a decent house in Raleigh on 40hrs/week at Whole Foods. Yeah sorry I kinda jumped on your post as an example and I didn't mean to be a dick. I live in the south too and I basically would be in the same situation if I didn't want to go back overseas. I guess to relate your anecdote to a more general idea, what's happening in Raleigh and the triangle is similar to what started in Austin about... I dunno, 15 years ago? There's been a bunch of incentives to move corporate offices into town and coupled with a large producer(s, go Devils DDMF) of college graduates there's been huge population growth in the area. However both areas have a tonnnn of undeveloped space to sprawl into, and I remember when your area (out 54? Or By university lake?) was all pine trees. Even when I was in school ten years ago they were mass clearing land in that direction as well as south on 501 and 751. People don't have to pay you much because cost of living is low, housing is cheap, etc. what Shifty Pony describes going down in Austin is right around the corner in the triangle.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:27
|
|
|
etalian posted:Then there's other factor such as the knowledge focus economy leading a shift back to urban areas, the shorter term nature of employment in which most people switch companies every few years and also how the recent recession has soured people's view of the must have home ownership mindset. I'm in the middle of NYC and all the buildings around me are 80 years old.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 22:28 |
|
|
I've lived in Austin for a few years, but now my sister is moving down and we're thinking of buying a house together. Unfortunately, it's the absolute worst time to start looking, and I'm kicking myself for not doing it a couple of years ago. The most annoying part is that investors are buying up houses to flip for a profit, and I keep walking through some of the worst, laziest remodeling jobs I've ever seen. I went to a house yesterday listed for $350k: it had brand new granite countertops and backsplash tile in the kitchen...and rotting siding in the back and old single-pane windows one of which had a huge crack. Thanks rear end in a top hat, but if you weren't going to bother to fix up the house, you could have let someone else buy it and do that for themselves rather than dropping a few thou on loving countertops and thinking you deserve a huge markup.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:32
|
|
