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mcmagic posted:We do know for a fact that Hamas linked groups have kidnapped people in that area before though. it's not CRAZY to assume that's what happened here. It is crazy to assume something with no proof and demand vengeance for it.
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Jul 1, 2014 15:55
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mcmagic posted:We do know for a fact that Hamas linked groups have kidnapped people in that area before though. it's not CRAZY to assume that's what happened here.
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Jul 1, 2014 15:55
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I've seen reference to a phone call made by one of them after disappearing to confirm they had been kidnapped but nobody knows by whom Israeli defense minister has been saying some insane things about building more settlements in retaliation and some settlers have set up tents they are claiming are the start of new settlements This whole thing already feels stage managed - lots of reporting about the families and funerals and very little about the israeli raids but I suppose there weren't any journalists about for those.
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Jul 1, 2014 15:59
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:I think it's too quick to jump to that conclusion. In the past hasn't Hamas claimed responsibility? Usually, not every single time but usually there's some wink wink 'I'm not saying we did it but boy are we sure glad this happened and I bet whoever really did it is super cool and right about this' kinda thing when there isn't a proper one. So far all I can read Hamas has done is, when asked to condemn something they may have not done or had any knowledge of went 'uh no, why would we'.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:00
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Can you post these sources because so far the 'teens for hostages' thing has been nothing but a theory floated by people wanting to blame Hamas for it. So far, if I understand right, all we know in actual facts is they died shortly after being reported missing, which basically means it could be anything from a robbery gone bad to a random act of violence. quote:The prevailing assessment within the defense establishment is that the kidnappers, at least at first, only saw one of the hitchhikers, perhaps Yifrach, who did not know Shaar and Fraenkel. Only once the kidnappers’ Hyundai i35 came to a stop did the kidnappers realize that they would be outnumbered by their hostages within the small confines of the car. This may be what changed the nature of the crime from kidnapping to murder, security sources suggested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gTL1Xd-0L8
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Jul 1, 2014 16:16
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So to be clear the actual hard facts are: There was a car There was a call saying 'we've been kidnapped' The kids are dead now Not seeing where Hamas, trading for hostages, or anything like that is being proven.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:19
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Usually, not every single time but usually there's some wink wink 'I'm not saying we did it but boy are we sure glad this happened and I bet whoever really did it is super cool and right about this' kinda thing when there isn't a proper one. So far all I can read Hamas has done is, when asked to condemn something they may have not done or had any knowledge of went 'uh no, why would we'. To clarify, it might be smart of them to condemn it if they didn't do it (hell, it might be smart of them to condemn it even if they did do it), since it's an easy way to segue into "and I expect an Israeli condemnation is also forthcoming for the Palestinians killed so far as part of the 'investigation'?" Similar to asking for condemnations but not condemning in kind, arguments that Hamas does not respect Israel's right to exist are somewhat ironic considering Israel doesn't think Hamas should exist either, and you'd be hard pressed to get Israeli leaders to loudly support the existence of an independent Palestinian state on Palestinian lands either. Demands to lay down arms and foreswear violence as a precondition to talks are also unfair considering Israel will never do the same. Dolash fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 16:24
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Tatum Girlparts posted:It is crazy to assume something with no proof and demand vengeance for it. When did I "demand vengeance?"
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Jul 1, 2014 16:34
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Tatum Girlparts posted:So to be clear the actual hard facts are: As far as the suspects go, Israel is tearing the West Bank apart looking for these two guys, who just happened to go missing right after the abductions and killings. Both guys served time in Israeli prisons, and one's brother was killed by Israeli troops a few years ago. (Per the NY Times) And one guy is apparently a member of Hamas. So nothing firm but ...  I think it's a pretty safe bet, though. The question is whether they did it under their own initiative or whether this was another example of Hamas attempting a kidnapping for operational reasons, as they do from time to time.
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Jul 1, 2014 16:34
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mcmagic posted:When did I "demand vengeance?" Stop attempting to pretend Israel is logical at all in this. Bibi is a flailing imbecile murderer. Nonsense fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 16:35
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mcmagic posted:When did I "demand vengeance?" I think that probably means the Israeli press/government ministers who are very much calling for vengeance
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Jul 1, 2014 16:36
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Omi-Polari posted:Oh yeah, it's not proven, these are just allegations and suspicions. Gee, why would Palestinians go into hiding after a crime even if they didn't commit it? It's not like Israel regularly kills massive amounts of unrelated people for the crimes of others...
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Jul 1, 2014 16:44
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Besides, it's not like there is any shortage of independent palestinian militant groups. Kinda is an inevitability when Israel has deliberately weakened the PA to the point where it can't even effectively police its own territory.
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Jul 1, 2014 17:20
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Only if you count the Negev, which was largely uninhabited.  TheRamblingSoul posted:Ohhhhhhh! So THAT'S why American Neocons and Israeli assholes get along so well together politically!
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Jul 1, 2014 17:21
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mcmagic posted:We do know for a fact that Hamas linked groups have kidnapped people in that area before though. it's not CRAZY to assume that's what happened here. "It's not crazy to assume this happened" is in no way a sufficient response to "what kind of evidence do you have?"
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Jul 1, 2014 17:36
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fade5 posted:Hindsight is an absolute bitch, you couldn't get a map that good for the Palestinians right now if you tried. that compromise would likely have imploded quickly vvvv please stick around to defend israels response to these murders as proportional and appropriate Real hurthling! fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 17:59
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What I find fascinating about the DD Che Brigade is that even a thread about murdered Israeli teenagers is seen as a forum to express rabid, shrieking hatred of Israel. You guys are the online equivalent of Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:07
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Real hurthling! posted:that compromise would likely have imploded quickly And whose fault would that have been?
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Jul 1, 2014 18:08
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Livewire42 posted:And whose fault would that have been? the idiots that drew ugly borders and filled them with a few hundred thousand jewish crusader terrorists with ptsd
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Jul 1, 2014 18:10
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Real hurthling! posted:the idiots that drew ugly borders and filled them with a few hundred thousand jewish crusader terrorists with ptsd As opposed to all the surrounding Arab states that declared war and attacked as soon as Israel accepted the UN proposed borders?
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Jul 1, 2014 18:14
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Livewire42 posted:As opposed to all the surround Arab states that declared war and attacked as soon as Israel accepted the UN proposed borders? wow all those armies must have been a real threat to poor innocent israel.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:18
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TheImmigrant posted:What I find fascinating about the DD Che Brigade is that even a thread about murdered Israeli teenagers is seen as a forum to express rabid, shrieking hatred of Israel. More Palestinians have been killed in the search for the settlers than settlers were murdered. That isn't even to mention the vastly greater number of Palestinians killed than Israelis in the wider I/P conflict. Also: https://twitter.com/bencnn/status/484015536217403393/photo/1
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Jul 1, 2014 18:18
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Real hurthling! posted:wow all those armies must have been a real threat to poor innocent israel. Thank the Lord that they weren't.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:19
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TheImmigrant posted:What I find fascinating about the DD Che Brigade is that even a thread about murdered Israeli teenagers is seen as a forum to express rabid, shrieking hatred of Israel. Israelis do a pretty good job of spitting venom at their fellow Israelis on a daily basis without people who are correct, that you disagree with, muddying the waters and daring to humanize the Palestinians. It is you who is shrieking.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:20
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Nonsense posted:Israelis do a pretty good job of spitting venom at their fellow Israelis on a daily basis without people who are correct, that you disagree with, muddying the waters and daring to humanize the Palestinians. It is you who is shrieking. Dont' forget that TheImmigrant is a black gay Israeli or whatever he needs to be to try and shame posters not up to speed on his gimmick.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:24
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Cerebral Bore posted:Nobody has said much of anything about Israeli socity, which is multifaceted with many opposing forces and so on and so forth. People have said things about the State of Israel, which has had a remarkably consistent policy of loving over the Palestinians pretty much since its founding. This is what I was responding to: ReV VAdAUL posted:The pretense put forward by Zionists that Israelis are losing faith in the 'peace process' is made mockery of by A cursory glance at Israeli actions. For instance the reaction to the Oslo accords, a great deal for Israel (if it wanted any kind of negotiated settlement) and a lovely one for Palestine yet the Israeli reaction was to assassinate the leader who negotiated the historic accord and quickly abandon all commitment to it. Saying that Israel assassinated Rabin is to conflate society with State with policy. He's not the only person in this thread to do this, just a more ridiculous one. But case in point: GuyinCognito posted:It sucks that 3 white kids died while burning down olive trees in a pricetag attack but their parents didnt love them. They just wanted to use the kids to create a greater Israel. A state for white supremacists. Apparently blind hatred is okay if it's directed at Israeli Zionist white supremacists. Add your own negative descriptor to the word salad and violent fantasies, I sure as hell don't hear enough of those from right-winged Israelis I argue with. Rogue0071 posted:I like how the mantra of "Israel's right to exist" is bandied about so much that people talk about whether Palestinians should accept it as a precondition for negotiations without critically considering it at all. Israel is an apartheid state. Apartheid states do not have a "right to exist", they should be destroyed and replaced with a new state or states. Palestinians should have no obligation to accept the maintenance of apartheid and discrimination against Arab-Israelis (which Israel's "right to exist as a Jewish state" entails). Other than occupying the West Bank, East Jerusalem, blockading Gaza, and unilaterally annexing the Golan Heights, which are big, I admit, Israel is not the worst member of the UN. It would just be a discriminatory ethnic democracy, which has a right to exist inasmuch as the international community is willing to mostly allow internal agitation to change it. See Saudi Arabia, any of the Emirates, North Korea, etc. That is why the push to the Green Line is such a big deal, not because they give a lot of poo poo that Arabs don't get the same kind of land allocation or job opportunities as Jews, or because their history keeps getting erased, or any number of other discriminatory and heinous policies, inside the internationally recognized borders of Israel. "Right to exist" may sound like a mantra to you, but it's a reasonable starting point if you're asking a country to negotiate with any other. Since the PLO has already done this, though, it's not a real barrier; instead, "recognize as a Jewish state" is the stupid spoiler Netanyahu keeps rambling about, and which Abbas will not accept, for obvious reasons. It's one thing to accept a country, another thing to condone everything that it does, especially what you disagree with, off the bat. Livewire42 posted:As opposed to all the surrounding Arab states that declared war and attacked as soon as Israel accepted the UN proposed borders? The more I think of it, the less it made sense to pretend that there was any possibility for a separate Arab country in Palestine. Palestinian leadership had already been completely broken in the 1936-1939 Arab Revolt. It would have made much more sense to simply allocate those territories to existing countries directly. That way the armies would have had clear borders to go up to, and internationally, the status of the various portions would have been a lot more clear-cut. Instead there was this passing back and forth of the buck over those territories, and a lot of diplomatic ammunition against Egypt and Jordan for holding occupied lands, equivocated with Israeli expansion beyond the partition lines. The refugees would have also had an easier status as displaced citizens rather than being displaced from a hostile country/non-existent one in the imagined future return. Real hurthling! posted:wow all those armies must have been a real threat to poor innocent israel. It sure seemed so at the time to migrants from Central and Eastern Europe who felt this was just a large-scale pogrom, as well as the Holocaust refugees armed and trained to fight for a country of their own. Fortunately for the Zionists, Ben Gurion realized that military force would be essential, and made the Hagana and its various militias a priority in his planning, exactly for this type of scenario, and they had been making connections for a long time, including by siding with the Allies in WWII, so they were able to overpower the other militaries coming in. But this kind of anachronistic thinking, where you project Israels clear, undoubtable, ridiculous primacy in Middle Eastern military prowess to the past is what makes it difficult to understand how people thought then, and how that reflects forward to how things are now. You can trace back the primacy of the IDF in Israeli politics to that era, if you understand the why, but you won't if you think Israel was always top-dog without any doubt or question.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:27
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Enjoy the circle jerk.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:31
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TheImmigrant posted:What I find fascinating about the DD Che Brigade is that even a thread about murdered Israeli teenagers is seen as a forum to express rabid, shrieking hatred of Israel. Just more bodies in the pile.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:33
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A circle jerk is preferable to mindless egoist contrarianism.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:33
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Popular Thug Drink posted:A circle jerk is preferable to mindless egoist contrarianism. Not on a 'debate' forum.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:36
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Couple of posts from a few pages back, but whatever: xrunner posted:A state for the Kurds and a state for the Roma is as divisive and problematic as a state for the French or a state for the Norwegians. Look at the tensions that develop when you draw states around ethnic and cultural boundaries. Riots, hate, yeah. What we need are secular, multicultural states finding the way forward. Israel is an apartheid state, based on dubious religious identity, horrifically oppressing a group of people who could learn as much from the Israelis as they could teach. It's time for a secular one state solution. Seriously. An alternative to this viewpoint is that when you draw state lines containing multi-ethnic boundaries where the ethnicities barely tolerate each other at best, you get something between 1990 Iraq and 2014 Iraq. It's all good to posit that you need multiculturalism but what happens when that fails? Let's remember that we sank a trillion dollars into enforcing multiculturalism onto Iraq, too, while we were at it. DarkCrawler posted:It not at all a stretch to describe those who founded Israel and drove the process behind it as "white", or the upper class that continued to dominate Israeli society for decades afterwards. They were mostly Ashkenazis, speaking European languages and having a Western education. The North African/Middle Eastern migration happened after the founding of Israel, when the Arab nations expulsed the Jews as a reaction. The people who founded Israel were pale skinned Jews whose attempts to "become white" and assimilate had ended with a huge amount of their relatives in gas chambers less than five years earlier - in fact, a huge proportion of the ones who tried it the hardest stayed in Germany and died first. Describing them as white when they were explicitly denied whiteness at the point of a gun at the time is ridiculous.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:39
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Absurd Alhazred posted:
so just to be clear, you want to stress to me that israel's victories were uncertain and perhaps impressive and your proof is that they planned really hard in advance with western powers and set up their government to be run by literal terroists.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:40
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TheImmigrant posted:Not on a 'debate' forum. So are you just going to be a smug rear end in a top hat who comes in every few pages to say witty one liners yet not post anything of worth because you consider yourself above the discussion at hand?
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Jul 1, 2014 18:44
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Real hurthling! posted:so just to be clear, you want to stress to me that israel's victories were uncertain and perhaps impressive and your proof is that they planned really hard in advance with western powers and set up their government to be run by literal terroists. Things were very much in doubt for the nascent Israel for much of the first war. Pasha Glubb's Arab Legion nearly annihilated the Israelis at Latrun.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:47
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Alexzandvar posted:So are you just going to be a smug rear end in a top hat who comes in every few pages to say witty one liners yet not post anything of worth because you consider yourself above the discussion at hand? That's pretty much his thing, yes.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:48
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TheImmigrant posted:Not on a 'debate' forum. when this place focuses on 'debate' it is literally the worst forum in forums dot something awful dot com. the disco is only good for newsposts and current event summaries (Brown Moses, that one cool guy from the Venezuela thread), but if you love incredibly tiresome arguments supported with pages of pedantic bullshit then boy oh boy is this the forum for you! ok games is still worse
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Jul 1, 2014 18:49
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Real hurthling! posted:the idiots that drew ugly borders and filled them with a few hundred thousand jewish crusader terrorists with ptsd BTW I hope we can all agree that hating the British Empire for everything is always justifiable.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:51
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There is a difference between right and wrong. The Israeli military stomping around the West Bank and engaging in collective punishment in the past few days is wrong, I'd argue. But if one is to condemn that, then you need to condemn the murder of the teenagers as well. And you should probably condemn Hamas which openly celebrated the kidnappings as a means to bargain for Palestinian prisoners on their official website: http://www.hamasinfo.net/ar/default...scOH2NogjIf4%3d TheImmigrant posted:What I find fascinating about the DD Che Brigade is that even a thread about murdered Israeli teenagers is seen as a forum to express rabid, shrieking hatred of Israel.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:57
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Omi-Polari posted:There is a difference between right and wrong. The Israeli military stomping around the West Bank and engaging in collective punishment in the past few days is wrong, I'd argue. But if one is to condemn that, then you need to condemn the murder of the teenagers as well. And you should probably condemn Hamas which openly celebrated the kidnappings as a means to bargain for Palestinian prisoners on their official website: Exactly. Those shrieking colonialism ignore that half the Israelis are Mizrahim/Sefardim. They have no place to return to.
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Jul 1, 2014 19:03
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Omi-Polari posted:There is a difference between right and wrong. The Israeli military stomping around the West Bank and engaging in collective punishment in the past few days is wrong, I'd argue. But if one is to condemn that, then you need to condemn the murder of the teenagers as well. And you should probably condemn Hamas which openly celebrated the kidnappings as a means to bargain for Palestinian prisoners on their official website:
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Jul 1, 2014 19:04
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