Read Some Real Literature: Anyway hail satantango

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Read Some Real Literature: Anyway hail satantango

Wraith of J.O.I.: Jan 25, 2012

Any Ferrante fans here looking forward to final Neapolitan novel coming out next week? Kinda sad to see it end, but I know I'll devour in a couple days.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 03:38

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 11:03

Burning Rain: Jul 17, 2006; What's happening?!?!

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Genghis Khan and Marco Polo stare at their shoes and listen to the Decemberists for 200 pages - SparkNotes for Invisible Cities

not gonna lie, this sounds cool. and there's nothing wrong with stoner fantasies being given some more thought and form in a beautiful prose. it's a valid way to think about 'invisible cities', i think.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 06:57

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

what if calvino were about weed

# ? Aug 28, 2015 07:16

thehoodie: Feb 8, 2011; "Eat something made with love and joy - and be forgiven"

Wraith of J.O.I. posted:

Any Ferrante fans here looking forward to final Neapolitan novel coming out next week? Kinda sad to see it end, but I know I'll devour in a couple days.

Absolutely. I tore through the first three in about a week each before realizing I'd have to wait for the final one to come out. Have it on preorder at the local book store, will be heading down there as soon as I get the chance. Really don't know what to expect from it apart from another brilliant book.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 08:33

Mr. Squishy: Mar 22, 2010; A country where you can always get richer.

blue squares posted:

this thread spends too much time discussing books I have not and will not ever read, please stop thanks

Q: Can graphic novels be Literature?

A: Possibly. I read a graphic novel called Blankets (Craig Thompson) and it moved me, though primarily because the protagonist's life mirrored my own very closely. I am curious whether someone who is less similar to the protag might feel about the work.

gently caress off to BSS with your comics.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 11:17

Lunchmeat Larry: Nov 3, 2012

blue squares posted:

this thread spends too much time discussing books I have not and will not ever read, please stop thanks

you should read them

# ? Aug 28, 2015 11:29

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Wraith of J.O.I. posted:

Any Ferrante fans here looking forward to final Neapolitan novel coming out next week? Kinda sad to see it end, but I know I'll devour in a couple days.

I have all the books set aside and want to read them as a complete series when they are all out.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 11:43

CestMoi: Sep 16, 2011

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Its probably the best for everyone to avoid the "what is literature?" debate no. 529677 but I will just say we are probably at an impasse wrt this

I'm interested now though! To me the thing that makes something literature is the immediate and visceral "I like to read this". Meaning is unnecessary for that feeling in me and while it improves a lot of books to have cool meaning to think about, if they don't have the pleasure of simply reading a beautifully constructed set of words then lots of meaningand themes and whatever won't save the book for me.

Heck, I'd probably be more inclined to call just relying on themes to be a "parlour trick" cos that's basically what bad sci fi and fantasy is, it's exploring themes of things which any idiot can do without actually writing anything that I derive aesthetic pleasure from.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 14:41

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

CestMoi posted:

I'm interested now though! To me the thing that makes something literature is the immediate and visceral "I like to read this". Meaning is unnecessary for that feeling in me and while it improves a lot of books to have cool meaning to think about, if they don't have the pleasure of simply reading a beautifully constructed set of words then lots of meaningand themes and whatever won't save the book for me.

Heck, I'd probably be more inclined to call just relying on themes to be a "parlour trick" cos that's basically what bad sci fi and fantasy is, it's exploring themes of things which any idiot can do without actually writing anything that I derive aesthetic pleasure from.

For me it's not even about themes as much as subject positioning. Literature for me should create an experience wherein you are forced to parse the world around you through a perspective alien to you. It should allow you to experience events entirely outside of the self, and force you to reconstruct your own subjectivity at its completion.

My frustration with the idea that Calvino should be read merely on the merits of images is that it doesn't ask the reader to challenge themselves to become something more than who they were when they began the experience. Art, in my mind, must at some level create a transformative experience. Anything else is simple consumption.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 15:27

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

For example, when I began writing Invisible Cities I had only a vague idea of what the frame, the architecture of the book would be. But then, little by little, the design became so important that it carried the entire book; it became the plot of a book that had no plot. With The Castle of Crossed Destinies we can say the same�the architecture is the book itself. By then I had reached a level of obsession with structure such that I almost became crazy about it. It can be said about If on a Winter�s Night a Traveler that it could not have existed without a very precise, very articulated structure. I believe I have succeeded in this, which gives me a great satisfaction. Of course, all this kind of effort should not concern the reader at all. The important thing is to enjoy reading my book, independently of the work I have put into it.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 16:15

Earwicker: Jan 6, 2003

Mel Mudkiper posted:

My frustration with the idea that Calvino should be read merely on the merits of images is that it doesn't ask the reader to challenge themselves to become something more than who they were when they began the experience. Art, in my mind, must at some level create a transformative experience. Anything else is simple consumption.

Deriving great pleasure or having some other strong emotional response to an image (or other artistic construction) can be a transformative experience for many people, and one that can easily be entirely separate from the intended meaning of that image, if one is even present.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 16:35

CestMoi: Sep 16, 2011

Mel Mudkiper posted:

For me it's not even about themes as much as subject positioning. Literature for me should create an experience wherein you are forced to parse the world around you through a perspective alien to you. It should allow you to experience events entirely outside of the self, and force you to reconstruct your own subjectivity at its completion.

My frustration with the idea that Calvino should be read merely on the merits of images is that it doesn't ask the reader to challenge themselves to become something more than who they were when they began the experience. Art, in my mind, must at some level create a transformative experience. Anything else is simple consumption.

I guess you're right that we're never going to agree about this, but it's interesting stuff.

Also I was trying to find a way to say what Earwicker just said but then he said it well so I think that too.

CestMoi fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Aug 28, 2015

# ? Aug 28, 2015 16:37

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Ras Het posted:

For example, when I began writing Invisible Cities I had only a vague idea of what the frame, the architecture of the book would be. But then, little by little, the design became so important that it carried the entire book; it became the plot of a book that had no plot. With The Castle of Crossed Destinies we can say the same—the architecture is the book itself. By then I had reached a level of obsession with structure such that I almost became crazy about it. It can be said about If on a Winter’s Night a Traveler that it could not have existed without a very precise, very articulated structure. I believe I have succeeded in this, which gives me a great satisfaction. Of course, all this kind of effort should not concern the reader at all. The important thing is to enjoy reading my book, independently of the work I have put into it.

Man you are gonna try to call me out by saying I read like a high schooler and then turn around and try to come at me with authorial intent?

CestMoi posted:

I guess you're right that we're never going to agree about this, but it's interesting stuff.

Because Literature is a social construction there will never be a definition for it that isn't completely arbitrary and subject to easy deconstruction. Trying to argue about what it is with any authority is doomed to never go anywhere. The question is ultimately worth more than the answer, so it's cool that you are curious about it.

Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Aug 28, 2015

# ? Aug 28, 2015 16:41

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Man you are gonna try to call me out by saying I read like a high schooler and then turn around and try to come at me with authorial intent?

Oh come on. 1) I'm a drop-out, I do not care about continental philosophy remotely at all, but also 2) "the author is dead" isn't a creed and this isn't the Spanish inquisition.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 16:48

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Ras Het posted:

Oh come on. 1) I'm a drop-out, I do not care about continental philosophy remotely at all, but also 2) "the author is dead" isn't a creed and this isn't the Spanish inquisition.

Don't pick a fight about criticism and then try to back out like you totally don't actually care about criticism.

If you disagree about why I dislike Calvino, that's cool. But don't start a dick measuring contest if you aren't willing to whip yours out.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 16:54

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

The fight I was picking was that you "criticise" too much, really.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 16:57

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

Mr. Squishy posted:

gently caress off to BSS with your comics.

the hungry little caterpillar, madeline, and babar the colonialist apologist elephant all have Text that can be interrogated and so I think that's clear evidence that books for children can be Literature*

*"graphic novels" are for children

# ? Aug 28, 2015 18:21

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Don't pick a fight about criticism and then try to back out like you totally don't actually care about criticism.

If you disagree about why I dislike Calvino, that's cool. But don't start a dick measuring contest if you aren't willing to whip yours out.

The main issue I am having (beyond "I disagree with you" which, you know, de gustibus) is that there are a lot of ways to uncharitably read your critique. Like it's possible to think that your concern is one of:

1) calvino's narrative are characters are paperthin constructs in the service of ideas
2) calvino's work is philosophical navel-gazing
3) calvino's work is just na�ve imagism and does not reward contemplation

1 and 2) seems to the same sort of equating of lit with "a good story" that is the justification used by people who read warhammer books almost exclusively 3) seems to undersell a lot of the aesthetic appeal of reading and literature that makes for instance poetry rewarding.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 18:29

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Mel Mudkiper posted:

For me it's not even about themes as much as subject positioning. Literature for me should create an experience wherein you are forced to parse the world around you through a perspective alien to you. It should allow you to experience events entirely outside of the self, and force you to reconstruct your own subjectivity at its completion.

My frustration with the idea that Calvino should be read merely on the merits of images is that it doesn't ask the reader to challenge themselves to become something more than who they were when they began the experience. Art, in my mind, must at some level create a transformative experience. Anything else is simple consumption.

Well, I'm not sure what you mean. Surely the presentation of images can produce this altered perspective too, right? And thus a transformative experience.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 18:35

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Tree Goat posted:

The main issue I am having (beyond "I disagree with you" which, you know, de gustibus) is that there are a lot of ways to uncharitably read your critique. Like it's possible to think that your concern is one of:

1) calvino's narrative are characters are paperthin constructs in the service of ideas
2) calvino's work is philosophical navel-gazing
3) calvino's work is just naïve imagism and does not reward contemplation

1 and 2) seems to the same sort of equating of lit with "a good story" that is the justification used by people who read warhammer books almost exclusively 3) seems to undersell a lot of the aesthetic appeal of reading and literature that makes for instance poetry rewarding.

You are correct about me saying 1 and 2, but I disagree with your conclusions. Good characters are not in service of a "good story". Many books identified as "good stories" have absolutely garbage characters. Lord of the Rings is an example of this. Good characters are in service of the power to displace the subjectivity of the reader. It has nothing to do with plot.

As for 2, philosophical ideas have a value in literature, I just do not think they are very interesting ideas he explores.

3 is not something I think at all.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 19:38

Shibawanko: Feb 13, 2013

I don't know if this is the discussion you're having, but to me ideas in books don't function very differently from images. You can have artless ideas just like you can have artless imagery. The difference between ideas and images is more a matter of length.

I'm still trying to find Kyoko no Ie and/or Utsukushii Hoshi. I tried a bunch of bookstores but no luck. I did find a copy of Mishima's letters and a book of photographs. I might order online but I kind of want an excuse to head over to Jinbocho, which is the main bookstore neighborhood here, and hang out there.

# ? Aug 28, 2015 23:45

Grimson: Dec 16, 2004

Mel Mudkiper posted:

As for 2, philosophical ideas have a value in literature, I just do not think they are very interesting ideas he explores.

To me Calvino's generally effective, but more as a trigger for reflection than as a fleshed out exploration. I'm certainly not gonna say Invisible Cities is "primarily just imagery" or whatever, because Calvino explicitly invests his stuff with emotional significance right there on the surface, but I do think it's somewhat unfair to say his philosophical exploration is too shallow - because any such exploration, by design, is left to the reader. The way Calvino's counterfactual realities structure emotional experience can encourage reflection on how our real experiences are structured by actual-reality. And I think crafting compelling imagery that invites such reflection is valid in itself, without the onus of further articulation being placed on the book. If you think Calvino's not effective at eliciting that reflection/response from the reader, well, fair enough - but "pfft, not enough mature philosophical exploration here" is sort of a square peg/round hole situation I'd say.

That said I don't think it's necessarily insane to react to his stuff, nonetheless, as college weedthoughts - it's been a real long time since I read Invisible Cities so I can't speak to that, but I did just read Cosmicomics recently, and while it's real good overall, I did have a recurring feeling of "dude I don't need yet another metaphor for 'unrequited yearning for a hottt babe.'" So I have at least some sense that I get where you're coming from on that one.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 00:12

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

blue squares posted:

Q: Can graphic novels be Literature?

Maus is the usual answer here.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 03:01

guts and bolts: May 16, 2015; Have you heard the Good News?

computer parts posted:

Maus is the usual answer here.

I usually get Watchmen in response whenever I ask this.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 03:12

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

guts and bolts posted:

I usually get Watchmen in response whenever I ask this.

lol

# ? Aug 29, 2015 03:16

Shibawanko: Feb 13, 2013

computer parts posted:

Maus is the usual answer here.

You misspelled "manga".

# ? Aug 29, 2015 03:17

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

guts and bolts posted:

I usually get Watchmen in response whenever I ask this.

Watchmen is like going "Well if cartoon characters/Who Framed Roger Rabbit really did exist then the government would hire them to be invincible assassins".

Or I guess that's Miracleman, but same author.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 03:43

guts and bolts: May 16, 2015; Have you heard the Good News?

computer parts posted:

Watchmen is like going "Well if cartoon characters/Who Framed Roger Rabbit really did exist then the government would hire them to be invincible assassins".

Or I guess that's Miracleman, but same author.

My exposure to Alan Moore is limited mostly to perceived "wacky antics" and anti-social behavior touted on various nerd forums/subreddits/whatever and Watchmen; I don't know how seriously that poo poo was supposed to be taken, but I remember really hating it when I read it the first time and hating it even more the second. Getting into conversations about what "serious" (meaning sincere, I guess?) fiction is tends to be really boring, but having friends of mine - friends with what I'd call usually good taste - loving insist that Watchmen is some generation-defining masterwork depresses me.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 04:00

Shibawanko: Feb 13, 2013

I don't understand the mind who reads an American comic book and then decides he wants to read another one.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 04:38

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

blue squares posted:

Q: Can graphic novels be Literature?

Shibawanko posted:

I don't understand the mind who reads an American comic book and then decides he wants to read another one.

Alan Moore is English. :eng101:

More to the point, the best answers are Maus and Neil Gaiman's Sandman. Sandman is far and away the best thing Neil Gaiman's ever done. Of course, the other side of that is, there's a reason Gaiman generally isn't discussed in this thread, too. Another good example is Persepolis.

Past that to answer the question you have to decide how you define "literature." Do the original Sherlock Holmes stories count, for example? What about Wodehouse's Jeeves & Wooster shorts? Not just high art / low art divisions, but how much does technical complexity matter, thematic depth, prose style, etc. ? Is it enough for literature to just be technically well-executed entertainment?

Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Aug 29, 2015

# ? Aug 29, 2015 04:52

blue squares: Sep 28, 2007

guts and bolts posted:

My exposure to Alan Moore is limited mostly to perceived "wacky antics" and anti-social behavior touted on various nerd forums/subreddits/whatever and Watchmen; I don't know how seriously that poo poo was supposed to be taken, but I remember really hating it when I read it the first time and hating it even more the second. Getting into conversations about what "serious" (meaning sincere, I guess?) fiction is tends to be really boring, but having friends of mine - friends with what I'd call usually good taste - loving insist that Watchmen is some generation-defining masterwork depresses me.

Alan Moore's FROM HELL is far better

# ? Aug 29, 2015 04:56

Raxivace: Sep 9, 2014

Why are we comparing comic books to literature? They're two entirely different mediums.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 05:01

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Raxivace posted:

Why are we comparing comic books to literature? They're two entirely different mediums.

excuse me

_{_{_{a bad mod who troll he own forum}}}
_{_{_{a shameful mod}}}

# ? Aug 29, 2015 05:05

Raxivace: Sep 9, 2014

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

excuse me

_{_{_{a bad mod who troll he own forum}}}
_{_{_{a shameful mod}}}

Good lord do those first two panels make my eyes bleed. You are shameful indeed for posting that.

Btw I'm gonna second Persepolis as being pretty great.

Raxivace fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Aug 29, 2015

# ? Aug 29, 2015 05:10

Shibawanko: Feb 13, 2013

You don't have to try and redefine a whole category in order to allow yourself to enjoy dumb poo poo. Everybody enjoys dumb poo poo. Sherlock Holmes is dumb crap and will waste your time. It will not be the kind of thing you remember on your deathbed. If you need it to get through the day though then by all means read it? It's really not that complicated.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 06:27

Smoking Crow: Feb 14, 2012; *laughs at u*

Shibawanko posted:

You don't have to try and redefine a whole category in order to allow yourself to enjoy dumb poo poo. Everybody enjoys dumb poo poo. Sherlock Holmes is dumb crap and will waste your time. It will not be the kind of thing you remember on your deathbed. If you need it to get through the day though then by all means read it? It's really not that complicated.

Trust me, there are people who will remember Sherlock Holmes on their deathbed. They're the people who sent Conan Doyle death threats because he tried to quit writing Sherlock Holmes stories

Also, Tezuka's Phoenix is art

# ? Aug 29, 2015 07:26

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Seriously read building stories and fun home

# ? Aug 29, 2015 11:38

Mr. Squishy: Mar 22, 2010; A country where you can always get richer.

Instead let's watch the musical of fun home and discuss that here, in the book barn.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 11:43

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Shibawanko posted:

You don't have to try and redefine a whole category in order to allow yourself to enjoy dumb poo poo. Everybody enjoys dumb poo poo. Sherlock Holmes is dumb crap and will waste your time. It will not be the kind of thing you remember on your deathbed. If you need it to get through the day though then by all means read it? It's really not that complicated.

I dunno, I mean I remember some Sherlock Holmes stuff pretty well, like the falls or that one story that ended up with the Englishwoman having a half-black baby that she was trying to hide from the world.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 12:42

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# ? Apr 19, 2024 11:03

Mr. Squishy: Mar 22, 2010; A country where you can always get richer.

That one's so good.

# ? Aug 29, 2015 13:03

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