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Writing! It's frequently said and widely accepted that the writing in videogames is not as good as that found in a book, or even a film. This is weird, because writing has been a part of the medium since not long after its inception. The original text adventure - Colossal Cave Adventure - was designed in 1976, and is nothing but writing. Even non-text games of that era show elements of writing, even if that writing is limited to the premise - the Space Invaders are invading! (Spoilers: we lose). So, if the writing in videogames has had the same forty years to improve as the rest of the medium, what's the deal? Why does it still suck? Does it still suck? Can it be as good as a book, or a film? Is it fair to compare these media and say that one is better or worse than the other? There's a lot of room for discussion and opinion here, but in-depth discussions of game writing traditionally don't happen much in the gaming community outside of some specific genres, even though story is an essential component of a huge majority of single-player games. There is, for example, no SA thread specifically dedicated to writing in videogames. What's that? This is one of those? Boy, that's meta. This thread is for discussion of all issues related to game writing. This is a spectacularly wide-ranging topic, so there should be plenty to talk about. However, it's important to note that everyone has a different depth of knowledge about writing, so with this OP I'll try to provide a bit of a primer so that we're all starting on the same springboard. What is videogame writing? This might sound like a stupid question, but it's not. When you hear the word "writing", your mind most likely jumps to one of several concepts. Let's use films as an example. Here are three films notable for good writing: Seven, Inglourious Basterds, and Shaun Of The Dead. All three of these films show evidence of great writing, but it's different in each case. Seven, for example, has an excellent, tightly-written plot which keeps you watching right up until the phenomenal payoff, which sticks with you for a while after the credits have rolled - but the dialogue is often a little stilted. Inglourious Basterds is driven purely by situation, tension and dialogue. It's a slow burn, and the plot actually doesn't really matter all that much, but it's a riveting watch. Shaun Of The Dead's plot and situation are both standard, boring zombie movie fare, but it excels in clever homage, satire, wordplay and witticism. The point I'm coming around to is that writing isn't narrowly defined. In a story-based videogame, nearly everything you come across has been written and designed. Take the original Tomb Raider. There's plot, and there's dialogue... and then there's that bit where you first slide down the side of the Sphinx and the camera suddenly draws way back and shows you just how tiny you are in comparison to the level. That wasn't a camera glitch, somebody wrote it with the intent of producing that effect. So, broadest definition: videogame writing is anything that attempts to convey an idea to the player. It's not just the plot of a game, or the dialogue, or the text logs you find - it's all three and more. Alright, but surely videogame writing is never going to be in the league of, say, a good book, or a movie, or a Japanese comic about sexy witch schoolgirls. This misconception is older than Grandma's toaster and we need to stop saying it, or it might come true. The fact is that we've been saying this about every new form of media since the Egyptians decided to try staining words onto paper instead of hammering them into the wall. When films came onto the scene, people lamented that they were intrinsically less worthwhile than books. For years people thought television was the idiot's opiate, and some still do. People thought that comic books were vulgar and couldn't be used to tell a story worth reading. We've been wrong every time and we're wrong this time. Comparing games to films is like comparing films to books. It's a fool's game. Both films and books can have fantastic writing, but you can't compare them with each other directly because they're a different medium and must use different methods to convey their stories. You've probably heard the phrase "the language of cinema" - the way in which films are shot to convey atmospheres and emotions that wouldn't be possible in, for example, a stage play, or even a book. This language has been developed and improved continuously throughout the history of cinema, and we're still discovering new techniques and storytelling methods. Nowadays, claiming a film couldn't ever be as good as a book would strike many people as a silly comparison - film is a totally different art form. Videogames are the same. They have their own language, which is still being developed. There is stuff that they can do that films and books can't (provide you with a choice! Ask for your opinion! Judge you by your actions!), and there is stuff that films and books can do that videogames usually can't (control pacing! Dictate the opinions of the protagonist! Be the subject of an interesting conversation with your dad!). Writers are still learning how to do things in this medium, and it's only lately that the audience for games with real, worthwhile story is starting to emerge. Now, with the advent of Steam and the indie game, more and more experimentation is being done in this art form. We've already seen major improvements in game storytelling in the past three years. In the next ten, we're going to see this improvement continue, just like it has with every other form of media. And one day we'll get our 2001: A Space Odyssey, our Watchmen, or our Breaking Bad. We're on our way already. OK, I'm convinced by your totally bulletproof argument. But I buy all the most popular videogames, and the stories all suck! Well, yeah, to an extent that's true. At the moment (and this is changing, if slowly), the big games that you've seen advertised on TV are mostly about spectacle, not story (and it's worthwhile to remember that spectacle isn't a bad thing). But recently, good writing has become much more important to media consumers in general - witness the success of True Detective, House Of Cards, and Fargo. This is already starting to bleed over into mainstream videogames, even if for now it's just casting Kevin Spacey in the new CoD. But yeah, at the moment, if you want good stories in games, more often than not you'll have to go looking for them. So, what should I look out for if I want to see some different ways in which games can have good writing? (This section is painfully incomplete because I am but a man. I will add good suggestions to this list as they are suggested and discussed in the thread.) Gone Home - If nothing else, this game certainly provokes a lot of debate. In Gone Home, you explore an empty house which is packed with detail - most everything can be picked up and examined, and further informs the story that you're being told. I like Gone Home, because it's a great example of a storytelling method that only videogames are capable of. Spec Ops: The Line - Another divisive game. Spec Ops starts off like any mediocre shooty war game, and then yanks the rug out from under you a couple of hours in and forces you to rethink things. The Stanley Parable - I'm just gonna stop saying that games are divisive because it seems like every game with a focus on writing splits people right down the middle. The Stanley Parable can be described as a collection of surreal comedic vignettes which explore and send up the mechanics and idiosyncracies of videogames. There's a lot to discover and think about, and behind the jokes the points being made are often pretty clever, even if the vignettes can be a little hit-and-miss. The Last Of Us - A good example of a well-written triple-A game. The Last Of Us is a solid enough action game, but the real draw is the development of the interpersonal relationship between Joel and Ellie, which is continually well-explored and has a powerful payoff. Mass Effect Trilogy - Whether Mass Effect is well-written is very debatable, but it's worth playing because the sheer amount of writing over the course of the three games is impressive, and keeping it reactive and influencable by the player (to whatever extent) is an impressive technical achievement. Alpha Protocol - The plot is your standard Hollywood spy thriller, but anyone who's played Alpha Protocol can tell you just how good the writing is. The whole game is massively reactive and Mike's decisions and attitudes can dramatically affect the outcome of the game. Every major character is well-realised with full backstories that you can discover, read up on, and even exploit. The Walking Dead - Some of the best videogame storytelling ever produced, Telltale's five-part Walking Dead series is the perfect zombie game - one with no shooting at all (well, almost none). Instead, the focus is on survival, decision-making and human relationships. The second season is in progress, and I haven't played it, but the first is almost universally critically acclaimed. Warning: this game will make you feel like poo poo and break your heart. Anything else I can check out? If you'd like to listen to videogame designers talk about writing, you could do worse than to listen to Idle Thumbs. The podcast is focused on general game design rather than specifically writing, but the cast members have worked on games such as The Walking Dead and Gone Home. It's also just a really good podcast about videogames in general. Seems a bit late to abandon this Q&A conceit now. Could you wrap up the OP somehow? Alright, I'm just about done, so now I hand over to everyone else. This thread is for discussion of writing in games, and games with good or bad writing. Basically if you can take the words "games" and "writing" and mash 'em together in a fun-sounding sentence, you can discuss that. That said, this is a topic that tends to incite lovely argument so there need to be a couple of ground rules. Don't just poo poo all over games you don't like - if you call something bad, justify it properly. We can call this the "Gone Home" rule. It's fine to criticise a game, but you need to qualify it with a good reason. What, specifically, didn't you like about it? What parts didn't work for you? If a game is divisive, that means some people really like it, so don't come in and say it sucks without qualifying, or you're just going to wind people up and cause a lovely argument. Don't fakepost - People have all sorts of weird, lovely opinions about videogames, so don't assume that you can post something incredibly dumb on purpose, and people will understand it and laugh. Someone will take you seriously and there will be an lovely argument. Don't get angry - you're a grown-up for christ's sake Crazy Catch-All: Don't start lovely arguments - Just... don't. You know how not to do that, right? Before you post anything, ask yourself the question "Am I starting a lovely argument?" and if you are don't post. Remember your ABC. Always Be Checking-whether-you-are-starting-a-lovely-argument-and-not-posting-if-you-are. I'll add more to this OP as needed and suggested. Please suggest good links if you know em, or anything important you feel I've missed, or disagree with anything I've written. Otherwise, discuss away!
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Jul 6, 2014 03:22
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Man, I just dunno. The last thread lost so much steam from it being closed, can we really talk about bad video game stories like we did before?
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Jul 6, 2014 03:24
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Can we talk about how much Dragon Ball Z Budokai 3 owns?
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Jul 6, 2014 03:28
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I feel like the works of both Ice Pick Lodge and Yasumi Matsuno should be brought up for discussion
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Jul 6, 2014 03:29
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i literally do not understand these forums at all any more
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Jul 6, 2014 03:37
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Roger Tangerines posted:i literally do not understand these forums at all any more you were an idiot for posting that thread in the first place and now it's time to reap the whirlwind
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Jul 6, 2014 03:38
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Roger Tangerines posted:i literally do not understand these forums at all any more You aren't allowed to like video games, everything is poo poo garbage, unless it is Dark Souls. Hail Dark Souls, please take me away to Lordran with your sublime gameplay and nuanced storytelling, may the casuals burn in your unending fire, amen. Dark Souls 2 is also acceptable. Maybe Mario Kart, only the Bowser NIGGA parts though.
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Jul 6, 2014 03:42
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Roger Tangerines posted:i literally do not understand these forums at all any more
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Jul 6, 2014 03:43
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Roger Tangerines posted:i literally do not understand these forums at all any more Yeah I dont get it either, where was league of legends on your list
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Jul 6, 2014 03:43
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Video game writing is an oxymoron
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Jul 6, 2014 03:44
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Oxxidation posted:you were an idiot for posting that thread in the first place and now it's time to reap the whirlwind Also if your gonna make a thread about video game writing (dont) you should know what good video game writing is (dont becuz its almost all garbage)
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Jul 6, 2014 03:47
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Endorph posted:you made a sorta dumb thread and some people made fun of you for it i guess i don't understand what specifically was dumb enough to invite that massive four page threadshit and then this identical thread. this seems like a lot of blowback for a not-very-good thread
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Jul 6, 2014 03:48
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Roger Tangerines posted:i guess i don't understand what specifically was dumb enough to invite that massive four page threadshit and then this identical thread. this seems like a lot of blowback for a not-very-good thread Lol
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Jul 6, 2014 03:49
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it wasn't really that dumb but a lot of people like to make fun of dudes who are super invested into video game stories and your op was just kinda silly. like you listed mass effect for no reason other than 'uhhh it has lots of writing' not to mention its just kind of a tired subject in general. i cry at jrpg endings because im a big dumb baby and get super invested in the dumb anime characters and even i dont want to have a discussion about video game writing.
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Jul 6, 2014 03:50
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I mean I like a good story in my game as much as anyone, but if you can't make a fun game then fart.
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Jul 6, 2014 03:50
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Roger Tangerines posted:i guess i don't understand what specifically was dumb enough to invite that massive four page threadshit and then this identical thread. this seems like a lot of blowback for a not-very-good thread every single games thread ever made has a contingent of nerds arguing over why its writing is/was good/bad because everyone who has ever existed on the internet for any span of time measurable by human instruments fancies themselves an Undiscovered Master Writer despite none of them actually qualifying you posting a thread to compartmentalize such conversation was therefore unadvisable
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Jul 6, 2014 03:50
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Roger Tangerines posted:i guess i don't understand what specifically was dumb enough to invite that massive four page threadshit and then this identical thread. this seems like a lot of blowback for a not-very-good thread 
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Jul 6, 2014 03:50
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I'm not real sure what's going on in this thread, but I'm an actual salaried game writer. If you want to know anything about the job itself or the mechanics of game writing, I can probably help.
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Jul 6, 2014 03:52
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Zombie Samurai posted:I'm not real sure what's going on in this thread, but I'm an actual salaried game writer. If you want to know anything about the job itself or the mechanics of game writing, I can probably help.
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Jul 6, 2014 03:53
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Endorph posted:How many episodes of Firefly are you contractually obligated to watch? All of them. Managers have to get a Joss Whedon quote physically tattooed on their body.
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Jul 6, 2014 03:55
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Endorph posted:How many episodes of Firefly are you contractually obligated to watch? Follow up- what is your favorite anime, and why is it evangelion?
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Jul 6, 2014 03:55
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I think the writing in L.A. Noire is very good and is one of the only cinematic style modern games that I thought was really engaging and had me suspending my disbelief multiple times.
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Jul 6, 2014 03:56
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E PLURIBUS ANUS posted:Follow up- what is your favorite anime, and why is it evangelion? I'm glad you asked, it's...gently caress. Because after watching it you never have to come up with an original character ever again.
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Jul 6, 2014 03:56
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games as art more like games as fart am i right guys
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Jul 6, 2014 03:56
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Roger Tangerines posted:i guess i don't understand what specifically was dumb enough to invite that massive four page threadshit and then this identical thread. this seems like a lot of blowback for a not-very-good thread Why did you forget to mention earthbound.
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Jul 6, 2014 04:03
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Black baby Goku telling dudes not to fakepost lol. I feel writing game lore is a lot harder than a book, because a book leaves everything to your imagination. In a game, or movie for that matter, you have to not just describe it, but hope your team can accurately create what you feel the best vision for the material is. Gaming adds the third hurdle of making all of that stuff interactive as well. Mass effect I think is an example of a well realized videogame story, because despite its quality it did a lot of work to create a believable world as well as any 14.99 paperback Drew Kapwhatever wrote. I like it as much as darling Morrowind in that respect. I'd say the first step is creating your story and the gameplay boundaries in unison but until we find a more engaging way to implement human interaction than shooting dudes in the face (with the occasional 30 minute cutscene pondering the morality of such), we're limited to that or waggling the right analog stick in Heavy Rain. David Cage $60 20 hour paperbacks.
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Jul 6, 2014 04:15
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I am so happy BBG is back
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Jul 6, 2014 04:16
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i want my writing in the big titty anime dating sim to be...more proustish
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Jul 6, 2014 04:21
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Joyce, Wallace, James, Palahniuk, Spencer, Avalone.... all the greats
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Jul 6, 2014 04:22
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Ulysses, Infinite Jest, Bioshock Infinite
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Jul 6, 2014 04:22
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Octodad. Towerfall Ascension. Mercenary Kings. Don't Starve. Resogun. Transistor.
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Jul 6, 2014 04:30
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i enjoy consuming a nice big fat video game story
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Jul 6, 2014 04:34
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Game writing done right http://youtu.be/X84Nx_LGDKE
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Jul 6, 2014 04:36
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Spec Ops: The Line was posted on this forum with the SERIOUS thread tag, because it was a serious game.
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Jul 6, 2014 04:40
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Zombie Samurai posted:I'm not real sure what's going on in this thread, but I'm an actual salaried game writer. If you want to know anything about the job itself or the mechanics of game writing, I can probably help. How many scripts for knock-offs of popular action films did you have rejected by movie studios until you finally retreated to writing for games?
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Jul 6, 2014 04:41
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 Spec Ops: The Line
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Jul 6, 2014 04:42
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Zombie Samurai posted:I'm not real sure what's going on in this thread, but I'm an actual salaried game writer. If you want to know anything about the job itself or the mechanics of game writing, I can probably help. What games have you worked on?
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Jul 6, 2014 04:42
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Anyway the best writing in video games these days is probably in Corruption of Champions or something like that.
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Jul 6, 2014 04:45
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I know Spec Ops is a pretentious video game retelling of Apocalypse Now/Heart of Darkness but I still liked it anyway because not enough video games that admit American military intervention turns everything it touches to poo poo with no upside. Like seriously screw the Russians or North Koreans or Chinese or whatever, if you want an evil army to provide random dudes for you to shoot by the truckload, the US military has a track record as good as any for loving up random countries and killing scads of innocent people
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Jul 6, 2014 04:55
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Pornographic Memory posted:I know Spec Ops is a pretentious video game retelling of Apocalypse Now/Heart of Darkness but I still liked it anyway because not enough video games that admit American military intervention turns everything it touches to poo poo with no upside. Why do you want a video game to tell you that
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Jul 6, 2014 04:56
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