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Charlotte Hornets posted:Steroids = anabolic steroids in this context. Steroids are just chemical compounds and all steroids are not anabolic steroids, therefore not all of them have an effect on the endcrine system. Jesus, are we really talking about hay fever remedies (corticosteroids) now? Well it seemed a few people didn't understand that millions of people do use steroids every day and are not harmed by them and were confused by this. So yeah, we did have to go there.
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Jul 4, 2014 23:57
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Ramadu posted:Well it seemed a few people didn't understand that millions of people do use steroids every day and are not harmed by them and were confused by this. So yeah, we did have to go there. We've also got someone pointing out the dangers of corticosteroids which seems about as relevant as talking about the dangers of heroin addiction. Although I'm sure someone's tried to get all swole while treating their eczema because people are dumb. e: I misread you. This thread doesn't seem the right place to address drugs that aren't typically thought of as performance enhancing though, I'd agree. Grittybeard fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Jul 5, 2014 |
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Jul 5, 2014 00:06
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Ramadu posted:Well it seemed a few people didn't understand that millions of people do use steroids every day and are not harmed by them and were confused by this. So yeah, we did have to go there. Why even bring up corticosteroids when we are obviously talking about anabolic steroids. Like, what was the point of that post?
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Jul 5, 2014 00:14
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Grittybeard posted:e: I misread you. This thread doesn't seem the right place to address drugs that aren't typically thought of as performance enhancing though, I'd agree. well no one was, until random people started talking about coffee and asthma medicine as if the safety of those things somehow invalidates the arguments against much more serious drugs circulating in sport
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Jul 5, 2014 00:21
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Ramadu posted:All of those effects seem like they would be useful to making an athlete better. Are you just unaware that every drug has side effects or something silly? Effects like cataracts, hypertension and osteoperosis sure are useful for sports, I agree
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Jul 5, 2014 00:24
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Byolante posted:Effects like cataracts, hypertension and osteoperosis sure are useful for sports, I agree At least I'm not the only one who is incapable of reading what people are saying correctly.
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Jul 5, 2014 00:30
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This thread was going so well. 
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Jul 5, 2014 00:48
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So it's pretty much a given that a poo poo ton of athletes are doping in La Liga, Premier League, etc.... but what about lower leagues? poo poo like the Tippeligaen, African leagues, or the MLS? Is doping cheap enough for guys making like $40,000 to regularly acquire?
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Jul 5, 2014 01:18
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joshtothemaxx posted:So it's pretty much a given that a poo poo ton of athletes are doping in La Liga, Premier League, etc.... but what about lower leagues? poo poo like the Tippeligaen, African leagues, or the MLS? Is doping cheap enough for guys making like $40,000 to regularly acquire? It's cheap enough for highschool kids.
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Jul 5, 2014 01:29
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Grittybeard posted:We've also got someone pointing out the dangers of corticosteroids which seems about as relevant as talking about the dangers of heroin addiction. I think it has its place in the conversation, but obviously needs to be clearly stated if you're talking about corticosteroids or anabolic if there's a mixture of discussion. I mean, wasn't one of the, if not the major, reason Ribery didn't get called up to France because of some 40 injections of corticosteroids over the course of his season at Bayern?
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Jul 5, 2014 02:40
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joshtothemaxx posted:So it's pretty much a given that a poo poo ton of athletes are doping in La Liga, Premier League, etc.... but what about lower leagues? poo poo like the Tippeligaen, African leagues, or the MLS? Is doping cheap enough for guys making like $40,000 to regularly acquire? At these levels it would be players doing it personally, instead of the entire team doping through a club doctor. I don't think its particularly hard or expensive to do though. In the UK at least, importing steroids for personal use is legal. It would be extremely dumb for an athlete to do but it wouldn't exactly be hard for someone to get their mate to buy it
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Jul 5, 2014 07:51
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Sour Grapes posted:It's cheap enough for highschool kids. This.
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Jul 5, 2014 10:04
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in 99/100 cases, every single athlete who you have ever admired is a drugs cheat; bolt, federer, nadal, armstrong, messi, james, phelps etc, all of them are cheats I know its not exactly relevant but you never get to be the best in your sport without a gently caress load of drugs
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Jul 6, 2014 00:47
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There are guys who compete in amateur cycling events that are on a cocktail of chemicals. Never underestimate how easy it is for people to get this stuff.
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Jul 6, 2014 07:47
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I was on a track scholarship at uni, and even at that level there were a significant number of people I came into contact with who were taking PED's. I wouldn't go so far as to say universities themselves were involved in the process, but during my time doing so I was approached by more than one sympathetic doctor with ties to the uni who wanted to offer their "support." Sometimes money isn't even an issue.
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Jul 6, 2014 11:38
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Skinty McEdger posted:I was on a track scholarship at uni, and even at that level there were a significant number of people I came into contact with who were taking PED's. I wouldn't go so far as to say universities themselves were involved in the process, but during my time doing so I was approached by more than one sympathetic doctor with ties to the uni who wanted to offer their "support." What dissuaded you?
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Jul 6, 2014 14:41
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joshtothemaxx posted:So it's pretty much a given that a poo poo ton of athletes are doping in La Liga, Premier League, etc.... but what about lower leagues? poo poo like the Tippeligaen, African leagues, or the MLS? Is doping cheap enough for guys making like $40,000 to regularly acquire? I would also like to know the answer to this. I wonder if its why you see some players make a move to a big club and not really get any better, but other players go to Bayern or Real Madrid and suddenly step their game up to the next level, did they see a talented player who hadn't been doping and realise they could get even more out of them? Or the same for say Ozil going to Arsenal and then turning to comparative poo poo, especially with Arsene making comments about players he's signed seeming like they'd been doping at previous clubs.
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Jul 6, 2014 16:30
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Skinty McEdger posted:I was on a track scholarship at uni, and even at that level there were a significant number of people I came into contact with who were taking PED's. I wouldn't go so far as to say universities themselves were involved in the process, but during my time doing so I was approached by more than one sympathetic doctor with ties to the uni who wanted to offer their "support." It doesn't even have to be sanctioned. I'd say about 60% of the guys I played junkyard basketball with were on steroids. Several times games stopped because one of the guys rolled up with a shipment and people went over to part it out. Almost always talking about were to get different poo poo too. Their gym habits seemed non existent too but whatever. Before anyone argues yeah I think they were trying to get swole and not get good at basketball but that stuff was everywhere.
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Jul 6, 2014 16:54
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Sour Grapes posted:What dissuaded you? I think there's generally two type of people on Sports Scholarships, the people who were on them to compete in their sport first and foremost, and those people who use the talents that they have in a sport to be able to get an education that they might not otherwise been able to afford. I was very much in the second camp, and I think when it came down to it that was the big reason why I didn't want to do anything that could have consequences for my health or funding, being particularly aware that even though at the time testing wasn't occurring that much that if you failed a test or there was ever suspicion upon you that you could lose that money quickly. Though I should probably stress that just being in the second camp didn't mean you wouldn't take anything. A track scholarship for example wasn't a guarantee of funding across a period of time, you had to continue to show continued application across that time span which was normally measured in your performances. If you found yourself on the bubble performance wise the temptation was there to do something.
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Jul 6, 2014 17:22
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Bogan Krkic posted:I would also like to know the answer to this. I wonder if its why you see some players make a move to a big club and not really get any better, but other players go to Bayern or Real Madrid and suddenly step their game up to the next level, did they see a talented player who hadn't been doping and realise they could get even more out of them? Or the same for say Ozil going to Arsenal and then turning to comparative poo poo, especially with Arsene making comments about players he's signed seeming like they'd been doping at previous clubs. I know a former manager of a lower league english club, and his captain at the time, and they both told me that (as far as they were aware) nobody in that league (league 1 at the time) was doping. They said testing was not uncommon, but not exactly rigorous, so there was always room for doubt. There's no real financial gains to be made from doping at that level, so why take the risk? is how they put it to me.
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Jul 6, 2014 23:20
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Sharing more anecdotal stuff, outside of stuff like taking a couple of sudafed or a decongestant before a game I never saw anyone nor heard of anyone doping during my competitive hockey days. I was never at the highest echelon of the sport for my age group, though some guys I played with eventually made it to the top. I'm sure it goes on at higher levels but I think the bigger problem drug-wise in hockey (and maybe football as well) is using painkillers to get around injuries. THAT I both saw regularly and experienced firsthand and I have no doubt that a lot of lifelong chronic pain/injury results from it. Oh, and the concussions thing is great also.
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Jul 7, 2014 01:52
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Oxygen vector doping would give you an immense advantage in hockey. There is simply too much money involved not to do it. Guys playing into their 40's is also a big sign.
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Jul 7, 2014 01:55
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Yeah I wouldn't have trouble believing that, although at the same time I wouldn't mind if the NFL/NHL went after painkillers first (which they absolutely won't if they go after anything). Is that a big problem in soccer/baseball/basketball/whatever else? I'd assume it's there to some extent with anyone dealing with an injury.
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Jul 7, 2014 02:26
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I've been interested in the medicine behind doping for a while, but haven't really spent too much time looking at the specific regimens. Seeing that doping regimen as a cancer doctor who prescribes some of these medications regularly is simultaneously depressing and impressive. Awesome thread Loving Africa Chaps.
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Jul 7, 2014 03:40
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stickyfngrdboy posted:I know a former manager of a lower league english club, and his captain at the time, and they both told me that (as far as they were aware) nobody in that league (league 1 at the time) was doping. They said testing was not uncommon, but not exactly rigorous, so there was always room for doubt. There's no real financial gains to be made from doping at that level, so why take the risk? is how they put it to me. That makes sense, thanks
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Jul 7, 2014 04:11
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Residency Evil posted:Seeing that doping regimen as a cancer doctor who prescribes some of these medications regularly is simultaneously depressing and impressive. I would be interested to know how some of these drugs are used in treating cancer and what the side effects in these situations are.
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Jul 7, 2014 04:26
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stickyfngrdboy posted:I know a former manager of a lower league english club, and his captain at the time, and they both told me that (as far as they were aware) nobody in that league (league 1 at the time) was doping. They said testing was not uncommon, but not exactly rigorous, so there was always room for doubt. There's no real financial gains to be made from doping at that level, so why take the risk? is how they put it to me. That's bollocks, the lower down you are the more you have to gain and the less likely you are to get tested. Average wages for english leagues (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23923904) Premier League: £25,000 to £30,000 a week. Top earners: £250,000 Championship: £4,000 to £5,000 a week. Top earners £8,000 to £9,000 League One: £1,700 to £2,500 a week League Two: £1,300 to £1,500 a week By doping and getting bought by a club in the next tier you can easily double your wages. When the reward/risk balance is that huge i very much doubt there's no one doing it. People seem interest by how much it costs. I'm not too familiar with individual regimes but i've started looking and will hopefully have some examples with how much the costs to put it in context.
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Jul 7, 2014 13:10
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How much consent do the players have individually when it comes to doping? How are the players approached about this? What happens if say a player at a club without a doping program is bought by one that does and now they want to put him on the juice? Do they have the option of opting out or are they just fed a bunch of lies blah blah blah and kept mostly in the dark about everything?
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Jul 7, 2014 13:57
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African AIDS cum posted:Oxygen vector doping would give you an immense advantage in hockey. There is simply too much money involved not to do it. Guys playing into their 40's is also a big sign. What is oxygen vector doping and how is it particularly beneficial to hockey players? I googled it but I'm not smart enough to parse all of these science journals. Are there any other drugs that would be of particular interest to hockey? I would assume anything that speeds healing of course, and maybe anything that extends anaerobic performance? Also, there have always (well, at least since the 70s) been a handful of hockey players that played at elite levels into their very late 30s/early 40s. Sometimes guys don't even hit their peak ability until 35+. And...Gordie Howe of course. That being said, these guys are pretty few and far between...the typical ability curve for a pro hockey player though is to peak at roughly 26-29 and then bottom out at maybe 37-38. Does that suggest that maybe guys like Howe, Johnny Bucyk, Joe Sakic, Chris Chelios, etc, were using PEDs, or at least using them more effectively than the rest of the league?
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Jul 7, 2014 16:10
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Oxygen vector doping is altering the blood so it can carry more oxygen. So you can have longer/more intense shifts and still be going full speed at the end of games. Chelios looked like a big clen lover as well and for millions with no risk of getting caught why wouldn't you
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Jul 7, 2014 16:37
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African AIDS cum posted:Chelios looked like a big clen lover as well and for millions with no risk of getting caught why wouldn't you What makes someone 'look like a clen lover' aside from being crazy lean, which I don't ever recall Chelios being? Just seems like Clen would be a strange choice as there isn't a huge advantage in having a big power/weight ratio, and there are a ton of easier to get/use bronchodilators.
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Jul 7, 2014 20:41
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JFairfax posted:I would be interested to know how some of these drugs are used in treating cancer and what the side effects in these situations are. The main one for actually treating cancer is anastrozole, an aromatase inhibitor that we use in post-menopausal women with breast cancer to decrease the risk of cancer recurrence (Estrogen is kind of like a fuel for many breast cancers). Side effects we most commonly see are joint pain, hot flashes, and they've also been associated with a decrease in bone density. I haven't used anastrozole in men as it's not really used often in adult male oncology. To me at least, the most surprising thing seeing all of the endocrine drugs beyond steroids.
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Jul 7, 2014 21:21
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bewbies posted:What is oxygen vector doping and how is it particularly beneficial to hockey players? I googled it but I'm not smart enough to parse all of these science journals. Are there any other drugs that would be of particular interest to hockey? I would assume anything that speeds healing of course, and maybe anything that extends anaerobic performance? Doping in football goes as far back as the 50s at least, so I'd be very surprised if there weren't some hockey players doping since the 70s. Whether it's those specific players or not, it's hard to say, but staying really good really late into your career, past the age where other players would have retired, let alone still be able to play at the top level, is a red flag for sure. It may just be that the player is a super athletic specimen of humanity, but it may also be that they're doped to their eyeballs. From this many decades removed it's almost impossible to tell.
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Jul 7, 2014 22:03
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Loving Africa Chaps posted:That's bollocks, the lower down you are the more you have to gain and the less likely you are to get tested. Yeah but how many players go up a league without the team they're already at gaining promotion?
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Jul 7, 2014 22:32
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Article talking about the history of doping in football (soccer). http://www.4dfoot.com/2013/02/09/doping-in-football-fifty-years-of-evidence/
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Jul 8, 2014 07:53
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stickyfngrdboy posted:Yeah but how many players go up a league without the team they're already at gaining promotion? Rickie Lambert went from non league to playing for Liverpool in the space of 5 seasons.
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Jul 8, 2014 08:18
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serious gaylord posted:Rickie Lambert went from non league to playing for Liverpool in the space of 5 seasons. Do you think he's doping?
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Jul 8, 2014 08:31
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Bogan Krkic posted:Do you think he's doping? I do.
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Jul 8, 2014 08:39
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serious gaylord posted:I do. Do you think he was doping while playing non league?
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Jul 8, 2014 09:06
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Bogan Krkic posted:Do you think he was doping while playing non league? While he probably is now he's playing top flight, I think the reason he went from non-league up was he stopped going out on the piss all the time
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Jul 8, 2014 09:12
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