Alternative Identities, et. al.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Alternative Identities, et. al.

Mukip: Jan 27, 2011; by Reene

Sharkie posted:

So you don't know anything about this topic, but don't let that stop you from concern trolling.

edit: Yes, srs and medical transition both improve quality of life and have been found to be medically necessary for transgender people seeking it. Trans people also are discriminated against. Someone saying that trans people shouldn't transition because they'll be discriminated against is much like saying gay people shouldn't come out because they'll be discriminated against.

A caterpillar "transitions" into a butterfly; it was one thing and then it changed state and became something else. A biological male who believes he should be a female can undergo gender reassignment surgery, but he's still a biological male except his genitals have been mutilated into the broad semblance of an orifice. He has not transitioned into a new state of being; he has only attempted to ape a semblance of it.

I don't see how that's much different from a man deciding he's a wolf because he decided to wear a fursuit. It's mere impersonation.

How can it be medically necessary? A transsexual is not in danger of physical harm from not undergoing gender reassignment surgery. Arguably, they would be unhappier without the surgery (this appears to be a contested topic: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth), but doing something to increase happiness does not match my definition of medical necessity. (Apparently 'medical necessity' is also an American legal term, in which case transexualism in the USA is considered medically necessary and can get public funding, but that's a separate non-philosophical answer.)

Gay people coming out of the closet is not a transition in the same sense either; it's merely revealing their pre-existing sexual orientation in public. I don't see how that is comparable to somebody going under the surgeons knife to feel closer to their sexual identity.

# ¿ Jun 19, 2014 02:42

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 15:34

Mukip: Jan 27, 2011; by Reene

I understand that transsexuals believe that they have a brain corresponding to the other gender and feel that they have no choice in that regard. This is considered a mental illness in most places; some doctors agree with the idea that their brains are switched up wrong. But they clearly aren't the other gender in anything but their own heads. In terms of their natural body chemicals & genitalia they are the gender they were born as.

# ¿ Jun 19, 2014 02:55

Mukip: Jan 27, 2011; by Reene

Sharkie posted:

Except medical science and more importantly trans people themselves have decided that transition is the best approach. If you have some philosophical qualms about it, or just think it's icky, that's your prerogative, but to act like it's the same thing as teenagers pretending to be wolves or whatever just makes you seem like you don't know what you're talking about. PT6A and Mercury_Storm had the patience to explain the details better than I did.

The guy wearing a fursuit might be happier that way too; it doesn't make him a wolf-man. I find the posts made by others in this thread to be credible, although the subject does not appear to be nearly as settled as you say when it comes to the wellbeing of post-op transexuals.

# ¿ Jun 19, 2014 03:33

Mukip: Jan 27, 2011; by Reene

Nevvy Z posted:

Do you have any evidence to back this claim? Do you know of alternative therapies that none of the people in this thread or the trans thread have ever heard of?

Or do you just find the whole thing icky?

Well, this report suggests that post-op transexuals have an increased risk of suicide: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939

quote:

RESULTS:

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8-4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8-62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9-8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0-3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

quote:

Conclusion

This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered.

This media report suggests they are not effective: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

So clearly, the debate hasn't been settled at all.

# ¿ Jun 19, 2014 03:51

Mukip: Jan 27, 2011; by Reene

Sharkie posted:

Cool let's look at what their findings were:

So trans people have a higher risk of suicide than people who aren't trans. This we know because, surprise, living in a society that is very discriminatory against you isn't healthy. The report doesn't link it causally to srs as you seem to be implying. Read that conclusion once again: they're not advocating "stop doing srs," they're advocating "perform srs and follow-up care." I'm also interested to hear if you have some alternative therapy that no one has heard of.

The report itself doesn't advocate for or against SRS specifically; it simply says that there's no evidence that having an op solves any of their problems. The report does say that special attention should be given to post-op transsexuals, but presumably that's because their suicide rate is so high, not because the report is coming out in favour of the operations.

I was willing to entertain the idea for a while, but all the arguements in favour of gender reassignment surgery appear to be emotional appeals.

Here's another interesting article from a doctor who stopped doing these types of operations:
http://www.firstthings.com/article/2004/11/surgical-sex

quote:

Dr Paul Mc.Hugh
I think the issue of sex-change for males is no longer one in which much can be said for the other side. But I have learned from the experience that the toughest challenge is trying to gain agreement to seek empirical evidence for opinions about sex and sexual behavior, even when the opinions seem on their face unreasonable. One might expect that those who claim that sexual identity has no biological or physical basis would bring forth more evidence to persuade others. But as I�ve learned, there is a deep prejudice in favor of the idea that nature is totally malleable.

Without any fixed position on what is given in human nature, any manipulation of it can be defended as legitimate. A practice that appears to give people what they want�and what some of them are prepared to clamor for�turns out to be difficult to combat with ordinary professional experience and wisdom. Even controlled trials or careful follow-up studies to ensure that the practice itself is not damaging are often resisted and the results rejected.

Mukip fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Jun 22, 2014

# ¿ Jun 22, 2014 01:05

Mukip: Jan 27, 2011; by Reene

SALT CURES HAM posted:

e: also jesus gently caress, how about let people decide for themselves whether SRS is right for them instead of giving it a blanket yes or no? It helps some people and doesn't help others.

Well, it receives public funding for a start. So if there's no evidence that SRS actually accomplishes anything then it should probably be de-funded at least.

# ¿ Jun 22, 2014 01:12

Mukip: Jan 27, 2011; by Reene

You're right, my description there is pretty bad.

# ¿ Jun 22, 2014 01:46

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 15:34

Mukip: Jan 27, 2011; by Reene

Gazpacho posted:

This isn't a thread about reassignment surgery and you didn't read what I gave you to read.

I did miss your post the first time around, sorry. I'll make a new thread if I want to continue with this.

# ¿ Jun 22, 2014 02:57

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Alternative Identities, et. al.