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Jun 19, 2014 22:49
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Sharkie posted:For your second, look at people whose lives are affected by bigotry in a material sense: it impacts their mental and physical health, their employment and marriage opportunities, etc. These are people it might be nice to be inclusive towards. Like, "inclusivity" isn't a very well-defined goal in and of itself - of whom are you trying to be inclusive, and to what end? Any book or film of less than infinite length is going to include some sorts of people and exclude others, so you have to prioritize, and have a reason for those prioritizations. Personally, I think it would be cool if more movies, tv shows, etc. had characters who were transgender but were presented as just you know, people, instead of caricatures. It took a while for gay people to achieve even the barest sliver of this sort of representation and there's still a longway to go. (acknowledging, of course, that those are two different issues). Aside: This is actually something I wrangled with for a while. The character in question is a major side character. The motivation was nothing more than "I see few transgender characters in this genre, perhaps I will write one." So nothing would really change if this trait weren't there. I absolutely agree that the best way is to present such a character as being normal and not call attention to this. But, if I never call attention to that character trait then it never gets brought up, and I'm off the opinion that it doesn't matter what my notes say about the character, if its not on paper it doesn't count. Which is also not to say I have a scene wherein the character declares "Look at my genitals! I think I'd prefer another option!"
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Jun 19, 2014 22:53
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WorldsStrongestNerd posted:Would any of the posters making the claim that a transgendered person has the brain structure of the gender they identify with please link to the scientific study they are referencing? Id like to go thru and read it.
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Jun 20, 2014 02:22
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edit- quoted wrong guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Brain_structure lots of links there.
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Jun 20, 2014 02:39
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T. Bombastus posted:Would any of the posters denying that claim please link to the scientific study they are referencing? That's not how it works. If someone's making a scientific claim it's absolutely on that person to support it and not the people questioning it.
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Jun 20, 2014 02:46
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I honestly think the problem is rooted in psychological framing, where research focused on what people say about themselves, rather then about how they act or behave. The problem is that you ultimately cannot test what people say about themselves: what they really think and feel is stuck inside their own head. It's not simply a matter of conscious deceit, but they could simply lack perspective or even misinterpret their own experience (and draw false comparisons with other people, for example). Taken to the anti-trans extreme, you hear people say "well you're just faking it to be a perv", but fundamentally that is based on a valid observation: I, as the other, have no way of cross-checking that what you say is true, and it would be irresponsible to simply take it on faith (because that leaves it open to abuse). So honestly, I don't think the concept of identities is useful, progressivism needs to discard it for something else. So people as elements of systemic forces, and still being agents with some predictable behaviours, reduce the model of the person to either one of those things. Individualizing systemic forces in terms of 'identities' isn't helpful and has massively backfired. rudatron fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 04:12
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rudatron posted:I honestly think the problem is rooted in psychological framing, where research focused on what people say about themselves, rather then about how they act or behave. The problem is that you ultimately cannot test what people say about themselves: what they really think and feel is stuck inside their own head. It's not simply a matter of conscious deceit, but they could simply lack perspective or even misinterpret their own experience (and draw false comparisons with other people, for example). I think that real identity politics--that is, identity politics directed at civil rights issues in the historical, lived in, public world--is very much aware of identity as something imposed. Blackness arises out of the conviction on the part of white people that there is a category called blackness that defines who you are and what you can't do or be. In America there's this category "asian" populated by people who everywhere else in the world would be racist as gently caress toward each other, yet because of their context they understand that chinese and korean are equivalent identities here. Maybe the best way to study the tumblr crowd would not be to think about their own categories, but how they behave toward them. What about looking at how teenage subcultures function to construct or define identity? Maybe these weird fuckos are more like skater punks or jocks or mods or something, embracing a really specific subculture in order to experiment with differentiating themselves from the culture and the family. There's tons of scholarship about how kids use music, or science fiction, or sports to construct an identity--the whole point of it being that they want to participate in something that belongs to them and some smaller community. They get really into it because they're using it to experiment with being an individual. If a lot of these people are just kids, maybe that's a better model for what they're doing.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:29
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Jack Gladney posted:I think that real identity politics--that is, identity politics directed at civil rights issues in the historical, lived in, public world--is very much aware of identity as something imposed. Blackness arises out of the conviction on the part of white people that there is a category called blackness that defines who you are and what you can't do or be. In America there's this category "asian" populated by people who everywhere else in the world would be racist as gently caress toward each other, yet because of their context they understand that chinese and korean are equivalent identities here. It remind me a lot more of religion than anythng else. They have their sacred cows, their chosen people, etc.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:34
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This (fronting, fake MPD, and so on, certainly not LGBT issues) is just adult diaper parties or something, but to everyone's chagrin there's now a public record of it.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:38
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Pussy Cartel posted:Neuroscience time! Thank you for that! I feel like there's so much theory and social science that's going to be completely upended in a generation or two when we understand the brain better
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Jun 20, 2014 05:06
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A lot of the "weirder" social justice blogs are trolls trying to discredit the social justice movement, for what it's worth.
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Jun 20, 2014 05:11
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ZorajitZorajit posted:Aside: This is actually something I wrangled with for a while. The character in question is a major side character. The motivation was nothing more than "I see few transgender characters in this genre, perhaps I will write one." So nothing would really change if this trait weren't there. I absolutely agree that the best way is to present such a character as being normal and not call attention to this. But, if I never call attention to that character trait then it never gets brought up, and I'm off the opinion that it doesn't matter what my notes say about the character, if its not on paper it doesn't count. Which is also not to say I have a scene wherein the character declares "Look at my genitals! I think I'd prefer another option!" Personally I think that's totally fine and is a legit way of going about writing the character. I'd encourage you to listen to and read about trans people's first-hand stories in order to see how it could come up without having them walk onstage wearing a t-shirt reading "I am transgender," though you probably already know that's important. Good for you for including transgender representation! Here's another (clumsily metaphoric) way to think of the whole "what level of inclusivity should I include" question that sidesteps the whole issue of validity: imagine that you're in the early 1960's, and you're writing a book, tv show, etc. It's pretty easy to see why including a black character would be a laudable goal, but including an Amish character would have less social import. natetimm posted:It remind me a lot more of religion than anythng else. They have their sacred cows, their chosen people, etc. Who is "they"?
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Jun 20, 2014 05:41
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Sharkie posted:Personally I think that's totally fine and is a legit way of going about writing the character. I'd encourage you to listen to and read about trans people's first-hand stories in order to see how it could come up without having them walk onstage wearing a t-shirt reading "I am transgender," though you probably already know that's important. Good for you for including transgender representation! The really weird and extreme tumblr folks with the fictives, multiples, etc. It's like they're all their own little personal Jesus.
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Jun 20, 2014 05:51
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SALT CURES HAM posted:A lot of the "weirder" social justice blogs are trolls trying to discredit the social justice movement, for what it's worth. I hear a lot of people saying this but I've never seen any actual proof. Then again I don't spend any time whatsoever reading crazy people's tumblr pages so I doubt if I could tell a troll from a genuine whackjob.
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Jun 20, 2014 05:57
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evilweasel posted:That's not how it works. If someone's making a scientific claim it's absolutely on that person to support it and not the people questioning it.
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Jun 20, 2014 07:04
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:I hear a lot of people saying this but I've never seen any actual proof. Then again I don't spend any time whatsoever reading crazy people's tumblr pages so I doubt if I could tell a troll from a genuine whackjob. "Riley," one of the louder and bigger nuts (also responsible for The Arkh Project, a Kickstarter scam that was supposed to be a JRPG with the entire cast being transgendered POCs who enslaved cis white people), frequently calls people niggers on Livejournal and says a lot of open racist stuff on there, if I remember correctly. The bulk of the other really really crazy people on Tumblr are just pretty obvious Poes, like the autistic Korean flying dog in a white girl's body and whatnot.
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Jun 20, 2014 08:26
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SALT CURES HAM posted:"Riley," one of the louder and bigger nuts (also responsible for The Arkh Project, a Kickstarter scam that was supposed to be a JRPG with the entire cast being transgendered POCs who enslaved cis white people), frequently calls people niggers on Livejournal and says a lot of open racist stuff on there, if I remember correctly. There are plenty of weeaboos with social justice blogs on tumblr that think Imperial Japan did nothing wrong.
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Jun 20, 2014 08:42
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:I hear a lot of people saying this but I've never seen any actual proof. Then again I don't spend any time whatsoever reading crazy people's tumblr pages so I doubt if I could tell a troll from a genuine whackjob. Yeah, SA scared me off from ever reading tumblr just from the sheer amount of vitriol that comes from this website. Then again, me not intentionally exposing myself to the site is probably why I am confused it gets so much hate. It's basically a more popular livejournal and livejournal was full of hosed up people but tumblr actually has terrorists and governments use it and poo poo. It's fascinating if nothing else but shouldn't be used as any meaningful barometer. That'd be treating deviantart as the end all be all for art careers. E: Riley sounds nuts, though. And yet I am not going to start judging trans people based from Riley, that's stupid.
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Jun 20, 2014 08:49
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on the left posted:There are plenty of weeaboos with social justice blogs on tumblr that think Imperial Japan did nothing wrong. Getting angry at someone for drawing an anime slightly too light-skinned and promoting a "game" that treats black trans people enslaving whites as a good thing, then going around calling black people dumb niggers and repeating Stormfront talking points on a different website, takes an astounding amount of cognitive dissonance if it's not a troll. e: god no I'm not saying to judge trans people based on them, I'm using them as an example of crazy right-wingers trying to disrupt the social justice movement. Trans people and 90% of social justice people are cool.
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Jun 20, 2014 08:53
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SALT CURES HAM posted:
Yeah, sorry if I sounded accusatory towards anyone in particular. I have Trans people in my life who became post-op before 80% of this forum was born and are quite the opposite of whatever is being presented here. They've had families and full careers and are like most tax paying citizens but are happier than the average adult because the head matches the body. I wish we could get along on SA without it dissolving into a bubble of unfunny ironic humor.
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Jun 20, 2014 09:09
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SALT CURES HAM posted:A lot of the "weirder" social justice blogs are trolls trying to discredit the social justice movement, for what it's worth. I know my voice isn't the most beloved in this little echo chamber, but I thought I'd lend some anecdotal evidence to shore up the sandy foundation of SALT CURES HAM's claim. The long and short of it is: He may be right. Once or twice a week I make up a new low content tumblr pushing the envelope of identity philosophy and politics. I've done everything from trans-ni**er, trans-raptor, gungagender, and a host of extremely insensitive and absolutely anti-Semitic themed climate change denial blogs. I do this strictly to entertain myself and others with a similar sense of humor, naturally. Argumentum ad Absurdum was good enough for the greeks, and according this prostitute I frequent (The one with the 5 o' clock shadow and an Adams apple that looks like she swallowed a pig fetus) those people invented anal sex. Therefore it's good enough for me. So a lot of those crazier and more out their tumblr types may just be fake. They're probably total plants! Complete fabrications if you will. And please don't begrudge the apparent incongruity of my staunch conservative beliefs and my frequenting of manly looking prostitutes. I do this strictly to proselytize the important aspects of their souls eternal damnation should they not accept Christ. And to get my balls completely drained for less than the cost of a steak dinner at the Golden Corral. And while we're at it please also don't begrudge me this insane belief in Christ. A lot of my people died just so we could pray in public. We were the original oppressed white people in this country. God bless.
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Jun 20, 2014 09:23
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Sorry for the big woolly question, but I have a woolly brain to match. So I'm beginning to grasp the argument against identity politics, that it's fractuous and self-absorbed in a way, especially in how it's featured in the crazier fringes of Tumblr. It goes without saying that certain groups (like LGBT, for instance, disabled people, or non-whites in the US, to toss out some examples) fight the good fight and deserve support. Banging on about 'identity politics subverting the class struggle!!' to those guys is being a massive rear end in a top hat. I'm struggling with certain concepts however. Like this statement: rudatron posted:Individualizing systemic forces in terms of 'identities' isn't helpful and has massively backfired. Can you elaborate on what you mean here? I kind of get the argument you make, that because tumblr-type people don't know themselves well enough and can't interpret their thoughts and feelings about themselves properly (no one can), they are doing themselves a disservice when they define who they are from what labels they have stuck to themselves in the attempt to understand (and work against) systemic forces. And identity labels should not be used to construct personhood. But how have identity politics backfired? Have you thought of any alternatives? And aren't these extreme tumblr people trolls, a bunch of kids with active imaginations, and a tiny nucleus of saddos trying to out-goodthink each other anyway? That is, they are ultimately irrelevant to actual social justice pursuits. Or do you think identity politics are an issue in real social justice? How so? Etc.
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Jun 20, 2014 09:34
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SALT CURES HAM posted:A lot of the "weirder" social justice blogs are trolls trying to discredit the social justice movement, for what it's worth. I don't think anyone should give any credence to claims that "oh everyone on our side who is bad is actually just a plant from the opposition".
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Jun 20, 2014 15:08
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evilweasel posted:I don't think anyone should give any credence to claims that "oh everyone on our side who is bad is actually just a plant from the opposition". On the other hand, it does happen, and it's been verified.. The whole #endfathersday thing was started as a 4chan prank, then picked up by people who used it to bash all feminists. Here's another article about this stuff, and there's a twitter hashtag associated with exposing trolls. For example, NWS http://i.imgur.com/zlsysiR.jpg?1 Somebody fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 15:49
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evilweasel posted:I don't think anyone should give any credence to claims that "oh everyone on our side who is bad is actually just a plant from the opposition". Sure, but there's really no reason to take anything you read on the internet from a quasinonymous source at face value unless you really want it to be true - either because there's someone else out there who shares your desire to be a toaster or because it just proves in your mind that all of your political opponents actually are crazy. Like when people get really pissy about SJWs and how they never accomplish anything outside of the internet... which begs the question as to why people get so angry over SJWs in the first place, if it's all just internet faffery?
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Jun 20, 2014 15:53
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We had a demisexual in the feminism thread once. Also getting paranoid and thinking that every person in your movement with differing opinions is a false flag operation is a really bad idea. Even if there are trolls, it seems like that mentality is going to lead to everyone calling each other secret 4chan people as soon as a disagreement comes up. Also yeah obviously take everything you read on the internet with a grain of salt that's just common sense
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Jun 20, 2014 16:28
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:Also getting paranoid and thinking that every person in your movement with differing opinions is a false flag operation is a really bad idea. Even if there are trolls, it seems like that mentality is going to lead to everyone calling each other secret 4chan people as soon as a disagreement comes up. That's what the hashtag is actually for. (Or maybe that's just what they want you to think  )Trolling tumblr seems a bit like shooting fish in a barrel to be honest. Most of them basically come pre-trolled. Which is the attraction, I guess.
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Jun 20, 2014 16:52
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:Also getting paranoid and thinking that every person in your movement with differing opinions is a false flag operation is a really bad idea. Even if there are trolls, it seems like that mentality is going to lead to everyone calling each other secret 4chan people as soon as a disagreement comes up. Also yeah obviously take everything you read on the internet with a grain of salt that's just common sense This is true. Personally if I read something stupid I just ignore it and move on (may not apply to somethingawful.com forums), and I don't really see it get brought up except in response to someone saying "sjws are all crazy" in response to someone saying something innocuously progressive, because as has been pointed out "sjw" has lost all meaning except as internet shorthand for liberal (though I'm sure dumb witch hunts do happen, and as Prav said that's part of the goal). I wasn't really disputing what evilweasel said so much as just pointing out that it does happen. Also thirding this: Popular Thug Drink posted:there's really no reason to take anything you read on the internet from a quasinonymous source at face value unless you really want it to be true - either because there's someone else out there who shares your desire to be a toaster or because it just proves in your mind that all of your political opponents actually are crazy.
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Jun 20, 2014 17:09
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Sharkie posted:On the other hand, it does happen, and it's been verified.. The whole #endfathersday thing was started as a 4chan prank, then picked up by people who used it to bash all feminists. Here's another article about this stuff, and there's a twitter hashtag associated with exposing trolls.  Please tell me that "freebleeding" is entirely their fabrication and that it does not exist in any way.
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Jun 20, 2014 19:16
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Sharkie posted:For example, NWS http://i.imgur.com/zlsysiR.jpg?1 Don't spoilertag NWS images: they're still loaded even when spoilered. Always link them.
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Jun 20, 2014 19:27
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Talmonis posted:
Entirely their fabrication. That's what that was about. evilweasel posted:Don't spoilertag NWS images: they're still loaded even when spoilered. Always link them. Thanks for the heads up, and the edit.
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Jun 20, 2014 20:12
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rudatron posted:I honestly think the problem is rooted in psychological framing, where research focused on what people say about themselves, rather then about how they act or behave. The problem is that you ultimately cannot test what people say about themselves: what they really think and feel is stuck inside their own head. It's not simply a matter of conscious deceit, but they could simply lack perspective or even misinterpret their own experience (and draw false comparisons with other people, for example). Yeah as a complete non psych expert I feel like there is way way way too much popular psychology noise in culture/political culture that needs to be examined that is probably having a crap feedback relationship with the harder research. I can only really speculate how much the internet has helped or brought this feedback relationship into light or affected it.
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Jun 21, 2014 00:39
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evilweasel posted:I don't think anyone should give any credence to claims that "oh everyone on our side who is bad is actually just a plant from the opposition". I'm not saying literally everyone who is a crazy SJ person is a plant, just that there's trolls among them, and my guesstimate is that there's more trolls loudly saying stupid and horrible poo poo than genuine idiots doing so. Also, a lot of such crazy SJ blogs legitimately do push slightly reworded right-wing views (the obsession with cultural appropriation, in many cases, has the logical conclusion of society being entirely separated along racial/cultural lines- the exact thing that a lot of neo-Nazis want) so it's a fairly believable assertion.
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Jun 21, 2014 11:00
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Except that for every horrible troll there is somebody, somewhere going "this person is right."
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Jun 21, 2014 14:41
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Except that for every horrible troll there is somebody, somewhere going "this person is right." Oh no, then there's two of them.
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Jun 21, 2014 17:53
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SALT CURES HAM posted:I'm not saying literally everyone who is a crazy SJ person is a plant, just that there's trolls among them, and my guesstimate is that there's more trolls loudly saying stupid and horrible poo poo than genuine idiots doing so. Cultural appropriation has always struck me as a particularly buzzwordy bit of SJW rhetoric. There's plenty of valid criticism to unpack there, with lots of bad representation in broad-audience media. But it's also so easy to deconstruct a work for "appropriation." I'm strongly of the opinion that inclusivity is a higher goal than elimination of less-than-perfect depictions. Last, and I think what frustrates me most about the whole conversation is that there are either no clear goal, or the goal is like you said, actually kind of evil. I think audiences are smart enough to rightly call out the minstrel shows from inclusivity.
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Jun 21, 2014 21:57
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When I've dealt with "cultural appropriation," it has tended to be along the lines of white people stealing artwork from native people, then telling them that a bunch of white dudes know more about their culture than they do.
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Jun 21, 2014 21:58
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Gazpacho posted:With regard to sex and gender "queer" identities, if LGBT status has been destigmatized in some communities to the point that people are making a fashion statement of it, I don't see how that can be anything other than a success and tribute (as long as they stay clear of bug chasing). From what I've seen, Tumblr transgenders actually tend to be pretty hostile to transitioning or transitioned transgenders if they disagrees with the Tumblr kiddies in any way, especially when it comes to dysphoria. It's getting to the point where Tumblr transgenders are turning a real issue into a club for know-it-all teens and undergrads. If you want to join the smart-kids club, all you need to do is get a huge side cut, dye your hair pink or blue, demand that people online call you "bunself" or "reiself", and you're now a part of the progressive elite that laughs at the plebs! Who cares if you're making a mockery of real transgender people and their issues; those trannies should just suck it up because the new Enlightenment is going to happen at any moment and will be lead by a bunch of dorky teens and college undergrads! Basically, I wouldn't be surprised if several of the Tumblr transgenders were actually transphobic themselves, simply because of how they treat people that are or have actually transitioned. They're using transgenderism as the new Asperger's; something to make them look smart and better than everyone else.
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Jun 21, 2014 22:50
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Hodgepodge posted:When I've dealt with "cultural appropriation," it has tended to be along the lines of white people stealing artwork from native people, then telling them that a bunch of white dudes know more about their culture than they do. Or turning that artwork into cut-rate underwear.
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Jun 21, 2014 23:00
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Hodgepodge posted:When I've dealt with "cultural appropriation," it has tended to be along the lines of white people stealing artwork from native people, then telling them that a bunch of white dudes know more about their culture than they do. The stuff I'm talking about is when people say things like "learning a new language is cultural appropriation" or "watching movies made by non-white people is cultural appropriation" or "eating at a Chinese restaurant is cultural appropriation." There's sane examples of it, and they're not what I'm talking about.
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Jun 21, 2014 23:00
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