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SedanChair posted:The State of Israel should be brought to an end. Not the people, just the state. Makes a lot more sense to pressure the State of Israel to withdraw from the West Bank and accede to Palestinian statehood therein. There's international consensus on that, and the EU is making headway with it. There is none of that for dismantling Israel as a state. Captain_Maclaine posted:Or, you know, it could have just been a street-level jacking gone horribly wrong. Also not all of Hamas is 110% behind working with Fatah, who had just recently been suppressing them in the West Bank, and who, to their mind, had been collaborating with the Zionist oppressor for two decades now. In any event, just because this is clearly in Israeli interest doesn't mean it was instigated by Israelis. They just needed a trigger, if this hadn't come up, a rocket from the Gaza Strip killing somebody, whether it was a response to a previous Israeli bombing or not, would have done the same work. SedanChair posted:The latter. They were hanging out on a street corner trying to hitchhike as that is apparently a popular way to rub their free movement in Palestinians' faces. No, that is what happens when you need to move around a place that has poor public transportation service. Getting from Tel Aviv and Jerusalem to some of these settlements is easy, getting around them apparently is difficult if you don't have your own vehicle. I don't see how it's useful to make them out as more monstrous than actual actions are, it's not a productive way of engaging with people whose views/actions you want to change.
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Jul 1, 2014 02:38
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computer parts posted:Give Palestinians Israeli citizenship and it will end on its own. Who is going to be giving them that citizenship? I don't see that ending in anything but a brutal civil war that Palestinians will lose because Israelis are better armed. I would like to see less borders in some future time, but right now I don't see Israeli Jews accepting a State where Jews aren't in charge. If it has to be non-democratic, they'll take that route. Hell, they are taking that route with the Occupation right now, the only reason there's a semblance of the whole thing being democratic is that even according to Israeli law, the West Bank is under military occupation. ETA: SedanChair posted:Hopefully more and more Jewish kids will become completely disillusioned with racism and support a one-state solution. quote:I have no hope of changing the minds of settlers in the West Bank. They're fanatics. Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 02:44
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illrepute posted:These attitudes are actually shifting. I don't have any articles on hand, but I remember a few years back there was a flurry of articles about how Western Jewish people were growing disaffected with Israel due to the occupation (at least in part). That's great, but it doesn't affect what Jewish Israelis think, and that is the constituency you need to deal with.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:16
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illrepute posted:Correct, however Israel has maintained its population growth with immigration from Jews abroad, which seems to be falling off among Western Jews as they become alienated from the state; further, if Jews abroad stop supporting Israel it raises the possibility of American (America being either the #1 or #2 most populous Jewish country depending on your math) support dropping off, both of which are game-changers. The people who actually move to Israel and then stay there self-select to be able to deal with the racist bullshit, and are going to a Jewish state anyway. Even if all of them left you have a hard core of a few millions who are not going anywhere without a fight. Shimrra Jamaane posted:I'd say that the fact that Israel is religiously Jewish is completely incidental and has been for decades. It's a nation run by a power hungry corrupt regime using religion as a thin veil of justification for what they do just like any other country in the Middle East. Except that this nation is fully backed by financial and military resources of the United States, really loving up the balance of the region by basically allowing said corrupt regime to do whatever the gently caress they want. Does this make sense? I know I'm simplifying things a massive amount. I'd say that you are misinformed. There is widespread popular support for Jews being in charge of Israel. Even the secular Jewish tradition (of which my parents come from) knew precisely the kind of religion they were protesting against, and have substituted Orthodox Judaism with a kind of Biblical fundamentalism, with nationalism replacing faith. They see themselves justified by the Holocaust and Pogroms rather than divine right, but they will not accept, at this time, being ruled by a non-Jewish majority. I do not know what "regime" you are talking about; there have been changes in government, although mostly it's been Likud and such in power, and they were elected by Israeli citizens, not imposed by anybody. They are right-wing and nationalist because the Israeli public is such. SedanChair posted:Still no evidence it was Palestinians, let alone Hamas. Considering that Hamas has pointedly refused to condemn it, unlike Abbas, I wouldn't rule them out, although I agree there is not enough evidence for that. However, considering that most violence involving Jews in the West Bank is with Palestinians (and occasionally with the military, although the military usually does not fight back in anywhere near the same violence it fights Palestinians), yeah, I'd say other settlers being the culprits is not a likely scenario. ETA: Nintendo Kid posted:I support the US immediately taking over all occupation duties in Palestinian territory, since it would remove the IDF. That's great. Sell that to the Israeli public, or the American one for that matter. It is much likelier to get the Israeli public to push the IDF to remove settlers (as they have done in the Sinai and in the Gaza Strip and Northern "Samaria") than any foreign power.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:34
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illrepute posted:Right! But that's still not the same thing as an unassailable majority backed up by immigration and the world superpower. If American support drops off, the whole thing goes South-Africa shaped in short order. No, because there is a Palestinian Authority waiting to take over a state, and there is an international consensus that the Israelis get to be whatever assholes they want if they withdraw to the Green Line. So that is a much likelier choice on their part.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:37
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McDowell posted:This is the same logic for why the Israelis no longer give a poo poo about the peace process 'they elected Hamas' No. Israelis no longer give a poo poo about the peace process because they don't see any developments in it. The actual alternatives need to be explained to them, and demonstrated to them. So far they are reluctant to go head on against the settlers because they do not see that it will lead anywhere. Disillusioning them from this notion that settlements make them safer will be the first step, although the increasing cost of settlements to the non-settler public is going to help out. Especially if the EU is rigorous in making the settlements untenable for business and banking, and if the US finally stops giving Israel blank diplomatic checks. A nice non-veto for Israel in the UNSC would be a good start. They only need to do this once. McDowell posted:The choice has been made, let them have their war. Whoever comes out on top in Syria will be marching south anyway, so at this point it is inevitable. That being said, the IDF will make mincemeat of ISIS. They may not have a lot of experience fighting people who actually fight back (Lebanon War 2 - Galilean Buggaloo definitely proved that), they have the equipment and the people, and the battlefield is a great place to learn. Plus they will be fighting on home turf and for their homeland. That tends to give you a bit of a boost in morale that you don't get from breaking into houses to abduct children. SedanChair posted:The fighting prowess and inclinations of the modern Israeli are greatly exaggerated. Years of soft living and occupation duty mean that they don't know what a real war is. They certainly don't have any of the toughness of the plucky little band of terrorists who founded the country. As I said above, they will have catching up to do vis-a-vis actual fighting, but with the right equipment, and if they needed to, they will manage. IDF service is not soft living. I was shocked to find that American troops actually trained in barracks. IDF soldiers do their Basic Training in tents in the desert. The real problem is bad logistics and poor preparedness for actual fighting, but just the air assets will be able to make up for it while the ground troops catch up. illrepute posted:That's not true though? About the consensus. That's not an actual thing the international community has expressed.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:07
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Nintendo Kid posted:I'm not saying it's going to happen, friend. Just that the US itself muscling out Israel in Palestine would probably be good. Well, I think that before things went south, the idea was that NATO forces would be hanging around the West Bank and Gaza in lieu of Palestine having it's own real, honest-to-God army. But that would have been after Israel withdrew its own settlers, although border fixes made it so there wouldn't really be a need to move that many, anyway. illrepute posted:There's a difference between recognizing Israel within the context of them withdrawing from the Occupied Territories and just letting Israel be "whatever assholes they want" as long as the occupation ends. Well, I'll qualify that in saying that the international community has been very reluctant to actually intervene in the assholery of member states up to a certain level, which Israel not granting its Arab citizens the same rights as Jews but allowing them to vote and have quite a few of the same civil rights does not reach. I don't see an international equivalent of the 101 Airborne desegregating a school in Little Rock. SedanChair posted:I've got to admit the idea of a 19-year-old kid from the Ozarks yelling "Hey get the gently caress away from there! What the gently caress are you doing?" at crazed settlers spitting on Palestinian kids gives me a fuzzy feeling.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:15
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illrepute posted:No, you're definitely right. But it's important to recognize that Israel/Palestine has a unique position in international diplomacy (being the subject of a HUGE amount of UN resolutions) and I don't see that fading from international view even after a hypothetical Israeli withdrawal from the Occupied Territories. The U.N. is hypervigilant about issues developing in that region, and if post-withdrawal Israel continues to be militarily adventurous in Palestine or other neighboring countries, I don't see the U.N. (hypothetical future-UN) and the international community deciding that because they don't have soldiers on the ground in Hebron anymore they'll just let it slide. Maybe that's optimistic.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:24
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Dolash posted:I don't really see American support for Israel eroding at any point, unless Israel does something monumentally stupid. Like, Israel could declare the West Bank and Gaza integral parts of Israel tomorrow and send in their army to drive every Palestinian out of the new borders and I can't imagine anything more than hand-wringing and empty diplomatic threats from America - and the extremely pro-Israel factions would just double-down anyway. Without losing bedrock American support, not just from one administration, Israel will remain untouchable. This support does have its limitations, though. It hasn't stopped the EU from restricting its R&D funding from reaching institutions in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, nor requiring that Israel label any of its products from there. There are ways around it, but a sufficiently rigorous enforcement regime can have a chilling effect that may make it a bad investment choice. Furthermore, there is a good argument to be made that US pressure on Israel for a two-state solution is saving Israel from long-term problems created by this blanket diplomatic support. If American Jews are really getting disenchanted with supporting Israeli right-wingers, and this finally percolates up the Jewish organization ladder, this may also help.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:41
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computer parts posted:Support as in votes, maybe. Support as in money, eh there's a lot more rich Jews than rich Evangelicals (especially as a proportion to their respective populations) and just like any other rich people they donate to aid their interests. In that context it may be worth mentioning that Sheldon Adelson has been bankrolling a freely distributed daily newspaper whose sole purpose is to shore up support for one Benjamin Netanyahu, distorting the local media landscape in the process.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:04
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xrunner posted:A state for the Kurds and a state for the Roma is as divisive and problematic as a state for the French or a state for the Norwegians. quote:Look at the tensions that develop when you draw states around ethnic and cultural boundaries. Riots, hate, yeah. quote:What we need are secular, multicultural states finding the way forward. quote:Israel is an apartheid state, based on dubious religious identity, horrifically oppressing a group of people who could learn as much from the Israelis as they could teach. It's time for a secular one state solution. Seriously.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:09
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e X posted:What is the actual reason behind the settlements? I don't mean the realpolitik for their existence, but how are they soled to the public. If Israel accepts, or at least acknowledges, the Palestinian territory, how do they explain the building of settlements. Including internationally. Quite a few Israeli Jews, particularly the National Religious stream, believe that Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) were promised to Jews by God, and therefore it is legitimate for Jews to settle there, regardless of pesky notions of international law. Others excuse it by saying that it doesn't matter because the Arabs will hate us anyway, or since it was taken from Jordan which held it illegally, then it's fine (there's a phrase in Hebrew: "he who steals from a thief is exempt from punishment"). Internationally, as far as I know not a single other country acknowledges Israeli claims to the West Bank, Gaza or the Golan Heights, although their enforcement in terms of banning products from there, investment, etc, is uneven. The EU has started cracking down more seriously recently, although they've been requiring Israel to label its settlement products for years. Most countries do not accept Jerusalem, pre or post 1967, as the Israeli capital, hosting their embassies around Tel Aviv, instead. And East Jerusalem is usually considered part of the West Bank as far as they are concerned.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:14
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The Insect Court posted:In actual news, it seems that there has also been an uptick of rocket fire from the Gaza Strip but the articles I've read on it seem to indicate that it's not believed to originate from Hamas but from smaller terrorist groups. What that means about Hamas complicity in these murders, if anything, is debatable. It's much likelier to do with Israeli attacks on the Gaza strip than to have any kind of relevance to anyone's complicity in these murders. Umiapik posted:Except, in the USA, it's a serious criminal offence for a business to boycott Israel. There's a whole government department set up to make sure that American companies don't do this and that individuals who contact a company, asking them to support a boycott, are reported to the authorities: I keep forgetting this law just because of how insane it is. I mean, how has it not been overturned by the Supreme Court's "money is speech" doctrine already? At least one good thing could come of that.
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Jul 1, 2014 06:44
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GuyinCognito posted:You know who prints his hate rag for the white supremacists in Israel? Haaretz prints it for him because its an extra source of income and nobody buys center-left newspapers in Israel. I don't see how calling even the most racist Israeli Jews "white supremacists" makes sense. They are Jewish supremacists. In any event, that is no longer entirely true. They have their own press, which they bought from the faltering Maariv; it's been operative since February, and they're slowly getting more and more printed there.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:49
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GuyinCognito posted:Most jews and zionists are white. They bring in some tokenism from Africa to say they are multicultural but they are still white. White supremacists. quote:You know if only the hate filled ethnic cleansers loved their children more then stealing land, murdering and raping Palestinians, kidnapping and torturing and killing Palestinian children, then this would never have happened. Israel and the concept of Israel needs to be erased from the pages of history.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:10
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:Why are there so much media attention on three dead Israelis and almost nothing on the five Palestinians killed in the search for them? The Guardian even said some of those killed were minors. As for the Palestinian casualties, I heard is that there was one 13-year-old, one mentally disabled man, and an elderly couple killed. Those were especially heinous, but there seem to have been more. At least 9, so the Facebook rumor mill has it.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:29
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GuyinCognito posted:My hatred for zionism and the state of Israel could never compare to the hatred that Israelis have towards Palestinians. I would never murder or rape anyone. Not even a hate filled zionist who's only wish in life is to exterminate and expel all non-jews from greater Israel. quote:I already understand the situation and know the solution. The solution is limited bombing of their WMD sites and massive worldwide sanctions.
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Jul 1, 2014 08:59
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Assuming that this thread also acts as a general Israel thread, I'm wondering if anybody else has been following the asylum seeker odyssey. We had a thread about it that was closed a couple of months ago, when they ended up marching on Jerusalem in protest of their conditions. They had since been relegated to a refugee camp, Holot, near the internment camp, Saharonim. (Or is it an internment camp vs. a prison? I am not sure the translation works well, and I guess it's charged, anyway.) A few days ago many of them marched out of it and erected a tent camp near the Israeli-Egyptian border, protesting their harsh conditions. Israeli authorities responded with their usual discretion and concern for the human rights of a disadvantaged population: quote:Israel-Egypt border - Israeli police have raided a protest camp near the Israeli-Egyptian border, arresting the 1,000 African asylum seekers protesting there, and injuring dozens. The story itself has photos of the event and aftermath.
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Jul 1, 2014 09:36
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Israelis, like the settlers of all European colonies implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) want to eventually take all the native population's land and property. As they become more established it becomes more overt but the desire is always there. quote:In this context the peace process is an interesting modern PR cover for colonialism. Whereas in the past the natives were violent savages (because they reacted to the violent appropriation of their land and resources) who needed civilising through sublimation into the white settler state nowadays they are bad faith negotiators because Israel has no desire to adhere to any agreement that is negotiated. Stop hitting yourselves natives. There is only one Israeli society apparently. This Israeli society does one thing and then another and then kills its own leaders. I suppose an alternate theory would be that Israeli society is multifaceted with many opposing forces, in which some dominate over others under different historical contexts, and which have changed dramatically with diplomatic cover from the US, and one might ponder the change in, say, the stream that Rabin's assassin comes from, which used to be diffident and hesitant about warmongering until the victory in 1967 convinced it that salvation was at hand, and one might wonder what that stream's current strength is based upon, and whether there are any faults in this base; one might also wonder what was it that pushed the architect of the most vicious policies reacting to the first Intifada to make peace with Arafat, that man with whose organization it had been illegal to come in contact just a few years beforehand. But that would require nuance, and sounds like work, and it seems a lot of posters here are content to bloviate their contempt for Israeli society and Zionism in lieu of presenting any solutions or interesting commentary.
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Jul 1, 2014 09:49
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Cerebral Bore posted:Nobody has said much of anything about Israeli socity, which is multifaceted with many opposing forces and so on and so forth. People have said things about the State of Israel, which has had a remarkably consistent policy of loving over the Palestinians pretty much since its founding. This is what I was responding to: ReV VAdAUL posted:The pretense put forward by Zionists that Israelis are losing faith in the 'peace process' is made mockery of by A cursory glance at Israeli actions. For instance the reaction to the Oslo accords, a great deal for Israel (if it wanted any kind of negotiated settlement) and a lovely one for Palestine yet the Israeli reaction was to assassinate the leader who negotiated the historic accord and quickly abandon all commitment to it. Saying that Israel assassinated Rabin is to conflate society with State with policy. He's not the only person in this thread to do this, just a more ridiculous one. But case in point: GuyinCognito posted:It sucks that 3 white kids died while burning down olive trees in a pricetag attack but their parents didnt love them. They just wanted to use the kids to create a greater Israel. A state for white supremacists. Apparently blind hatred is okay if it's directed at Israeli Zionist white supremacists. Add your own negative descriptor to the word salad and violent fantasies, I sure as hell don't hear enough of those from right-winged Israelis I argue with. Rogue0071 posted:I like how the mantra of "Israel's right to exist" is bandied about so much that people talk about whether Palestinians should accept it as a precondition for negotiations without critically considering it at all. Israel is an apartheid state. Apartheid states do not have a "right to exist", they should be destroyed and replaced with a new state or states. Palestinians should have no obligation to accept the maintenance of apartheid and discrimination against Arab-Israelis (which Israel's "right to exist as a Jewish state" entails). Other than occupying the West Bank, East Jerusalem, blockading Gaza, and unilaterally annexing the Golan Heights, which are big, I admit, Israel is not the worst member of the UN. It would just be a discriminatory ethnic democracy, which has a right to exist inasmuch as the international community is willing to mostly allow internal agitation to change it. See Saudi Arabia, any of the Emirates, North Korea, etc. That is why the push to the Green Line is such a big deal, not because they give a lot of poo poo that Arabs don't get the same kind of land allocation or job opportunities as Jews, or because their history keeps getting erased, or any number of other discriminatory and heinous policies, inside the internationally recognized borders of Israel. "Right to exist" may sound like a mantra to you, but it's a reasonable starting point if you're asking a country to negotiate with any other. Since the PLO has already done this, though, it's not a real barrier; instead, "recognize as a Jewish state" is the stupid spoiler Netanyahu keeps rambling about, and which Abbas will not accept, for obvious reasons. It's one thing to accept a country, another thing to condone everything that it does, especially what you disagree with, off the bat. Livewire42 posted:As opposed to all the surrounding Arab states that declared war and attacked as soon as Israel accepted the UN proposed borders? The more I think of it, the less it made sense to pretend that there was any possibility for a separate Arab country in Palestine. Palestinian leadership had already been completely broken in the 1936-1939 Arab Revolt. It would have made much more sense to simply allocate those territories to existing countries directly. That way the armies would have had clear borders to go up to, and internationally, the status of the various portions would have been a lot more clear-cut. Instead there was this passing back and forth of the buck over those territories, and a lot of diplomatic ammunition against Egypt and Jordan for holding occupied lands, equivocated with Israeli expansion beyond the partition lines. The refugees would have also had an easier status as displaced citizens rather than being displaced from a hostile country/non-existent one in the imagined future return. Real hurthling! posted:wow all those armies must have been a real threat to poor innocent israel. It sure seemed so at the time to migrants from Central and Eastern Europe who felt this was just a large-scale pogrom, as well as the Holocaust refugees armed and trained to fight for a country of their own. Fortunately for the Zionists, Ben Gurion realized that military force would be essential, and made the Hagana and its various militias a priority in his planning, exactly for this type of scenario, and they had been making connections for a long time, including by siding with the Allies in WWII, so they were able to overpower the other militaries coming in. But this kind of anachronistic thinking, where you project Israels clear, undoubtable, ridiculous primacy in Middle Eastern military prowess to the past is what makes it difficult to understand how people thought then, and how that reflects forward to how things are now. You can trace back the primacy of the IDF in Israeli politics to that era, if you understand the why, but you won't if you think Israel was always top-dog without any doubt or question.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:27
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Real hurthling! posted:so just to be clear, you want to stress to me that israel's victories were uncertain and perhaps impressive and your proof is that they planned really hard in advance with western powers and set up their government to be run by literal terroists. Hell, until the victories in 1967, it was a wide consensus about Arab scholars and political analysts that Israel was an ephemeral thing that will disappear soon, and propaganda directed at Israelis reflected that. At this point, Israeli military leaders already knew differently, but it took a while to percolate to the wider population, and there are still remnants of "we will be slaughtered en masse if we blink" in Israeli discourse. We've seen this kind of nonsense in this very thread, where GaussianCopula is comparing Hamas to the Nazis. Just like Netanyahu keeps comparing Iran to the Nazis. With the implication that Jews are in the exact same situation vis-a-vis them as they were with the Nazis, unless we fight back (by bombing civilians, abducting kids, and spoiling cease-fires and negotiations). People of my grandfather's generation had every right to spend most of their lives with this mentality. It is unfortunately very difficult to get people of mine or my parents` to realize that this is entirely anachronistic, and the yearly trips of Israeli Jewish high-schoolers to the extermination camps, and the constant connection made between a strong army and not letting that happen, doesn't help.
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Jul 1, 2014 19:12
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TheImmigrant posted:It is more than reasonable to assume that Palestinians and/or their supporters murdered those teenagers. This isn't proof, but a rebuttable presumption. It is more than reasonable to assume that Jewish settlers and/or their supporters have been responsible for a lot of deaths and agony that these killers and their families have undergone. So is their assault justified? They did attack Jewish settlers.
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Jul 1, 2014 19:23
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Xandu posted:Teenagers shouldn't be killed because of their parents' political choices. I entirely agree with that. I was merely mirroring TheImmigrant's arguments at him, as he seems to be condoning similarly heinous actions towards Palestinians qua Palestinians.
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Jul 1, 2014 19:31
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I don't think this has been brought up, but aside from the actual 911 (100 in Israel) recording being published, several police officers were demoted as a result of the botched response to the call. Top brass were spending the week or so after the abduction repeatedly claiming that they handled it impeccably; guess not. quote:
Some of the investigation had already been reported on last week; original reports had a gag order on the name of the officer in charge who was demoted. Gag orders are a dime a dozen over there, mostly for covering up someone's rear end in the security services.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:04
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Meanwhile, since the disproportionate response has yet to sate the bloodlust for some, there's a riot of right-wingers aching for revenge in Jerusalemquote:
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Jul 1, 2014 20:33
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Paul MaudDib posted:So far as I can tell, it's a claim with an equivalent amount of evidence as the claim that this was a nefarious Hamas plot. Meaning zero evidence but since we can't prove it's false we might as well presume that it is true. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, after all! There's testimony of the parents, of people from their Yeshiva, and the 100 call, all pointing to a botched kidnapping.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:57
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Cat Mattress posted:An angry crowd vandalizing Arab-owned stores in reprisal. They should have done this during the night. To be fair, that's normal behavior in Eastern Jerusalem during Jerusalem Day. Police will literally tell Palestinians they better close their shops and come back the next day. Jerusalem Day 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t_ZjetcSMQ Jerusalem Day 2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVOZCapgRps Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 21:00
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CharlestheHammer posted:The parents and their Yeshiva don't actually know much as far as I am aware. IT might have been a kidnapping, but if you plan to punish a country and are going to kill a bunch of people, you better be 100% sure. The parents and the Yeshiva knew they left from point A and didn't get to point B, and they informed police when they realized this. They were also allowed to listen to the 100 call a few days afterwards, unlike the rest of us, so it was clear to all involved that it had been a botched kidnapping. You hear gunfire and screaming in the background. The response was bullshit and actively harmed finding the bodies and the killers, though.
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Jul 1, 2014 21:15
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:None of that is actual evidence of WHO did it. How is that phonecall any different than it would be if, hypothetically, it was some other settlers trying to kidnap them for a money ransom? The kid says "I was kidnapped", there is a man shouting at another person to lower their heads in Arab-accented Hebrew, then some Arabic, then gunfire. I guess that Arabic-accented person could be a Settler faking an accent or an Arab working for a kidnapping Settler, but those seem less likely scenarios.
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Jul 1, 2014 21:27
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bassguitarhero posted:Apparently we know HAMAS was involved because A) kids were kidnapped B) they said "we were kidnapped" C) you can hear gunshots in the background D) HAMAS and Fatah just entered a unified government that Israel is really pissed off about It is relatively clear from the evidence that the kidnappers/killers were Palestinians. As for whether these were Hamas operatives, rogue agents, just some loose cannons, criminal elements, or whatnot? Who knows? What with all the evidence destroyed in the raids, and how easy it is to just pick up a car and kidnap a hitchhiker, we may never be sure. I'm just saying that the settlers kidnapping other settlers for ransom scenario is terribly unlikely, and there's really no point in repeatedly bringing it up.
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Jul 1, 2014 22:12
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Popular Thug Drink posted:The point in repeatedly bringing it up is to underscore the blood thirst of the Israeli government. One of these paints you as an anti-Israeli/pro-Palestinian fanatic, another makes the likelihood of anyone with any sympathy to any Israelis actually listening to your point non-zero. Guess which is which? CharlestheHammer posted:A more app example is you here hoofbeats and shoot it because it might be a horse. Turns out it was a Zebra. Oops. Yeah, that is a better analogy. This kind of mentality among the Israeli public, percolating into the military, is how half of Israelis killed in Cast Lead were soldiers killed by other Israeli soldiers. "Shoot first, ask questions later"/"round up the usual suspects", even divorced from the horrors it inflicts on its victims, is bad police work, bad security work, just not even effective, period. And on effectiveness you can at least try and theoretically reach dyed-in-the-wool pro-Israelis.
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Jul 1, 2014 22:34
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Al-Saqr posted:Why should anybody compromise their messages of human rights, freedom and democracy in order to appeal to racist religious apartheidist ethnic cleansing colonialists and the people who support them?! why SHOULD you reach them?! if they're so out of touch with humanitarian and democratic principles and choose to ignore their moral compasses, then you SHOULD call them out as being crazies and despise them as such. Because the aim is to actually affect change in reality. And that is going to require Israeli Jews to change their opinions and behaviors. If you somehow want to do that by force, that's great, but it hasn't worked in the past; another way is to actually communicate with them and understand what it is that motivates them so you know how to get them to change behavior, and what is the viable range of such change. The message of "human rights, freedom and democracy" rings hollow when there are barely any political leaderships around that espouse that, or that are likely to magically manifest themselves. You open yourself up to questions of how the hell a fundamentalist group like Hamas is expected to promote any of that. While if you go through constituencies and matters of self-interest, whether or not Hamas are "good people" or "democratic" or whatnot becomes much less relevant. Xandu posted:Yeah, but not all Israeli Arabs are Druze or Bedouin. Plenty consider themselves Palestinians as well. But you're right, they operate in a weird inbetween that makes their identity not black and white, because they don't all feel fully part of Israel, yet they clearly are in many respects. They do find themselves in a very awkward and compromised position. Here is a take from the point of view of one of the leaders of the National Democratic Assembly, usually known to Israelis as "Balad" from the Hebrew acronym. They made a very distinct attempt to reach out to Israeli Jews of Arab descent last election cycle, which I thought was an approach with much long-term potential, although it'll require some work. It has definitely been a place where a lot of Mizrahi Jewish radical leftists who feel marginalized by the Ashkenazi elite in that sub-movement could feel somewhat more at home, although that is not universal even among my own friends.
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Jul 2, 2014 02:41
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SedanChair posted:That's pretty much just another way to stake claim to the occupied territory. Yeah, a Kibbutz is just a type of small agrarian town, that it is in the West Bank means it's a settlement.
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Jul 2, 2014 03:29
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Xandu posted:I know, just thought it was interesting that they didn't grow up in settlements. What source are you using? Ynet (Yedioth's website) has only one of them, Naftali Frenkel, being from inside the Green Line. Generally it isn't surprising for people of the national-religious movement to study in settlements even if they haven't originally grew up in them; all of Eretz Israel belongs to Jews equally, as far as they are concerned.
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Jul 2, 2014 03:34
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Xandu posted:Grabbed the towns from the sidebar here. For some reason I was certain that El'ad was in the West Bank. Some Israeli expat I am. 
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Jul 2, 2014 03:49
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Spaceman Future! posted:Really, what choice does Palestine have at this point? They can either lay down and die slow by encroachment and eventual expulsion or quickly by reaction, what would option 3 be? Do what Abbas has been doing, which involves cracking down on his own people so he can be taken seriously, improving Palestine's standing in the UN, getting Hamas under PLO's wing so that Gaza and the West Bank are under a unified government, and making sure the international community sees his PA as the saner partner in this negotiation; then basically ride the sanctions on the West Bank settlements until the Israelis end up yielding. I wouldn't say that killing those three kids was clearly the spoiler for that, as I am sure some other excuse would have been found if this hadn't become apparent, and the Israeli government had been trying to find excuses for a while now, but it was looking like the international community was warming up to basically accepting Hamas as legitimized under this configuration, to the chagrin of the Israeli government. But frankly, I think that within a week or two, these kids will be forgotten, while Israeli atrocities will repeatedly make the news, and the configuration will come back to where it was. In the meantime, many more Palestinians will needlessly be killed and detained, their houses ruined, or die due to lack of basic supplies/medical care; Israeli casualties will likely be small in comparison, as usual considering the power differential. Elotana posted:@YiddishNewsFeed 1m Yeah. There are a few comments condemning the act, but for the most part, they're excusing, condoning, and even reveling in it.
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Jul 2, 2014 04:47
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comments here if Google Translate is to be believed
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The Insect Court posted:Are there still collectivized kibbutz in Israel? Or is 'kibbutz' now just a synonym for a small farming town? A kibbutz is either currently or was in the past collectivized. More and more of them have become just small rural towns, with fewer and fewer of the trappings of collective living and shared work - others have formally disbanded as Kibbutzes. I wouldn't say "farming towns", because quite a few of them have more to do with factories that they own rather than agriculture. What's funny is that even the collectivized ones ended up using so much temp labor that they became basically a kind of extended family business. Those are the most "successful" ones.
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Jul 2, 2014 04:57
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Crowsbeak posted:While I do read mondoweiss occasionally. It really is an eye opener. I mean I don't doubt there were plenty of Palestinians who probably were fine with the deaths of the three boys, but it almost makes me wonder how common the sentiments from these Israeli facebookers are. I hope these are your equivalent to freep. I can tell you that when I was waiting for a doctor's appointment the morning of the boarding of the Mavi Marmara, many of those around me were egging each other on in wishing bad things to come to them, including burning the ship with its crew. Out of ten people there, it was only another person and myself who were vocally opposed to this. This is probably a more representative sample than my actual friends, most of whom do not think this way.
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Jul 2, 2014 05:11
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Spaceman Future! posted:Well it sounds like a pretty easy destruction, given that a ton of major political players fervently announce that if Jewish citizens ever fall below some mythic 60% of the population line that Israel is dust in the wind. I mean, by that metric, Palestinians should be loving as often as possible, they can screw their way to the big V. Mutual out of control breeding as a means of conflict resolution really seems much less scarring for all parties involved. Well, the two most fertile demographics seem to be ultra-orthodox Jews and Arab Muslims. Hypothetically, the former don't really care that much for Zionism, although they have recently gone further to the right, perhaps for pragmatic reasons, and they do seem to have been working well together now that they're both in the opposition in the Knesset. So, hell, maybe it'll all work out swimmingly!     on the left posted:There is a /pol/project: Open Borders For Israel Yeah, none of my Facebook friends who are involved in these issues have "liked" this page, so I'm guessing reddit/4chan is just as detached from reality in this as in their other "projects".
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Jul 2, 2014 06:01
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SedanChair posted:Nobody has said that, you're barfing AIPAC again. The fact of the matter is that most states in the UN are terrible, but you are going to have to work really hard to show me a framework where you wipe them off the map without causing more atrocities and bloodshed.
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Jul 2, 2014 06:16
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