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Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
Someone posted some higher level monster statblocks and it looks like solo enemies can just flat out NOPE and automatically pass a save X number of times.

So in a fight, a dracolich or whatever is going to get hit with the Fighter's maneuver that sends it sprawling because that's minor enough that it doesn't want to burn the resource, but when the cleric tosses a Hold Person at it, even if it targets the weakest save, the dracolich is still going to stay in the fight.

I actually like this a lot more than 4e's design where solos were pretty much immune to debuffs of any kind, with a "save at the start and end of your turn, get a +5 bonus to all saves, and immune to half a dozen of the most common effects" Take the dragons in 4e's Monster Vault. All of them have a 80% chance of passing every saving throw, and they automatically clear any stunning, dazing, or dominating effects at the end of their turn. Later, they get the ability to clear stunning and dominating off turn.

So, 5e's SoDs are about at the level of 4e's stuff, with everything either Save Ends or based on a damage threshold, and against solos, instead of saying "your (save ends) are pointless unless you're an optimized controller throwing down massive penalties", it becomes a resource management thing like hp. Simpler and more tactical. Win win.

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Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

Father Wendigo posted:

I'm really hoping they've done something... anything to make the Rogue more effective than it is right now. Right now it's a markedly less effective Fighter whose biggest positive is their high DEX save.

Apparently rogues now have a faster sneak attack progression, with 2d6 at level 3 and 3d6 at level 5. With Cunning Action letting them hide constantly, it's not unreasonable to assume that they're not only sneak attacking each turn, but getting Advantage on most of those, and with how much of a godstat Dex is in 5e, they're pretty effective.

...except, they nerfed its out of combat abilities with fewer skills, smaller bonuses, and their ability to jump 10 feet longer and 5 feet higher is now "jump dex mod futher IF you get a running jump" while at the same time making a common magic item that triples the distance you can jump. Legendary thief with near superhuman agility? +4 feet. Put on some magic boots in the bargain bin? +20-40 feet. Oh, and rogues can't use medium armor anymore because reasons.

quote:

It's worse than that. They have the option to retcon a failed save X times per day.
Right. That's what I meant.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
Starter pregen for the rogue leaked, and they get Uncanny Dodge at level 5, which lets them halve the damage of any attack that hits them, once per round. They also have a d8 hitdie now.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

moths posted:

So Rogues get to Roll With It? I wonder just how much of the starter will have (*as seen in 13th Age) citations.

e:
Power: Roll With It. Spend momentum when an enemy hits your AC to take half damage.

Yep, only, you know, they can do it without momentum. And against any kind of attack, AC targeting or not.

Really, the rogue is one of the messiest classes in 13a. The momentum mechanic is nice in theory, but since you're capped at holding only 1 point of it from level 1 till the end, it means the rogue scales in power really poorly. New powers just give new, mostly equivalent options, while the other classes get new options they can actually reliably use.

Jack the Lad posted:

Nope, there are a bunch of straight up Save or Dies: Beholder petrification, Death Knight soul steal etc.

Ah, yeah, I was just talking about the PC spells.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
Lots and lots to hate with this.

First, Fighter was nerfed extremely hard. Indomitable was made extremely weak, and Defy Death is just gone. Fighters are now going to be pretty drat lovely up against higher level encounters without a christmas tree assortment of items.

Second, mind-bogglingly, opportunity attacks are still a reaction. This is a big problem, because classes need their Reactions for other things, like the rogue's Uncanny Dodge or the Fighter's Protection feature. Since you're limited to 1/round, you can't do both in the same round. If you're holding off three goblins, you can't make any OAs after the first one.

The extreme example that was brought to the Devs attention was the classic "Fighter holds enemies at bay by moving into a narrow hallway to force them to come one at a time". With this, you can have 30 orcs all moving in, attacking, and moving out, and the fighter only gets to take a swing at one of them as they retreat.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
Oh boys, spells.

Arcane Lock gives a lock/door a +10 boost to its DC. Which...just breaks the math and makes the rogue cry.

Dominate Monster and Dominate Person are in as 8th and 5th level spells respectively and it's mindrape that.

Earthquake is basically "Destroy Castle and everyone inside"

Fighters at max level get three uses of the incredible (not really) Indomitable ability. Clerics of max level can cast



with the super flexible casting mechanic because they know all spells all the time and can prepare new ones every day.

Oh, and Knock



DC 10000 lock holding in the key to ultimate power? Sure, why not. gently caress rogues.



Crippling debuff that doesn't allow saves until the victim starts burning actions? Cool. COOL!

More than all of that though, the spells shown aren't all that great at doing damage, goddamn do they throw out powerful buffs and crippling debuffs. But what really gets me is that they are also so many goddamn problem solvers. Knock, Passwall, Find the Path, Locate Creature, Teleport, Gate, on and on and on, spell after spell that lets the wizard and cleric solve the campaign in just a few minutes and make otherwise daunting and exciting challenges trivially easy.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

LFK posted:

Aside from the 10-11, 12-13, 15-16, 19-20 clumps (lol, wtf?) it's basically 4e's guidelines, just presented in a less clear and less coherent manner.

If you translate it into a sane chart that bothers to draw an assumption about party size then it's actually useful.
I wouldn't use monsters even 1-2 CR ahead of the party, especially not earlier than level 5. The Starter Set has that level 8 Green Dragon, but it's basically just a challenge fight to see if they can even get it down to half before it kills everyone. If they manage that it flies off and they get their fat loot.

Oh, and here's a chart of expected monster DPR vs middling PC hit points. I went right down the middle to reduce the spread. In practice most everyone is going to aim for a +5 which helps tons.



Something I'm not quite sure of, though, is that if my Con goes up do I get back-pay on the hit points?

Neat chart. Monster dpr looks to be totally bonkers. Also:

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
The Battle Master is going to be better than the Champion at doing what the Champion is supposed to be good at. By which I mean, the Battle Master at level 3 has three superiority dice per short rest. They can use that for a wide variety of maneuvers, simplest among them probably their feinting attack



Which will give them advantage on the attack and if you hit, do another d8. The battle master can take this and two other maneuvers at third level.

The champion for its part gets an increase in threat range, performing a critical hit on a 19-20.

So the Battle Master has some better burst damage, but the Champion does more damage more reliably, a very optimistic person might say.

Yeah...that's true. Technically.

But you can actually crunch the numbers on that. For this thought experiment, let's assume that the fighter deals 2d6+3 on a hit, and that they hit on a 10 or higher. For example, a 17 strength fighter with the protector style slamming on 15 AC orcs. Standard stuff.

On every attack, the Champion is going to have an average damage of 6.2 (45% of the time it's 0, 45% of the time its 10, and 10% of the time you crit for 17). The first three attacks that the Battle Master makes though is going to have a whopping average damage of 12.7, more than twice what the Champion does. That's because the Battle Master is benefiting from not just from the extra Advantage, but they're going to get that big d8 on top of it. And don't forget, rolling twice means you have two chances for a critical hit. A basic attack with Advantage has a 9.75% chance of critting compared with the Champion's 10%.

After those first three attacks, the Battle Master's damage drops down sharply to 5.85. On the 4th swing and beyond, the Champion is going to have the edge when it comes to damage. So how long does it take the Champion to break even?



59 attacks. Fifty-nine attacks. Most of you standard orcs are going to go down in 2 or 3 attacks. Even an Owlbear is going to be toast after 10 or so. Most combat at this level lasts 2 rounds, 4 at the long range. So for a Champion to break even with the Battle Master, you need to go about TWENTY challenging fights without a single short rest in between.

Bonus round. What kind of threat range would you need to balance out a champion with a battle master with a reasonable number of encounters per rest?



Chart shows how long after that three round burst of damage it takes for the Champion with various new threat ranges to catch up. So if you crit on a 12 and up, it'd still take 10 attacks before you started to outperform the Battle Master.

Onnnnnne more thing. There might be the point raised that the Champion can benefit from Advantage too, from spells and whatnot. Well so can the Battle Master. There is nothing tying the BM's arms that mean it has to use those maneuvers right in the first three rounds. The opposite, the BM can pick and choose when it's most advantageous to burn those dice, and choose the right maneuver for the situation.

So yeah. Champion? More like chump...ion. Chumpion. Whatever. Battle Master steals has the issue of having the same list of maneuvers to pick and choose from that are really cool at level 3 but losing their luster at level 17, but that's a whole other can of worms.

e: Big ups to Jack the Lad for making the tables.

Quadratic_Wizard fucked around with this message at 12:43 on Jul 15, 2014

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

Fuego Fish posted:

Speaking of homebrewing poo poo for 5e, I did that thing I always do.

Pack Tactics is kind of ridiculously better than the alternative. Even in super duper tactical and strategically deep 4e, moving an extra square didn't really mean poo poo.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

treeboy posted:

i edited my post above, they've renamed a bunch of feats, Tactical Warrior is now called Sentinel, is slightly different, but arguably a little bit better.

edit: my biggest complaint thus far is the lack of options i've seen for increasing reactions, it'd be really nice if there was something that would grant even one or two extra per round.

This is a big pain for me too. Personally, just going to make it so that Opportunity Attacks are opportunity actions, ala 4e, and everything else can use the reaction action.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

Apple Mummy posted:

That's what I meant. Like how opportunity actions are in 4e, basically.

Reactions are really broad in 5e. You have things like the Rogue's Uncanny Dodge which cuts damage in half as a reaction, so this would pump the power of that sort of thing a whole lot.

4e had 1/round Reaction/Interrupt Actions and 1/turn Opportunity Actions. Hacking that into 5e and saying that only attacks are Opportunity Actions solves most of the issues, I think.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

ShineDog posted:

I'm imagining having a book with clear plastic slots to put the cards in so you can actually make a little book of spells, and I'm thinking that would be adorable.

That's exactly how the Gash Bell ccg worked.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
Surprised no one has mentioned Thornwatch.

http://thornwatch.com/

Still in development, and headed up by a guy who thought that doing the design doc in photoshop was the best idea, but it's a Dominion-style deckbuilding rpg.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
With regards to the "fighter does cool stuff", I'm working on a system to (hopefully) implement that without breaking the game.

I call it the Rewards system. By default, every character gains a reward at 1st level, and every other level afterwards, to a max of 10 rewards at level 19.

These rewards can take several forms. Abilities like super strength and speed, your own castle, a legendary sword, and so on. They're divided into 4 tiers--1-4, 5-10, 11-16, and 17-20--as described in the book, with the higher the tier the more impressive it is. Great strength in the 5-10 (paragon) tier can mean you're as strong as 10 men (in carrying capacity and feats of strength, not attack/damage rolls), and the same reward at the 17-20 (Legend) tier means you're as strong as a thousand men.

These rewards replace the standard magic items that players find, and they have one more catch. If you're a spellcaster, you can cast 1st and 2nd level spells just as normal. But, you need a reward to cast 3rd level spells. If you're 5th level and don't decide to get that reward, you can still supercharge a magic missile with a 3rd level slot, but no fireball. Each level of casting is its own reward, which means that to be a standard caster, you'll need to spend 7 of the 10 rewards on spell levels.

This does two things. One, that's 7 extra things that fighters and rogues and whatnot get (4 if you're a paladin or ranger who wants 5th level spells) to tip the scales more towards their favor. Two, it sets a good benchmark. A typical Paragon tier reward should be about as useful as being able to cast 3rd or 4th level spells using your spell slots, for instance.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
I decided to try and make a new fighter while sticking to 5e's philosophy of design, by using the bard as a benchmark for things to do. Based on the old fighter, first thing was to just fix a few of the biggest offenders. Make Relentless work, make Second Wind scale, give the last Extra Attack the same level that a Warlock gets it, make the Champion not a laughingstock. All of that.

Then, started looking at how to give fighter's something to make up for their lack of spellcasting, and came up with Powers (because 4e, amirite?). 4 levels/tiers, picking new ones each level, and being able to easily retrain your picks just like a cleric can their spell loadout. Each power wouldn't be daily, but should have the same overall utility of a spell. Shapeshifting doesn't give aquatic adaptation like Alter Self, but you can keep it on for as long as you like and don't need to Concentrate. Guard Duty works like Alarm, but only alerts you, but also can be used when someone tries to sneak up on you, or when you come across someone hiding. And so on.

And while I was doing this, I'm pretty sure I didn't break the game. I think this fighter could play with a cleric, bard, and druid and none of them would feel completely outclassed. But the fact remains that this is a TON of free extra stuff loaded on top of the normal class features that gives a massive jump in utility.

I quit after I'd finished a bunch of stuff for the first tier of Powers, but I think the lesson here is that it's impossible to fix fighters with a "simple" fix while keeping things balanced. You could make a fighter that's immune to magic and can one-shot every enemy, but it wouldn't play well with others and disrupts everything. Fixing the fighter by sprucing up his existing class features isn't going to cut it either. The fact is that other classes get really awesome new toys each and every level on top of their class features, and what seems like the best way to keep up is to do the same.

So the biggest blind spot in 5e design is that Spellcasting is considered a class feature in the same way that "proficient with heavy armor and martial weapons" is, when instead, each spell is basically its own really good class feature.

Anyways, what I did is here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B1Q9szcc52tkyX3j3rvTiWMZmAWFUL2vRDM9QRbg2NI/edit?usp=sharing if anyone is curious.

It was an interesting waste of time. Maybe next a wizard class like an illusionist or Evocator based on the monk or rogue, or a magician-wizard based on the fighter, with some some bullshit like "Okay, I tried to solve that rubik's cube for like half an hour at my desk, can't be done" style design.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
What happens when/if Hasbro gives it up? Paizo comes in and saves the day, releases the new, true DnD we've always wanted? :kheldragar:

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
Tried to make yet another fighter redesign.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_cZeEmIfkN0HqIYumxXzQELptg5pwA5S5TQaKYbCDH0/edit?usp=sharing

Still using the Bard as a baseline, this time...just give the fighter spells. Full casting. Sure. Why not?

Just call the spells Martial Exploits. Charm Person is you being a charming motherfucker. Thunderwave is you swinging your weapon so hard you break the sound barrier and send dudes flying. Confusion is throwing a rock and hitting someone's head so hard that they're confused. Faerie fire is throwing a bag of glowing flour at dudes. And so on.

That plus some "nice things" like a scaling second wind and a neat capstone.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

thespaceinvader posted:

It's the basic problem of a single flat pool of options. It happened with ALL the e-Martial classes in 4e, it happens with most of the martial classes in 5e - whenever you pick options, if you always pick from the same list, you pick the best ones (for you) the first time, and every time after that you get sloppy seconds. There's no feeling of advancement when you keep using the same tricks you used last level because the ones you picked up this level are worse.

But no-one in the design team seems to get that.

I think it went a bit like this.

"Okay, people didn't like feat chains in 3e. We should fix that for 5e."

"What if we divided feats into tiers. More powerful feats get unlocked automatically as players enter different tiers of play."

"Brilliant!"

"Wait, isn't that what we...they did for 4e?"

"poo poo!"

"Okay, new idea. Let's just let them unlock EVERYTHING at the same time. They'll have all the options at once."

"Mike, you're a loving genius."

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
Monte Cook, former lead designer on 5e, is doing an AMA on ENworld right now.

Biggest regret of his career? Working on 5e. Will he ever create adventures/options for 5e? Hell no, repeated over and over as people keep asking the same question.

Plus these golden nuggets.



Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

drrockso20 posted:

That's actually a pretty good idea, would require a pretty hefty expansion and overhaul of the Skill system though...

Meanwhile, by which I mean two years ago, in Fate Core: http://evilhat.wikidot.com/aspect-based-naration

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

Splicer posted:

This is similar to how my totally going to be finished any day now RPG homebrew works. You have a race, a class, and a theme/background/addon/whatever. Some of the themes you can take are narrative token themes, like Vancian Caster or A Bag of Tricks, that you can call on a few times per adventure to do ridiculous bullshit. Your base class has considerably more street level capabilities, and there are themes that are more mechanically structured if you just want to hit things good.

My homebrew which shall also be finished at some point definitely goes along a similar track too. Nine skills, three which are Trained, three which are Amateur, and three that remain Untrained to handle most utility stuff, then 5 combat stats using pointbuy. Add a combat role--damage, support, tank--and then pick some combat and utility powers. Every time you level up, stats and skills go up, plus you get a new combat or utility power, plus one extra power, that can be either. So at level 2 you get a utility power, plus either a combat or utility power, your choice. Level 3 is combat and extra, and so on.

Works "okay", but needs more content/powers, plus a weird system for "Money, Influence, and Power" to handle rather greedy motivations.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
The John Rogers books are the best thing to ever come out of the DnD franchise. Systems, video games, movies, books? All terrible. That comic? Pure gold.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
The main thing is that martials are already heavily discouraged from multiclassing. The last unique core feature a fighter gets is at level 9. Everything after that is things it's already gotten before, while other classes are getting more powerful features.

So you've got this natural incentive to multiclass because the back end of your class is terrible, so they added that rule to try and keep you hemmed in.

Does it break the game? No. Read the description of the polymorph spell. Game breaks at level 7.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

quote:

I would say 13th Age is a better 5e than 5e

* The rules actually support grid-less combat that works
* The skill system is completely narrative driven, as opposed to 5e's "we still couldn't find it within ourselves to go whole-hog on the background skills except as a DMG variant rule"
* Class design more closely resembles 4e insofar as everyone gets an interesting thing they can do every turn, without 4e's complexity and bloat (although there are parts of this that are still weak, like the Fighter and the Ranger, not nearly as weak as in 5e)
* The item treadmill is, as in 5e, also excised
* Monster construction and encounter construction is dead-simple
* A cap of level 10 but allowing the players to add their level to most rolls allows for a mundane-adventurer-to-epic-hero arc without 3.5/4e's "need full per-level skill DC chart", but also without 5e's very limited scaling
* The escalation die mechanic solves a LOT of problems with D&D-esque combat
* Monster vs player math is laid out well and doesn't result in swingy, unintentionally deadly encounters
* No more huge spell list that takes up half the book and is a pain in the rear end to reference, ditto no more monsters that rely on looking up spells in the spell list

Okay, 13th age is an okay-ish rpg, but no, this is wrong.

The grid-less combat rules work about the same as 5e, the only difference is that for AoE, you roll a 1d3+1 to target enemies in a group and friendly fire isn't a thing.

The skill system is narrative driven in the sense that there's little functional difference between an "I'm Batman" skill and a "Fisherman" skillset in how you can justify rolling the skill.

Class design is only superficially like 4e. Classes get "interesting things" that are pretty much poo poo. I went into this when 13th age came out here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wc4NYMKWrszlUuppR4-uD_xIPNSdYXCvBGW3xT11Ifc/edit
And how each class was broken and how to fix it here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lJ4XVKdGDv8dhrssM_7V5niO8JxCpvm-BeSsFejitXA/edit

The simple math of the system does make it easier to balance things after the fact, but it's really bad that with such a simple setup the designers screwed things up so much.

The caster supremacy is also a ton stronger than in 5e. First, casters are much better in combat. Every single spell levels up automatically with level, so at max level you have 9 9th level spells and 3 8th level spells. Meanwhile, martial abilities never scale and have much, much weaker effects and rely on random triggers. Combat spells can be used to do whatever you want out of combat, and utility spells are broad enough that they're pretty much "solve anything" too, more than in 5e. In the original FAQ, they had one question that was "How does 13th Age solve the Quadratic Wizard/Linear Fighter problem?", which they answered that fighters gain extra damage each level. After these points were shown to the devs, they took that question down.

13th Age isn't a terrible rpg. It does some things better than 5e, like monster design. But most of the praise for it is kneejerk "It's not 5e!" rather than judging it on its own merits.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

bewilderment posted:

Inspiration is a non-feature by non-DnD standards, but by DnD standards it's Actual Roleplaying Mechanics!

Advantage/Disadvantage has its up and downs but it's probably, in the current state of the game, a better system than doing your best to stack bonuses upon bonuses. Less math is more better. It's basically the old '+2 circumstance bonus' with slightly different math and no actual addition required.

I'd give Advantage/Disadvantage a bit more credit than that. Stacking bonuses was really a hassle, but more than that, a +2 bonus was lame. All it ever did was change the outcome of 10% of rolls from failure to success. 9 times out of ten, it didn't do anything.

Advantage is elegant in that, if you're doing something you're good at, it cuts the chance you'll screw it up in half. If you're doing something you're not good at, it doubles your chance of success. It's always going to be significant, and since you're rolling twice, it always feels significant too, which is actually something important in game design.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

Really Pants posted:

Is it seriously true that the standard skill DCs were copied from 3.5, where you're expected to have all those bonuses, and they never got corrected down?

No, those were part of one of the earliest playtest docs. The skill DC table 5e uses is this:


It's still not ideal, but that boils down to the d20 system, and the fact that task DCs don't scale up as you gain levels like in 4e is a marked improvement.

edit: It also didn't help that 4e had a different table for DCs in the DMG, in the errata'd DMG, then the DMG 2, then the Rules Compedium, plus probably some more I'm not remembering. The dev team really had no idea how to handle skills because the system was too closely tied to the combat, which had a much more narrow range of numbers.

Quadratic_Wizard fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Aug 17, 2015

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

MadScientistWorking posted:

I love how you have no loving clue what the hell you are talking about. Friendly fire is definitely a thing in 13th Age. Its just that like in 4th edition it explicitly gets called out as to whether or not it is a friendly fire spell. Seriously how do I trust your advice when you didn't even read the rulebook clearly?

That's a bit hostile. Since it's been literally years since I've looked at 13th age, I had dug up my old pdf and looked through wizard spells till I found a few staples, color spray and lightning bolt.


But yeah, going further down the spell list, fireball specifically has an option to toast your allies in an all or nothing way:


4e and 5e are identical in the fiddly "aoe is all about imagining shapes on a battlefield of miniatures, just that 5e claims that you don't need the miniatures when you actually do. When you say that 4e and 13th Age aoe works identically, when 13th age is all about not using miniatures, it paints you as the one who has no loving clue (and to escalate things a notch) should just gently caress off, fuckboy. Of course, this a bit of an exaggeration and you simply made your point inelegantly and in a way that could be easily and technically proven false while ignoring the major points you were trying to make, same as I did.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

Roadie posted:

They don't scale up in 4e, at least in the way that you're implying. The skill DCs in 4e are for appropriate challenges of that level.

"Jump over a pit" and "jump over the Grand Canyon" are challenges of different levels, and somebody who can even try to do the latter will be able to beat the relatively tiny DC of the former every day.

Yeah, though 4e had really strict jumping rules where if you had a running start, a check of 50 would mean you could jump 10 squares, 50 feet, so long as you used a double move. It's not like 4e skillchecks were ever suggested as being able to do anything that wasn't mundane. In fact, if you look at the player's handbook for 4e, you see that skills were generally much more set in stone with what they did, discouraging DM's from letting players use them for more over the top things. Compare 5e Acrobatics


to 4e Acrobatics



It's possible to say "You're level 17, you can jump over the grand canyon if you make a DC 15-40 check.", but you'd be houseruling 4e or 5e when doing so.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
Decided to go through and give all the classes without 6th level spellcasting some quality of life improvements, as well as collect my thoughts on houserules in general.

Some of this stuff is just "why, why would they do that?" like the comparison between a warlock's Dark One's Own Luck and the Fighter's Indomitable, or the Sorc's ability to fly at thanks to their 14th level subclass ability compared to the Barbarian's ability to "fly while raging, but fall at the end of your turn, so if you fly up to hit that dragon with your axe, you take 4d6 damage when your rear end hits the ground".

Basic idea is to just make all of the features work like they should have in the first place. Indomitable is on a short rest cooldown and works 100% of the time. Stroke of Luck recharges every round instead of every day because capstones should be loving awesome. Trying really hard to make the features powerful while also not making the characters then so powerful that the math breaks down. Not even trying to make them on par with casters in terms of pure burst and utility. Just...you know...not so full of suck.

Anyways, here's what I have so far, with comments added that explain my reasoning for each change/buff: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ROIsLEoB-3Ovlxmb7PA2G3gFBTkALmrgXAyHQdkTeMc/edit

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

Ryuujin posted:

Looking at this sounds pretty interesting so far. So for the Barbarian if they had 20 Str and Con before 20th level they jump to 30 in each?

Yep. +100 hp and +5 attack/damage. Had a general philosophy of "the druids at-will wildshape isn't a wild outlier, but the baseline" and "Wizard being able to cast Shield at-will to gain a +5 AC bonus and 45 temp hp is totally valid".


quote:

Champion, Remarkable Athlete how does this work in relation to skills that you already had proficiency in? Triple the distance you can jump is a lot better than adding str mod in feet, also is comparable/equal to the bonus from Jump. Though it begs the question what happens if they have Jump cast on them?

If you already proficient in the skill, then you don't get an extra bonus.

quote:

Gaining some of these high level features is nice, especially with more ASIs, or getting ASIs when you would get Extra Attack from a mutliclassed class since in those situations you normally end up getting no feature.

Yeah, I think that generally something at higher level should be better than the stuff you get at lower levels. Each character should still have holes, but they should master their niche.

quote:

Still really like the better expanded crit range on the champion. I would love to play a high level Champion Fighter or Bear Barbarian, level 20 Bear Barbarian, maybe Goliath for the even more increased carrying capacity. Quadruple carrying capacity with 30 strength oh yeah.

For the Champion, philosophy of "simple but effective". With Indomitable letting the fighter shrug off three effects and unloading something like a dozen attacks per round, each of which crits, they can do what they said they'd do in the design goals. In theory, at least.

quote:

Brutal Critical for the Barbarian normally gives them an extra die at various levels, you have it giving an expanded crit range, is it just the expanded crit range? Or both?

Both.

quote:

I am having trouble telling what all the suggestions/explanations on the side are actually linked to.

If you click on each suggestion, it'll scroll the comments to the linked explanation. I think?


quote:

Relentless change reminds me of how I think it was at one point in the playtest.

Yeah, it's powerful, but at that level you'll be burning through dice quickly even with it.

quote:

Feral Senses...you are just giving the ranger advantage on all attack rolls? That seems a bit good. Foe Slayer is nice.

It's to compensate the Ranger only being able to attack 4 times at most when they use their 5th level slot for Swift Quiver.

quote:

Kind of confused on Slippery Mind. Most things with saves that continue have you make a save at the end of each of your turn's each round, if that isn't what you mean but actually mean each turn as in even on ally and enemy turns, might want to be clear about that.

There seems to be quite a few effects that don't. I went ahead and changed it to being proficiency plus immunity to charmed, plus the ability to cast Nondetection and Nystul's Magic Aura on yourself at-will, since looking at it, Rogue was pretty behind the others.

Thanks for having a look through, updated it to make things more clear. Would probably be easier to read if I just write up each class from scratch with the changes incorporated but...this is easier on my end.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

Ryuujin posted:

Haven't checked the updates but I generally like the changes. Though Remarkable Athlete not having a benefit if already having a skill does make it worse than expertise and means that if they have Athletics or a dex skill that skill pick is wasted unless they get to replace those skills with new skills.

I see it as a contrast of jack of all trades and the specialized expert. Rogue should be the best there is at what he does. When it comes to those skills they're specialized in, they should reign supreme.

Champion on the other hand is just a paragon of physical might. In terms of strength, toughness, and agility, they're good at everything. You're right though that it would make skill picks wasted. I'll fix that.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
https://goo.gl/YJ8yr8

Attempt #4 on making 5e fighters cool. This time a subclass, meant to go along with the conservative fixes from before. Tactical options aplenty to choose from with standardized, 4e style powers, but with a point system that scales with level. Heavily inspired by the hearthstone ccg.

And now I ask myself: why?

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
So Ambuscade is pretty much straight up better than Action Surge, right? You get to use it before anyone else can do anything, and you can use it every combat.

The animal companions seem really weak. Summon a Brown Bear for one minute but you've got to concentrate, and you can only do it once a day. Brown Bears are CR 1. Conjure Animals, a third level spell, summons up a CR 2 beastie or two CR 1s. Sure, you get to toss out 2d6+X temp hp when you do it, but that's not much in way of compensation.

The Stealth mechanic is weird in the whole "well orcs B and D can see you plain as day, but orc C is clueless" way.

Nice job with Primeval Awareness still costing a spell slot when this new ranger doesn't get spells. Real slick move there.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
I'm now realizing that because the online reaction to this new Ranger is "automatic 1-level dip for martial classes, high hp is barbarians thing, TWO good saves?!?!", if they ever did make a new ranger, it would pale in comparison to this one. The baseline for good is so loving low that the other classes will drag this one down into the mud with it because the hardcore fans have a warped idea of what's balanced.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

djw175 posted:

Does anyone know of any videos or podcasts of people playing this game? I like watching people roleplay and as much as I enjoy playing 4e, hour long combats aren't really fun to listen to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-p9lWIhcLQ

It's a 5e game made up entirely of voice actors, who are basically the ideal people to be playing a dnd game on a stream.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

Elfgames posted:

I want tactical combat and stuff just simpler than 4e like give the fighter a couple of useful combat abilities and useful noncombat abilities make spells less all powerful make feats big and important but only give people a max of like 5 and make the book readable.

I'd stay away from 13th Age then, and suggest you check out Strike!

http://www.strikerpg.com/

Built from the ground up as "I like 4e, but it's got entirely too much cruft."

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
Yeah, Indomitable was just moved to level 17 and given to casters in the form of Foresight. Since you only get it at level 17, it got buffed up a tiny little bit.

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

slydingdoor posted:

By the time I was in the playtest casters already had 4site. But something changed about it at the last second...

One hour? Wow, what a joke of a 9th level spell. 6th level, maybe. Maybe!

Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011

ActusRhesus posted:

Don't know why you all are bagging on rogues...mine is usually last man standing in our big fights.

Well, general targeting strategies tend to be "target the fighter so they can soak damage like they're good at" if the GM wants to have kid gloves and "target the squishes because they're the real threats". Last Man Standing can easily mean Lowest Priority Target.

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Quadratic_Wizard
Jun 7, 2011
Absolutely nothing to do with the edition wars we're still having, but has no one ever thought of this before?

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