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I had the unfortunate experience lately of watching the online self-destruction of an individual claiming to be several flavors of tubmlr. This individual claimed to be a multiple system, claimed that "body is aporagender" while "fronting consciousness is nonbinary." Now, I'll be up front, I'm a cis het white male. But I honestly want to understand and support a community that is at the very least, sporadically vocal about their existence. It's easy to make fun, but it was easy to right off homosexuals in the 50s too. I'm curious then if there has been any serious work done (scholary literature, etc.) on behalf of some of the more "fringe" elements of the modern social justice movement. Do the multiples and otherkin have a case to make? I've personally never met anyone claiming one of these identities, though I do know trans people and asexuals (which is not to imply these are neccesarily accurate parallels.) Where does this leave us in a decade or more if these communities don't dry up?
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Jun 18, 2014 18:08
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Special Snowflake syndrome.
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Jun 18, 2014 18:16
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A lot of these Tumblr identities seem like unnecessary classifications. One that I've seen is demiromantic which googling gives the definition as someone who "only experiences romantic attraction after developing an emotional connection beforehand." Even if this describes a persons attraction, who cares? Why do you need this classification to be at the forefront of your identity? As far as scholarly work, most of these classifications seem very vague and don't lend themselves to any objective scientific investigation.
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Jun 18, 2014 19:06
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Gay people in the 50s had specific rights they needed recognized and particular forms of oppression which they could identify. There were legit gay rights movements well before Stonewall. The people you're describing don't seem to want anything other than to describe themselves. Even people with weird paraphilias really only want to practice them with other people who share them. I'm not actually sure what this crowd is after at all, except maybe engaging in fantasy through the internet. Do we know anything about how they live? Furries at least convene conventions where they gently caress each other in mascot costumes.
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Jun 18, 2014 19:45
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It's hard to pin down, but identity politics have spun out from specific minority groups fighting for better representation in their society that used the language of oppression to highlight the differences between them and the ruling group. That got co-opted fairly quickly by, basically, everyone who felt they had a legitimate grievance against society. You see the language used by right-wingers, by liberals, by people who claim to be "trans-ethnic" so they can gain the same kind of voice as legitimately oppressed people. Toss in a bunch academic jargon that was appropriated from the specific context of post-colonial and gender studies, and it not only dilutes the message of people who actually should have a voice, but it creates a pretty vicious backlash and it becomes pretty hard to tell who is dumb and who is not.
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Jun 18, 2014 20:45
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Jack Gladney posted:Gay people in the 50s had specific rights they needed recognized and particular forms of oppression which they could identify. There were legit gay rights movements well before Stonewall. anecdotal but the ones i know are boring people who want to feel they have some sort of intrinsic trait that saves them the work of developing a personality.
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Jun 18, 2014 20:46
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Why have we collectively decided that some going through a sex change is ok, but someone who wants to be a wolf is fair game for ridicule?
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Jun 18, 2014 21:12
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Spazzle posted:Why have we collectively decided that some going through a sex change is ok, but someone who wants to be a wolf is fair game for ridicule? Over a century of medical knowledge, for starters.
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Jun 18, 2014 21:46
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To put it differently, we know that a human can be either a man or a woman, so it's conceivable (even incredibly likely) that whatever factors make someone "feel" like one or the other (or something in between) can go haywire in certain circumstances, causing a mismatch between an individual's perception of their own gender and their biological sex. On the other hand, we know that a human being cannot be a wolf or visa versa.
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Jun 18, 2014 21:51
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Another good way to put it would be that we have thousands of years of cultural history of people being gay or transgendered, but no such history for people who believe they are wolves. There's no evidence that there is an actual physiological or psychological phenomenon for the latter beyond a need for attention or to feel unique.
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Jun 18, 2014 21:56
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Why won't you guys respect that I identify as a 9 tailed fox, with each of those tails being a plug.
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Jun 18, 2014 22:17
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Cantorsdust posted:Another good way to put it would be that we have thousands of years of cultural history of people being gay or transgendered, but no such history for people who believe they are wolves. There's no evidence that there is an actual physiological or psychological phenomenon for the latter beyond a need for attention or to feel unique. That's not strictly true. People dressing up as animals for various purposes, even if ceremonial and/or purely symbolic, has been a thing for a very long time. That still doesn't mean that we have to give the time of day to people who actually believe they are other animals on a more or less permanent basis.
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Jun 18, 2014 22:30
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PT6A posted:To put it differently, we know that a human can be either a man or a woman, so it's conceivable (even incredibly likely) that whatever factors make someone "feel" like one or the other (or something in between) can go haywire in certain circumstances, causing a mismatch between an individual's perception of their own gender and their biological sex. On the other hand, we know that a human being cannot be a wolf or visa versa. I think in a hypothetical world where transsexuals were viewed by D&D with revulsion, you could use similar arguments against them, or I suppose similar arguments for people who want to be animals. If there were surgeries that people routinely got to go wolf, I bet a large portion of the people here would defend it.
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Jun 18, 2014 22:46
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Spazzle posted:I think in a hypothetical world where transsexuals were viewed by D&D with revulsion, you could use similar arguments against them, or I suppose similar arguments for people who want to be animals. If there were surgeries that people routinely got to go wolf, I bet a large portion of the people here would defend it. Well, that's certainly a baseless speculation you've made there. Do you have anything to address the point that he made? (Though if we had evidence that most of the people undergoing said hypothetical wolf surgery experienced an improvement in their quality of life, I imagine that people would support it, but this isn't the case.)
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Jun 18, 2014 22:57
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I am legitimately trying to understand subcultures that range from amusing to baffling. It's easy to poke fun at someone that identifies as a day-glo horse, but these are evidently real people asserting apparent claims. I agree with the claim of an unclear agenda. I don't really understand the endgame for the multiple systems and the like. Some seem to want greater representation, in truth, I can't name a work of media that prominently features a demiromantic nonbinary (I would add more qualifiers here, but I am trying to take this seriously and a common gag seems to be pile on these qualifiers) character. I'm thinking there exists an alternate interpertation for Otherkin and their related "alternate consciouness", for lack of a better term, groups. It's less popular, I think because people want a scientific justification for their identity but a lot of these identities are more in line with spiritual beliefs. Furry and Otherkin aren't really orientations of body disphoria of any well understand form, but can be called cultures in their own right. What's more interesting to me is the other side of the communities, especially the "fringe queer" side. This being the evangelical asexuals, panromantic demisexuals, communities that are very concerned with asking for pronouns and identifying themselves with options other than he or she (or xe.) Aside: As an etymologist 'xe' drives me nuts. English doesn't have a non gendered pronoun, but the vernacular (at least where I live) used 'they' without even batting an eye about the question of plurality. Reappropriating or removing hate speech is great, but inventing new articles of speech strikes me as an extrordinary claim without an extrordinary proof.
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Jun 18, 2014 22:59
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ZorajitZorajit posted:I am legitimately trying to understand subcultures that range from amusing to baffling. It's easy to poke fun at someone that identifies as a day-glo horse, but these are evidently real people asserting apparent claims. I agree with the claim of an unclear agenda. I don't really understand the endgame for the multiple systems and the like. Some seem to want greater representation, in truth, I can't name a work of media that prominently features a demiromantic nonbinary (I would add more qualifiers here, but I am trying to take this seriously and a common gag seems to be pile on these qualifiers) character. You should stop thinking that people who don't claim they have the gender they were assigned have anything to do with people who think they're a horse or whatever. That would be a good first step.
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Jun 18, 2014 23:06
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Ytlaya posted:Well, that's certainly a baseless speculation you've made there. Do you have anything to address the point that he made? Do most transsexuals have an improved overall quality of life? I thought that they are discriminated against and are often targets of lots of crime.
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Jun 18, 2014 23:08
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Spazzle posted:Do most transsexuals have an improved overall quality of life? I thought that they are discriminated against and are often targets of lots of crime. So you don't know anything about this topic, but don't let that stop you from concern trolling. edit: Yes, srs and medical transition both improve quality of life and have been found to be medically necessary for transgender people seeking it. Trans people also are discriminated against. Someone saying that trans people shouldn't transition because they'll be discriminated against is much like saying gay people shouldn't come out because they'll be discriminated against. Sharkie fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 23:09
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ZorajitZorajit posted:I am legitimately trying to understand subcultures that range from amusing to baffling. It's easy to poke fun at someone that identifies as a day-glo horse, but these are evidently real people asserting apparent claims. I agree with the claim of an unclear agenda. I don't really understand the endgame for the multiple systems and the like. Some seem to want greater representation, in truth, I can't name a work of media that prominently features a demiromantic nonbinary (I would add more qualifiers here, but I am trying to take this seriously and a common gag seems to be pile on these qualifiers) character. I wonder how many of these people have heard of the Kinsey Scale? It has to be true that the vast majority of human beings do not fit completely within an absolute, binary scale, yet the vast majority of them make their peace with what they feel and do as they feel. There's nothing remarkable about the vast majority of these identity categories because they just name experiences that everyone has at one time or another. I have felt lust and I have felt deep emotional connections of multiple kinds, but who cares aside from me? Speaking personally, it's hard not to feel some contempt for these people because they by and large live lives of white, middle-class comfort and risk literally nothing because there's no functional difference between a straight or bi person and a panromantic demisexual, yet they ape the posture and language of generations of LGBT people who gave up their actual lives to be recognized. I mean, if these people can document some actual oppression beyond an occasional instance of bullying (which isn't oppression at all), then I would be willing to listen to them.
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Jun 18, 2014 23:28
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Sharkie posted:You should stop thinking that people who don't claim they have the gender they were assigned have anything to do with people who think they're a horse or whatever. That would be a good first step. Granted. I should be more clear that I don't want to conflate these communities. I think that by and large the furries have achieved a sort of parity. I can't ever recall anyone claiming oppression on the grounds they don't get to openly be a horse.
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Jun 18, 2014 23:49
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Spazzle posted:Do most transsexuals have an improved overall quality of life? I thought that they are discriminated against and are often targets of lots of crime.
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Jun 19, 2014 00:21
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It's a coping mechanism for depressed kids. That's it. It's unpopular, dispossessed kids in a lovely situation (high school) retreating to a world where they matter when they empirically do not. It has no relation to LGBT rights, except that it mocks them. Anyone who identifies as one of these ridiculous sets of identities needs a good hug from a parental figure daily and therapy to properly diagnose and treat their depression.
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Jun 19, 2014 00:26
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No one is beating up otherkin or multiple systems or preventing them from getting housing or jobs or whatever. They're not a minority like "gays in the 50s" (or today) they're bored teenagers roleplaying on the internet.
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Jun 19, 2014 00:29
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People loving love being an oppressed victim.
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Jun 19, 2014 00:52
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With regard to sex and gender "queer" identities, if LGBT status has been destigmatized in some communities to the point that people are making a fashion statement of it, I don't see how that can be anything other than a success and tribute (as long as they stay clear of bug chasing). As for "kin" and the like, people dragging fantasy into their real lives is not a new thing (see: literary fandom in general), even if the language is. I see no reason to attribute it to depression or victim complex or anything else but what it's always been, escapism. e: And just what is a "multiple system" anyway? Gazpacho fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 01:04
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Gazpacho posted:e: And just what is a "multiple system" anyway? Basically multiple personalities, complete with internal conversations with them.
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Jun 19, 2014 01:18
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Gazpacho posted:e: And just what is a "multiple system" anyway?
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Jun 19, 2014 01:18
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enbot posted:People loving love being an oppressed victim. For more evidence, look at how non-oppressed groups like "Christians in America" and "white men" love to claim they're the real victims.
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Jun 19, 2014 01:22
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It's just nerds on the internet, I wouldn't worry about it.
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Jun 19, 2014 01:33
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Pussy Cartel posted:Basically multiple personalities, complete with internal conversations with them. It's basically grown-ups with imaginary friends.
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Jun 19, 2014 01:35
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Sharkie posted:So you don't know anything about this topic, but don't let that stop you from concern trolling. A caterpillar "transitions" into a butterfly; it was one thing and then it changed state and became something else. A biological male who believes he should be a female can undergo gender reassignment surgery, but he's still a biological male except his genitals have been mutilated into the broad semblance of an orifice. He has not transitioned into a new state of being; he has only attempted to ape a semblance of it. I don't see how that's much different from a man deciding he's a wolf because he decided to wear a fursuit. It's mere impersonation. How can it be medically necessary? A transsexual is not in danger of physical harm from not undergoing gender reassignment surgery. Arguably, they would be unhappier without the surgery (this appears to be a contested topic: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth), but doing something to increase happiness does not match my definition of medical necessity. (Apparently 'medical necessity' is also an American legal term, in which case transexualism in the USA is considered medically necessary and can get public funding, but that's a separate non-philosophical answer.) Gay people coming out of the closet is not a transition in the same sense either; it's merely revealing their pre-existing sexual orientation in public. I don't see how that is comparable to somebody going under the surgeons knife to feel closer to their sexual identity.
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Jun 19, 2014 02:42
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Mukip posted:A caterpillar "transitions" into a butterfly; it was one thing and then it changed state and became something else. A biological male who believes he should be a female can undergo gender reassignment surgery, but he's still a biological male except his genitals have been mutilated into the broad semblance of an orifice. He has not transitioned into a new state of being; he has only attempted to ape a semblance of it. Transgender people don't simply "decide" to be the other gender, they are the other gender and the only thing that transitions is their gender presentation. Surgery, on genitals or otherwise, is not a necessary component of that, although some trans people may choose to undergo it.
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Jun 19, 2014 02:50
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Except fake. So multiple personalities then. 
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Jun 19, 2014 02:55
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I understand that transsexuals believe that they have a brain corresponding to the other gender and feel that they have no choice in that regard. This is considered a mental illness in most places; some doctors agree with the idea that their brains are switched up wrong. But they clearly aren't the other gender in anything but their own heads. In terms of their natural body chemicals & genitalia they are the gender they were born as.
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Jun 19, 2014 02:55
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Except fake. There's some pretty  stuff on tumblr that shows how bad it can be:
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Jun 19, 2014 02:57
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PT6A posted:Transgender people don't simply "decide" to be the other gender, they are the other gender and the only thing that transitions is their gender presentation. Is there any scientific basis for this?
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Jun 19, 2014 02:59
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goatse.cx posted:Is there any scientific basis for this? no
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Jun 19, 2014 03:02
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Mukip posted:I understand that transsexuals believe that they have a brain corresponding to the other gender and feel that they have no choice in that regard. This is considered a mental illness in most places; some doctors agree with the idea that their brains are switched up wrong. But they clearly aren't the other gender in anything but their own heads. In terms of their natural body chemicals & genitalia they are the gender they were born as. Cite your sources and define your vocabulary.
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Jun 19, 2014 03:05
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goatse.cx posted:Is there any scientific basis for this? There isn't a consensus but there are multiple studies which show that people who claim to be transgender often have brain structures similar to the gender they feel like they are rather than the gender of their physical body. Male to Female individuals with male genitals are much more likely to have a 'female' brain rather than a 'male' brain.
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Jun 19, 2014 03:09
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goatse.cx posted:Is there any scientific basis for this? Yes, studies have shown (for example) that the size of gender-specific regions in the brain in transgender people is consistent with their perceived gender instead of their biological sex. Also, like gay and lesbian people, many transgender people report knowing they were/are transgender since a very young age. There's a whole bunch of info on various studies on the Wikipedia page. Finally, in case you're going to stick with the idea that it's simply a mental illness (which I suppose you could do with homosexuality too, if you want to be a backwards prick), it shouldn't really matter in terms of treatment, because the only treatment that's been consistently shown to remove gender dysphoria is transition. While others have pointed out that transgender people often suffer discrimination and violence during/after transition, there's a fundamental difference between that sort of suffering and the internal suffering that a transgender person feels as a result of dysphoria and/or not being able to present and live as their gender. Namely, the former can be fixed by other people not discriminating against or being violent toward trans people.
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Jun 19, 2014 03:10
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