D&D NEXT: Infinite Posts of the Abyss

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dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Also, the "big" news, Basic D&D will be released to the general public, for free, via PDF, tomorrow or whenever WotC's servers stop choking from the added traffic.

It's going to be stripped-down, so while it will give us some idea about the game, it won't have everything and won't have much art.

It is going to have...
* The Big 4 classes, one "archetypal" build of each - Simple Fighter, Simple Rogue, Healer Cleric, and Blasty Wizard, going up to Level 20
* The Big 4 races, each with two subraces
* A selection of spells up to level 9
* Rules for the game

Eventually, it will also have
* Monsters up to Level 20
* Magic items
* Campaign advice

That's the theory anyway.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 03:04

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# ¿ Apr 19, 2024 13:29

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

It's all good!

It will be a good glimpse of the system, but we won't get the full picture until probably November, when the DMG comes out.

I have grave doubts about the saving throw system, btw. My prediction is that it will need to be pretty heavily houseruled.

It goes something like this...

Wizard Spell Save DC = 8 + Proficiency Bonus + Int Modifier. At 1st level, this is 13. At 20th, this is 19.

"Good" Save Bonus (normally on a bumped stat) = Proficiency Bonus + Stat Modifier. At 1st, this is +5. At 20th, this is +11.
"Bad" Save Bonus (normally not bumped) = Stat modifier. At 1st, this is +0. At 20th, this is... +0. :crossarms:

There might be (hopefully!) some mitigating factors, but there's a good chance the game will go totally off the rails once a Wizard has access to Save-or-Suck spells against all 6 stats.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 03:14

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

I just meant that the build/subclass was the Evoker. There's a decent variety of spells, in general.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 05:17

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

treeboy posted:

i don't see anything in the stat block about auto-saves per day. Is that a generic rule for all monsters, did they axe it?

It's not a Legendary monster.

Decent saves though, all things considered.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 16:13

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Rulebook Heavily posted:

Am I missing something? Why does that dragon only have four saves listed?

Saves are just stat checks.

If a save isn't listed, you just roll that stat.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 16:43

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Yeah, there's nothing here that changes my opinion positively.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 18:29

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

I'll give it another look later, but I'm very disappointed in the design work here. Thinking of nuking my pre-orders...

For example, the skill DCs are still jacked.

And nothing is helping my concern about save DCs. In fact, one of the saving graces - a Fighter ability called Indomitable has been nerfed hard.

e: I knew Basic was stripped down. That's fine. It's the rules work around that.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 18:51

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

LongDarkNight posted:

The only difference in the Fighter I can see from my 02/14 Alpha Playtest doc is the Archery Fighting Style got bumped from "+1" to "+2".

October playtest, Indomitable was advantage on all saves at 13th level.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 18:52

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

whydirt posted:

February '14 comes after October '13.

I know?

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 18:56

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

whydirt posted:

The post you quoted was talking about changes from the Febrary playtest docs, so the change to indomitable had already been made if I'm reading it correctly. I guess I just don't understand what your reply has to do with the quoted post.

I was explaining what version I was referring to, pointing out that it was stronger in the one I was referring to.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 19:00

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Quadratic_Wizard posted:

More than all of that though, the spells shown aren't all that great at doing damage, goddamn do they throw out powerful buffs and crippling debuffs.

On the hopeful side, I'm wondering how well Concentration will throttle that. I think I'll need to see it in play.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 19:02

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

RPZip posted:

Also, where is the concentration mechanic people are talking about? I didn't find it in the spellcasting section, but it's possible I missed it.

Page 79-80. It is hard to evaluate in theory world, but seems like it has to make a major difference on the table.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 20:21

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Repost from that other thread:

This is awesome. For real, no irony.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 20:45

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Nancy_Noxious posted:

This is AWESOME!

Why must the system be lovely, WHY?!

Hey it persuaded me not to cancel my pre-orders.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 21:37

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

moths posted:

The social component really can't be ignored either. Ted put SO MUCH work into his spell list and now you're making him play a regular dude because a gnoll wanted into camp last night? You're a lovely DM. What do you have against Ted, anyway?

Unless you want to deal with Ted's passive aggressively barbs over his laptop all night, he's going to get his stupid spells.

I dunno, I'd say it's important that players at your table should be able to play. And it's legit that Ted should want to use the poo poo he built his character around.

Don't blame Ted, blame the lovely way the game handles spellcasting.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2014 16:08

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

LongDarkNight posted:

Good news!

Vampires and Stirges just reduce your max HP.

Oh for gently caress's sake.

What's this from, btw? Please tell me it's an early thing and there is not really stat damage. Please?

# ¿ Jul 8, 2014 03:30

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

zachol posted:

Stat damage Makes Sense and is an elegant representation overall.

Now, as a mechanic as found in 3e and (probably) 5e, bleh, but I feel like if you're going to have stats you might as well also throw in stat damage and figure out a way to make it work.
One nice way would be to have far fewer things dependent on calculations involving stats.

Here's how you make it work.

You apply debuffs to attack and damage rolls - the derived numbers actually used in play - and leave the stats the gently caress alone.

The game doesn't need yet more ways to bypass hit points.

LongDarkNight posted:

Secret Monster Manual circa 06/2014

Well poo poo. Late addition, or always been there?

e: and haha, one of these dudes means a peasant village dies and the entire world gets turned into shadows just like in 3e.

dwarf74 fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Jul 8, 2014

# ¿ Jul 8, 2014 03:41

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

This may sound weird coming from a dude who's not that into 5e, but this is seriously the most negative +thread I've ever seen on SA and I can't tell if I'm in TG or DDRD when I read it. :eng99:

# ¿ Jul 14, 2014 21:59

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Father Wendigo posted:

Some of us still have a really foul taste left in out mouth from the playtests, and not much of what we've seen so far indicates it's going to be drastically changed. Since they're pulling the ~~bullshit~~ cheeky strategy of saying the product's entire lifespan is essentially a beta test (We're using build 0.1 according to Basic), we might as well pinpoint what breaks down and doesn't work.

Squeaky wheel gets the oil, right?

I know, but there's a whole loving "bitch about elf games but mostly 5e" thread in DDRD/Imp Zone. I think it's cool that people are legit interested in 5e, even if I'm not one of them, and holy poo poo a constructive thread like 4e and Pathfinder have (and keep in mind, Pathfinder is even more terrible than 5e) might not be too crazy.

# ¿ Jul 14, 2014 22:48

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Father Wendigo posted:

Have you read the Pathfinder thread lately? It's been (1)laughing because even the Paizo forums think the new Arcanist class is broken and the overly defensive response by the Devs, (2) laughing because they're hyping the release of a book that promises fixes for the worst classes (and also Wizards because why not), and (3) arguing over how to make the game not implode too terribly for a few more levels beyond 6.

Man, I need to read the pf thread more...

# ¿ Jul 15, 2014 02:44

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Lord Twisted posted:

I want something more focused on roleplay and not hideously slow combats like 4e. The basic ruleset seemed cool and fairly simple. However I saw people talking about Pathfinder - how easy is that to pick up seeming as me and my players have only ever played 4e? Is it cheaper/less complex/better supported?

We mainly play over Roll20 so that would factor in.

Does it have necromancer player characters...?

You're much better off with 5e or 13th Age than Pathfinder. Much, much, much better off.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2014 16:40

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

DalaranJ posted:

Hold on, what? This was a part of the game that I thought Next would surely improve over 3rd/4th. What took so long?

First characters always take longer. But if you just pick pre-set equipment, it goes pretty fast.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2014 17:05

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Oh lordy. Just got the starter set.

Spells in stat blocks need to die in a fire. There's too drat many monsters with them.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2014 22:49

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

MonsterEnvy posted:

3? Because there only appear to be 3 and two of them are just Wizards.

Yes, 3/15 or whatever is too drat many. Hell, 1 is too drat many.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2014 23:44

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Covok posted:

What exactly do you mean by "spells in stat blocks?" Are you referring to the monster simply having spells or how it's formatted?

It's bare lists of spells, the same you'd find with a monster in AD&D 1e without any improvements.

The kind where I need to borrow a PHB or keep some spell reference open to run them properly.

I kinda expected it for the NPCs, although I still think it's terrible. But when I see a monster like the Flameskull casting spells, it sets off warning bells.

MonsterEnvy posted:

It's Personally not a big deal to me (If you don't memorize them you can always write them down as well) as the ones in the starter set have pretty simple spells that are rather easy to remember. Besides there won't be nearly as many monsters with spells in the statblock as their used to be.

Then I am happy for you.

It's pretty much a deal-breaker for me.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2014 00:59

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

dichloroisocyanuric posted:

I agree with almost all of this but I also have a few questions (for anyone to answer.)

Firstly, how is the math hosed? Not in a "it looks fine to me!" sort of way, but in a "I haven't taken a closer look, what are you guys finding wrong with it so I can keep a look out?" sort of way.

Secondly, I'm here because, like many others in this thread I'm sure, I want to play a D&D fantasy game because the system is fun and I want to relive the highlights of AD&D or 3.5e but 3.5e is a mess and AD&D didn't age well and Pathfinder managed to be just as horrible as 3.5e in less than half the time. D&D Next is literally my lesser evil at the moment. I really feel you on the "this is a bad game but that doesn't mean you can't like it for what it is." Anyway, my question is, what are games like DnD that I will enjoy? Aside from 13th Age and Numenera because those are already on my need-to-check-out and not-for-me lists respectively.

I am not as down on it as most of the folks here, even though I find some things pretty terrible and am in no rush to run it.

If you are looking for a modern D&D that's not as bad as 3.x/PF, but still adheres to "tradition" pretty closely, then 5e fits the bill. It's almost literally a cleaned up and simplified 3.x with smaller numbers across the board. It also just might surprise us when the Big 3 come out. (hahah, no it won't)

"D&D 5e: It could be worse, I guess."

# ¿ Jul 16, 2014 03:02

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Ferrinus posted:

Are you nuts? It cuts your weak saves in half. It'd give a fighter some kind of reistance against hold person and otherwise trivially effective disablers. Concentration checks are Constitution saves.

Oh for gently caress's sake

treeboy posted:

War Caster allows you to cast a spell as a reaction in place of your Attack of Opportunity *and* gives you advantage on concentration, *and* allows you to hold a shield or weapon in both your hands and still cast spells.

# ¿ Jul 21, 2014 14:57

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Concentration is a serious attempt to balance spellcasters.

Now, here's a bunch of ways to bypass that balance!

# ¿ Jul 21, 2014 15:03

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

quote:

@Brail4 : what would the action sequence be like for sheathing one weapon,drawing another,and attacking?Is that all 1 action?
@mikemearls : yeah - the intent is to avoid punishing players for that stuff by charging an action
@vikke064 : Inhttp://media.wizards.com/downloads/dnd/DnDBasicRules(PrinterFriendly).pdf#page=70 … it seems you only get strictly one interaction, either sheathing or drawing a weapon.
@mikemearls : DM is free to make a call, based on the situation

# ¿ Jul 21, 2014 17:38

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Mexican Deathgasm posted:

5E has been super fun, I've been running a game since the first playtest was released, we play 6-8 hours every Saturday.

Cool. What versions have you been using? The leaked alpha? How's it holding up at high levels?

# ¿ Jul 22, 2014 14:08

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

ProfessorCirno posted:

I think it's more assumed that people here have generally played 4e, and those who like 4e are just gonna keep playing that, so game suggestions are for people who didn't like enough things about 4e.

Yep, I'm sticking with 4e, myself.

# ¿ Jul 22, 2014 19:05

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

So let's talk about the hour long short rests.

Still seems to me just another way to gently caress over... Well, anything that's not a Daily spellcaster.

4e's 5 minutes was easy, but an hour? We're getting into some serious fiat and/or strictly defined random encounter territory, here, with defined rates. When's the last time you rolled for random encounters outside a retro clone?

I'll repost a thing from ENWorld. Apologies/greetings if this is a goon.

Capricia posted:

You're right that longer short rests make for more of a resource management minigame, but the problem is that if you only have 1 or 2 short rests a day when you're having 4 or 6 encounters, then those classes are coping with vastly fewer resources than the other classes that rely on daily or at-will abilities. At level 4, you can have a situation of a cleric being able to pick and choose between 7 different daily abilities and cast them in any combination 7 times, plus the benefit of their channel divinity encounter ability. A fighter in the same boat has 2 encounter abilities. Preserve Life is a far better encounter power than Second Wind, and Hold Person or Spiritual or Bless or any number of other spells AND the flexibility in casting those spells is a hell of a lot better than Action Surge's ability to make another attack. But assume they're equal. Hell, assume that 1st level spells aren't as valuable as making an extra attack on your turn, say they have only half the value. Say that the cantrips are absolutely worthless.

That means that the fighter starts with 2 points a day and gets 2 more each short rest. The cleric starts with (4 1st level spells, 3 2nd level, and Channel Divinity) 6 points each day and gets 1 more every short rest. In order for this resource minigame to make sense, then after five shorts rests, the fighter has 12 points to the Cleric's 11. Anything fewer than that and the fighter gets fewer points. Any more and the advantage of being able to keep going after a short rest starts to pay off.

If you have 2 rests a day, the fighter has 6 points to the cleric's 8. That means that even with all these assumptions--cantrips don't matter, 1st level spells aren't as good as attacking, action surge can compete with abilities that simply break the rules of the game--the resource tacking and decision minigame is busted.

That's not to say that 2-minute short rests are going to fix everything. Definitely not. All I'm saying is that the design on the short rests is kicking some classes when they're down. You're giving the players the option of "I'll give you 100 dollars a week, whether you work one day or seven" vs "I'll pay you 15 dollars a day, but you'll work between one and seven days." Sure, getting 15 dollars a day means that you're getting 5 extra dollars a week than the other guy, but that's ONLY if you get to work each day. And your seven days of work is still only slightly edging out the other guy's one day of work. Which sounds like the better job?

# ¿ Jul 23, 2014 03:57

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

FRINGE posted:

Well we wont agree, but we apparently play with different kinds of people.

Its also a very minor thing, which was my main point. It really seems like that specific one would fall into the "who cares" bucket.

Pretty much, an hour long short rest pushes recovery after a fight into "maybe" instead of "certainly," and gets heavily dependent on either fiat or random encounter timers.

The issue is that "short rest" abilities are substantially weaker (and/or less plentiful) than daily resources, since there's an understanding that they can be used several times per day. With shorter rests, this is a sensible conclusion. With hour long short rests, it's not.

dwarf74 fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Jul 23, 2014

# ¿ Jul 23, 2014 13:51

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Xelkelvos posted:

Much of the contention I've seen with 4e was about how the abilities and powers up to entire classes looked or felt too samey, though I think that may be as a result of the mechanical transparency of everything where two things that are technically and effectively different appear similar or identical.

Unfortunately, I've not had much live play with 4e to accurately make such assessments given my swearing off of most things D&D and d20.

Clerics and Wizards in 1e through 3e both use the same mechanics for casting their spells. Would you ever mistake one for the other?

# ¿ Jul 24, 2014 13:17

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

slydingdoor posted:

There's an Inspiration mechanic now that gives a floating advantage "when you play out your personality traits, give in to the drawbacks presented by a flaw or bond, and otherwise portray your character in a compelling way."

Those are the suggested criteria for getting it. Pretty sure it's meant to replace playing chicken/DM handwaving/killing the PC described above.

Yeah, 5e is actually the first edition equipped to handle it, to its credit.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2014 14:51

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Jack the Lad posted:

A Wizard can also take 2 levels of Fighter to be able to cast a spell, action surge, cast a spell.

Nope, only 1 spell (+ maybe a cantrip) per round.

It's not THAT hosed.

# ¿ Jul 28, 2014 17:20

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Jack the Lad posted:

Hm! I thought that was the case at first but when I checked in Basic I couldn't find it and figured they removed the limitation for whatever reason. Where's it at?

Hmm also. I only see it about bonus action spells (under casting times), so maybe it is that hosed!

# ¿ Jul 28, 2014 17:43

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Gort posted:

Are they definitely doing 3e-style multiclassing? That poo poo was awful.

Yes they are and yes it is.

Seriously, anyone who doesn't see 5e as basically 3e at this point is deluding themselves.

# ¿ Jul 28, 2014 19:42

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

thespaceinvader posted:

Yep.

E: it also bothers me that the fighter gets like, 5 pages and the spellcasters get more than a quarter of the book. But then, this edition really isn't FOR me.

Hear, hear.

Now if they actually LIMITED spellcasters rather than just giving them the whole drat spell list...

# ¿ Jul 30, 2014 22:57

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# ¿ Apr 19, 2024 13:29

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

ProfessorCirno posted:

Mearls hates the warlord.

This gets forgotten. But every time he's talked about the warlord, it's been with COMPLETE scorn. It's also the only core class not to get an e-version once Mearls took the helm.

Mearls hates the warlord.

Hahaha, look at the WoW babby trying to shout limbs back on!*

_{* please note, "sleeping it off" is an effective means of limb replacement, because adventurers are basically geckos.}

# ¿ Jul 31, 2014 06:06

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