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Evil Sagan posted:I'm sure other people here can come up with examples of RPGs that don't come stained with oppressive attitudes. For those who want to vote with their wallets, should we cook up a list of suggested game designers/publishers? The White Wolf team behind Blood & Smoke (Vampire update) are pretty swell in LGBT representation from what fans tell me (and from what I've seen in their earlier products). Pathfinder's trying this and succeeding along the way (transgender NPC in demonhunter adventure path, for ex) despite earlier hiccups. Also, Pathfinder dev telling off a homophobic fan and saying that their products aren't for him. And a more recent example answering a quoted grognards.txt accusation of a political "agenda." Mikan (Last Stand guy) cares very much about fair representation in his RPGs, and made Inverse World. Green Ronin is LGBT-friendly, and Mutants and Masterminds and Blue Rose were notable in 2005 for including homosexual heroes. Steve Kensen talks about this in an article here. Libertad! fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 01:47
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While people are talking about pundit and grogs, there's something I've always wondered... Why do they even care about new editions of DnD? I mean, it seems they all worship at the altar of Gygax and subscribe to some previous holy book, be it BECMI, ADnD, 3.x or Pathfinder, so why do they get so butthurt that new editions don't work the way they want? It's not like WotC is sending stormtroopers to burn all their old books, it's not like there isn't a metric boatload of previous content for those editions, and it's not like there aren't tons of people out there still producing stuff for them. What the gently caress are they really afraid of?
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Jul 4, 2014 01:54
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Bucnasti posted:What the gently caress are they really afraid of? Their worldview being challenged.
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Jul 4, 2014 01:55
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Bucnasti posted:While people are talking about pundit and grogs, there's something I've always wondered... That the public image of D&D will be different than the one they know and love. "Hey, ever played D&D?" "You mean that game with Dragonborn and Warlords?" "FFFFFUUUUU-!" It's actually weird, because I hang out on Min-Max Boards. They do not like 4th Edition at all, but they almost never talk about it. They don't go out and troll other forums or bemoan the "death of D&D." Instead they stick to talking about and playing 3.5, a game they're comfortable with and love. Basically, the greatest haters of newer Editions are the folks who obsessively follow its every development, or spend nearly as much time hating on it as focusing on the games they do enjoy. Libertad! fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 01:56
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Man, so I really didn't like the 'sex' paragraphs in the new D&D-- some choices of language I was not happy with at all (like hermaphroditic, or the dwarf misgendering joke, or 'man trapped in a female body'). So when RPZip was talking about jargon and page space and all of that on IRC I was like 'gently caress it, I can do it in the same amount of words'. It's not perfect, but hey~ (I also put it up on my g+ here) quote:Original:
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Jul 4, 2014 02:11
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ProfessorCirno posted:I will not be buying this or any other WotC products for the foreseen future. Thanks for the heads up. Same, and I've posted about it elsewhere. It's a drop in the bucket but if I can convince some people to boycott the product that's a victory in my mind.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:13
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You also might want to send an email to WotC or tweet at them. I know that in the past I've sent in emails and gotten replies directly from Worth Wollpert (Magic Online guy) so I'm pretty sure that someone actually reads them.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:22
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We'll see-- I feel like right after release of a product is probably the worst time to send a thing like that though, if you don't want it to be drowned in a sea of "But why didn't you do what I wanted?"
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Jul 4, 2014 02:27
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e: I'm sorry, I just needed to get that off my chest before I blew up.
Evil Mastermind fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 02:37
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neongrey posted:We'll see-- I feel like right after release of a product is probably the worst time to send a thing like that though, if you don't want it to be drowned in a sea of "But why didn't you do what I wanted?" Well, lots of folks don't keep up on Internet drama, and may not know what's the deal with Pundit and Zak S. Although the former is disliked by a lot of forums (rpg.net, The Gaming Den, Circus Maximus, this one, etc). Pointing to examples of their most negative behavior would be a better idea in regards to people who ask "what's up with those guys? Why are they bad?" Libertad! fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 02:37
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I'm not talking about the two consultants, I'm talking about the sex paragraph in chargen. Which is innocent of their wrongdoings. Ignorant. But innocent.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:43
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Spincut posted:What do you mean by box sets? Like something with some pre-gen characters, some sort of adventure framework for a new DM to use to get themselves on the right track, some dice. The sort of stuff you see in like the Star Wars Edge of the Empire box or the 4th Edition Essentials Redbox. I know for a lot of these games you can get the entire game for like $20, but it's hard to talk up books to people who maybe don't have a ton of RPG experience.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:51
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I would say Monsterhearts does 90% of that with just a little paperback book. Playbooks and skins are designed for ease of pickup play, after all.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:52
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Misandu posted:Like something with some pre-gen characters, some sort of adventure framework for a new DM to use to get themselves on the right track, some dice. The sort of stuff you see in like the Star Wars Edge of the Empire box or the 4th Edition Essentials Redbox. I know for a lot of these games you can get the entire game for like $20, but it's hard to talk up books to people who maybe don't have a ton of RPG experience. Hell, just getting paper copies into FLGSs can be pretty difficult. I have seen Fiasco, the Companion, and Dogs in the Vineyard in terms of "storygames" on the shelf. I guess maybe DFRPG but I don't count that. I would love to see a Fiasco boxed set with detached playsets, oversized tilt tables, and custom dice, but I dunno if it'll ever happen.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:54
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Libertad! posted:Well, lots of folks don't keep up on Internet drama, and may not know what's the deal with Pundit and Zak S. Although the former is disliked by a lot of forums (rpg.net, The Gaming Den, Circus Maximus, this one, etc). FWIW, a simple group of links of "this is what these assholes do" would make things way easier. Evil Mastermind posted:It's not just the fact that they thanked Zak and Tarnowski, two guys who bully and harass. Legit do you mind if I copy+paste this elsewhere to help point out why I'm not supporting this game?
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Jul 4, 2014 02:55
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ProfessorCirno posted:Legit do you mind if I copy+paste this elsewhere to help point out why I'm not supporting this game? At this point, sure.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:56
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ProfessorCirno posted:FWIW, a simple group of links of "this is what these assholes do" would make things way easier. Now I'm wondering if I shouldn't set up/curate a repository for terrible people in this industry. Just a list of dudes and their offenses, things they've done and said, and stuff like that. RPG_eBooks, except all the quotes are sourced and tagged.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:59
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And publicly searchable. Might as well google bomb the assholes.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:00
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Reene posted:And publicly searchable. Hilariously, Zak S has threatened to google bomb people and Google looks unfavorably on that sort of thing so his blog and other avenues have gotten hit with blockers to prevent him from actually doing it. Yeah, class act.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:03
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Evil Mastermind posted:God, gently caress this hobby. I know I say it a lot but goddamn it feels like it's actively trying to push me out. Off the top of my head: Literature has Lovecraft. Music has Wagner. Even chess has Bobby Fischer. Those are all horrible, toxic human beings that are legitimized on a much bigger scale than what we have going on here (that Looking for Bobby Fischer movie fails to mention even once that the guy was a loving anti-semite). Don't start going "gently caress this hobby" just yet; this kind of situation is something that people have to deal with in every area of human achievement. That said! I really don't know how it is in the US, where the RPG-playing community is bigger, but over here, being the Guy Who GMs and the Guy Who Brings New People Into RPGs gives you much, much more power and influence than what D&D decides to do. What this hobby needs is new people, people with fresh heads. When you start playing with new people, you're their coach, so to speak – what you say is more important than what's written in the rules. And as for veteran players, finding a group is so hard that when a GM pops up people will play whatever they're willing to run. What I'm saying is if you tell everyone that D&D sucks, play with people new to the hobby, and play good games, the impact you'll do on the RPG community not only compensates for WotC's (and other's) failings, it goes beyond them for a net positive. It's how I think, anyway.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:10
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Cyphoderus posted:Off the top of my head: Literature has Lovecraft. Music has Wagner. Even chess has Bobby Fischer. Those are all horrible, toxic human beings that are legitimized on a much bigger scale than what we have going on here (that Looking for Bobby Fischer movie fails to mention even once that the guy was a loving anti-semite). Don't start going "gently caress this hobby" just yet; this kind of situation is something that people have to deal with in every area of human achievement. The problem with that is this poo poo is endemic to the drat hobby. For every Zak S. there's a thousand people churning content for Grogs.txt, for every Pundit a dozen dudes threatening legal action and private investigators for not putting out a kickstarter fast enough. It's a death by a thousand harassments on twitter.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:15
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It's sad that Zak is pretty much the cause of or related to every meltdown post I have here. It's sadder that it's been more than one meltdown post.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:15
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Mr. Maltose posted:The problem with that is this poo poo is endemic to the drat hobby. For every Zak S. there's a thousand people churning content for Grogs.txt, for every Pundit a dozen dudes threatening legal action and private investigators for not putting out a kickstarter fast enough. It's a death by a thousand harassments on twitter. But you also have to remember that for every shitheel that makes noise on the internet there's ten perfectly rational people who are happy and have better things to do than post on crappy little websites.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:17
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Bucnasti posted:But you also have to remember that for every shitheel that makes noise on the internet there's ten perfectly rational people who are happy and have better things to do than post on crappy little websites. Most of them have better things to do than elfgames as well.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:19
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Bucnasti posted:But you also have to remember that for every shitheel that makes noise on the internet there's ten perfectly rational people who are happy and have better things to do than post on crappy little websites. Yeah, but the happy people aren't the problem.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:19
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EM, apologies in advance and you certainly don't have to, but do you by any chance have links or whatever to Zak S's crusade antics? It looks like he turned most of his poo poo to private, and the KOREA TABLETOP GAMING page doesn't seem to believe this kinda poo poo actually happens.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:24
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Evil Mastermind posted:Yeah, but the happy people aren't the problem. What I'm saying is that the unhappy people aren't really a problem either. Or at least not enough of a problem that you should give up on the hobby, or cause yourself stress over it. I mean yes they suck and they're toxic bags of dick-poo poo, but in the grand scheme of things they are beyond insignificant, even their most monumental successes (like getting their name in a book) is still meaningless. Nine out of ten fans of the hobby will never hear about them, and will never care. These are people that will never be happy because their problems are not with the hobby they're with themselves and their own powerlessness in the world. I read grogs.txt and I can only feel pity for these guys. They will never understand how irrelevant they really are, they're not worth getting angry about.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:40
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Literally nobody that just plays RPGs every now and then know who Zak S or RPG Pundit are. This doesn't excuse WotC for shouting them out or anything, but they're only really ruining the hobby if you pay attention to their infinitesimally small fiefdoms. I've kinda hated grognards.txt for years because I think it gives those people a larger readership than they would ever have otherwise.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:43
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Or you make small print RPGs.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:44
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ProfessorCirno posted:EM, apologies in advance and you certainly don't have to, but do you by any chance have links or whatever to Zak S's crusade antics? It looks like he turned most of his poo poo to private, and the KOREA TABLETOP GAMING page doesn't seem to believe this kinda poo poo actually happens. No I don't. I know it's on G+, I think it might have been in one of Sage's threads. We have each other blocked (at least, I've blocked him), and he's smart enough to only share most of his poo poo with limited circles. Someone mentioned it in a different G+ thread and given his history I see no reason to doubt it's true.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:48
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Swagger Dagger posted:Literally nobody that just plays RPGs every now and then know who Zak S or RPG Pundit are. The flagship RPG product gave them money and put their names in their big release book. Yes, they are tiny voices. And they were given the mother of all RPG shoutouts.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:57
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Rulebook Heavily posted:The flagship RPG product gave them money and put their names in their big release book. And without properly attributing them as whatever Zak S's real name would be if he had worked out what a name is in that context and John Tarnowski. I mean, I know people who were credited in Star Wars books for their online stuff, but they were credited by name, not by handle.
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Jul 4, 2014 03:59
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I fail to see how that make this any less lovely.
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Jul 4, 2014 04:00
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Swagger Dagger posted:Literally nobody that just plays RPGs every now and then know who Zak S or RPG Pundit are. I'd never heard of either until today. Then again I mostly stick to here or occasionally google search RPG.net for specific games that've caught my interest. 
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Jul 4, 2014 04:03
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Effectronica posted:And without properly attributing them as whatever Zak S's real name would be if he had worked out what a name is in that context and John Tarnowski. I mean, I know people who were credited in Star Wars books for their online stuff, but they were credited by name, not by handle. They were attributed under their most easily googlable identity and they presumably want people to google them and asked for their handles in there for that specific reason. I've worked with an artist who wanted a similar arrangement.
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Jul 4, 2014 04:04
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Rulebook Heavily posted:They were attributed under their most easily googlable identity and they presumably want people to google them and asked for their handles in there for that specific reason. I've worked with an artist who wanted a similar arrangement. Exactly. They want exposure rather than proper credit, apart from John Tarnowski, the RPG Pundit, having a complex about the use of his real name by English-speakers.
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Jul 4, 2014 04:06
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While it's somewhat comforting to remind oneself that Pundit and Zak aren't the easiest guys to just stumble onto, I think it's kind of hosed up that the only reliable solution to avoiding their bullshit is to literally never go to public RPG-talking places ever again. And to not buy or talk about the most common RPG product. And putting them in the de facto RPG flagship is probably not insignificant exposure, outside the usual gossip circles online. EF double B
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Jul 4, 2014 04:09
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Be the change you want to be, motherfuckers. Run some games that address the issues you care about, publish your own games or supplements on the indie markets, get at least one new person a year to play our dumb games of pretend, 'cause that's what it takes to make this hobby not suck. d20 roll dice erryday
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Jul 4, 2014 04:14
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I don't know if anyone cares, but I decided to try my hand at running a contest. It's based around D&D 4th edition as a whole "new edition out today, let's not forget the old" thing as well as a pun of the 4th of July. So, if you're interested, I would love to see your entry. If there is something I did wrong rules-wise, don't be afraid to mention.
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Jul 4, 2014 04:15
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grassy gnoll posted:Be the change you want to be, motherfuckers. Run some games that address the issues you care about, publish your own games or supplements on the indie markets, get at least one new person a year to play our dumb games of pretend, 'cause that's what it takes to make this hobby not suck. People are already doing this and you know what they loving get? Twitter harassment and threatening emails and bombardments from personal fanbases from shitlords like the ones that are now getting money for appearing in the biggest RPG product of the year. The acknowledgment earned is that there's two paragraphs of wonky text in the book and then a dude who actively stalks trans people online and tells them to commit suicide is lurking in the credits. So you know. gently caress you. But just a little.
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Jul 4, 2014 04:23
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