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Xandu
Feb 19, 2006


It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
Not doing an OP, just post about it in here instead of elsewhere.

New Division posted:

I wouldn't completely rule out a ground invasion of the Gaza Strip for this go-around, even if it's only a temporary occupation. A lot of Netanyahu's allies are baying for some serious blood this time.

I think Lieberman said that yesterday, even before they were found.

THREAD RULES: IF YOUR POST ADDS SOMETHING TO THE THREAD AND POSITIVELY CONTRIBUTES, IT'S FINE. IF IT DOESN'T, YOU MIGHT GET PROBATED.

edits: links to like all of the articles posted in the thread

Blowdryer posted:

http://parlanceprovince.wordpress.com/ip-table-of-contents/

Reposting this, an aggregation of articles and points made throughout this entire thread separated into topics. I'd add more to this post but I'm about to take off on a plane and I just wanted to put this out there for anyone just coming in who doesn't have the time to read 450 pages.


Links to books

The Easy Rider posted:

For an in-depth debunking of the common claim that "Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity", and that they walked away from an offer for a Palestinian state, Clayton E. Swisher's The Truth About Camp David is a good read, compiling a number of interviews with insiders in the negotiations.

Saree Makdisi's Palestine Inside Out: An Everyday Occupation is a good account of life in the West Bank for Palestinians under occupation, and helps explain why the occupation is creating militancy among the Palestinians. Despite the barbarity of military actions like the one currently devastating the Gaza Strip, the day-to-day oppression of the Palestinians is equally responsible for the state of the conflict.

For an account of the settlers, their historic and contemporary role in Israeli politics, and the effects they have on the West Bank, Zertal and Eldar's Lords of the Land: The War Over Israel's Settlements in the Occupied Territories, 1967-2007 is an extremely good account of the effects they have had on the conflict, their role in Israeli domestic politics, and so on.

For an account of the history of the conflict, there are two great books on the topic. The first, David Fromkin's A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East provides a history of European intervention in the region. While not super-useful for understanding the conflict in general, it provides some important background information as to how we arrived at this point that is fundamental to understanding some of the nuances of the conflict, and it reads a lot like the script for a Coen Brothers dark (dark, dark) comedy. The second, Avi Schlaim's The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World provides information that is absolutely essential to understanding the conflict. If you are going to read only a single book on the topic, it should be this one. An updated edition is coming out in October, though, so you might want to get your copy from the library in the meantime. If you're interested in some information disputing the "Where was the Palestinians FLAG?!?" bullshit that crops up from time-to-time, you may be interested in George Antonius' 1939 book The Arab Awakening: The Story of the Arab National Movement, which provides an account of Arab nationalism that predates Israel's foundation.

Norman Finkelstein has written a number of really good books on the topic, but This Time We Went Too Far: Truth and Consequences of the Gaza Invasion might be of particular interest; it compiles information from a number of sources on the topic, most importantly the UN-commissioned Goldstone Report.

I've seen the anti-Palestinian camp casually dismiss Robert Fisk, but Pity the Nation: The Abduction of Lebanon was an absolutely incredible account of the invasion of Lebanon in my opinion, and it debunks a number of common myths surrounding the attack.

This is ignoring some of the more "classic" texts on the subject, from Chomsky and Said in particular, but it's a good starting point for anyone looking to have a solid grasp of what's happening.

EDIT: I didn't include him because Sushi in Yiddish already mentioned his work, but for those of you who are unfamiliar with Joe Sacco, his 'graphic journalism' is incredible stuff. Topical to Israel/Palestine are Palestine and Footnotes from Gaza, both of which are incredible reads and landmarks in comics journalism.

Xandu fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Aug 8, 2014

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DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin
What would be the point of Hamas doing this and not claim responsibility?

Xandu
Feb 19, 2006


It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
I wouldn't be surprised if they did it, but I'd like to see some actual evidence, since Israel was itching to attack them as soon as they reunited with Fatah.

They admitted they took Shalit within like a day.

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe
The State of Israel should be brought to an end. Not the people, just the state.

Elotana
Dec 12, 2003

and i'm putting it all on the goddamn expense account

DarkCrawler posted:

What would be the point of Hamas doing this and not claim responsibility?
Yes, this is what strikes me as unusual. When Hamas kidnaps Israelis they usually crow about it and try to ransom them. They don't kill them and leave them in a ditch somewhere to be found under ambiguous circumstances.

I don't doubt that the most likely scenario is that they were killed by Palestinians of some type or another but Israel should be under a lot more pressure to produce proof of actual Hamas involvement as opposed to some rando criminals.

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?



Yeah I think this has to have something to do with the fact that the Israeli gov't doesn't like the idea of a Hamas/Fatah reunion, since it presents a stronger front than the two separate groups. Granted even together they have little power compared to the IDF, but it's something.

also the Israelis are still pissed at Fatah for getting Palestine recognized at the UN.

New Division
Jun 23, 2004

I beg to present to you as a Christmas gift, Mr. Lombardi, the city of Detroit.
The amount of blood lust these kidnappings and murder have whipped up among the Israeli public is pretty frightening. Netanyahu is going to be under some pressure to satiate the desire for revenge. It will be interesting to see tomorrow if the IDF is mobilizing. If not, then we may just be in for another round of the ongoing bombardment of Gaza.

Xandu
Feb 19, 2006


It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Elotana posted:

Yes, this is what strikes me as unusual. When Hamas kidnaps Israelis they usually crow about it and try to ransom them. They don't kill them and leave them in a ditch somewhere to be found under ambiguous circumstances.

I don't doubt that the most likely scenario is that they were killed by Palestinians of some type or another but Israel should be under a lot more pressure to produce proof of actual Hamas involvement as opposed to some rando criminals.

I think you're right. If they were really killed soon after the kidnapping (it couldn't have been immediately since one of them called the police soon after), it kind of screams amateur abductors who realized they got in over their heads.

I don't know though, they've been repeatedly saying they have unequivocal proof for a week now, but haven't actually said what it is. Maybe they will now that it's over.

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?



If they actually did you would think they would say something before dropping bombs. More than likely it's BS

illrepute
Dec 30, 2009

by XyloJW
It wouldn't surprise me if Hamas was behind it, but it's hella suspect that the Netanyahu government has been pushing the Hamas line since day 1, up to the point where even the administration response to finding the teenagers dead and offering condolences specifically named Hamas as the perpetrators, like they feel the need to keep pushing it at every opportunity and beyond. If they have proof, they should offer it.

ReV VAdAUL
Oct 3, 2004

I'm WILD about
WILDMAN

Xandu posted:

I think you're right. If they were really killed soon after the kidnapping (it couldn't have been immediately since one of them called the police soon after), it kind of screams amateur abductors who realized they got in over their heads.

I don't know though, they've been repeatedly saying they have unequivocal proof for a week now, but haven't actually said what it is. Maybe they will now that it's over.

Just wait till you see Netanyahu's props for the press conference. Let's just say you might be seeing a standee of the leader of a certain Gaza Strip based organisation...

Xandu
Feb 19, 2006


It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

FlamingLiberal posted:

If they actually did you would think they would say something before dropping bombs. More than likely it's BS

Well, maybe. Bombing does a hell of a lot more to appease domestic outrage than releasing evidence and having a debate.

FlamingLiberal
Jan 18, 2009

Would you like to play a game?



Xandu posted:

Well, maybe. Bombing does a hell of a lot more to appease domestic outrage than releasing evidence and having a debate.
Right but they could have released the evidence and then bombed. Instead it's just bombing.

Ms Adequate
Oct 30, 2011

Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling



Elotana posted:

Yes, this is what strikes me as unusual. When Hamas kidnaps Israelis they usually crow about it and try to ransom them. They don't kill them and leave them in a ditch somewhere to be found under ambiguous circumstances.

I don't doubt that the most likely scenario is that they were killed by Palestinians of some type or another but Israel should be under a lot more pressure to produce proof of actual Hamas involvement as opposed to some rando criminals.

If Palestinians killed them then it's okay to kill a boatload of Palestinians in revenge.
:israelsay:

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe
Settler false flag.

I have literally as much proof for my theory as Bibi does for his.

illrepute
Dec 30, 2009

by XyloJW
It's also beyond the pale that already the amount of suffering inflicted by Israel in searching for three teenagers and now punishing (???) Hamas has already been double the deaths among Palestinians and is definitely going to keep climbing into at least the teens.

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

FlamingLiberal posted:

If they actually did you would think they would say something before dropping bombs. More than likely it's BS

It wouldn't surprise me if Israel had a program like NSA has, and can't reveal information without endangering their source.

Ofaloaf
Feb 15, 2013

Was there even a token effort at a joint criminal investigation with the Palestinians, or was this all just calls for blood and saber rattling from the beginning? I only caught wind of this story within the last few days.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth
I'm not surprised at all, yet still sickened by this poo poo.

illrepute
Dec 30, 2009

by XyloJW

Ofaloaf posted:

Was there even a token effort at a joint criminal investigation with the Palestinians, or was this all just calls for blood and saber rattling from the beginning? I only caught wind of this story within the last few days.

Take a guess, then a drink. I'm taking a break from poo poo today so I'll be taking a shot for every airstrike I see reported in Gaza.

Dolash
Oct 23, 2008

aNYWAY,
tHAT'S REALLY ALL THERE IS,
tO REPORT ON THE SUBJECT,
oF ME GETTING HURT,


My Imaginary GF posted:

It wouldn't surprise me if Israel had a program like NSA has, and can't reveal information without endangering their source.

If that's an acceptable way to justify a bombing campaign they might as well claim whatever they like, proof or not, and say they can't reveal their sources so they can get away with anything - wait, ohhhhh....

Xandu
Feb 19, 2006


It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Ofaloaf posted:

Was there even a token effort at a joint criminal investigation with the Palestinians, or was this all just calls for blood and saber rattling from the beginning? I only caught wind of this story within the last few days.

quote:

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Tuesday that he appreciated PA President Mahmoud Abbas’s words on the kidnapping of the three Israeli teens in Saudi Arabia, labeling them “important.”
...
Abbas strongly condemned the kidnappings last Wednesday at a conference in Saudi Arabia. “We are coordinating with them [Israel] to reach them,” Abbas said of Eyal Yifrah, Naftali Fraenkel and Gil-Ad Shaer. “They are human beings and we care about the lives of human beings.”

Abbas said that those behind the kidnapping “want to destroy us,” adding that they would be held accountable for their deed regardless of their identity.

The initial response from the Prime Minister’s Office was muted, however, with a statement put out saying Abbas’s words would be judged by actions on the ground.

Abbas has since come under a barrage of criticism from within the Palestinian camp for his comments and the PA’s continued security cooperation with Israel. And Netanyahu was criticized by Justice Minister Tzipi Livni and Finance Minister Yair Lapid for not being more charitable toward Abbas’s words.

The Insect Court
Nov 22, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
It's been reported that it appears the teens were murdered just a few hours after they were kidnapped. Assuming that's true it's interesting, since it makes the abduction look less like an attempt to grab hostages to trade for Palestinian prisoners and more of an attempt to re-ignite a broader conflict.

John_A_Tallon
Nov 22, 2000

Oh my! Check out that mitre!

SedanChair posted:

The State of Israel should be brought to an end. Not the people, just the state.

Any legitimate state is its people.

ReidRansom
Oct 25, 2004


SedanChair posted:

Settler false flag.

I have literally as much proof for my theory as Bibi does for his.

Anything's possible.


SedanChair posted:

The State of Israel should be brought to an end. Not the people, just the state.

But basically this.



John_A_Tallon posted:

Any legitimate state is its people.

I don't see anyone calling Israel legitimate.

ANIME AKBAR
Jan 25, 2007

afu~
There's no way this was authorized by anyone in the HAMAS leadership, it makes absolutely no loving sense. It could have been rogue HAMAS members though.

Noun Verber
Oct 12, 2006

Cool party, guys.

John_A_Tallon posted:

Any "legitimate" state is its people.

Captain_Maclaine
Sep 30, 2001

Every moment I'm alive, I pray for death!

The Insect Court posted:

It's been reported that it appears the teens were murdered just a few hours after they were kidnapped. Assuming that's true it's interesting, since it makes the abduction look less like an attempt to grab hostages to trade for Palestinian prisoners and more of an attempt to re-ignite a broader conflict.

Or, you know, it could have just been a street-level jacking gone horribly wrong.

Sergg
Sep 19, 2005

I was rejected by the:

Were the 3 slain Israeli teenagers in regular Israel proper when kidnapped or were they settlers who were illegally trespassing in the West Bank?

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe

Sergg posted:

Were the 3 slain Israeli teenagers in regular Israel proper when kidnapped or were they settlers who were illegally trespassing in the West Bank?

The latter. They were hanging out on a street corner trying to hitchhike as that is apparently a popular way to rub their free movement in Palestinians' faces.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

SedanChair posted:

The State of Israel should be brought to an end. Not the people, just the state.
There are millions of well-armed Israeli Jews who are not interested in hearing that. So how to you expect that to happen?

Makes a lot more sense to pressure the State of Israel to withdraw from the West Bank and accede to Palestinian statehood therein. There's international consensus on that, and the EU is making headway with it. There is none of that for dismantling Israel as a state.


Captain_Maclaine posted:

Or, you know, it could have just been a street-level jacking gone horribly wrong.

Also not all of Hamas is 110% behind working with Fatah, who had just recently been suppressing them in the West Bank, and who, to their mind, had been collaborating with the Zionist oppressor for two decades now.

In any event, just because this is clearly in Israeli interest doesn't mean it was instigated by Israelis. They just needed a trigger, if this hadn't come up, a rocket from the Gaza Strip killing somebody, whether it was a response to a previous Israeli bombing or not, would have done the same work.

SedanChair posted:

The latter. They were hanging out on a street corner trying to hitchhike as that is apparently a popular way to rub their free movement in Palestinians' faces.

No, that is what happens when you need to move around a place that has poor public transportation service. Getting from Tel Aviv and Jerusalem to some of these settlements is easy, getting around them apparently is difficult if you don't have your own vehicle. I don't see how it's useful to make them out as more monstrous than actual actions are, it's not a productive way of engaging with people whose views/actions you want to change.

Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

by Smythe

Absurd Alhazred posted:

There are millions of well-armed Israeli Jews who are not interested in hearing that. So how to you expect that to happen?


Their deaths in combat, clearly.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP
Give Palestinians Israeli citizenship and it will end on its own.

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe

Absurd Alhazred posted:

There are millions of well-armed Israeli Jews who are not interested in hearing that. So how to you expect that to happen?

Hopefully more and more Jewish kids will become completely disillusioned with racism and support a one-state solution.

quote:

No, that is what happens when you need to move around a place that has poor public transportation service. Getting from Tel Aviv and Jerusalem to some of these settlements is easy, getting around them apparently is difficult if you don't have your own vehicle. I don't see how it's useful to make them out as more monstrous than actual actions are, it's not a productive way of engaging with people whose views/actions you want to change.

I have no hope of changing the minds of settlers in the West Bank. They're fanatics.

Mc Do Well
Aug 2, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

computer parts posted:

Give Palestinians Israeli citizenship and it will end on its own.

Jewish State

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

computer parts posted:

Give Palestinians Israeli citizenship and it will end on its own.

Who is going to be giving them that citizenship? I don't see that ending in anything but a brutal civil war that Palestinians will lose because Israelis are better armed. I would like to see less borders in some future time, but right now I don't see Israeli Jews accepting a State where Jews aren't in charge. If it has to be non-democratic, they'll take that route. Hell, they are taking that route with the Occupation right now, the only reason there's a semblance of the whole thing being democratic is that even according to Israeli law, the West Bank is under military occupation.

ETA:

SedanChair posted:

Hopefully more and more Jewish kids will become completely disillusioned with racism and support a one-state solution.
That won't happen while the Occupation is in existence. I sure as hell don't see it with Jewish kids now.

quote:

I have no hope of changing the minds of settlers in the West Bank. They're fanatics.
Some of them are fanatics, some of them have just had the issues conveniently hidden from their day-to-day lives. If you go to the bigger settlements like Ariel, you'd think it was part of Israel, in that you don't have to go through a checkpoint and there's not too many Palestinians around. If you pressure them they will move. They only moved there for the cheap housing anyway. It'll get harder and harder the longer occupation survives, though.

Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jul 1, 2014

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

McDowell posted:

Jewish State

Like I said, it ends on its own (by definition).

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Who is going to be giving them that citizenship? I don't see that ending in anything but a brutal civil war that Palestinians will lose because Israelis are better armed. I would like to see less borders in some future time, but right now I don't see Israeli Jews accepting a State where Jews aren't in charge. If it has to be non-democratic, they'll take that route. Hell, they are taking that route with the Occupation right now, the only reason there's a semblance of the whole thing being democratic is that even according to Israeli law, the West Bank is under military occupation.

That's effectively what's happening right now just drawn out.

The states of Palestine that exist now (either Gaza + West Bank or each individually) are not tenable states. They're Indian reservations.

computer parts fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jul 1, 2014

The Insect Court
Nov 22, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

Captain_Maclaine posted:

Or, you know, it could have just been a street-level jacking gone horribly wrong.

Which is why one of them called the police to say they were being kidnapped.

illrepute
Dec 30, 2009

by XyloJW

Absurd Alhazred posted:

That won't happen while the Occupation is in existence. I sure as hell don't see it with Jewish kids now.

These attitudes are actually shifting. I don't have any articles on hand, but I remember a few years back there was a flurry of articles about how Western Jewish people were growing disaffected with Israel due to the occupation (at least in part).

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Sergg
Sep 19, 2005

I was rejected by the:

Much as I am loathe to condone the murder of teenagers, this is an inescapable consequence of the social injustice of Apartheid when you try to de-facto annex another nation-state's territory and marginalize its citizens through the slow process of settler encroachment.

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