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My Imaginary GF posted:It wouldn't surprise me if Israel had a program like NSA has, and can't reveal information without endangering their source. If that's an acceptable way to justify a bombing campaign they might as well claim whatever they like, proof or not, and say they can't reveal their sources so they can get away with anything - wait, ohhhhh....
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Jul 1, 2014 00:59
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SedanChair posted:The fighting prowess and inclinations of the modern Israeli are greatly exaggerated. Years of soft living and occupation duty mean that they don't know what a real war is. They certainly don't have any of the toughness of the plucky little band of terrorists who founded the country. And the average American can best be described as "butterball", but that doesn't mean they can't maintain the most powerful military on the planet. Nobody's throwing an actual army at Israel, especially while they have America's backing, which will probably last for at least the rest of our lives. Israel isn't really changeable by brute military force.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:57
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I don't really see American support for Israel eroding at any point, unless Israel does something monumentally stupid. Like, Israel could declare the West Bank and Gaza integral parts of Israel tomorrow and send in their army to drive every Palestinian out of the new borders and I can't imagine anything more than hand-wringing and empty diplomatic threats from America - and the extremely pro-Israel factions would just double-down anyway. Without losing bedrock American support, not just from one administration, Israel will remain untouchable.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:31
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e X posted:What is the actual reason behind the settlements? I don't mean the realpolitik for their existence, but how are they soled to the public. If Israel accepts, or at least acknowledges, the Palestinian territory, how do they explain the building of settlements. Including internationally. I don't think I've ever heard a justification given for the building of settlements that is meant to be palatable to the international community. "This is our land, the Palestinians are squatters" might work internally to rustle up the necessary settlers, but whenever people talk about the settlements outside of Israel they only discuss the realpolitik - whether the settlements will be built or not - and never even bring up why they're being built or whether they should be built. It's almost like everyone knows there isn't actually an argument in favor of the settlements, so they quietly skip discussing it altogether in favor of discussing how it will be used as a bargaining chip in negotiations.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:17
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GuyinCognito posted:Limited bombings of military sites and full sanctions is the only solution. This is a really weird statement to me because it's half an impractical fantasy. You're willing to handwave the solution all the way up to "American society has a seismic political shift, turns on Israel and is willing to use its military might to contain it" but not so far as, say, "Israel's society has a seismic political shift and votes in tolerant and reconciling politicians". The actual solution would probably be a gradual shift in American politics away from blind support of Israel, born out of growing sympathy for the plight of the oppressed Palestinians, since that's at least somewhat tied to the real-world starting position. If that actually happened and an American administration signaled at the UN that it's willing to join a boycott or cut off Israel's foreign aid that'd probably be enough of a shift that actual bombing would be unnecessary. I mean, maybe Israel would have a hardline administration at that point that would only go down kicking and screaming, but we're getting further away from the starting point. Everything depends on America propping up Israel as a client state, even moreso than actions within Israel and the Occupied territories or within the rest of the Middle East. Skipping straight to "and then the Israelis get a taste of their own medicine, only from a more humane and restrained power who shows them what a proper occupation would look like!" is just wankery.
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Jul 1, 2014 13:20
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Usually, not every single time but usually there's some wink wink 'I'm not saying we did it but boy are we sure glad this happened and I bet whoever really did it is super cool and right about this' kinda thing when there isn't a proper one. So far all I can read Hamas has done is, when asked to condemn something they may have not done or had any knowledge of went 'uh no, why would we'. To clarify, it might be smart of them to condemn it if they didn't do it (hell, it might be smart of them to condemn it even if they did do it), since it's an easy way to segue into "and I expect an Israeli condemnation is also forthcoming for the Palestinians killed so far as part of the 'investigation'?" Similar to asking for condemnations but not condemning in kind, arguments that Hamas does not respect Israel's right to exist are somewhat ironic considering Israel doesn't think Hamas should exist either, and you'd be hard pressed to get Israeli leaders to loudly support the existence of an independent Palestinian state on Palestinian lands either. Demands to lay down arms and foreswear violence as a precondition to talks are also unfair considering Israel will never do the same. Dolash fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 16:24
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What's the state of the bombing? Is this still just a lot of shouting and the odd bomb dropped on mostly empty locations with the occasional casualty, or are they ramping up to Cast Lead 2?
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Jul 2, 2014 00:51
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^^^^The idea, as I've heard it, isn't so much to "win" as it is to make sure that nobody wins, thus making beating you in the first place undesirable.DarkCrawler posted:The...the lie that most Palestinian refugees have been born in their current countries and should be given citizenship by the Arab nations and integrated in the only country and community they have known for generations? First is a fact, second is an opinion based on that fact. I do have to admit there's a certain irony to saying the Palestinians living abroad should give up on ever returning to their historic homeland considering that's exactly why Israel exists today.
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Jul 2, 2014 14:23
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Not to mention that the existence of Israel is an implicit argument that the right of return should sometimes apply, so it's just a matter of degree. The Palestinian people clearly feel their claim is worthwhile and have endured long years of repression and refugee status - generations of it, in fact - all in the name of reclaiming their homeland. If they had given up and settled elsewhere, being absorbed by new host countries, then yeah maybe right of return wouldn't be an issue. They want to return, however, so it is and is certainly no less valid a case than Israel's if it's based purely on how much the people in question want it. It's true that practically speaking the Palestinians aren't about to get everything they want, but a compromise could still see both sides with a fair amount of land.
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Jul 2, 2014 18:21
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Volkerball posted:The upsetting thing to me is that these are people who are constantly running for shelter, hearing explosions, dealing with all the things you deal with when you're under attack, but when Israel introduces those same fears to Palestinians when there's facts demonstrating that it's women and children who pay the price, they still celebrate it rather than relate with the victims. You'd think living in that environment would make you not wish it upon your worst enemy, but evidently, Palestinians civilians don't deserve basic empathy. To be honest, that's actually one of the more understandable reactions - not a condonable one, just an expected one. People who live in fear like that will either split toward not wishing it on anyone, or wishing it be revisited on the ones responsible ten times over. The cycle of violence, and all that. If the tables were to turn and it was that Israeli town being ripped apart by heavy munitions, many Palestinians near enough to see would probably cheer too, tragically. The almost complete erosion of empathy in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is one of the most terrible results, it makes coexistence seem unimaginable when whole generations have been raised in a never-ending war mentality.
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Jul 11, 2014 01:46
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From the Israeli perspective, what exactly is the goal of continued fighting? What are they (publicly) looking for that they're not getting yet? Are there some suspects in the kidnapping/murder case they're still after? Without that, it's unclear what argument the ceasefire-opponents could give to reject it. "We're not done killing whoever we feel like affiliated with Hamas just yet" isn't really a reason they can put forward on its own, not to mention it's incredibly open-ended short of killing every male in Gaza older than thirteen. It feels like the ceasefire has a shot if only because if the bombing drags on they may have to come up with an explanation for what exactly they feel has been left unfinished. There was some rhetoric about "finally destroying Hamas" which, when paired with ground attack rumors, made me think this might be The Big One where Israel racks up a huge body-count completely dismantling Gaza, but they've shied away from that, so there's not much left for an air campaign to accomplish.
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Jul 15, 2014 01:57
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RandomPauI posted:I had to take a break from this thread so forgive me if this was already explained. It's kind of a complex issue, but I imagine a large part of it is firing rockets is the only act of defiance and violent resistance open to the people of Gaza. It doesn't matter that they're not effective, what matters is it gives them an outlet for their frustration and a way to "strike back". The fact that Israel constantly builds up how dangerous the rocket attacks are for their own reasons and loudly demands that they stop actually helps Hamas by making it sound like the rockets are having the desired effect of terrorizing Israelis. In a weird way, both sides "benefit" from Hamas's rocket attacks - without them, Hamas would be utterly without any means to attack Israel and appear completely useless to their supporters, while Israel would be without their justification for attacking Hamas. That's why you get sinister-sounding rhetoric from Hamas about how they're going to intensify the attack on Israel and all you actually get is a bunch of bottle rockets that Israel obligingly freaks out about. It'd actually be a remarkable change if one side just threw their hands up and said "oh who even cares about these rockets? They're pointless, they achieve nothing".
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Jul 15, 2014 11:46
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Entropia posted:yes hello this is your regular jail correspondent speaking Well, a good start might've been not to launch the airstrikes which kicked off the rocket fire in the first place over unsubstantiated allegations in the West Bank. From their current position, though, it might be a good start to just stop bombing Gaza entirely considering the rockets are achieving nothing. Ignore them. Make a point of how ineffective they are, how meaningless. That would actually do more to stop Hamas from firing them than the current strategy which is only legitimizing rocket attacks by making them sound like they're scary and effective - seeing Israel shrug and turn away while the Iron Dome swats the few that make it out of the sky would be far more damaging to the legitimacy of Hamas's strategy (in their eyes) than acting like their feeble attacks warrant such a heavy response. I even understand why Hamas wouldn't agree to a ceasefire. Why bother? Israel will just start bombing again in the future anyway the next time they feel like it. The ceasefires are a sham only meant to prolong the untenable situation, drag it out to Israel's benefit. At least with the bombs dropping everyone's forced to face the reality of Israel's brutality rather than being able to ignore Gaza's long, slow death.
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Jul 15, 2014 13:31
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After reading that proposal a few pages back by a Knesset member advocating Gaza be destroyed and the Palestinians within scattered, I have to wonder if it's just a matter of time until Israel gets a leader willing to put it into practice. When is the next Israeli election and who are people watching as potential contenders?
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Jul 16, 2014 13:29
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So Hamas's counter-proposal of open the border crossing, end the blockade and release those arrested before the campaign began - will someone make a case for why Israel shouldn't agree to this pretty reasonable trade in return for peace? Why is this further than Israel is willing to go, beyond the fact that Israel seems unwilling to strike a deal where things get better for the Palestinians for fear of appearing to lose?
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Jul 16, 2014 20:29
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So what's the status of the ground invasion? If the only casualties reported so far are 24 Palestinians dead and one IDF soldier dead, that seems pretty small considering how much heavy bombardment seemed to go on last night. Is it just that nobody has no idea what the actual casualties are yet since it's still ongoing and people are keeping their heads down? I see this referred to as "incursion" a lot, and there seems to be some clear short-term goals like destroying the tunnel network or some such thing. Is it possible the invasion will be limited in scope rather than involving the IDF marching all the way through Gaza?
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Jul 18, 2014 13:19
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SedanChair posted:Warren buffed up all that a politician needs to, which is to say "gently caress Palestine": Literally nobody in America's government will ever give Israel anything but a blank check to kill as many Palestinians as they need to in order to "ensure Israel's security and success". Ensuring Palestinians' security and success doesn't even come up except in terms of "if they surrender and their terrorist leaders all go to jail then maybe they'd get bombed less".
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Jul 18, 2014 14:32
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DarkCrawler posted:It's amazing to watch US news about this. The onus is always on Israel defending itself, as if by he same metric Pwlestinians aren't allowed to defend themselves from Israel's ongoing colonialism and apartheid by thee same means. Here the news are almost always from Gaza. Every time someone says "No nation should have to tolerate rockets raining down on them" my eyes roll back into my head because it's embarrassing how much more this argument applies to the Palestinians. In the rare instance someone is forced to engage with that point, they'll usually start explaining how that's different because Palestinians started it/they're targeting civilians while Israel is targeting militants, both very shaky allegations and certainly miles away from that gut reaction of "rockets raining down".
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Jul 19, 2014 14:45
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illrepute posted:
Hope they aimed carefully with those rubber bullets, then. I haven't seen much on the how things are going in the West Bank, I can only imagine tensions are running quite high.
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Jul 20, 2014 04:09
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That's the loving Al-Aqsa Mosque. Ariel Sharon entering that mosque kicked off the loving Second Intifada. Israeli police stormed the drat thing?
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It's basically a derail, considering there are larger issues at hand right now, and events are unfolding in front of us. So if Hamas doesn't have that soldier after all, that's another potential ceasefire gone. I could imagine Israel spinning it as "they did take him alive, but then they murdered him!"
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Jul 20, 2014 23:12
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Do we really need to talk up different posters entering the thread like this is the WWE? When somebody posts something worth engaging with, then talk with them. Guessing we won't hear more about whether that soldier was actually captured or not until tomorrow. Even if it turns out to be a bluff, it could impact the situation. When's this "third phase" supposed to be starting, again?
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Jul 21, 2014 01:08
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The Insect Court posted:It is not difficult for me to see why someone would come to that conclusion of the thread, unless there is some interpretation of "dumb picture" under which only one of the following posts is probatable: You missed the part where the previous images were funny, or "not dumb" as some have called it, because they satirized and mocked a relevant political situation rather than being a "lol people died" fart joke. Also they don't look like poo poo.
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Jul 21, 2014 03:45
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:I don't know Netanyahu can't see that this has everything to do with the occupation and settlements. Like, even if you think those things are good and just and there isn't a single thing wrong with them, how can you not see that Palestinian anger and militancy stems from it? From that exchange, it seems Netanyahu may believe or is at least pushing the idea that hate for Israel among Palestinians comes solely from groups like Hamas teaching it, not from anything Israel actually does. It's an absurd, reductive fantasy that works great for whatever the pro-Israel camp wants to sell, since it means all they have to do is "root out" Hamas and the problem will be over. As for John Kerry, I imagine a whole lot of American politicians (and Western politicians in general) are forced to play dumb by political reality. Taking the Palestinians' side or even just not being a full-throated supporter of Israel is political suicide for anyone, no matter how high-placed. In fact, the higher up you are, the more damaging - I bet even Obama wishes he could put his foot down and force Israel to pull back if he didn't know that his own party would eat him alive for it, out of a mix of genuine pro-Israel sentiment and fear of suffering the same fate. I will say Kerry being frustrated with the party line and cracking every so often (repeating the "precision" mantra bitterly on the phone pre-interview, for example) does do a lot to humanize him, though. Even that might be enough to get him dog-piled if the Republicans choose to make an issue of it.
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Jul 21, 2014 17:04
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Israel has been hungry for the excuse to turn Gaza into Grozny. This whole operation was launched over three murders in the West Bank that couldn't actually be linked to Hamas in Gaza, if Israel had even half a good excuse they'd raze Gaza to the ground and casualties would be in the order of a thousand a day rather than a hundred. With the direction Israeli politics is drifting, they may not even have to wait for an excuse. An election that replaces Netanyahu with someone even further right might be enough. How long will it be until someone runs for leadership of Israel and wins on an explicit platform of "I will destroy Gaza once and for all"? There's certainly a market for that line of thinking, if the online reaction is to be believed.
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Jul 23, 2014 04:20
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Hong XiuQuan posted:I can't think of any justification for that murder. No rockets, no gunfire, no Hamas. Just a man looking for his family. Shot once. Shot twice. Murdered. People just shrug and say "Eh, Pallywood" and turn their brains back off. The kids on the beach are another example, official word only need be "oh well if there's something to investigate we'll take care of it thank you" and that's that, what matters is outcry, and there's none of that to be had.
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Jul 23, 2014 22:03
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:To be fair, Cruz and the GOP have been using every excuse possible to not vote on nominees because they're obstructionist jackasses, this is probably just a convenient excuse for him rather than him actually being dumb enough to believe what he's saying. Ted has never seemed quite dumb enough to believe what he's saying, but I don't doubt he enjoys scoring points over Israel as much as he enjoys obstructing the business of the senate. This is probably a twofer for him.
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Jul 24, 2014 00:50
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Maybe the reason why Israel keeps claiming they're showing massive restraint is because they actually just want to crush Gaza and drive the Palestinians into the sea, and every day they resist that impulse is some kind of massive act of willpower? Regardless, this constant bleating about Hamas using human shields is so painfully shallow, like Hamas is a bad guy in an action movie with one arm wrapped about Gaza's neck to use them as a human shield while shooting at the plucky hero - and even that analogy breaks down, since if the action hero just shoots them both and blames it all on the hostage-taker they're a bad guy too. The idea that the only way Israel could be killing so many innocent people is Hamas must be throwing them into the line of fire is such an audacious denial. You could use it to justify any crime, so long as you keep giving the benefit of the doubt to the perpetrator regardless of what happens.
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Jul 24, 2014 14:04
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Dapper Dan posted:The only answer I can conceive is that the Gaza strip is the world's biggest coliseum right now, a bloody show for a bloodthirsty populace to keep a political party in power. This is the actual answer. These indecisive but bloody rounds of conflict seem to exist solely to keep Gazans' heads down and help the right wing further entrench themselves. They are achieving exactly their intended purpose right now, since the only meaningful risk Israel faces is maybe they'll suffer enough military casualties to make some people regret the attack (not the deaths they caused, mind you, just how costly it was). We haven't even reached Cast Lead's casualty statistics yet, and nothing else came of Cast Lead. Once the death toll is twice what it is now, then we can start speculating that maybe something different will happen this time. I'd say we're at least ten days from there. Edit: I guess the real nightmare scenario would be Israeli politics drifting so far right that Netanyahu loses to a true believer who's willing to destroy Gaza once and for all. Dolash fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 16:04
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Do we really need to get lost in the fog of academic analysis about whether all revolutionary struggle against imperialism is inherently struggle against the patriarchy, at this particular moment? Revolutionary theory can give us lots of interesting labels and boxes to put the events of Gaza in but it's hardly useful to anyone outside of the academic conversation who are already familiar with that system of categorization. Not one israeli bomb or palestinian rocket will be moved by academic quibbling about the Saur revolution. Dolash fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jul 24, 2014 |
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Jul 24, 2014 17:03
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:Let's not be too hasty now. Nah, that much is true. I'm still pretty sure that the hundreds of dead and exceedingly high civilian casualty rate really does qualify as "restrained" by Israel's standards, since it's obvious by now there's no resistance within Israel to just wiping Gaza out. It's only the fear that America doesn't have the stomach for true bald-faced eradication that keeps Israel in check. What pro-Israel outlets or posters are talking about a prosperous, independent Gaza? Even as they talk about rooting out Hamas, do they ever mention that it's so Gaza can be its own free country or anything like that? One possible use for these constant cycles of violence might be to accustom pro-Israel nations to them, so when it comes time for Israel to propose some kind of... I don't know, let's call it an "ultimate conclusion" to the affair it will seem more justified since Israel could claim it had made every possible effort.
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Jul 24, 2014 18:25
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So it sounds like the situation's still escalating, what with tensions boiling over in the West Bank. At this point a mere ceasefire seems pointless for Gaza - infrastructure obliterated, all parts of the occupation still in effect, and the promise that in another two years when Israel feels like it they'll just do it again. At least by refusing a ceasefire they're forcing Israel to own the horror of their actions, it's harder to sell a quick and bloody ethnic cleansing than it is a slow and strangling one. Of course, this is kind of moot considering nobody's really offering Hamas a clean ceasefire - that one Kerry drafted up where the IDF gets to keep "blowing up terror tunnels" for a week was ridiculous farce. Any more news about rockets at the airport? If one of them actually managed to hit a plane god knows what'd happen next.
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Jul 25, 2014 14:28
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Maybe they want Hamas to claim responsibility for the killing of the teenagers and admit that Israel's actions were justified? The classic "this is all your fault" surrender, Treaty of Versailles style? Or maybe Israel is looking to dismantle Hamas, although I don't think they could. Hamas will pretty much exist as long as there's someone left in Gaza that's angry with Israel and wants to hit back.
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Jul 25, 2014 19:15
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Entropia posted:another thing i'd like to know, is there any reaction from the class of highly-educated university types? one would imagine that when a state goes pseudo-fascist like Israel seems to be, the cosmopolitan learned classes flee. The vicious counter-protests shouting "Death to Arabs!" and "Death to leftists!" sound like they could be an indication that Israel will start becoming more fascist internally to match their brutal treatment of the Palestinians, it's a natural consequence of the drift rightward. Violence is used to entrench right-wing politicians, the violence inflames Israeli society and pushes it further right, a right-flank challenger emerges to capitalize on this shift and come into government, repeat until every Palestinian is dead and/or a genuine fascist dictator is elected. I'd imagine it'll take a while, though. With the Palestinians as such a convenient Other to rally the population against, there isn't a huge need to go hunting for the enemy within. Actually, I have to wonder if Israel has some interesting population self-selecting going on. Since a Jewish person born abroad can apply to become an Israeli and move to Israel, but living in Israel would appeal mostly to more religiously-minded and/or conservative people, could that be acting as some kind of self-reinforcing population pressure? The more right-wing and violent Israel becomes, the more immigration to Israel is limited to just hard-line conservatives? Dolash fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Jul 26, 2014 |
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Jul 26, 2014 14:13
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aBagorn posted:What the hell is this garbage I just got forwarded? Read first few paragraphs, could not be paid to read any more. This is just a long-form youtube comment or Facebook diatribe.
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Jul 26, 2014 15:07
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Honj Steak posted:This forum is way too likeminded. I've got an opponent for you to debunk. You could come at him from a dozen different angles on that one. Show him individual casualties like the man in the green shirt being sniped or the kids on the beach being fired upon twice. Show him what the blockade has restricted as 'contraband' and discussion of putting Gazans 'on a diet'. Show him reports of whole families killed when houses of Hamas officials are targeted. Show him articles covering the destruction of schools and hospitals without warning or justification. He might have some kind of followup justification, but that's irrelevant - the point is that these are crimes, and further argument are attempts to say the crimes were right.
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Jul 27, 2014 17:43
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Demiurge4 posted:The sanitation and water issues worry the hell out of me. If the blockade stays up won't disease quickly kill off a huge chunk of Gaza? Plain old thirst could start killing people if water infrastructure remains demolished and the siege continues.
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Jul 27, 2014 18:20
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Why are they making such a big deal about this one particular brutal act of murder when they've killed over a thousand other Palestinians at this point? "Nu uh, those particular sixteen weren't us! Or it was an accident! Or it never happened even!" It's not like we're short on images of brutality at this point to attribute to the IDF.
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Jul 27, 2014 20:12
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Oldsmobile posted:Was this posted already? http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/israels-other-war Hey now, no need to be so extreme - I bet it'll take at least a few more years of riding the spiral lower and lower before the dam finally breaks and Gaza is swept into the sea to raucous cheers.
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Jul 27, 2014 20:59
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Quantum Finger posted:u no who else got stabbed n the back by internal saboteurs????? I hadn't considered it, but one of the possible frightening outcomes of this situation is that if it doesn't end with "total victory" (whatever that means) for Israel, right-wing politicians might start pushing that "saboteurs are keeping us from winning!" narrative. I'm still stunned that they not only rejected John Kerry's ceasefire but apparently are straight-up mad about it, insisting it was pro-Hamas - at this point I don't think even the hardline Israelis themselves will settle for, just that if they don't get it it'll be seen as betrayal. When's the next Israeli election? The outcome of that is probably going to be extremely important.
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Jul 27, 2014 21:40
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cravius posted:Wow the knesset did something wrong and it got overturned by judicial process. What a racist, overbearing, authoritarian state. Yes, it is, because it keeps doing the wrong thing and it's only the judicial system keeping them at all in check. If your elected officials are chaffing against legal restraints in their desire to express racist and oppressive policies, it might just be because they're racists.
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Jul 27, 2014 23:20
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