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Xandu posted:I think you're right. If they were really killed soon after the kidnapping (it couldn't have been immediately since one of them called the police soon after), it kind of screams amateur abductors who realized they got in over their heads. Just wait till you see Netanyahu's props for the press conference. Let's just say you might be seeing a standee of the leader of a certain Gaza Strip based organisation...
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Jul 1, 2014 00:46
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Israelis, like the settlers of all European colonies implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) want to eventually take all the native population's land and property. As they become more established it becomes more overt but the desire is always there. In this context the peace process is an interesting modern PR cover for colonialism. Whereas in the past the natives were violent savages (because they reacted to the violent appropriation of their land and resources) who needed civilising through sublimation into the white settler state nowadays they are bad faith negotiators because Israel has no desire to adhere to any agreement that is negotiated. Stop hitting yourselves natives. The pretense put forward by Zionists that Israelis are losing faith in the 'peace process' is made mockery of by A cursory glance at Israeli actions. For instance the reaction to the Oslo accords, a great deal for Israel (if it wanted any kind of negotiated settlement) and a lovely one for Palestine yet the Israeli reaction was to assassinate the leader who negotiated the historic accord and quickly abandon all commitment to it.
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Jul 1, 2014 09:42
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TheImmigrant posted:What I find fascinating about the DD Che Brigade is that even a thread about murdered Israeli teenagers is seen as a forum to express rabid, shrieking hatred of Israel. More Palestinians have been killed in the search for the settlers than settlers were murdered. That isn't even to mention the vastly greater number of Palestinians killed than Israelis in the wider I/P conflict. Also: https://twitter.com/bencnn/status/484015536217403393/photo/1
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Jul 1, 2014 18:18
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Xandu posted:Interesting choice to define them solely as settlers. Why so? They were part of a group of people specifically engaged in a political activity adjudged illegal by the international community that is solely focused on taking more and more land and strategic resources (especially water) away from Palestinians and thus most likely to incite a response from Palestinians, though as yet we still have no proof they were killed by Palestinians. That they were illegal settlers is wholly relevant to the context of their death. Xandu posted:Teenagers shouldn't be killed because of their parents' political choices. But the choices of their parents were a factor in their being so endangered. That their parents, who chose to live in illegal settlements were then sent all expenses paid to lobby the UN is also very relevant to the wider context of the I/P conflict. No one is sending any Palestinian parents who were living within the boundaries Israel and the international community allowed them when their children were killed by an airstrike after all. ReV VAdAUL fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 19:34
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Xandu posted:And 2 of them were also minors. You could use the same logic to justify droning Awlakis son, but it's make you a monster. Why would it make me a monster to highlight the fact that political actions of parents define the context of the death of their children? I would be a monster if I condoned it in either case. It is however a pertinent detail worth remembering, the specific actions of the illegal settlers and the Israel government that condones and supports them contributed to this event happening if they were murdered by Palestinian militants. Netanyahu, with the support of many Israelis, is launching airstrikes justified by the unsupported allegation that Palestinians committed the murder thus even if Palestinians did not do this it is necessary to highlight these facts so as to highlight what a poor justification this is on Netanyahu's part.
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Jul 1, 2014 19:44
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Omi-Polari posted:From what I've read, he's justifying it as a response to an increase in rocket strikes. It's certainly some timing, though... Yeah, that's true my bad. Let me amend myself to say the general Israeli anger and desire for retribution against HAMAS requires the context of the three murder victims being settlers / the children of settlers being highlighted.
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Jul 1, 2014 19:50
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Xandu posted:Ok, but again, you can use that same logic to justify murdering children of terrorists. and that's a pretty monstrous attitude. Would it still be okay if they'd been 5 instead of 16? What if they were infants? Who is saying the deaths were in any way justified? If a child dies in a pool because their parents were negligent with repairs and caused the heater to electrocute them (or whatever I am not knowledgeable about pools) then thats something you highlight when the parents try to sue the people who installed the pool. No one is saying the child deserved to die, merely highlighting what caused it to happen. Sometimes a context can be changed so that less children die, sometimes the context is such that the cause of death is wholly outside of the parent's control but it is always important to be as accurate as possible about that context.
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Jul 1, 2014 19:56
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:Aren't there official documents showing Israel tried to sell nukes to Apartheid South Africa? Kinda hard to sell them if you don't have 'em. Also why was Mordecai Vanunu in prison if the nukes he revealed don't exist? Nonetheless the US continues to push for a 'Nuclear free middle east' without any mention of Israel disarming or even submitting to weapons inspections.
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Jul 2, 2014 16:58
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McDowell posted:No Arab countries assimilated the Palestinian refugees, which proves they are subhuman nonentities. All I'm saying is that if you Libs let us have Grossdeutschland back maybe we can find our way to showing some support for Palestinians.
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Jul 3, 2014 00:18
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Calling a colonial state like Israel fascist is interesting in the sense that a lot of the stuff the Nazis get most heavily criticised for was simply applying colonial policies to white people. So while you can Godwin Israel by saying they're doing stuff like the Nazis did the Nazis were broadly copying what earlier European / white dominated colonial states (Australia, Canada, etc) were doing. For instance the causes of the Mau Mau uprising and the British suppression of it during the 1950s is a good example of "fascist" tactics being used to manage and control colonies. ReV VAdAUL fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 11:20
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Baudolino posted:In part because of the cold war which made the conflict important to the wider ideological squabble between west and the Soviet Union ( since the US the USSR backed different horses). I can`t think of any other reason for why politcal parties in European countries with no involvement in the conflict all feel like they have to take some kind of stance on the I/P conflict. Not just because of that ofcourse but it must have played a signifanct role in keeping people in Europe and elsewhere interested. Left wing groups in Europe will be aware of their nation's own colonial past and the suffering it brought and will thus be more motivated to prevent another European colony committing those same atrocities nowadays. There's also the issue of the holocaust being used as carte blanche for Israel doing whatever it wants in the region and getting free submarines and so on from Germany and the holocaust is a very pertinent issue for a lot of Europeans. Plus Israel seeks various kinds of funding from the EU which will in term lead to great connections to the EU and greater scrutiny from the EU.
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Jul 4, 2014 22:18
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It is noteworthy the comparison offered is between qassams damaging property and air strikes killing multiple people. How many Palestinian lives is an Israeli car worth?
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Jul 8, 2014 08:03
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Volkerball posted:Pretty sure around 1,000 civilians have been killed on the Israeli side. You guys are making up this distinction between Israeli airstrikes killing dozens a pop, and people throwing rocks. Obviously if they're sending rockets capable of destroying multiple cars at a time, they're capable of killing bystanders, and that's reprehensible no matter how you slice it. I think Israel provokes these attacks through the continuation of their policies that oppress the Palestinian people, but the tactics that Palestinians have used at times are open and shut revenge-based. Not military operations designed to weaken Israel and make it clear that Palestinians will not live peacefully under their reign, in attempts to force them to the bargaining table. The only reason militias aren't using the same attacks that Israel does is due to logistics, not any sort of moral qualms about killing loads of innocent people. It's important to recognize that dynamic instead of claiming the Palestinians are blameless, because both sides are going to have to make concessions and work against the hatred they have for each other, even if one sides hands are bloodier. The logistics of the matter is the issue at hand. Perhaps Palestinians would do the same if they were capable but if they had the logistics to do so Israel would be much more willing to negotiate with them. In terms of reality rather than hypothetical Israel's military advantage is such that while they can destroy swathes of infrastructure or lives at will Palestinians occasionally inflict property damage. This behooves them, from their position of safety and security to take greater risks in securing peace. Israel is slowly but surely able to grind any compromise or concession out of Palestine that they desire due to their military and technological advantages. For there to be any compromise on the Israeli side Israel has to choose to take that moral path. Right now they are choosing not to, using their near total security to wither away the natives.
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Jul 8, 2014 08:38
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Volkerball posted:Palestinians occasionally inflict property damage. Lol. You do realize this recent salvo started when 3 Israeli teenagers were kidnapped and murdered right? There is, as yet, no proof that any Palestinians had anything to do with their deaths. Further more than 3 Palestinians died during the IDF "search" for the bodies, another Palestinian was burnt alive in retribution and dozens of Palestinians are going to die in the escalating IDF collective punishment air strikes. But hey you then go on to spin the standard Zionist line of "if only the Palestinians would stop resisting and die quietly everything would be fine". West Bank Palestinians have felt no benefit from the Israeli government, who refuses to negotiate with them, or Israeli public under a leadership that is so quiescent as almost be Israeli puppets. Nothing Palestinians can do will be good enough for Israel, there will always be some excuse to destroy them.
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Jul 8, 2014 11:30
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If all Palestinian rocket attacks stopped a new excuse would be found. From the perspective of Israel in 1948 Israel in 2014 has achieved total victory, the boasts made on independence day back in May by Israelis show an awareness of this. Israelis know they have a very high standard of living compared to the rest of the Middle East (and most of the world), they know they have a healthy and strong economy far in excess of any of their regional rivals and most of all they know they have utter Military dominance AND the near unquestioning backing and funding of the most powerful nation on Earth. Israel has won, Palestinians and the wider Arab world have been utterly defeated. Yet this is not enough to consider showing Palestinians mercy. The threats the initial Zionist colonists knew to their existence are simply unimaginable to modern Israelis. If yet another victory was achieved and the very mild chance a rocket would even hurt them were to come to an end Israelis would not then change their perspective, none of their other, arguably larger victories have changed their mind so why would this?
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Jul 8, 2014 17:58
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razorrozar posted:We can understand and even agree with the motivation without condoning the violence. Why is that so hard to understand? The violence of Palestinians is focused upon and demonised while the far greater violence of Israel is just taken as a lamentable fact and often justified as an outcome of much lesser Palestinian violence. Palestinians are slowly but surely being exterminated but their rockets that might occasionally kill an Israeli are discussed as a principle factor in the debate. It is farcical. A century ago posters ITT would be sighing and saying yes the killings and collective punishment after the Boxer rebellion were heavy handed but if the Chinese hadn't been violent towards Europeans then it wouldn't have had to happen. What after all have their attacks got them anyway? Europeans are even more powerful in China than they were before, if the Chinese were to capitulate fully Europeans would feel less afraid and be much nicer to them I'm sure.
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Jul 8, 2014 18:33
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Volkerball posted:It's because it's focused on and demonized that it's so against their interest for them to continue to do it. Sure the US would take forever to come around, and Israel is going to have to make concessions kicking and screaming unless the electorate drastically shifts, but people and countries aren't going empathize with Palestinians like they should specifically because of these attacks. Israel is more than capable of indicting themselves if given the chance without Palestinians hurting their own reputation and making things worse for themselves in the process. If the rocket attacks stop another excuse will be found to excuse Israeli killing of Palestinians and destruction of their infrastructure. You yourself have been touting the as yet unsolved murder of three settlers as just such an excusing factor ITT. If necessary settler "price tag" attacks will be ramped up to elicit a response large enough to justify another collective punishment. Israeli aggression was justified because of the existential threat Arab armies posed. Then it was justified because of the threat from the PLO. Then it was justified by suicide bombings. Now it is justified by rocket attacks. Will you really pretend it wont be justified by something else if rocket attacks stop?
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Jul 8, 2014 18:45
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GaussianCopula posted:I encourage everyone to install the app "Red Alert: Israel" on their iOS device (dunno if there is an android app). I just did this yesterday to experience get even a glimpse at the daily terror that the Palestinians are bringing to the civil population. It gives you an alert everytime rockets are flying to attack civilians in Israel. So on the one side we have people who probably don't have electricity let alone smart phones dying by the dozen each day and on the other we have an iPhone app that is probably less relevant to Israelis dying than a calorie counting app.
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Jul 9, 2014 11:52
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c19th theimmigrant posted:The European powers have the means but not the will to exterminate the Chinese whereas the boxer rebellion and attempted mass poisonings of European colonists clearly show the Chinese have the will but not the means. So Zionists are now at the point of slandering their victims (the previous taking point was how Palestinians wanted peace and were forced to war by HAMAS, do make up your minds) and demanding praise for showing the self restraint to only pursue mass killing as collective punishment rather than full on extermination.
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Jul 10, 2014 13:03
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New Division posted:I personally think that Israel is going to weaken Hamas to the point where it loses influence to... even more radical factions. Hamas might even be absorbed by another group due to their deteriorating finances and political position. Fatah will be discredited too, but the Israelis will keep them alive as a sort of acceptable outlet for Palestinian voices. This is probably Israel's goal at this point, radicalise Palestinians to the point they're unpalatable to Western liberals and thus minimise international opposition to their extermination.
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Jul 10, 2014 23:19
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Gonzo McFee posted:Saying people disagreeing with Israel are "Armchair Jihadists " is pretty racist. Eh, it's too farcical to be racist, the idea only militant Muslims could find reason to fault with Israeli mass murderer of Palestinians is too silly to be offensive. 'Oppose slavery eh? I knew you were a black panther!'
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Jul 10, 2014 23:33
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New Division posted:I can't see resettlement happening. Even Netanyahu's not that dumb. Dead settlers have provided an amazing excuse to start bombing this time around...
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Jul 10, 2014 23:35
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New Division posted:After all the trouble they went through taking the settlers in Gaza out just under a decade ago, I can't imagine them letting settlers back into Gaza. Kadima was a big thing a decade ago, now the extreme right is in the ascendant and Kadima is nowhere. There's hints Netanyahu did not expect things to go this far and he certainly didn't seem to want a ground invasion a week ago. It is certainly possible the settler lobby is powerful enough that they will be able to get back into Gaza.
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Jul 10, 2014 23:44
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illrepute posted:That's actually pretty interesting. Contrast it to 2006, when Washington specifically delayed United Nations proceedings in order to give Israel more time to attempt to pull a victory out of Lebanon. Or, hell, even 2008 or 2012, when the U.S. basically looked the other way and whistled. Iron Dome is being too effective, nearly a hundred people killed vs property damage is enough to make most people who aren't straight up 'kill all Arabs' uneasy. A ground invasion is very hard to justify in that light and gives the state department a PR problem. And/or after Israel so blatantly threw his peace initiative and other general uncooperativeness Obama is tired of Netanyahu's poo poo. Campaign for Romney and you get to have less fun.
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Jul 11, 2014 09:28
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Volkerball posted:The US has said that Hamas was involved in the kidnapping as well as "praising" it fwiw. Evidence of HAMAS's guilt was discovered 45 minutes after the abduction in conjunction with the discovery of a Libyan plot to blow up a flight over the Gulf of Tonkin. Something something Team B.
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Jul 11, 2014 10:15
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FRINGE posted:This is important. Theres no "terror" in saying "Uh.. Huh? Wasn't us man." On balance that some Palestinian group did this is probable though given HAMAS's reaction it's pretty dubious they specifically did it. If an Israeli serial killer did it or something else odd like that happened we won't hear about for a decade or more. The key thing is that extraordinary proof is required to start something like this and instead we've got Israel saying they've totally have proof but no one can see it. Such behaviour requires extreme scepticism about who did the killings. ReV VAdAUL fucked around with this message at 10:45 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 10:42
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Crowsbeak posted:I guess what I want to know is, will Israel show that the world it has no sense of irony at all in the next decade-or two? This hatred is going beyond just, (keep them in their place). It seems likely, the newest generation lives in an Israel that would be unimaginably safe and prosperous to the original Zionist settlers and yet they seem to hold even more hatred than those to whom Arab armies did pose an existential threat. Gaza is already blockaded and bombed with impunity to now close to zero consequence for the Israelis who chant 'death to Arabs'. Hell, it's pretty worrying what IDF soldiers might do if there's a ground invasion as part of this collective punishment.
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Jul 11, 2014 15:32
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rscott posted:I'm sure that hospital is a legitimate base for launching rockets or mortars or something and Israel isn't just putting another notch on their bedpost of war crimes. According to international law are hospitals ever legitimate targets in times of war? Like a hospital is a part of fighting infrastructure but it is also a building full of injured civilians and doctors etc.
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Jul 11, 2014 19:20
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icantfindaname posted:It's not like Israel recognizes any sort of international law to begin with I am also genuinely curious if there are rules about that sort of thing.
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Jul 11, 2014 19:28
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DarkCrawler posted:Is there actually anything in this thread that has bern anti-semitic or just anti-zionist? Isn't the anti-Zionist contention that Israel is just another European colony and nothing really at all to do with Judaism anyway?
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Jul 11, 2014 23:49
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HootTheOwl posted:Maybe, but these rocket attacks have become ridiculously disastrous and to continue them shows an utter disrespect for their own people. If the rocket attacks stopped unconditionally Israel would boast about how effective their collective punishment was and next time Palestinians annoyed them, perhaps just by being alive, they'd state that it is unfortunately necessary to begin the bombing again because it is the only thing Palestinians understand.
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Jul 12, 2014 00:12
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The Insect Court posted:
So that's why Zionists itt accuse anyone critical of Israel of being Che worshipping communists who are also Jihadis as well as naive do gooder liberals who are simultaneously vehemently anti-Semitic! It all makes sense now.
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Jul 12, 2014 01:27
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My Imaginary GF posted:Care, by which acts of arrest are included? I'm trying, but its a drat hard task for me to remain consist in my views on state action against non-state actors. If one has absolute military and economic control of a populated region as the outcome of deliberate action then one has a duty of care and a moral responsibility for the well being of that state. This responsibility is even stronger when one has and is pursuing actions that undermine and destroy the physical infrastructure and civil government.
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Jul 12, 2014 10:15
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Cat Mattress posted:Maybe the Israeli should give Palestinian all their land back so that terrorists can physically go to some empty area instead of "hiding behind civilians". Uh, Israel has already offered such a fair exchange: several square miles of the Negev desert for all of Jerusalem and a few other bits of the West bank.
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Jul 12, 2014 10:28
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A man shouts abuse at a group of disabled people. The disabled people swear back at him so he pulls out a hammer and starts beating them to death. Watching the scene his friend wonders aloud why the disabled people wont stop shouting mean things at her friend, she is certain this would bring about a peaceful soltuion.
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Jul 12, 2014 14:19
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OwlBot 2000 posted:True, but both Hollande and Cameron have also come out to defend Israel's actions in this conflict. Hollande the least popular president ever and Cameron a man who couldn't secure a majority after 13 years of Labour rule and a financial crisis. They might not be representative of the wider population's views.
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Jul 12, 2014 18:43
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Xander77 posted:Population that's under rocket fire don't generally have that much perspective (and after all, it's an attack that's intended to kill them, even if it doesn't succeed). The society of the harmonious fist or 'boxers' have only primitive weapons but they have been trying to kill the European settlers. As far as the European settlers are concerned it is only the valor and daring do of the European soldiers that is keeping the casualty ratio so lop sided. Yes far more Sudanese troops have been killed than British troops but the Dervishes are trying to kill British colonists and as far as the colonists are concerned it is only the gatling guns and hotchkiss rifles keeping them safe. Ok the US Army is easily defeating the Native Americans but you've got to understand in the past the natives scalped people and even raided towns! Americans only see the vastly higher Native American casualty rate as a result of brave American troops bravely defeating vicious savages who would kill them if they had American weapons and logistics. Chinese troops in Manchuria are poorly organised and are being slaughtered by Japanese forces but the Japanese public perceive China as a genuine threat. There's a long history of enmity between the two nations and Japan is the superior military force now, if the Chinese surrendered unconditionally I'm sure a peaceful solution could be found. Etc etc.
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Jul 13, 2014 10:59
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'Evil Palestinian children deliberately throw themselves at IDF precision munitions in an anti-Semitic and terroristic manner.' There's probably a year left until that isn't parody.
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Jul 16, 2014 23:57
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Golda Meir posted:“We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.”
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Jul 17, 2014 00:38
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ReidRansom posted:I have to wonder what the disconnect (apologies to ReindeerF) is. What do our governments know that we don't that causes them to so strongly support Israel when so many people don't? Is it just a generational thing? Is it duress? I get the US, we're nationally loving stupid, but there are a lot of other countries where public opinion seems to be largely on the right side of this. I suppose it has gotten to the point where the voting public of most nations is now akin to the 'arab street' whose leaders ignore their wishes because Israel are the good guys, so sayeth America.
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Jul 17, 2014 22:33
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