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SedanChair posted:Again, like most liberals you're obsessed with the narrative of progress. Slavery was obsolete, and social justice had little to do with its obsolescence. Of all the reasons for its gradual replacement by wage slavery, sharecropping and the expansion and industrialization of the prison state, the fact that it was an abhorrent practice did not really amount to anything. If northern capitalists had been able to profit through the plantation system they would have used it. They could not, so they supported the arguments of abolitionists instead. If capitalists now were able to profit through the use of chattel slavery they would use it, and advance talking points to make it legal. I will actually agree with you that it was the industrial revolution which brought about the end of chattel slavery in the west, but abolitionism did not just materialize out of the air, it was the product of enlightenment thinking and was highly successful in areas where slavery was not a key part of the economy. That doesn't sound like much, but consider the alternative: Slavery could have continued right along in small numbers in areas where slaves were used primarily for domestic labor, like England, New England, Upper Canada, etc, but it didn't, because of a rise in moral disgust for the institution.. And it was the increasing spread of lack of tolerance for slavery that led to the great Southern freak-out that became the eventual end of legal slavery in the United States. I will not argue with you that this force was weak. Yes, in areas where slavery was highly, highly profitable, like the Southern US, Caribbean, or Brazil, moral judgements would never have killed off slavery, it was the changes in the economy that did slavery in and allowed morality in to extinguish it once it had become increasingly obsolete. But nonetheless, you can't argue that the morality-based motive to extinguish chattel slavery did not exist, or that it had zero impact. 200 years ago, women like me had no civil rights and no chance at anything other than the shittiest of underpaid employment outside the home. I'm not going to say that there's been zero social progress in the last 200 years, because it's just not true. And I usually do not argue idealistic positions, but your position is so unrealistically far in the other direction there's not much choice.
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Jun 15, 2014 19:33
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Sucrose posted:And I usually do not argue idealistic positions, but your position is so unrealistically far in the other direction there's not much choice. I also take the worst possible interpretation of someone's words to give me something to get mad at, over the internet. THis is a hobby i enjoy very much,
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Jun 15, 2014 19:34
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Popular Thug Drink posted:I also take the worst possible interpretation of someone's words to give me something to get mad at, over the internet. THis is a hobby i enjoy very much, SedanChair posted:OP, would whites re-institute slavery today if they could in as literal a manner as you intend the question, and in as literal a manner as you are capable of processing arguments? Of course not. Markets proved wage slavery to be generally superior to chattel slavery, which is why the South got all butthurt and started a terroristic civil war to begin with. As I said on Page 3, anyone who thinks the current status quo of racism is no better than actual slavery is a fool, or trying to be edgy.
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Jun 15, 2014 19:41
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I'm not arguing that the life of a slave wasn't terrifying rear end compared to that of almost any American now living. But to view the abolition of slavery as progress is a little simplistic. The abolition of slavery, the expansion of the franchise, rising prosperity etc, these are all illusions brought about by unprecedented prosperity. It could all disappear at any time when our lords find it convenient 
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Jun 15, 2014 19:48
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SedanChair posted:I'm not arguing that the life of a slave wasn't terrifying rear end compared to that of almost any American now living. But to view the abolition of slavery as progress is a little simplistic. The abolition of slavery, the expansion of the franchise, rising prosperity etc, these are all illusions brought about by unprecedented prosperity. It could all disappear at any time when our lords find it convenient I won't disagree, nor do I think progress in anything is inherently one-directional. Not by a long shot. I wouldn't call it "an illusion" though. Potentially the biggest problem right now is increasing wealth disparity. People as a whole, not just in the West, have had an increase in well-being over the past 100 years, and it would take a major gently caress-up to reverse that progress, but multiple things could still conceivably cause it to happen. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 19:55
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Sucrose posted:Actually SedanChair did literally say that, it's on page 3. The idea that even slight progress in social justice could have been made in the past 200 years goes against the fundamental beliefs of far-leftism, so you'd see people argue that water isn't wet if it lines up with their ideology about the state of the world. As a far leftist myself, I guess I, and almost all far leftists I know, missed that memo. That's a ridiculous caricature. Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 19:59
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the servers are burning down
boner confessor fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 19:59
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Sucrose posted:As I said on Page 3, anyone who thinks the current status quo of racism is no better than actual slavery is a fool, or trying to be edgy. I, also, think that people who think obviously stupid thing are obviously stupid. Now that we've all hit our sanctimonious outrage quota let's stick to things people actually said in this thread instead of things that people might have said if you want to take a grossly uncharitable interpretation of their words for the sole purpose of injecting your unrelated opinion into the thread. Rogue0071 posted:As a far leftist myself, I guess I, and almost all far leftists I know, missed that memo. That's a ridiculous caricature. Please don't say that we should murder all non-whites. THat's a horrible thing to say and you should feel ashamed of yourself. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 20:00
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Popular Thug Drink posted:the servers are burning down I told all of you, it begins. Keep an eye out for the slaving parties as you scavenge for canned food.
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Jun 15, 2014 20:07
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Popular Thug Drink posted:I, also, think that people who think obviously stupid thing are obviously stupid. Now that we've all hit our sanctimonious outrage quota let's stick to things people actually said in this thread instead of things that people might have said if you want to take a grossly uncharitable interpretation of their words for the sole purpose of injecting your unrelated opinion into the thread. Well, if someone doesn't want to be interpreted as saying something obviously stupid, maybe they should stop making obviously stupid and hyperbolic statements to try and make a point, and then it won't happen.
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Jun 15, 2014 20:09
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Sucrose posted:Well, if someone doesn't want to be interpreted as saying something obviously stupid, maybe they should stop making obviously stupid and hyperbolic statements to try and make a point, and then it won't happen. You've backed off of everything I've written. What's obviously stupid or hyperbolic?
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Jun 15, 2014 20:14
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Popular Thug Drink posted:I, also, think that people who think obviously stupid thing are obviously stupid. Now that we've all hit our sanctimonious outrage quota let's stick to things people actually said in this thread instead of things that people might have said if you want to take a grossly uncharitable interpretation of their words for the sole purpose of injecting your unrelated opinion into the thread. Well, if someone doesn't want to be interpreted as saying something obviously stupid, maybe they should stop making obviously stupid and hyperbolic statements to try and make a point, and then it won't happen. Rogue0071 posted:As a far leftist myself, I guess I, and almost all far leftists I know, missed that memo. That's a ridiculous caricature. And liberals are not "obsessed with the narrative of progress", either.
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Jun 15, 2014 20:14
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SedanChair posted:You've backed off of everything I've written. What's obviously stupid or hyperbolic? The "today's culture of racism no better than chattel slavery" thing, which you've now modified to an argument that "progress" is too simplistic an interpretation. This conversion is going in a circle and is pointless.
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Jun 15, 2014 20:23
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Sucrose posted:And liberals are not "obsessed with the narrative of progress", either. I haven't claimed they are, and if you want to criticize Sedanchair for making sweeping and inaccurate generalizations do so directly rather than making up more.
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Jun 15, 2014 20:24
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Rogue0071 posted:I haven't claimed they are, and if you want to criticize Sedanchair for making sweeping and inaccurate generalizations do so directly rather than making up more. Point taken. I'll admit I've been generalizing, I guess I'm influenced by the fact that I used to know a dyed-in-the-wool Marxist who said even more ridiculous things, and know others of a similar bent IRL. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 20:28
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Sucrose posted:The "today's culture of racism no better than chattel slavery" thing, which you've now modified to an argument that "progress" is too simplistic an interpretation. This conversion is going in a circle and is pointless. I thought it was productive, but it sounds like you've got some personal baggage that's leading you to make overblown inferences.
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Jun 15, 2014 20:35
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:My 80 year old grandmother from Arkansas told me black people were better off under slavery than today. So maybe some really old southerners would. My 50s-something father outright said they were better off under Segregationism because more blacks owned businesses blah-blah-good middle-class-values etc. I asked him where our 50-year-old family-owned grocery store was today.  computer parts posted:It's pretty clear that racism of sorts existed pre-Enlightenment. The story of the Good Samaritan is literally "this guy is one of the good ones" to a racist audience. No it loving wasn't. It was a clear condemnation of Religion and people who claim to be God's chosen "most righteous" people deliberately not doing the right thing for their fellow man because "God's Law". Seriously, here's how the story went: Man gets beaten up and left in a ditch A "Most Holy" Priest walks by on the way to temple, sees him, doesn't want to mess up his ceremonial robes, he doesn't help him. A "Most Righteous" Levite walks by, sees him, but because it's the sabbath and he's on his way to temple, he doesn't help him. A Samaritan (ie: a man who doesn't even belong to God's chosen religion/tribe)walks by, sees him, and not only helps him out, he takes him to an inn, dresses his wounds, pays for his stay while he recovers, etc. The Samaritan wasn't Holy or Righteous or even an adherent to "God's Law", but he was the only one who did the right thing for his fellow man. It wasn't "Oh Samaritans  you know how they are."
My Q-Face fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 20:55
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I thought racist honeypot threads were limited to GBS?
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Jun 15, 2014 23:32
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This kind of thinking is a reflection of a strain of paranoia among a minority within the black community. It's not entirely paranoid or unjustified (whites did -- in fact -- enslave them), but it's still paranoid. Most white people would be appalled at the thought today.Sharkie posted:Angola Prison
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Jun 16, 2014 00:28
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Except most whites are actually not appalled by the thought of making blacks subservient at all, sadly. Racism is still the most important constituent fact of this country. You can't begin to understand America without understanding racism. Just look how insane half the country has gone as a result of Obama's election. Those people aren't reacting to Obama as a politician; they're reacting to the fact that his election seemed (and mostly only seemed) to destabilize the established racial hierarchy.
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Jun 16, 2014 00:36
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Omi-Polari posted:It's a harrowing image and shows a practice I think should probably be abolished, but do you think voluntary convict labor is a form of slavery? Exploitation, yes. But slavery is a different thing. It's not chattel slavery, but it's certainly slavery, or involuntary labor from which individuals/organizations derive profit, whatever name you would like to give that. And it's not a coincidence that there was a major uptick in this practice right after chattel slavery was abolished, and that the prison population is disproportionately black. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 00:45
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Omi-Polari posted:It's a harrowing image and shows a practice I think should probably be abolished, but do you think voluntary convict labor is a form of slavery? Exploitation, yes. But slavery is a different thing. Uh, they make 20 cents an hour.
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Jun 16, 2014 00:51
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Paul MaudDib posted:It's not chattel slavery, but it's certainly slavery, or involuntary labor from which individuals/organizations derive profit, whatever name you would like to give that. And it's not a coincidence that there was a major uptick in this practice right after chattel slavery was abolished. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... The yearly cost of imprisonment is much higher than a minimum wage salary, which really goes a long way to explain why we don't use slaves anymore. Obviously prison labor is effectively subsidized by the state, but it shows that the economics are not very favorable.
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Jun 16, 2014 01:00
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Ogmius815 posted:Except most whites are actually not appalled by the thought of making blacks subservient at all, sadly. Racism is still the most important constituent fact of this country. You can't begin to understand America without understanding racism. Just look how insane half the country has gone as a result of Obama's election. Those people aren't reacting to Obama as a politician; they're reacting to the fact that his election seemed (and mostly only seemed) to destabilize the established racial hierarchy. Paul MaudDib posted:It's not chattel slavery, but it's certainly slavery, or involuntary labor from which individuals/organizations derive profit, whatever name you would like to give that. And it's not a coincidence that there was a major uptick in this practice right after chattel slavery was abolished. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... SedanChair posted:Uh, they make 20 cents an hour.
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Jun 16, 2014 01:02
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Omi-Polari posted:Yeah that's certainly true in part but also partly non-falsifiable. A big chunk of them would have gone insane if Obama was white. Look at the stuff they regularly say about Hillary Clinton, for example. So how much of this insanity is exclusive to Obama and how much of it is not? Well, some of it clearly is. But it's difficult to tell and you also show that: "his election seemed," "mostly only seemed." So it appears that way, it seems that way, but how much of it is an appearance and how much of it is a fact? Again, some of it's a fact, other times it might just be an appearance. Yeah if only there were some white democratic presidents to form a basis for comparison...
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Jun 16, 2014 01:05
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Yes, I'm sure.
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Jun 16, 2014 01:05
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Omi-Polari posted:This kind of thinking is a reflection of a strain of paranoia among a minority within the black community. It's not entirely paranoid or unjustified (whites did -- in fact -- enslave them), but it's still paranoid. Most white people would be appalled at the thought today. Many prisons charge you for being kept there. If you do not work while you are there they will hold you on a poo poo load of money when you get out. If you don't pay it it doesn't just mess up your credit either, since you technically owe the government. They can withhold issuing you a license.
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Jun 16, 2014 01:08
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Ogmius815 posted:Except most whites are actually not appalled by the thought of making blacks subservient at all, sadly. Completely made up bullshit unsupported by facts or logic. quote:Just look how insane half the country has gone as a result of Obama's election. Those people aren't reacting to Obama as a politician; they're reacting to the fact that his election seemed (and mostly only seemed) to destabilize the established racial hierarchy. Completely made up bullshit unsupported by facts or logic. Ogmius815 posted:Yeah if only there were some white democratic presidents to form a basis for comparison... Republicans HATED Clinton with a passion. Think of the famous conservative voices: pretty much all of them achieved incredible popularity hating on Clinton. Limbaugh, Hannity, Drudge, Coulter. Fox News started during Clinton's presidency. On and on. Not sure who you are trying to fool by just posting deluded nonsense.
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Jun 16, 2014 01:19
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Sucrose posted:I won't disagree, nor do I think progress in anything is inherently one-directional. Not by a long shot. I wouldn't call it "an illusion" though. Potentially the biggest problem right now is increasing wealth disparity. People as a whole, not just in the West, have had an increase in well-being over the past 100 years, and it would take a major gently caress-up to reverse that progress, but multiple things could still conceivably cause it to happen. I hope you realize that we're headed for like a dozen "major fuckups" that would roll back the progress we've made within our lifetimes, a few of which will probably happen within 15 years. Omi-Polari posted:Are they forced to work? Are they bought and sold as property? Facts matter. You say it's involuntary labor. Are you sure? Given that often if you "opt out" of a prison-work program you'll face punitive repercussions like loss of privileges at the best and adseg or beatings from/orchestrated by guards, yes they are forced to work. Given the increasing privatization of the prison industry, the moving of prisoners across state lines, and the fact that funding grants with conditions on the types of people you arrest lead to poo poo like Tulia, yes they are bought and sold as property. Not literally as chattel, but in the sense that their body has a dollar value attached to it based on where they are held, for how long, and how much work they will do over that time. on the left posted:The yearly cost of imprisonment is much higher than a minimum wage salary, which really goes a long way to explain why we don't use slaves anymore. Obviously prison labor is effectively subsidized by the state, but it shows that the economics are not very favorable. The cost of a gallon of gas is a shitload more than $4.50 a gallon, and the cost of corn is more than 25 cents an ear. That doesn't mean that BP and Green Giant don't make a profit off doing what they do. The economics "aren't favorable" but government involvement distorts the """""market""""" and there is also additional value in terms of the tertiary effects (e.g. a permanent underclass of wage-slaves who can't vote, a projection of American force abroad securing Americnan interests globally and cementing the American position as unipolar hegemon, and using agricultural subsidies to subjugate the third-world and turn them into subservient monocultures reliant on predatory international loans to export whatever we can't grow domestically and import everything we undercut their prices on after we've destroyed their domestic market for it).
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Jun 16, 2014 01:34
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Arkane posted:
Calling Obama a spearchucker has nothing to do with his race. The birther movement has nothing to do with Obama's black ancestry, not at all.
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Jun 16, 2014 01:44
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Pantsuit posted:Calling Obama a spearchucker has nothing to do with his race. The birther movement has nothing to do with Obama's black ancestry, not at all. Of course yeah that's racist. But the other poster said this was half the country believing this. I don't think half the United States calls black people spearchuckers. This is a loud, angry minority.
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Jun 16, 2014 01:46
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Omi-Polari posted:Well, more directly African ancestry. You don't see the same conspiracy theories about Michelle Obama. Well, you wouldn't see the same conspiracy theory anyway since Michelle Obama isn't POTUS. There's no Constitutional requirements on the citizenship of the first lady, it's not even an official position. You do see some conspiracy theories that involve Michelle. quote:All of these conspiracy theories offer some variation of an African-American stereotype. The disbarred theory hinges on the idea that Michelle Obama is a criminal. Michelle Obama needs more assistants than Laura Bush because she is lazy. The First Lady is being uppity when she dares to tell white people what to eat. The vegetable garden is a fake because she is untrustworthy. The whitey remarks conspiracy is because she hates white people. And certainly there's an incredible amount of vitriol directed at her, quite a bit of which involves racial stuff. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 01:49
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Omi-Polari posted:Well, more directly African ancestry. You don't see the same conspiracy theories about Michelle Obama. These sorts of beliefs and values are common amongst whites. Even if the overts are a minority (which i doubt), the sentiment is still there, albeit hidden. Racism is virulent and almost every white person has some sort of defense mechanism or superiority complex as a hangover from being raised in a racist society.
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Jun 16, 2014 02:11
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Ogmius815 posted:Except most whites are actually not appalled by the thought of making blacks subservient at all, sadly. Racism is still the most important constituent fact of this country. This is true. My apartment is a mess, and while I'm not saying I'd cast a vote for slavery if I got a slave out of it to pick things up around here, I am saying that I would do exactly that. Of course, this is D&D so cue some SJW college student jumping all over me about how I'm racist for wanting a clean apartment. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 02:12
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Arkane posted:Completely made up bullshit unsupported by facts or logic. Then get out an oar because you've returned to your home waters.
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Jun 16, 2014 06:23
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Arkane posted:Completely made up bullshit unsupported by facts or logic. So are you fakeposting as an intense bitter teabagger or is that still your actual schtick? Given that you were whining about D&D groupthink earlier you've yet to diverge from the butthurt exile playbook. Screaming about FACTS and LOGIC without doing anything to substantiate your arguments is just sour grapes, duder. Anyway, it's pretty much common knowledge that a huge portion of the US population has an enormous hate on for Obama for no other reason seemingly than he's black. See all the conspiracies that he's a secret tyrant, employs the welfare state to prop up his unconstitutional agenda, etc. Hell, there's even all this rightist propaganda about being kept on the mental plantation, purportedly targeted at black voters but really for resentful white voters. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 06:50
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SedanChair posted:Then get out an oar because you've returned to your home waters. You're 2 for 2 on ad homs, and 2 for 2 on ad homs that make no sense. Can you be any worse at arguing? How about you just respond to what I said instead of trying to turn it around on me with some boilerplate troll bullshit. This is a sentence that the poster made up out of thin air because it sounds good and/or the poster is insane and/or under the influence: "Except most whites are actually not appalled by the thought of making blacks subservient at all, sadly." This one too: "Those people aren't reacting to Obama as a politician; they're reacting to the fact that his election seemed (and mostly only seemed) to destabilize the established racial hierarchy."
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Jun 16, 2014 06:56
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Arkane posted:This is a sentence that the poster made up out of thin air because it sounds good and/or the poster is insane and/or under the influence: "Except most whites are actually not appalled by the thought of making blacks subservient at all, sadly." This one too: "Those people aren't reacting to Obama as a politician; they're reacting to the fact that his election seemed (and mostly only seemed) to destabilize the established racial hierarchy." Neither of these are all that unlikely nor incomprehensible, instead of trying to demonstrate why your jimmies are rustled you just assert that the people who said it are dumb and illogical. Great thanks good contribution, I'd like to remind you all that Arkane is a famously limp dicked poster who contributes to that constellation of dead forums dedicated to being angry and upset that SA isn't their own personal hugbox and yet isn't smart enough to get a new alt account or simply stop posting here. There are more than enough examples of white people freaking out about Obama because he is a Like you can't just count for your own cracker outrage to carry your argument, simple shouting at the wind isn't going to cut it friend and registering your personal disagreement over the statement "Except most whites are actually not appalled by the thought of making blacks subservient at all, sadly." counts for pretty much nothing so long as you're unwilling to back up your irritation with anything more than generic statements about the poor quality of the forums. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 07:03
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Anyway, it's pretty much common knowledge that a huge portion of the US population has an enormous hate on for Obama for no other reason seemingly than he's black. See all the conspiracies that he's a secret tyrant, employs the welfare state to prop up his unconstitutional agenda, etc. Hell, there's even all this rightist propaganda about being kept on the mental plantation, purportedly targeted at black voters but really for resentful white voters. Repeating the same made up thing that the other dude said with different words does not codify it into a fact. "Common knowledge" guys. Yup, argument's over. It's common knowledge. Move along everyone.
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Jun 16, 2014 07:05
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Arkane posted:You're 2 for 2 on ad homs, and 2 for 2 on ad homs that make no sense. Can you be any worse at arguing? Why would I do that? Arkane you are a person who has literally chosen to serve evil. It comes out in everything you post, you have integrated hatred, nihilism and destruction into yourself. You're determined to champion the high over the low until society collapses. You've assembled for yourself a carefully curated selection of talking points from which you never diverge, and they are all identifiable as being a part of the web of right-wing false knowledge that was created partly as entertainment and partly as propaganda. You see it; you see the edges of it, that it has no basis other than evil, but you've chosen to serve it. Or at least insofar as posting constitutes "service." Why would I spend even a minute acting as though you were worth having an argument with?
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Jun 16, 2014 07:05
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