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Ratoslov posted:Nah, I can't remember where I heard the stuff about Goons, but here's some crazy stuff about Alignment Dancey wrote last year. It's pretty stupid. 1) player killers will still find ways to game the system. In this case it will be it avoiding reputation loss (or whatever) and still being aggressive, or causing others to sink into reputation loss though they were not the real aggressor 2) in the arms race to prevent (1) you will start to come up with ridiculous blanket rules that will fix the tedious rule exploit you designed it for about 5% of the time, and 95% of the time will punish and starve out activity that should be judged fair. 3) The rules turn into a complicated mess that trip up players just wanting to have an honest go at the game, and yet... 4) goto (1) Bhaal fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Oct 23, 2014 |
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Oct 23, 2014 20:25
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Dahbadu posted:Seriously, I can't believe this -- do you have a link? Although by all accounts the guy sounds incompetent, this is just so unprofessional. With a lead designer/manager making comments like that, I'm 100% assured it's going to turn into vaporware. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ouvs&page=4?Goblinworks-Blog-I-Heard-It-through-the#196 quote:Yeah, I took that non-denial as admission to being a Goon as well. Unsurprising given the m.o.
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Oct 23, 2014 20:39
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Ryan Dancey sounds like a huge loving dork. Anyway even if the Pathfinder thing comes out, it looks like garbage.
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Oct 23, 2014 21:36
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Ratoslov posted:Nah, I can't remember where I heard the stuff about Goons, but here's some crazy stuff about Alignment Dancey wrote last year. It's pretty stupid. Wow that reputation system is pretty awful. If a high-level character quickly jumps into the Burning Hands cone of a newbie wizard, then the wizard counts as the aggressor and may be mobbed and mauled to death with impunity. The system also doesn't really punish anybody who can kill his target in one single attack. This system sounds trivially easy to abuse.
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Oct 23, 2014 22:31
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Ryan Dancey sounds like a huge loving dork. I will say I agree with him about your seed culture informing all your future culture though. I know pretty much all MMO communities are cesspools but I saw how WoW handled the closed beta boards, and I watched that deliberate stoking of vitriol spill out into the the rest of the players. It was really quite unnerving.
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Oct 24, 2014 01:49
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And we all saw the official WotC boards degenerate into a raging shitstorm that would tolerate no criticism of Next. e: To elaborate, Next would probably be a moths fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Oct 24, 2014 |
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Oct 24, 2014 01:59
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Sage Genesis posted:Wow that reputation system is pretty awful. If a high-level character quickly jumps into the Burning Hands cone of a newbie wizard, then the wizard counts as the aggressor and may be mobbed and mauled to death with impunity. The system also doesn't really punish anybody who can kill his target in one single attack. This system sounds trivially easy to abuse.
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Oct 24, 2014 03:25
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Halloween Jack posted:Sandbox design, player-generated content, players enforcing their own community, built-in alignment system--all frantic excuses. Sandbox Design: Doable, but requires a lot of thought on how to get a player to make their own goals. Player-Generated content: Eehhhh. Neverwinter has that, not sure how well that works? Requires pretty significant tools. Players enforcing their own community: Welp. Those require really robust social tools. I don't know where you'd even begin. Built-in alignment system: What's the difference between this and factions, except being more fiddly?
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Oct 24, 2014 04:06
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Daetrin posted:Built-in alignment system: What's the difference between this and factions, except being more fiddly? Orc Child yells DADDY! DADDY HELP ME! You receive loot: [Broken Toy Sword] You loot 5 Silver, 2 Copper. Reputation with Good increased by 40. Reputation with Law increased by 40.
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Oct 24, 2014 04:18
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neverwinter nights had a lot of awesome servers with DMs but I really don't see how that applies to an MMO. Character persistence has a troubled relationship with DM-moderated campaigns.
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Oct 24, 2014 04:46
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:neverwinter nights had a lot of awesome servers with DMs but I really don't see how that applies to an MMO. Character persistence has a troubled relationship with DM-moderated campaigns. I meant the actual MMO, Neverwinter, with the Foundry.
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Oct 24, 2014 04:52
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Daetrin posted:Built-in alignment system: What's the difference between this and factions, except being more fiddly?
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Oct 24, 2014 05:05
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moths posted:Orc Child yells DADDY! DADDY HELP ME! What happens when an evil player kills another evil player? Do they get more evil or more good? Does it just crash to desktop? NorgLyle posted:In theory it looks like the idea will be that it will be possible to change from one to the other in-game; something World of Warcraft doesn't do. In practice, going by that post, it looks like it's going to be a gigantic pointless probably punitive mess because the designers want it to reflect pre-1st edition sensibilities about alignment for some reason. Obviously it would be Ryan loving Dancey posted:Some abilities, like Paladin feats and skills, are only available to characters of certain alignments. You can only learn and slot those abilities if both your Active and Core Alignment match the Alignment requirement. Yeah, that class you chose in a persistent online game? gently caress youuuuuuuu. edit: Oh, it's worse than I thought, active and core alignment need to match, so it's even impossible to start out, say, CG, decide you want to be a beacon of light and justice, and do Law/Good until you can paladin it up. It's only punitive. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Oct 24, 2014 |
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Oct 24, 2014 05:51
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That game is going to die so loving hard.
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Oct 24, 2014 06:06
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S.J. posted:That game is going to die so loving hard. To die, it would have to ever exist outside of a way to keep paychecks flowing to Ryan Dancey as long as possible.
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Oct 24, 2014 06:42
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So how many MMOs does Ryan Dancey have to NOT do good work on before people stop hiring on him? This is gonna be #3, right? Or are there more.
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Oct 24, 2014 07:37
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30.5 Days posted:So how many MMOs does Ryan Dancey have to NOT do good work on before people stop hiring on him? This is gonna be #3, right? Or are there more. #3!?!? anyway, I backed this shitstorm because I wanted to watch a train wreck and I haven't been disappointed. Having been on the ground floor of building a AAA mmo from the groundup on the operations end of the business I see nothing but a clusterfuck. I've eyed their job postings just to see what they are hiring and I've yet to see anything beyond designers and game programmers. There is a shitton more that goes into making mmos beyond game devs and designers and all signs point to them ignoring these other vital positions. Honestly, I hope I am wrong because there are careers and lives of folks not named Ryan Dancey involved but nothing public has been said or done to dissuade me of my perceptions.
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Oct 24, 2014 07:58
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spoon daddy posted:#3!?!? anyway, I backed this shitstorm because I wanted to watch a train wreck and I haven't been disappointed. Having been on the ground floor of building a AAA mmo from the groundup on the operations end of the business I see nothing but a clusterfuck. I've eyed their job postings just to see what they are hiring and I've yet to see anything beyond designers and game programmers. There is a shitton more that goes into making mmos beyond game devs and designers and all signs point to them ignoring these other vital positions. Honestly, I hope I am wrong because there are careers and lives of folks not named Ryan Dancey involved but nothing public has been said or done to dissuade me of my perceptions. He worked on EVE for a little while and hosed it up, but not in a lastingly destructive way. He worked on that white wolf MMO which lol Now he's working on this.
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Oct 24, 2014 09:30
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30.5 Days posted:He worked on EVE for a little while and hosed it up, but not in a lastingly destructive way. Ryan Scott Dancey (Chief Executive Officer) He’s been called “the Steve Jobs of MMO Marketing.” AlphaDog posted:What happens when an evil player kills another evil player? Do they get more evil or more good? Does it just crash to desktop? You are absorb their evil into yourself, in equal and exact proportion to the amount of good you did by killing someone evil, thus keeping the amount of evil constant.
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Oct 24, 2014 10:51
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5e DMG previews: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/extra-life Orb of Dragonkind can enslave your mind forever if you fail a Charisma check. Because let's not use our six saves or something?
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Oct 24, 2014 11:31
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The whole thing with Dancey and the OGL/SRD is mind-boggling to me; I can't believe that Wizards could have missed the glaringly obvious downside. "So this allows anybody, even our own competitors, to copy our system, make whatever modifications they like and put it out as their own product in perpetuity and royalty-free as long as they don't include our tiny handful of trademarked monsters like Beholders and Mind Flayers? What a great idea, nothing could possibly go wrong!" I guess they assumed they'd sell PHBs to everyone using a d20 product and all would be rosy. (It's also mind-boggling that it worked, because d20 is a horrible, over-crunchy system that tries and fails dismally to be a physics engine, but that's by the by.)
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Oct 24, 2014 12:03
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We need a new grognards thread for this guy
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Oct 24, 2014 12:26
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The way he tried to describe it (a decade after the fact, so whatever) is that it was supposed to be a Warcraft 3/DOTA sort of thing: just as people ended up buying Warcraft 3 just to play DOTA, people would also buy D&D products either as a way to play the other 3rd-party 'mod' that needs it, or that they'd keep playing the D&D product knowing that they'd have 3rd-party publishers continuing to produce content for it. The other analogy he used is that it's like Valve not taking a cut from Gamersgate or Amazon or Humble Bundle selling Steam keys: it's enough for Valve to simply get the person into the Steam environment, or in this case the 3.x/d20 environment, where they can be marketed to directly. Of course this doesn't quite capture the differences between the computer gaming and TTRPG industries, and he was saying this long after he'd left WOTC and profited from his own shenanigans.
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Oct 24, 2014 12:40
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Warcraft 3 wasn't free on the internet and no one could print and sell their own copies of WC3. Good thinking Dancy.
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Oct 24, 2014 12:42
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But OGL stuff says that you must own D&D manuals. That's non-negotiable!
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Oct 24, 2014 12:55
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Sage Genesis posted:5e DMG previews: Eye of Vecna posted:Each time you cast a spell from the eye, there is a 5 percent chance that Vecna tears your soul from your body, devours it, and then takes control of the body like a puppet. If that happens, you become an NPC under the DM's control. Obsidian Steed posted:If you have a good alignment, the figurine has a 10 percent chance each time you use it to ignore your orders, including a command to revert to figurine form. If you mount the nightmare while it is ignoring your orders, you and the nightmare are instantly transported to a random lcocation on the plane of Hades, where the nightmare reverts to figurine form. I don't know which one I like less, the completely lolrandom effects that can permanently gently caress over a character, or the insistence on using "percent" instead of "%"
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Oct 24, 2014 12:59
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For the supposed king of RPGs with millions of players worldwide it's shocking that the people who play and make D&D don't seem to understand what makes games actually fun
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Oct 24, 2014 13:09
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gradenko_2000 posted:I don't know which one I like less, the completely lolrandom effects that can permanently gently caress over a character, or the insistence on using "percent" instead of "%" Stupidly enough, the figurine sometimes ignores "your" commands if "you" are good-aligned. In all cases, "you" refers to the one who activated it. But by default the figurines are friendly to "you" and "your" allies. In other words, just give the figurines to neutral-aligned party members and have them activate the figurines and give the command to give you a ride. This strikes me as a typical example of a rule that is meant to feel magical that in practice just gets ignored by gaming the system.
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Oct 24, 2014 13:15
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Daetrin posted:Sandbox Design: Doable, but requires a lot of thought on how to get a player to make their own goals.
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Oct 24, 2014 13:41
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Sage Genesis posted:Stupidly enough, the figurine sometimes ignores "your" commands if "you" are good-aligned. In all cases, "you" refers to the one who activated it. But by default the figurines are friendly to "you" and "your" allies. In other words, just give the figurines to neutral-aligned party members and have them activate the figurines and give the command to give you a ride. That won't happen if the players don't know what it does though, which they would only know if they cheated by looking at the DMG.
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Oct 24, 2014 13:43
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AlphaDog posted:That won't happen if the players don't know what it does though, which they would only know if they cheated by looking at the DMG. After the first lame gotcha! "reward" I'm sure they'll just throw endless Identifies on everything just to go through the rituals of their antagonistic paranoid relationship with their DM.
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Oct 24, 2014 13:52
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AlphaDog posted:What happens when an evil player kills another evil player? Do they get more evil or more good? Does it just crash to desktop? Payndz posted:The whole thing with Dancey and the OGL/SRD is mind-boggling to me; I can't believe that Wizards could have missed the glaringly obvious downside. "So this allows anybody, even our own competitors, to copy our system, make whatever modifications they like and put it out as their own product in perpetuity and royalty-free as long as they don't include our tiny handful of trademarked monsters like Beholders and Mind Flayers? What a great idea, nothing could possibly go wrong!" quote:I guess they assumed they'd sell PHBs to everyone using a d20 product and all would be rosy.
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Oct 24, 2014 14:36
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Sage Genesis posted:After the first lame gotcha! "reward" I'm sure they'll just throw endless Identifies on everything just to go through the rituals of their antagonistic paranoid relationship with their DM. To me those items sound more like artifacts (which are immune to Identify iirc?). I know the Deck of Many Things never showed what it was or what card you would draw no matter how many Identifies you threw at it. Well unless my DM was a dick.
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Oct 24, 2014 14:50
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Sage Genesis posted:5e DMG previews:
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Oct 24, 2014 14:54
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The obsidian steed is very rare, which doesn't mean what you'd think it does. It's rare in the sense that certain Magic the Gathering cards are rare. But it's not an artifact and as such can be Identified normally. And as for the actual artifact, yes those are extremely rare in the proper sense of the word. But that doesn't excuse using a Charisma check to enslave a PC into quasi-NPC status. Just because it doesn't happen often doesn't mean it should happen at all. I much prefer the 4e method where items would reward you for doing the correct thing by granting you more powers, and taking those powers away again if the character goes against the wishes of the artifact. To me that results in an interesting dynamic, where you might be seduced down the path of evil by being seduced by power. Being able to cast Suggestion at-will on you is essentially the same as handing over your character sheet to the DM. With a DC of 18 you will fail a save sooner or later, so you might as well give up and stop rolling dice to pretend you have any free will.
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Oct 24, 2014 15:24
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Man, what's the point of having awesomely powerful magic items if the game actively discourages you from ever using them? I feel like that could have been so much more interesting. For instance, after x number of casts, the Eye can manipulate what you see. After y number, the eye can show you visions, and after z number you go blind in your other eye. That's very basic but I feel like it would convey a stronger sense of gradual corruption and manipulation that influences the characters actions in a positive way, driving the story.
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Oct 24, 2014 16:06
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Right - the way the penalty is structured right now, you can't manage it or predict it in any way, and that just shifts it from "can I risk using this thing just one more time?" to "never use it unless the alternative is literally death because if I blow it and roll the 1 on the d20 for Vecna's Takeover I'm dead anyway, even if it's only the first time I've ever used it"
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Oct 24, 2014 16:14
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These artifact rules do something I thought was impossible. They make me long for the Book of Artifacts from AD&D2e, because the Vecna artifacts were more interesting and--oh Jesus Christ, I'm going to throw up--better designed in AD&D.
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Oct 24, 2014 16:16
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Halloween Jack posted:He basically promised us Ultima Online all over again. Really this is why I hold out a small glimmer of hope for it. If it works like UO did, I'll be happy.
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Oct 24, 2014 16:38
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Talmonis posted:Really this is why I hold out a small glimmer of hope for it. If it works like UO did, I'll be happy. While this is really off topic from D&D Next... My first MMO was Asheron's Call, and there has been no MMO that's actually delivered on the MMO promise better, in many ways (except A Tale In The Desert, but that barely counts). But going back to it now and looking at it objectively, there are a lot of issues that make it somewhat painful to play after many iterations of MMO interface and design. Yet, some of the reasons I like it so much are really, really hard to detach from otherwise-bad game design (e.g., its loot vs its grindiness). So far as I can tell UO is a bit the same thing. It did a lot of things right, and was daring in ways no modern MMO even considers, but trying to do a redux of that... Much like tabletop games, many early MMOs are games in which you had fun despite the glaring flaws in the system because it was something New And Different. And novelty value is really high in the weighting of how fun a game is.
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Oct 24, 2014 16:47
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