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Jimbozig posted:Because being explicitly inclusive is better than just assuming that everyone knows to be inclusive. Rule 1: Don't be a giant wang. Everyone came here to have fun, that means don't be a jerk.
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Jul 4, 2014 00:47
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Deptfordx posted:Also in all the previews, do we have a definitive list of all the Character classes that are coming in the new Players Handbook. We've actually seen the Sorcerer's Wild Magic table and the Warlock's fluff page.
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Jul 4, 2014 00:50
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sansuki posted:Rule 1: Don't be a giant wang. Everyone came here to have fun, that means don't be a jerk. Unfortunately, if we've learned anything after posting on the internet, it's that rules like these have to be explicitly and carefully enumerated otherwise they'll be forgone completely.
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Jul 4, 2014 00:50
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There's a literal side panel on page 5 about how wonderful magic and magic users are
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Jul 4, 2014 00:51
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sansuki posted:Rule 1: Don't be a giant wang. Everyone came here to have fun, that means don't be a e: More seriously, I wish they'd actually make magic magical rather than just telling us how magical it is.
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Jul 4, 2014 00:52
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sansuki posted:Why is this a thing? I don't mind it, I think its neat, but why did they have to take the time and make this a thing in the book? Some course correction is necessary for a hobby where stuff like "Women receive -2 to strength" and "The female paladin is raped into losing her powers" exist.
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Jul 4, 2014 00:55
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LFK posted:Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Rogue, Ranger, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard Based just on the fluff description warlock sounds pretty cool with some legit story hooks
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Jul 4, 2014 01:01
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Am I missing something with fighters? How is this an enriching improvement over 4th Edition?  quote:... as fighters, they all share an unparalleled mastery with weapons and armor, and a thorough knowledge of the skills of combat. And they are well acquainted with death, both meting it out and staring it defiantly in the face. Congratulations you can add up to 10% to a dice roll, yay. You get to roll a few more dice at high levels. quote:(Wizards') mightiest spells change one substance into another, call meteors down from the sky, or open portals to other worlds. Spells everywhere. I have a tiny forlorn hope they will release 4E into the community, but they probably won't because it would fragment their last remaining customers. I can't see how anyone would willingly take Next over 3.5 or Pathfinder though, let alone over 4E which gave everyone awesome stuff to do.
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Jul 4, 2014 01:11
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sansuki posted:Why is this a thing? I don't mind it, I think its neat, but why did they have to take the time and make this a thing in the book? Why should it not be a thing?
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Jul 4, 2014 01:16
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Why should it not be a thing? I think the initial negative reaction most people have is to the rather inelegant and awkward way the subject is just kinda thrown out there out of the blue like some giant non sequitur. Much like the rest of the packet they don't take much effort to approach the subject and just kind of vomit words.
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Jul 4, 2014 01:27
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Yeah, but that still leaves open the question as to why this was such an offense as opposed to the entire half-page dedicated to telling people how awesome spellcasters are for being able to help fighters. It's a game where crystal people, dragon people and element-people have all been written about at length. Real people? Hoo boy, talk about a can o' worms.
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Jul 4, 2014 01:29
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Talking of Word Vomit, I ran a few searches. (Linked instead of crossposting) 109 uses of "spell" vs. 7 uses of "sword". (30 of "weapon" if you're feeling charitable.)
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Jul 4, 2014 01:30
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Yeah, but that still leaves open the question as to why this was such an offense as opposed to the entire half-page dedicated to telling people how awesome spellcasters are for being able to help fighters. The offense isn't the subject as much as it is the approach. I think because ultimately it comes off as forced and insincere. Like they felt they had to say something about it to try and rope in additional players (or attract them for the very fact they address it) but with zero idea of how to actually do it so they say "hey choose your gender which can totally be whatever cuurraaazy combo you can think of! D&D doesn't care!" Kinda falls flat and pandering. Just my $0.02.
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Jul 4, 2014 01:33
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treeboy posted:Kinda falls flat and pandering.
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Jul 4, 2014 01:35
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treeboy posted:The offense isn't the subject as much as it is the approach. I'm not going to disagree with any of that, mind you. But I somehow don't think that was the original contention. Oh yeah, this little bit of text is going to dominate a lot of the conversation over the next few days.
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Jul 4, 2014 01:37
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I dunno, I haven't seen many people mention it tbh. The big thing I see in ENWorld is both "Wow, wizards and clerics are so cool!" and "It feels like D&D!" So, hey, mission accomplished for Next.
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Jul 4, 2014 01:40
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dwarf74 posted:Repost from that other thread: I know this is a pretty minor point, but I am actually super happy that the phrasing is "a man who feels trapped in a female body" and not something more awkard or indirect. Like it's a really little thing but they could've handled it much much worse.
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Jul 4, 2014 01:47
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treeboy posted:I think the initial negative reaction most people have is to the rather inelegant and awkward way the subject is just kinda thrown out there out of the blue like some giant non sequitur. Much like the rest of the packet they don't take much effort to approach the subject and just kind of vomit words. treeboy posted:The offense isn't the subject as much as it is the approach. It's good to know that, even though you personally aren't offended by this blatant PC pandering, you're looking out for WotC on this one. Look out, Wizards! Don't you see that you might be offending people (not me, obviously!!!!!). Please think of the bigots! You are a very good poster and I think you should definitely keep posting about this subject. Don't hold back! Just let it allllll out. 
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Jul 4, 2014 01:47
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Total spells that require a saving throw: 42 Spells that require a Dexterity saving throw: 19 Spells that require a Constitution saving throw: 9 Spells that require a Wisdom saving throw: 11 Spells that require a Strength saving throw: 0 Spells that require an Intelligence saving throw: 0 Spells that require a Charisma saving throw: 0 So uh..what's the point of having six saves?
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Jul 4, 2014 01:54
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I still think it's awkward and out of place but decided to spend more time formulating my opinion as to why. I think the topic could have been better written while still approaching it directly and succinctly. Two words which generally are not applicable to most of this packet. That being said I'm fine letting the subject drop, it's one reason I left the other thread. When it came up again here I felt I had something to contribute after thinking about my own distaste for how WotC handled it.
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Jul 4, 2014 01:55
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For me the phrasing is off, and I say this as a trans woman, there's something about it that seems poorly worded.
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Jul 4, 2014 01:57
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Can things other than spells (or spell-like, etc.) call for saving throws? Maybe strength saving throw would be for something like "can you hold the spiked portcullis up, or does it squish you?" Just guessing here, I'm not far into the pdf myself.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:02
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I can understand that some of the phrasing or the way they presented it is "a bit off" or stereotypical (androgynous elf, beardy lady-dwarf). I won't disagree with that. I'm still glad they made a good-faith effort and didn't undermine it elsewhere. Like honestly, they could have ended the paragraph by saying "But, of course, you should always defer to the DM if he has any restrictions." That would have been both gross and sadly unsurprising. They didn't. They just straight-up put inclusivity into the rules.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:02
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petrol blue posted:Can things other than spells (or spell-like, etc.) call for saving throws? Maybe strength saving throw would be for something like "can you hold the spiked portcullis up, or does it squish you?" Just guessing here, I'm not far into the pdf myself. That's probably be more of a skill check but as the two are fundamentally the same: yes.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:03
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homerlaw posted:For me the phrasing is off, and I say this as a trans woman, there's something about it that seems poorly worded. Can I vote as a trans women who's happy with it? Sure, it could always be more inclusive, but it's a hell of a gesture for an industry like this.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:05
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homerlaw posted:For me the phrasing is off, and I say this as a trans woman, there's something about it that seems poorly worded. Examples I've seen mentioned include the older style "trapped" phrasing, the use of "hermaphrodite", and how one of the examples is an old dwarf beard joke while the other is an old lovely elf joke. So, it's an effort. A sort of first-draft effort where no trans people were consulted (and at least one open transphobic stalker was).
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Jul 4, 2014 02:07
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I guess my standards must be super low after getting irritated at bullshit like "sexually confused" recently. Maybe I'm just not interpreting it as implying that being trans is on the same level as being a lady dwarf that everyone treats as a guy because she has a beard? I could see how that would feel insulting, it's just... nice to even see it at all, as a fairly low key "man trapped inside a female body," instead of it turning into some weird creepy plot point thing. Like that could be a normal thing that happens to apply to your PC and influence their life but not overwhelm it, instead of it being, like, the villain's backstory for why they're so evil and blah blah blah.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:07
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I sort of expected the six saving throws to be closer to the older style saving throw optional rules from Basic/AD&D, where the primary stat for resiting being paralyzed, turned into stone or restrained was Strength because you could just bull your way through bonds, magical or otherwise. Dexterity was for "Dragon breath" (which turned into a reflex save) and constitution was limited largely to poison, hostile transformation and death effects. Wisdom was for confusion/domination and intelligence for illusions, IIRC. How it turned out is just as a sort of three-save system with a couple of sops cast to the others, and not very consistently.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:09
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Examples I've seen mentioned include the older style "trapped" phrasing, the use of "hermaphrodite", and how one of the examples is an old dwarf beard joke while the other is an old lovely elf joke. Yeah, that's sums up how I feel pretty well.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:10
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I don't think anyone was waiting on Wizard's stamp of approval to be allowed to play a queer character, so that little sidebar feels ultimately pointless even if it had obviously worthwhile intentions behind it. If you've got a bigoted player/DM who'd be an rear end about that kind of thing I doubt being able to point to the Official Rules would change their minds.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:12
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Meepo posted:Total spells that require a saving throw: 42 Each class in the starter set has one real save and one bullshit save. It seems like fortitude, reflex, and will still exist in all but name - although it wouldn't exactly shock me to learn that some of the non-core classes either get two bullshit saves or two real ones.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:12
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Brother Entropy posted:I don't think anyone was waiting on Wizard's stamp of approval to be allowed to play a queer character, so that little sidebar feels ultimately pointless even if it had obviously worthwhile intentions behind it. If you've got a bigoted player/DM who'd be an rear end about that kind of thing I doubt being able to point to the Official Rules would change their minds. It wouldn't change their minds, but it would at least deprive them of one excuse.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:15
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Quoted from the chat thread:neongrey posted:Man, so I really didn't like the 'sex' paragraphs in the new D&D-- some choices of language I was not happy with at all (like hermaphroditic, or the dwarf misgendering joke, or 'man trapped in a female body'). Frankly, I think that, though admirable, they could have done a hell of a lot better with the paragraph.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:16
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Brother Entropy posted:I don't think anyone was waiting on Wizard's stamp of approval to be allowed to play a queer character, so that little sidebar feels ultimately pointless even if it had obviously worthwhile intentions behind it. If you've got a bigoted player/DM who'd be an rear end about that kind of thing I doubt being able to point to the Official Rules would change their minds. Well, in a larger sense it's important for people who ARE queer and so on to be openly represented and referenced in the flagship iconic RPG. On a personal and individual game level, maybe not so much, but as a product it's also intended to foster a community and it's interesting to see the overtures towards the kind of community they want to build and the players they want to acknowledge. Plus it might make some bigots angry 
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Jul 4, 2014 02:17
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Brother Entropy posted:I don't think anyone was waiting on Wizard's stamp of approval to be allowed to play a queer character, so that little sidebar feels ultimately pointless even if it had obviously worthwhile intentions behind it. If you've got a bigoted player/DM who'd be an rear end about that kind of thing I doubt being able to point to the Official Rules would change their minds. This is essentially what I was originally attempting to, admittedly inelegantly, express. In the end it felt off and extraneous. Ymmv.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:17
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petrol blue posted:Can things other than spells (or spell-like, etc.) call for saving throws? Maybe strength saving throw would be for something like "can you hold the spiked portcullis up, or does it squish you?" Just guessing here, I'm not far into the pdf myself.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:17
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petrol blue posted:Can things other than spells (or spell-like, etc.) call for saving throws? Maybe strength saving throw would be for something like "can you hold the spiked portcullis up, or does it squish you?" Just guessing here, I'm not far into the pdf myself. Back in the playtest there were a small handful of monster abilities that keyed to alternate saves, such as a strength save to avoid being knocked on your rear end by a minotaur, an intelligence save to avoid being stunned by a mind flyer's mind blast, and a charisma save to avoid a devil's fear aura (not to be confused with the wisdom saves to avoid the fear effects of every other monster in the bestiary). It wasn't really well thought-out, but I suspect Fort/Ref/Will have been replaced with Con/Dex/Wis saves and then there are the odd ones out, with the order of the rest from most-common to least common being Str/Cha/Int. It is at this point that I miss 4e allowing you to add the higher of two stats to your defense, even if there were still problems with that.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:19
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Brother Entropy posted:I don't think anyone was waiting on Wizard's stamp of approval to be allowed to play a queer character, so that little sidebar feels ultimately pointless even if it had obviously worthwhile intentions behind it. If you've got a bigoted player/DM who'd be an rear end about that kind of thing I doubt being able to point to the Official Rules would change their minds. True, but bear in mind that (at least in the designer's minds) D&D is the entry into trpgs for a lot of people, and if you're all figuring it out as a group, it might be a useful pointer, not least if you're coming from crpgs. It's clunky, it's awkward as hell, but at least it's there.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:27
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It's with bitter irony that I post this given the further conduct of the guy who wrote it, but nevertheless: http://nobilis.me/quotes:exalted-is-totally-gay There's probably room to quibble about that sidebar's wording but it's a good inclusion.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:30
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Well, in a larger sense it's important for people who ARE queer and so on to be openly represented and referenced in the flagship iconic RPG. On a personal and individual game level, maybe not so much, but as a product it's also intended to foster a community and it's interesting to see the overtures towards the kind of community they want to build and the players they want to acknowledge. Yeah, that community-fostering is a fair point. Still think it could've been done less awkwardly but that's admittedly a nitpick on my part.
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Jul 4, 2014 02:30
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